AIM Chat about Smashball. *WARNING WALL O' TEXT*

[Jaffar]

[19:42:07] DarkLeon: Do you care if I play with Smash Balls on low?
[19:42:17] JaffarDS: yes
[19:42:28] DarkLeon: Why?
[19:42:40] JaffarDS: because smash balls and items are cheap
[19:43:18] DarkLeon: I like playing wtih smash balls because I find it fun and its a innovation ._.
[19:43:49] JaffarDS: I'll only play with them if I'm not being serious in smash
[19:43:58] JaffarDS: which is only like 15% of the time
[19:44:29] DarkLeon: *facepalm*
[19:44:41] JaffarDS: ...
[19:45:13] JaffarDS: It's cheap, admit it
[19:45:19] DarkLeon: No.
[19:45:26] JaffarDS: I could win a match just by getting the smash ball
[19:45:41] JaffarDS: woah O_O
[19:45:59] DarkLeon: Not relaly.
[19:46:02] DarkLeon: You stlil have to do damage
[19:46:06] JaffarDS: ...
[19:46:09] DarkLeon: You still have to basically fight
[19:46:13] JaffarDS: ok so
[19:46:16] DarkLeon: the smash ball is just a little extra, like a guaranteed KO
[19:46:55] JaffarDS: dude
[19:47:03] JaffarDS: Marth's FS
[19:47:18] DarkLeon: Oh yes go to the ONLY OHKO fs
[19:47:20] DarkLeon: to bomb them all.
[19:47:27] JaffarDS: sure some FS' do nothing
[19:47:32] JaffarDS: but they're still stupid
[19:47:36] JaffarDS: because I can't damage you
[19:47:42] DarkLeon: Yes you can
[19:47:44] JaffarDS: no
[19:47:48] DarkLeon: You can damage me when I have a FS
[19:47:51] DarkLeon: And you can evade the FS
[19:47:58] JaffarDS: when you /have/ it
[19:47:59] DarkLeon: Side step / Roll/ Air Dodge ftw
[19:48:08] JaffarDS: I mean, when you're USING it
[19:48:08] DarkLeon: I've dodged lots of FS' this way
[19:48:11] DarkLeon: <_<
[19:48:20] DarkLeon: You can't relaly get out of a combo in JUS (Jump Ultimate Stars) either
[19:48:24] DarkLeon: but do you complain about supports?
[19:48:29] JaffarDS: wth?!
[19:48:35] DarkLeon: Its something you can't get out of
[19:48:38] DarkLeon: So you are gonna complain about it?
[19:48:39] JaffarDS: that's not the same concept
[19:48:50] JaffarDS: I can still do damage moron
[19:48:51] JaffarDS: and
[19:48:53] DarkLeon: And there is only like
[19:48:56] DarkLeon: 2 or 3 combo FS's
[19:49:03] DarkLeon: Great Aether is one
[19:49:11] JaffarDS: it doesn't do a crapload of damage like FS can
[19:49:20] DarkLeon: A support combo can be a OHKO ._.
[19:49:28] DarkLeon: But anyways
[19:49:35] DarkLeon: There is only like 2 or 3 Combo FS's
[19:49:41] JaffarDS: so?
[19:49:44] DarkLeon: All the rest or like 1 hit
[19:49:46] DarkLeon: and
[19:50:08] DarkLeon: Every FS(cept transformations and beams) have a 1 hit start up
[19:50:13] DarkLeon: You dodge that 1st hit, t hen the FS is gone
[19:50:18] DarkLeon: which it isn't that hard to dodoge ._.
[19:50:22] JaffarDS: .
[19:50:29] JaffarDS: you still have to dodge them
[19:50:38] DarkLeon: You have to dodge getting hit with an attack too
[19:50:40] DarkLeon: so your point is?
[19:50:52] DarkLeon: Gonna cry over having to do a couple extra dodges?
[19:50:56] JaffarDS: a normal attack can't kill you like an FS can
[19:51:03] JaffarDS: you're being an idiot right now
[19:51:16] DarkLeon: AN FS isn't a 100% guaranteed kill either
[19:51:37] JaffarDS: BUT IT CAN DO A LOT MORE DAMAGE IN A SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME THEN YOU CAN NORMALLY
[19:51:45] DarkLeon: <______<
[19:52:01] DarkLeon: And you can't just easily Dodge it?
[19:52:16] DarkLeon: I know you are gonna block me soon, I can already feel it
[19:52:19] JaffarDS: play with your smash balls for all I care. I won't be playing you
[19:52:21] JaffarDS: nah
[19:52:42] JaffarDS: ok
[19:52:44] JaffarDS: in that case
[19:52:50] JaffarDS: why not turn on all items?
[19:53:00] JaffarDS: I mean you could just /dodge/them
[19:53:11] DarkLeon: Sandbags You can't dodge
[19:53:19] DarkLeon: <_<

[19:53:20] DarkLeon: lul
[19:53:23] JaffarDS: .......
[19:53:28] DarkLeon: And most of the other items
[19:53:32] DarkLeon: are ********
[19:53:38] JaffarDS: Hammer?
[19:53:43] DarkLeon: Its ********
[19:53:44] DarkLeon: o_O
[19:53:45] JaffarDS: Smart Bomb
[19:53:55] DarkLeon: Smart bomb has like a 10% chance of being a dud
[19:53:57] DarkLeon: or exploding late
[19:54:05] JaffarDS: still can kill
[19:54:20] DarkLeon: Smash balls can't interupt comboes either
[19:54:25] DarkLeon: bob ombs/smart bombs can
[19:54:31] DarkLeon: if it spawns when you attac
[19:54:33] DarkLeon: *attack
[19:54:35] DarkLeon: then boomy
[19:54:46] JaffarDS: Do you go to smashboards by any chance?
[19:54:52] DarkLeon: No.
[19:55:24] DarkLeon: I go to Brawl boards, But I'm not a random troll idiot
[19:55:30] DarkLeon: My posts actually help people
[19:55:35] DarkLeon: On gfaqs I mean
[19:55:45] JaffarDS: you're trolling right now on AIM
[19:56:14] DarkLeon: By saying Smash Balls aren't bad?
[19:56:35] JaffarDS: all items are unnesscary from a professional standpoint
[19:57:32] DarkLeon: <_<
[19:57:46] JaffarDS: because guess what
[19:57:51] JaffarDS: THEY TAKE NO SKILL TO USE
[19:57:52] DarkLeon: All items / Half stages are unnesscary from that standpoint
[19:58:00] JaffarDS: yes, half the stages are
[19:58:03] DarkLeon: They take skill to dodge, they take skill to get before the other person
[19:58:10] JaffarDS: bahaha
[19:58:21] JaffarDS: they take no skill to *use*
[19:58:26] JaffarDS: I guess you read it wrong
[19:58:39] DarkLeon: Using Goes with Getting basically
[19:58:44] DarkLeon: And you can also knock them out of your opponent
[19:58:45] DarkLeon: <_
[19:58:45] JaffarDS: O_O
[19:58:52] DarkLeon: and
[19:58:53] DarkLeon: using them
[19:58:55] DarkLeon: requires set up
[19:59:02] JaffarDS: ........................................................................................
[19:59:12] DarkLeon: You can't just randomly have it and blast it out and hope to hit
[20:00:55] JaffarDS: Samus', Fox, Wolf, Falco, Pikachu, Sonic, Snake, Mario, Bowser, Ganodorf
[20:01:43] DarkLeon: bowser is a transformation
[20:01:52] DarkLeon: Ganondorf they need to be IIRC in front of you
[20:02:07] DarkLeon: Samus, just move in the opp direction (because it sucks you in)
[20:02:11] DarkLeon: Snake, is easy as heck to dodge)
[20:02:35] DarkLeon: Fox/Wolf/Falco, be a edge hogger (Jump off ledge then grab it again for invinicbility)
[20:02:51] DarkLeon: Snake/Pikachu...hmm...Sidestep/Air dodge a lot? I don't know here
[20:03:06] JaffarDS: You have got to be joking
[20:03:14] DarkLeon: What?
[20:03:26] JaffarDS: all this crap you're spewing out of your mouth
[20:03:32] JaffarDS: has to be just a complete joke
[20:03:32] DarkLeon: It works <_<
[20:03:33] DarkLeon: I've done it
[20:06:46] JaffarDS: then why do ALL the pros say they shouldn't be used in competitive play?
[20:07:05] DarkLeon: Because Pro's hate items with a passion for some reason.
[20:07:07] DarkLeon: *pros
[20:07:17] JaffarDS: why do they hate items?
[20:07:21] DarkLeon: And its a game, its mean tto be fun
[20:07:31] DarkLeon: a lil competitve I'll admit, but its mean tto be fun
[20:07:33] DarkLeon: *meant to
[20:08:04] JaffarDS: still haven't answered my second question
[20:08:20] DarkLeon: And they hate them because (I know you are just gonna say "LOL ROFL IDIOT" or something like that) they can't win with them <_<
[20:08:53] JaffarDS: why can't they win with them, THEY PROS?!
[20:09:13] JaffarDS: they're*
[20:09:24] DarkLeon: They are pros without items, not with.
[20:09:30] JaffarDS: ....
[20:09:36] JaffarDS: They've played with items before
[20:09:57] DarkLeon: Do they win quite often?
[20:10:16] JaffarDS: am I God?! Do I know ebarything?!
[20:10:29] DarkLeon: <_<

[21:27:41] JaffarDS: care to answer my question?
[21:29:21] DarkLeon: So you have no clue, so they could utterly lose with ittems?
[21:29:49] JaffarDS: it's not the point that they'll loose
[21:30:01] JaffarDS: it's the fact that it takes less skill to use them
[21:30:18] DarkLeon: It takes less skill to dodge more? I see
[21:30:33] JaffarDS: do you have a brain?
[21:30:37] JaffarDS: I said TO USE
[21:30:41] JaffarDS: not TO DODGE
[21:31:04] DarkLeon: Yes, but to evade them you need to dodge
[21:31:15] JaffarDS: yeah, but I never said that
[21:31:21] DarkLeon: And if you can't evade them, then you don't have skill
[21:31:34] DarkLeon: And I guess you thinK peach if for Nubs
[21:31:42] DarkLeon: Becuase of Turnip/BeamSaber/Bob-Omb Pick up
[21:31:46] JaffarDS: gah, I wonder what you got on the English section of the SAT
[21:32:10] DarkLeon: Typing is different then English.
[21:32:17] DarkLeon: Its all about key positions/Finger Positions
[21:32:23] JaffarDS: I'm starting to think you're illiterate
[21:32:27] JaffarDS: ...
[21:32:35] JaffarDS: blox'd
[21:32:42] DarkLeon: If I was illiterate I couldn't read rigth or type right
[21:32:43] DarkLeon: Stupid
[21:32:46] *** "DarkLeon" signed off at Sat Mar 22 21:32:46 2008.

Yeah, I know there's probably like 100 topics regarding this but I just want to see what you guys think regarding to what he said exactly. Now, I'm sure some of you agree with him but I just want a professional stance on what is wrong here and how to refute his arguements. Some things I know he says is wrong I'm just not quite sure what (like the whole dodging FS' and stuff)

 

[kr3wman]

Relaly...

I read all of it. Such...uselessness. Why do people argue like that on the internet with no real arguments?

 

[DoritoXI]

Let him believe what he wants, if he believes items and FS take skill then let him. Hes not gonna listen to anyone because of plain stubbornness. If something like this happens again , I would suggest not getting a big long argument. Refuse the match and block them if they bug you.

 

[Papapaint]

People like to play how they like to play. Luckily, smash allows that.

Now, both of you, kiss and make up.

 

[Supax]

Why does it matter how he wants to play? Maybe he isn't into competitive smash, no need to post a thread about it.. Why would you make fun of someone for playing a video game for fun like they were made to be played?

Sure, I don't agree with him because I'd rather play competitively, but it's up to him how he wants to play. If he came here and made a thread about how smashballs are the only way to go, I would argue it... But since he isn't, just let him be.

 

[Zevox]

Hes right, you know. Of course some items take skill to use - you can't just pick up a Mr Saturn or Beam Sword and suddenly auto-win the match (things like Timers or Starmen are another matter entirely, of course). And of course Final Smashes aren't insta-kills - every single one can be dodged, evaded, or countered in some way. Some easier than others, but its distinctly possible on all of them.

To answer the question you posed in that about why "pros" are against using items in spite of this, its because they're random. When and where they spawn, and which ones spawn, is utterly unpredictable and uncontrollable, thus they can give random advantage to an individual player, which is entirely independent of any skill the player may or may not have with their character or with the items.

Zevox

 

[Rorus Raz]

The POINT of a Final Smash is to get KO(s) easily. Skill comes in the actual getting of the Smash Ball (and some characters do require a brain to use their FS). It's not like a Hammer or easily grabbed item. So I agree with him there.

But Smash Balls, even on Low, appear way too often and the game becomes nothing but chasing the **** things around. To get their spawn rate low enough, I have turn on a ton of other items. I just don't see Smash Balls showing up in competitive. Too common for something so swingy.

 

[Calixto]

Have you ever watched two complete newbies to Smash go at it, tossing attacks at random when they are nowhere near their opponent, dodging for no apparent reason, killing themselves unnecessarily, forgetting they have an up b recovery, standing next to each other attacking in the wrong direction, etc?


That is what I feel when I read that snippet of what you call a conversation.

 

[Jaffar]

Why does it matter how he wants to play? Maybe he isn't into competitive smash, no need to post a thread about it.. Why would you make fun of someone for playing a video game for fun like they were made to be played?

Sure, I don't agree with him because I'd rather play competitively, but it's up to him how he wants to play. If he came here and made a thread about how smashballs are the only way to go, I would argue it... But since he isn't, just let him be.

Don't get me wrong, I play with items /sometimes/ but only for fun random games. What he's saying is that he wants it to be in the competitive metagame. I'm not really making fun of him actually (although there were certain points in the chat where I was) by making this thread. I just want to show him that the way he wants to play is not accepted generally by me and the majority of the smash community.

and lol @ almightypancake XD.

Don't worry, I will, just this same guy likes to argue with me over stupid stuff. :/

 

[milind4]

I think he's right when it comes to FSs. I mean, you can't get one just by touching it; you need to hit it multiple times. so you can't exactly get lucky and get it. and once you get it, it can still be knocked out of you with sufficient skill. And when the fs is those that can be used immediately, its still possible to dodge it. like someone said before, it might be harder for some, but it's still possible.

 

[milind4]

Don't get me wrong, I play with items /sometimes/ but only for fun random games. What he's saying is that he wants it to be in the competitive metagame.

where did he say that?

 

[Jaffar]

where did he say that?

I assumed he means that because of all the arguing he's doing and complaining. I want to play competitively in this game so I think that's why he was asking me.

I'll confirm if that's what he meant though.

 

[milind4]

i don't think he meant that.. or at least i didn't get the feeling that that's what he meant while i was reading it...

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I am kind of two faced on this. I believe it takes skill to get the Ball and execute it at the right time. But I don't like playing with it because its more of a burden than a saving grace to me.

-Onyx