After more than 4 months, how is Smash 4 competitively?

[ChikoLad]

If Melee/PM is like basketball or football, and Brawl is like chess or pool, then Smash 4 is like playing football while playing chess...

...Ok that last bit doesn't make complete sense without more context, but what I mean is - people go on about speed all of the time like that's the only thing that's fun to watch, but a game doesn't need to be fast or even all that flashy to be a competitive sport. Football and basketball are fun to watch for an adrenaline filled thrill. Chess and Pool are fun to watch because they're suspenseful and one well calculated move can make or break the match. Plus, the audience can actually participate in a way, as things aren't going too fast, so they can think of what can happen next, or what the best move might be.

Melee/PM, to me, is like football and basketball. It's a quick, mindless thrill for the audience.
Brawl is like Chess or Pool. The audience can easily keep up with what's going on and it's more a battle of wits than a battle of reflexes.

Smash 4 strikes a balance. Some match ups feel entirely one way or the other in terms of the speed/strategy/tactics split, while others feel like a balance to me. Maybe that's because I main Rosalina and she covers every kind of playstyle in the game and encourages switching them up when appropriate, but I know it applies in other cases too. A Sheik VS Sonic match, for example, would be very fast and frenetic. A Bowser VS Mega Man match, would be much more a battle of wits, though.

Smash 4 is just as competitive as Melee. It's just not competitive in quite the same way all of the time. And Brawl pretty much was always the polar opposite of Melee.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

It's still pretty distant to be on-par with Melee/PM since both games already have quite some history, but it's on the way. We must give more time to see how it's going, but the game seems to be more and more refreshing at each patch.

 

[JoeR]

This game will continue to evolve into one of the most balanced and loved fighting games of all time and Nintendo can help that along by providing patches where necessary (see nerfing top character Diddy).

 

[Floati]

They actually nerfed air dodges from Brawl.

True (spaced Brawl's), but I'm still of the opinion they are too powerful and hurt offstage play. Most characters shouldn't feel comfortable recovering against opposition.

 

[Paxadin]

I find Smash 4 to be the best smash to date.
Sure, we don't have the same amount of techniques as the previous installment right now, but I feel like this game has a lot of potential.
It's the most fun I've had, the competitive cast is more diversified and lots of, what I believe to be, better mechanics.

Sorry if I rub off as being rude while saying this but, I sincerely hope that Smash 4 overtakes Melee in competitive play.

I personally feel like Melee being removed from the spotlight is long due, for reasons such the game being new, more polished, more balanced, and simply for the fact that it would show Sakurai and his team how much we appreciate his countless efforts to give us the best smash games possible. They've done an amazing job with this one and I'd hate to see Melee overshadow it like it did for Brawl (although Brawl had its very obvious flaw).

EDIT: typos

 

[DMTroop]

The OP seems to contradict itself with its poll; it's implied Brawl is a bad game competitively, isn't that Melee/PM bias?

On-Topic: I don't really think you can objectively qualify whether a game is "competitive" or which smash is the best "competitively", especially in the fighting game genre, they're all equally competitive by the very nature of the type of game it is. The objective is to win, that is what it means to be competitive. Now, whether or not a game is as deep or as engaging as its predecessors can be argued.

Personally I don't feel Smash 4 is, it feels like the barest of any of them. Meele/PM is about having a good mix of tech and mental skill; testing your reaction speed, timing and decision making. Techniques like wave/dash dancing and l-cancelling help promote offensive play while these are defensively balanced out by crouch cancelling, powershielding, and edge hogging. Brawl has a heavier emphases on decision making (why its so slow) and defenseive play b/c of its mechanics. Due to its hitstun (or lack thereof) follow ups and combos aren't guranteed, this in conjunction with the airdodge getting buffed and the removal of offensive techs like WD, DD, and l-cancels makes it play this way (floatier physics didn't help either). As a result, you have a game that makes hard reads and offensive play in general more risky, so approaches generally boil down whether or not you can "poke" the other person first and punish harder.

Smash 4 is mostly the same except you can combo again, but its more difficult to punish those who overextend themselves due to edge-trumping, roll and shield buffs, as well as rage. Characters also feel less dynamic and more flow-charty b/c of the combos no longer being dynamic. Overall, I don't feel like Smash 4 has added anything mechanically that adds depth to the overall experience compared to the other titles... But it's still great fun w/ friends and family!

tl;dr Smash 4 is a great game, but it isn't a deep one.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

The OP seems to contradict itself with its poll; it's implied Brawl is a bad game competitively, isn't that Melee/PM bias?

I never said that Brawl was bad myself, but it's the most panned from a competitive aspect, personally, I didn't find the game all that bad. Also, I'd argue that edge trumping actually enhances off-stage play, since you can chase the person trumped for an easy spike or something similar.

 

[PlayerXIII]

Alrighty then. Brawl is a better competitive game than Smash 4 because it has stuff to give it depth. Advanced tech makes a big difference. With advanced tech, it creates new options that you have to think about. You can only go so far without tech. There is a LOT more thought that goes into Brawl than Smash 4. Smash 4 requires much less thought than any other Smash game. It rewards bad players with mechanics like ledge trumping and rage, not to mention how many free combos there are.

I fail to see how Brawl has any more depth than Smash 4. Keep in mind techniques aren't always good: in a way, you can call hitstun cancelling a technique and it was horrible to the point it killed the game for me when my friends figured it out. In Brawl, you can get punished for landing a solid hit on an opponent. That shouldn't ever happen. I hit you - I should be able to either go further with another move or fall back. Not be hit while I'm recovering from my own move.

Also, I have to disagree on how ledge trumping and rage are mechanics for bad players. Indeed, they do make it much easier on them but trust me when I sometimes let my opponents rack percentage on purpose just so I can kill them at 110% with Mewtwo's up throw when they didn't expect it. Or just tank with Shulk's Shield and enjoy the massive knock back.

In my opinion, edgehogging was completely mindless. Opponent is off the stage -> jump on ledge at a precise moment that his muscle memory at this point. Completely shut down characters with bad recoveries even further. Ledge trumping instead encourages you to go after your opponent offstage or *gasp* mind games! Let your opponent grab the ledge, trump and punish. Next time, fake going for the trump so they get on stage ASAP and punish them because the rush makes them more predictable. I'm maining Ness this game and, honestly, if it weren't for the new ledge mechanics, he'd be dead. It'd be so easy to shut down his recovery it wouldn't even be funny. By introducing ledge trumping, you introduce more exciting gameplay and more character variety. Just how can that be a bad mechanic?

Also tripping. Let me hear about how you lost that tournament match because you failed going for the punish and got punished instead because of the idiocy that is tripping. I applaud the Brawl community for being able to make it competitive with that thing. I would have given up.

 

[Malkasaur]

I fail to see how Brawl has any more depth than Smash 4. Keep in mind techniques aren't always good: in a way, you can call hitstun cancelling a technique and it was horrible to the point it killed the game for me when my friends figured it out. In Brawl, you can get punished for landing a solid hit on an opponent. That shouldn't ever happen. I hit you - I should be able to either go further with another move or fall back. Not be hit while I'm recovering from my own move.

Also, I have to disagree on how ledge trumping and rage are mechanics for bad players. Indeed, they do make it much easier on them but trust me when I sometimes let my opponents rack percentage on purpose just so I can kill them at 110% with Mewtwo's up throw when they didn't expect it. Or just tank with Shulk's Shield and enjoy the massive knock back.

In my opinion, edgehogging was completely mindless. Opponent is off the stage -> jump on ledge at a precise moment that his muscle memory at this point. Completely shut down characters with bad recoveries even further. Ledge trumping instead encourages you to go after your opponent offstage or *gasp* mind games! Let your opponent grab the ledge, trump and punish. Next time, fake going for the trump so they get on stage ASAP and punish them because the rush makes them more predictable. I'm maining Ness this game and, honestly, if it weren't for the new ledge mechanics, he'd be dead. It'd be so easy to shut down his recovery it wouldn't even be funny. By introducing ledge trumping, you introduce more exciting gameplay and more character variety. Just how can that be a bad mechanic?

Also tripping. Let me hear about how you lost that tournament match because you failed going for the punish and got punished instead because of the idiocy that is tripping. I applaud the Brawl community for being able to make it competitive with that thing. I would have given up.

This is just, ugh, I don't even know where to start, but I'll try my best to explain.
First of all, you cannot defend rage, especially like that. Rage rewards players FOR GETTING HIT. You should be trying NOT to get hit. You said that in Brawl, you can get punished for landing a solid hit on an opponent. What do you think Smash 4 does with rage? The person who's getting outplayed is getting rewarded while the person who is doing good is getting punished. In a way, its WORSE than hitstun cancelling. It's putting the losing player at an advantage. And you also gave a perfectly good reason why rage is a bad mechanic: It can be abused.
Edgehogging was not pointless. You are an idiot. Characters with bad recoveries have them for a reason. Ever heard if Falco in Melee? He was what you would call a glass cannon. He hits hard, really hard, but you get him offstage and he's gonna die. Ledge trumping doesn't encourage you to go offstage because of how broken recovering is. If I go offstage to try to kill them, it doesn't matter how many times I hit them, because I can't go far enough without dying, allowing them to recover with ease. And even if I were to go farther out, I wouldn't be able to get them and I'd still die. All I hear you saying is "MY CHARACTER HAS A BAD RECOVERY BOO HOO I NEED LEDGE TRUMPING SO HE DOESN'T SUCK". If your character has a bad recovery, then you need to adapt to it.
And tripping? Nobody likes that. But guess what: IT WASNT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. Oh sure, it's annoying when you trip, but that's WHEN you trip.

 

[Munomario777]

This is just, ugh, I don't even know where to start, but I'll try my best to explain.
First of all, you cannot defend rage, especially like that. Rage rewards players FOR GETTING HIT. You should be trying NOT to get hit. You said that in Brawl, you can get punished for landing a solid hit on an opponent. What do you think Smash 4 does with rage? The person who's getting outplayed is getting rewarded while the person who is doing good is getting punished. In a way, its WORSE than hitstun cancelling. It's putting the losing player at an advantage. And you also gave a perfectly good reason why rage is a bad mechanic: It can be abused.

Rage is a risk-versus-reward deal. Players that take lots of damage still have a rather large net loss because, of course, they can get launched much more easily. Rage maxes out at 150% and the multiplier for knockback at that percentage is 1.15x the normal knockback, which is rather minor. While it can be useful if you somehow manage to stay alive that long, I would hardly call it an advantage.

Edgehogging was not pointless. You are an idiot. Characters with bad recoveries have them for a reason. Ever heard if Falco in Melee? He was what you would call a glass cannon. He hits hard, really hard, but you get him offstage and he's gonna die. Ledge trumping doesn't encourage you to go offstage because of how broken recovering is. If I go offstage to try to kill them, it doesn't matter how many times I hit them, because I can't go far enough without dying, allowing them to recover with ease. And even if I were to go farther out, I wouldn't be able to get them and I'd still die. All I hear you saying is "MY CHARACTER HAS A BAD RECOVERY BOO HOO I NEED LEDGE TRUMPING SO HE DOESN'T SUCK". If your character has a bad recovery, then you need to adapt to it.

Falco : Melee : : Little Mac : SSB4. Even with ledge trumping, he still has a lot of trouble getting back to the stage. Another good example is Ganon.

Good recoveries DO help offstage play, though, since the one guarding the ledge has an easier time getting back to the stage and thus can go farther distances when retaliating and potentially KO the recovering fighter. I fail to see how ledge trumping discourages offstage play. Additionally, there are quite a few gimpable recoveries. A prime example is Villager's balloon popping, of course, but many fighters also have hitbox-less recoveries that leave them open for a well-placed attack.

And tripping? Nobody likes that. But guess what: IT WASNT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. Oh sure, it's annoying when you trip, but that's WHEN you trip.

When the outcome of an entire stock (or sometimes the whole match/set/tournament) is decided by a random factor that players cannot control or adapt to, well...

 

[Malkasaur]

Rage is a risk-versus-reward deal. Players that take lots of damage still have a rather large net loss because, of course, they can get launched much more easily. Rage maxes out at 150% and the multiplier for knockback at that percentage is 1.15x the normal knockback, which is rather minor. While it can be useful if you somehow manage to stay alive that long, I would hardly call it an advantage.

Falco : Melee : : Little Mac : SSB4. Even with ledge trumping, he still has a lot of trouble getting back to the stage. Another good example is Ganon.

Good recoveries DO help offstage play, though, since the one guarding the ledge has an easier time getting back to the stage and thus can go farther distances when retaliating and potentially KO the recovering fighter. I fail to see how ledge trumping discourages offstage play. Additionally, there are quite a few gimpable recoveries. A prime example is Villager's balloon popping, of course, but many fighters also have hitbox-less recoveries that leave them open for a well-placed attack.

When the outcome of an entire stock (or sometimes the whole match/set/tournament) is decided by a random factor that players cannot control or adapt to, well...

Fine, I'll agree about the tradeoff with rage, but it is still NOT a good mechanic. It still is rewarding people who are taking more damage. It's like giving a baseball bat to someone who's about to lose a fight. Sure, just a punch or two more and they're out, but they have a baseball bat, so only a few hits from them and you're out. If you're losing, you should not have something to even the odds. It should be an uphill battle. Having something a mechanic that makes things easier for the losing player is stupid.
Just because they are a very small amount of characters with bad recoveries doesn't mean anything. Most of the cast can recover from ridiculous distances.
When both characters can recover from pretty much anywhere, it's pointless to try to edgeguard if you cant get the kill. Ledge trumping discourages offstage play because its so difficult to actually get a kill when you're trying to KO offstage. And since they can recover so well, if you try to recover and you end up on the ledge, your opponent is right behind you, and they ledge trump you before you can do a damn thing. Also, did you SERIOUSLY just say that you can gimp Villager? Yes, you can pop the balloons, but have you ever tried to? Almost every time you end up hitting Villager instead, allowing them to just use it again. Remember: Just because you hit a character out of a recovery move doesn't mean they can't use it again.
I have NEVER seen a Brawl set that has been lost because of tripping. Tripping doesn't happen every 5 seconds.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rage is a clutch mechanic, nothing more, nothing less. Tekken also has an officially dubbed Rage mechanic too, and it's been a really cool addition, and acts much like it does in Smash, and most people are fine with it as far as I know.

You can either get salty about how rage exists, or use it for what it exists for - making a comeback.

Granted, maybe some moves are given TOO much of a buff with rage, but it is what it is. Just learn to use it. And how to KO people at early percents. Many characters can KO even Bowser at low percents without rage, meaning he never gets that rage. I regularly KO Bowser players at around 60% with Rosalina.

 

[PlayerXIII]

Edgehogging was not pointless. You are an idiot.

I'm off this conversation. There is no need to insult each other over personal views. I bet you're an amazing person to be around IRL with that attitude.

 

[Munomario777]

Fine, I'll agree about the tradeoff with rage, but it is still NOT a good mechanic. It still is rewarding people who are taking more damage. It's like giving a baseball bat to someone who's about to lose a fight. Sure, just a punch or two more and they're out, but they have a baseball bat, so only a few hits from them and you're out. If you're losing, you should not have something to even the odds. It should be an uphill battle. Having something a mechanic that makes things easier for the losing player is stupid.

1.15x the normal knockback isn't a baseball bat; more like boxing gloves that make your punches a bit stronger. Again, this is assuming that you're still somehow alive at 150%. It's still very much an uphill fight; one good attack will send you flying.

Just because they are a very small amount of characters with bad recoveries doesn't mean anything. Most of the cast can recover from ridiculous distances.

You gave one Melee example (noticeable not from Brawl), I gave two SSB4 examples.

When both characters can recover from pretty much anywhere, it's pointless to try to edgeguard if you cant get the kill.

It racks up damage, potentially puts them in a bad position, and overall helps in the long run even if you don't get the KO.

Ledge trumping discourages offstage play because its so difficult to actually get a kill when you're trying to KO offstage.

How does ledge trumping relate to that at all?

And since they can recover so well, if you try to recover and you end up on the ledge, your opponent is right behind you, and they ledge trump you before you can do a damn thing.

Or you could land onstage, or do a better job at retaliating, or read the trump and punish them for it.

Also, did you SERIOUSLY just say that you can gimp Villager? Yes, you can pop the balloons, but have you ever tried to? Almost every time you end up hitting Villager instead, allowing them to just use it again.

A well-spaced aerial or projectile could do the job. And if not, you could just hit him with a powerful enough attack to KO him (which is easier than with most characters due to his light weight).

Remember: Just because you hit a character out of a recovery move doesn't mean they can't use it again.

Using a recovery move again and actually having the distance needed to get back to the ledge are two different things.

I have NEVER seen a Brawl set that has been lost because of tripping. Tripping doesn't happen every 5 seconds.

Well, let's see what could happen because of tripping (which has a one in one hundred chance of occurring every time that you quickly tilt the analog stick, including dashing, smashing, pivoting, etc.):

• Dash dance? Nope! > Gets hit whilst getting up
• Approach via dashing? Nope! > Is super vulnerable because of close proximity to the opponent
• Smash attack? Nope! > Again, is close due to smashes having short range
• Et cetera, et cetera.

 

[Guillaume1987]

You know what made me realize how smash 4 was healthier than other smash games for me? It's when I attempted a tournament last month and the whole roster saw screen time. Seeing that the Top 8 had 8 unique characters was enough to prove me that you could kick a** with most of the roster.

 

[DMTroop]

I never said that Brawl was bad myself, but it's the most panned from a competitive aspect, personally, I didn't find the game all that bad.

Didn't mean to imply that you think Brawl is bad, but the poll itself (not you) seems to be erring towards that side, just saying as it could impact how people respond to the poll and create unintended bias that you sought to eliminate in the first place. I get why its worded that way though :D.

Also, I'd argue that edge trumping actually enhances off-stage play, since you can chase the person trumped for an easy spike or something similar.

Eh, maybe I'm giving it too hard of a time. I'll concede that edgehogging was a rather cheesey way to close a stock. I guess it bothers me b/c of how easy it is ledge trump, but then again, neither was edgehogging. I guess I was expecting a more dynamic shift for Smash 4's overall gameplay and that's why I don't feel it's achieved much, as it feels mostly like a sped up brawl to me.

 

[J1NG]

To me, Smash 4 does indeed sit somewhere between Melee and Brawl, while posessing what I feel like is close to 64 levels of balance. It also has the most characters and stages of all the games.
Sounds like the perfect Smash, right?
Well, in my personal opinion, Melee still holds an edge as a competitive game due to having more interesting combos and tech's. I'm not calling it downright better. If Melee's roster were as even as Smash 4 while being balanced out in such a way where everyone had roughly space animal levels of viability, then that would make me pretty happy. Before you mention Project M to me, I will say now that I strongly disagree with their balance methods, even though it works(?).

 

[aethermaster]

Its a solid game with flaws. The lack of ATs (especially Link's) is jarring and a bit lame.

Also, I don't bother watching any tournaments with ZeRo in it because he just wins. Don't get me wrong, I hate what Melee fans did to him at Apex, but its SOOOOO boring watching a major tourney with him in it because nobody is as good as him and I want to see someone else win. Like we can all guess who will win EVO whereas Melee (or other fighting games for that matter) have multiple amazing players with many great characters. Part of what makes Melee good is that you never know who will win and part of it is rooting for your favorite player.

Smash 4 is literally him and m2k. I don't think its the games fault either but I wish more people were good or as good as they are. Obviously this ignores local/minor tournaments (Xanadu)

All that said, don't get me wrong I love Smash Wii U. Its pretty to look at and Yoshi is finally good so I'm happy. Its loads better than Brawl and is the most fun I've had with a non-modded Smash game since Melee.

 

[BlueTier]

It's too defensive and shallow. I think Brawl is better competitvely and deeper. But Melee is still the best compettively for sure.

 

[MapleWooD]

Things should be much better now that Diddy Kong's been nerfed, or at least I hope.

 

[Gamr_8]

I enjoyed playing sm4sh much more than playing Melee, not saying Melee sucks just saying I like sm4sh more though. There is less hand cramps for me also :D

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

I opted for the "Not quite Melee/Project M, but much better than Brawl" answer. I still to this day think that mellee is one of the fighters with the highest learning curve and with so many options. However i enjoy smash 4 more personally, a more diversed roster thats the closest to a balanced roster we've had in any smash game so far. Some melleeplayers might think that smash 4 is dumbed down, but i think it feels great, the thing i enjoy the most about smash 4 is that i can take any of my friends, put them in my couch and they'll enjoy the game no matter on how skilled or bad they are, in mellee you really needed to put the time into that game to make it properly amazing fun.

 

[Mwauthzyx]

It's better than Brawl for sure but I still prefer Melee for its fast pace. (Totally not because Marth is actually good in Melee)

 

[Rikter]

I enjoy watching Melee but as for actual play I prefer 4. Both of them play out very differently and it really shouldn't cause such huge arguments as it does.

 

[WwwWario]

Just gonna add to what I said: I said Smash 4 is very good in the competitive scene, and I stand by that. However, I think rolling still ruins some of it. Sure it's punishable, but 95% of the FG matches I've played has been in a certain rythm. What I mean is, they always go in the same pattern: Go in and attack, roll away, attack, roll away, attack, roll away.... it's a certain beat that goes to this pattern, which gets really boring. Now I'm not saying all matches are like this. The ones that aren't are always very fun indeed, but these type of matches just becomes a game where you must guess if your oponent rolls backwards or forwards, and hope for a small opening to punish. I know it's not like this in real competitive tournaments, but the fact that this is how the game is, well, people take advantage of it online, and those matches gets really boring.