Aggressive Ice

[Delphiki]

Okay, I have seen already several threads covering the changes from Melee to Brawl, the new CGs, and desynching. That is all well and good, and a worthy and fun use of time. Also, therein lie the possibilities for the **** combos we had in Melee.

But we're already making a dangerous mistake, by not focusing on the basics of our lovely little characters FIRST, and technical possibilities SECOND. In short: tactics over techniques. With this discussion thread I hope to remedy that problem a bit.

My first impressions of Brawl ICs was their lack of approaches. In Melee, I played an overaggressive Climbers which relied on desynchs, jab-cancels and grabs to get easy kills. But the ICs of Brawl have lost most aspects which allowed them to be played quickly and aggressively.

Because of this (and my inexperience), I was losing matches due to being either outspaced or outsped.


So the topic of discussion is simple:


What techniques and moves do you find useful to approach a defensive enemy?


I will use this first post to hold a little archive of different possible approaches, so that new players will have a place to feed their brains on new tactics.

 

[Delphiki]

Double posting, to avoid clutter in the main post.


One approach I thought up and later confirmed here, is the Squall. What I have heard is that lag has been decreased, and damage has been increased. But I was wondering how quickly it came out and how fast it moves side-to-side. Also, is it any faster is the air or on the ground?

It seems like you could use it to hit behind you out of your shield, and possibly combo into the kill. Any thoughts? I haven't been able to test any of this since I thought of it all.


Second, How about advancing Bairs? Knockback has been dropped along with range, but the idea of it still seems sound. My biggest problem so far though, is hitting characters who are short and have range. This happened to me against Pikachu and Olimar, who can easily avoid Bair and outspace most ground attacks. What do you guys think?

 

[Lightning Ice]

Down B has become much better for an approach because it deals decent damage now and knocks them back. It also doesn't have too much lagtime after it.

 

[Jellybelly]

I've noticed that squall hammer seems alot harder to get knocked out of, also if the last hammer hits your opponent they get launched quite high.

I really couldn't say until I get the game.

 

[Zoz0]

It was said in another thread the squall hammer has invinciblity frames now. I can't confirm this, since I don't have the game, but along with the decreased lag this move seems much improved as an approach.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

As said by previous climbers, it seems Squall is your best bet along with the DownB Blizzard. Blizzard should be hopped into to make Nana blizzard the same way right?

 

[pixcalcis]

Today 10:18 AM
Nitoheilapine As said by previous climbers, it seems Squall is your best bet along with the DownB Blizzard. Blizzard should be hopped into to make Nana blizzard the same way right?

yep...and it makes it slightly stronger as well

 

[Nasu]

From the videos that I watch, I haven't seen blizzard used that well offensively. It is great to stop a rush from someone who has higher percentages though .

 

[billythegoat]

For approach I like to simply dash forward and then shield grab. With brawl's new engine you are able to shield immedeatly out of a running animation. You will keep the forward motion while your shield is up, and when you hit A to grab you will use the standing grab so it will have less lag. The ideal situation is your opponant sees you charging forward and so they forward smash. You pull up your shield, and since you were just running towards them your forward momentum should match that caused by their smash attack allowing you to shield grab them. This approach is desimated if your opponent simply grabs instead of smashing. That is why I like to mix it up with running up-smashes.

 

[Som]

Icys might be more defensive now, then before with fewer/risker approach options. I general I like shield sliding, spot doge sliding, reversing your forward runs into back airs, using forward b like a shoryu (an invincible counter). blizzard sometimes as well.

 

[PB&J]

wow i didn't think that anybody else was using squall to approach,but me ....ive been playing brawl ever since the japan release and i found this the best apprach

 

[billythegoat]

So what is the opponents best move to use against shield sliding? It seems that they have 3 choices,1: simply attack the shield wich should get them shield grabbed;2: they grab you, this should allow your secondary climber to get a free smash attack,3:they retreat, nothing is acomplished for either one of you. So aren't the ice climbers even better at offens since they seem to have an un-punishable approach, or have I over looked one of the opponents options?

 

[Binx]

The approach isn't unpunishable because if they grab assuming its anything like melee they can throw without Nana having time to do anything like Falco's dthrow in melee, or Marth or Foxes forward throw.

I havn't played the game though so...

 

[ConF1ictz]

i played the game, and founf that the blizzard is a strong approach with shield sliding grab. this slows down an oppnent trying to retreat and give a smash oppertunity plus the fact that there have to either get smashed or grabbed(which is worse). i was also thinking. id the grab spike still as effective and usable?

 

[billythegoat]

Yes it is, to see some amazing uses of it I would suggest looking-up VirtualVoid on youtube. He has one of the best ice climbers I have ever seen.

 

[Delphiki]

F-throw Fair still meteors.

Also I'd like to point out that if Popo gets grabbed, YOU CAN'T CONTROL NANA. So blocking beats Squall. Not only can they just shieldgrab you if the conditions are right, but it's very easy to just Fair you or something. The IC's best bet is to use Squall, then space the hammers so only the edges are hitting, and you can avoid getting hit by some aerials.

 

[Lixivium]

I really need help with this. I have no idea how to approach people anymore.

I miss wavedashes and jab cancels.
Aerials STILL aren't good for approaches.
Why in the world would they nerf ice blocks???
Blizzard is not an approach. At best it only gets you a little closer to your opponent for spacing purposes.

I want to keep playing the IC's (in singles) but it's kind of demoralizing now that it's SO INCREDIBLY HARD to grab anyone who has the slightest clue what they're doing.

 

[Lightning Ice]

F-throw Fair still meteors.

Also I'd like to point out that if Popo gets grabbed, YOU CAN'T CONTROL NANA. So blocking beats Squall. Not only can they just shieldgrab you if the conditions are right, but it's very easy to just Fair you or something. The IC's best bet is to use Squall, then space the hammers so only the edges are hitting, and you can avoid getting hit by some aerials.

Are you sure that you can't control Nana when you are grabbed? Because I've had multiple times where Nana would downsmash when I smashed the C stick downwards after a grab. One time she even used an Ice block right next to them because I accidentally hit B when I was in a grab.

Edit: I'd also like to note that I recently played a very campy Diddy player and I found that spaced Down Bs, Ice blocks, and using Squall hammer to quickly punish attacks helps make your opponents much more aggressive and likely to get shieldgrabbed.

 

[Nintendude]

I use a lot of shield approaches. One particularly safe one is dash, shield, jab. I don't think jabs set up for anything in Brawl but it's a good way to at least get a few hits in. It works well with forward-tilt too. I think the main way to beat campy opponents is to put some pressure on them and make them attack, so this can sometimes do that.

Short-hop blizzards and squalls are good too, as mentioned before.

 

[Jellybelly]

If Popo is grabbed I just use the c stick and Nana uses a nice f-smash. In fact one my favourite tricks at the moment is grabbing my opponents and c sticking Nana, it normally ends in them flying offscreen.

I like blizzard far more than I did in melee, it doesn't leave you as open as it did before.

 

[Delphiki]

I could be wrong about controlling Nana while in a grab. From what I've seen, I couldn't control her. Maybe she can only be controlled while being grabbed, but not while being thrown. *shrug*