After 237 hours with Villager, I'm dropping him.

[Wyles]

Villager is good. I know this. When he was revealed I instantly wanted to use him, and I did. Early game (3DS) I managed to win two local tourneys and with the release of the Wii U win one tourney (90 players) and place high in others. As we progress through the meta, I noticed something...

Villager isn't good enough.

He has many strengths, such as edge guarding and really strong baits... However when faced with reflectors and fast characters... He can't really compete much. People say he's a Diddy counter because he can take his banana? Diddy Kong still has all the tools he has to destroy Villager. Fox has a reflector and is extremely fast. Zero Suit has the easy bake combos as well as Falcon, Sanic is fast, and Sheik is... Stupidly good. The reason I performed excellent in the early metagame was because people weren't used to the matchup. This made people confused because Villager is such an awkward character to fight and people never really saw potential in him. Now that the metagame is advancing with faster characters, and more knowledge of the matchup (went to a local tourney with half of them playing Sheik/Diddy) it's rough out here for a pimp.

Again, Villager is fantastic and hella cute. He's fun and is great in friendlies and to troll/generally destroy people new to the matchup, but as you get higher and higher in bracket, you start to see better adaptions and punishes to Villy's slowness/ledge options. When the game progresses and everyone starts to get a hang of Villager, it can't be really a good option to use him competitively. I plan to use Villy A LOT more, but when it comes to tournaments, I gotta switch.

tl;dr Villager is good but if people know whats youre starting to do youre getting bopped son. Even with mixups competitive play is a b^tch to handle in top top play.

 

[Ultinarok]

Villager is good. I know this. When he was revealed I instantly wanted to use him, and I did. Early game (3DS) I managed to win two local tourneys and with the release of the Wii U win one tourney (90 players) and place high in others. As we progress through the meta, I noticed something...

Villager isn't good enough.

He has many strengths, such as edge guarding and really strong baits... However when faced with reflectors and fast characters... He can't really compete much. People say he's a Diddy counter because he can take his banana? Diddy Kong still has all the tools he has to destroy Villager. Fox has a reflector and is extremely fast. Zero Suit has the easy bake combos as well as Falcon, Sanic is fast, and Sheik is... Stupidly good. The reason I performed excellent in the early metagame was because people weren't used to the matchup. This made people confused because Villager is such an awkward character to fight and people never really saw potential in him. Now that the metagame is advancing with faster characters, and more knowledge of the matchup (went to a local tourney with half of them playing Sheik/Diddy) it's rough out here for a pimp.

Again, Villager is fantastic and hella cute. He's fun and is great in friendlies and to troll/generally destroy people new to the matchup, but as you get higher and higher in bracket, you start to see better adaptions and punishes to Villy's slowness/ledge options. When the game progresses and everyone starts to get a hang of Villager, it can't be really a good option to use him competitively. I plan to use Villy A LOT more, but when it comes to tournaments, I gotta switch.

tl;dr Villager is good but if people know whats youre starting to do youre getting bopped son. Even with mixups competitive play is a b^tch to handle in top top play.

Villager is easily top 15 in the game still, just look at how Salem uses him. If you've put in the dedication, stick with it. Villager has tons of potential, and customs are about to be legalized, meaning Villager's great customs (Timber Counter, mainly) will be available. There's no sense jumping on the bandwagon just because your character isn't Diddy or Sheik. If everyone did that, imagine where we'd be. It'd be Brawl all over again. Its not like you chose Zelda or Charizard. Your character's battle isn't that uphill.

Stick with Villager, he's a solid character, likely high tier regardless of his weaknesses.

 

[Wyles]

Villager is easily top 15 in the game still, just look at how Salem uses him. If you've put in the dedication, stick with it. Villager has tons of potential, and customs are about to be legalized, meaning Villager's great customs (Timber Counter, mainly) will be available. There's no sense jumping on the bandwagon just because your character isn't Diddy or Sheik. If everyone did that, imagine where we'd be. It'd be Brawl all over again. Its not like you chose Zelda or Charizard. Your character's battle isn't that uphill.

Stick with Villager, he's a solid character, likely high tier regardless of his weaknesses.

I know I said Villager isn't bad, I'll still use him and such but I might get better results in tournament if I switch.

 

[Ultinarok]

I know I said Villager isn't bad, I'll still use him and such but I might get better results in tournament if I switch.

You may. But consider this:

1. If you switch for tournaments, all the skill with Villager you've spent time acquiring will be pointless in competitive. 237 hours of dedication is a lot of time to waste just to get slightly better results with a simpler characters.
2. If you continue playing Villager, you will contribute more to his metagame, effectively helping him perform better. We don't need to see more good Diddys to know he's good, but the more good Villagers there are, the more recognition he'll receive.
3. If you like Villager, stay loyal to him. You'll still do well at tournaments. No need to go out of your comfort zone just to place slightly higher. You may end up placing lower anyway.
4. The metagame is more exciting to watch and experience when there's variety. There will always be hundreds of Diddys and Sheiks at tournaments. But we now know that Luigi and Pikachu are good because dedicated users demonstrated it. If they had switched to Diddy like everyone else, we may still think Luigi is low tier.
5. Winning with "an inferior character" is far more rewarding and superlative to someone's talents than winning with the same characters everyone wins with. You stand out more when you dominate with an underdog than a top-tier dime-a-dozen.
6. You clearly have a bond with Villager, so to speak, if you've put so much time into him. Its always more fun to use someone you like than someone that wins. Don't be like ZeRo and only play top tiers to win money.

Just food for thought.

 

[Antonykun]

You can be like me and train with a top tier as a counterpick (pikachu BTW) but still have Villy as your main and the top tier for CPs or You can be like Player 1 who is primarily a Diddy Main in tournaments but that doesn't mean he won't use his Villager from time to time.

 

[Darklink401]

Villager is good. I know this. When he was revealed I instantly wanted to use him, and I did. Early game (3DS) I managed to win two local tourneys and with the release of the Wii U win one tourney (90 players) and place high in others. As we progress through the meta, I noticed something...

Villager isn't good enough.

He has many strengths, such as edge guarding and really strong baits... However when faced with reflectors and fast characters... He can't really compete much. People say he's a Diddy counter because he can take his banana? Diddy Kong still has all the tools he has to destroy Villager. Fox has a reflector and is extremely fast. Zero Suit has the easy bake combos as well as Falcon, Sanic is fast, and Sheik is... Stupidly good. The reason I performed excellent in the early metagame was because people weren't used to the matchup. This made people confused because Villager is such an awkward character to fight and people never really saw potential in him. Now that the metagame is advancing with faster characters, and more knowledge of the matchup (went to a local tourney with half of them playing Sheik/Diddy) it's rough out here for a pimp.

Again, Villager is fantastic and hella cute. He's fun and is great in friendlies and to troll/generally destroy people new to the matchup, but as you get higher and higher in bracket, you start to see better adaptions and punishes to Villy's slowness/ledge options. When the game progresses and everyone starts to get a hang of Villager, it can't be really a good option to use him competitively. I plan to use Villy A LOT more, but when it comes to tournaments, I gotta switch.

tl;dr Villager is good but if people know whats youre starting to do youre getting bopped son. Even with mixups competitive play is a b^tch to handle in top top play.

And this is why a lot of people either have a secondary like Sheik or Diddy, or they make Villager their counterpick main

Because he's extremely good against pretty much half the cast, if not more, he just have severe problems with rushdown characters

=P

 

[Antonykun]

Because he's extremely good against pretty much half the cast, if not more, he just have severe problems with rushdown, pressure, and anti-zoning characters

=P

Fixed

 

[Darklink401]

Fixed

Well rushdown characters pressure you and make it hard to zone, so I thought that was just a general thing o3o

 

[Antonykun]

Well rushdown characters pressure you and make it hard to zone, so I thought that was just a general thing o3o

No not really rushdown have great advantage but you can zone them out Pika is anti-zoning with his speed and projectiles... heck he doesn't even need to rush Villager down until he needs a kill.

 

[Darklink401]

No not really rushdown have great advantage but you can zone them out Pika is anti-zoning with his speed and projectiles... heck he doesn't even need to rush Villager down until he needs a kill.

So what's Sheik classified as? o3o

 

[Antonykun]

So what's Sheik classified as? o3o

Pressure lots of hitboxes, gets in and out, and can bother you from anywhere with Needles

 

[BlackNitrous1]

Yeah he takes time to get used to. An excellent counterpuncher

 

[Rockaphin]

Villager is good. I know this. When he was revealed I instantly wanted to use him, and I did. Early game (3DS) I managed to win two local tourneys and with the release of the Wii U win one tourney (90 players) and place high in others. As we progress through the meta, I noticed something...

Villager isn't good enough.

He has many strengths, such as edge guarding and really strong baits... However when faced with reflectors and fast characters... He can't really compete much. People say he's a Diddy counter because he can take his banana? Diddy Kong still has all the tools he has to destroy Villager. Fox has a reflector and is extremely fast. Zero Suit has the easy bake combos as well as Falcon, Sanic is fast, and Sheik is... Stupidly good. The reason I performed excellent in the early metagame was because people weren't used to the matchup. This made people confused because Villager is such an awkward character to fight and people never really saw potential in him. Now that the metagame is advancing with faster characters, and more knowledge of the matchup (went to a local tourney with half of them playing Sheik/Diddy) it's rough out here for a pimp.

Again, Villager is fantastic and hella cute. He's fun and is great in friendlies and to troll/generally destroy people new to the matchup, but as you get higher and higher in bracket, you start to see better adaptions and punishes to Villy's slowness/ledge options. When the game progresses and everyone starts to get a hang of Villager, it can't be really a good option to use him competitively. I plan to use Villy A LOT more, but when it comes to tournaments, I gotta switch.

tl;dr Villager is good but if people know whats youre starting to do youre getting bopped son. Even with mixups competitive play is a b^tch to handle in top top play.

I agree with a lot of what you said actually. While Villager is still my main, I think he's better suited as a counter-pick. Now, I'm not saying that he can't be someone's main, because I think he is viable, but it's just like any other Smash. I do believe the balancing team did better this time around though.

 

[cree318]

For me, Villager is just too fun to pass up. He has an amazing zone and gimp game while also having many tricks up his sleeve like trees, pockets, or bowling balls. I like to think of myself as a good Villager player (best I've done in a big tournament was 9th at Xanadu) but still I feel that he is one of those characters that has a pretty good time against higher tiered characters. My biggest problem seems to be with faster ones like Capt Falcon or Sonic. To counter that I've been working on using Sheik.

Soooooo my advice would be either stick with Villy and try to second a fast character to cover your bad MUs or make Villy your secondary while you try and find a higher tiered character that you like.

 

[Mtn64]

That seems stupid
That's a dumb reason to quit villager.
Have you ever heard of the word counter pick?
That word is beautiful. It allows you to get better matchups against villagers awful mus.
Hate sheik? (All villagers so BTW.) Counter pick
Can't fight diddy? (I'm honestly having an easy time with this.)
Fox problems? Fox doesn't have many approaches, but either way counter pick.
There will always be characters who have bad MUs, just maybe not as bad as Villager vs Sheik.
Learn to either counteract this or just pocket another character for the mu.
Not being good enough isn't really fair to villager, given certain villagers doing very good with him.
All it is is practice. We saw low tiers beat metaknights in brawl.
All it is is practice, and how devoted you are.

 

[captain clutch]

This isn't just the case with Villager though. Many characters have match ups that they struggle against. So that's why good, top players who don't play Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, or other top characters, tend to pick up other characters to CP certain MUs. Like @ Antonykun , I've picked up Pikachu also. I'm in the stage of putting as much work into him as I did with Villager.

I'd say don't drop Villy, but rather pick up another character to compliment him. The tournaments I have done, it's fun using a character that people don't get to see as often. It can make you the underdog/crowd favorite.

 

[Antonykun]

This isn't just the case with Villager though. Many characters have match ups that they struggle against. So that's why good, top players who don't play Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, or other top characters, tend to pick up other characters to CP certain MUs. Like @ Antonykun , I've picked up Pikachu also. I'm in the stage of putting as much work into him as I did with Villager.

I'd say don't drop Villy, but rather pick up another character to compliment him. The tournaments I have done, it's fun using a character that people don't get to see as often. It can make you the underdog/crowd favorite.

BTW MK will make you cry
Either way Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I don't know, are characters with reflectors really that bad? I mean they can't reflect everything, and some still have to commit to the reflecting which can sometimes give you a perfect opportunity to attack.

Also, like it has been stated multiple times, countepicking. I personally have Rosalina and Jigglypuff as well. These characters do help against some of my more difficult match-ups.

Projectiles are also not completely villager. His Nair is amazing for getting in and/or just throwing out when the opponent is on top of you.

Also lastly, practice practice practice.

 

[captain clutch]

BTW MK will make you cry
Either way Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi-Pi.

Ew MK lol.

I don't know, are characters with reflectors really that bad? I mean they can't reflect everything, and some still have to commit to the reflecting which can sometimes give you a perfect opportunity to attack.

Also, like it has been stated multiple times, countepicking. I personally have Rosalina and Jigglypuff as well. These characters do help against some of my more difficult match-ups.

Projectiles are also not completely villager. His Nair is amazing for getting in and/or just throwing out when the opponent is on top of you.

Also lastly, practice practice practice.

Nair, dair, up air, jab and tilts are the only things villager can do against projectiles. Clearly it's not an automatic loss for Villager, but it's a disadvantage.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Ew MK lol.


Nair, dair, up air, jab and tilts are the only things villager can do against projectiles. Clearly it's not an automatic loss for Villager, but it's a disadvantage.

Well, I mean, you just named over half his moveset and completely excluded pocket. I wouldn't even call it a disadvantage if that truly is the case.

 

[Antonykun]

Villager losing to reflectors is still IMO hugely exaggerated. Reflectors do help some MU's (Mario/Doc and Falco) but for the most part its more of who owns the reflector. For example Skull Barrier is a pretty meh reflector at best, but because it belongs to MM it is nightmare fuel.
Like try to tell me that Villager loses to Zelda because of Nyaru's Love.

 

[captain clutch]

Well, I mean, you just named over half his moveset and completely excluded pocket. I wouldn't even call it a disadvantage if that truly is the case.

Pocketed items can still be reflected too though.
Like I said, it's not an automatic loss, but it's still a disadvantage, and it's hard to argue against that. Moreso reflectors like Palutena, Ness, and Falco.

 

[Veen.]

Don't give up villager. I went to my first tourney yesterday and placed 9th out of 39 using villager. People get excited when they see a variety of characters used. Have a counterpick up your sleeve, but stay with villager. He's so much fun to use.

 

[Antonykun]

Pocketed items can still be reflected too though.
Like I said, it's not an automatic loss, but it's still a disadvantage, and it's hard to argue against that. Moreso reflectors like Palutena, Ness, and Falco.

Actually Falco's reflector us really good and it's one of the few reflectors that is as equally good as who uses it.

 

[Mtn64]

Pocketed items can still be reflected too though.
Like I said, it's not an automatic loss, but it's still a disadvantage, and it's hard to argue against that. Moreso reflectors like Palutena, Ness, and Falco.

Honestly, the only one I have trouble with is falco. Think of their reflector like our pocket.
We lose the mega man matchup right? Part of that is because he doesn't care if we pocket one metal blade. He'll send 20 more.
The reflector is the same thing, he can't reflect all of our things. So there's no point in limiting your projectile usage because of it.
I'm not saying "spam lloid and fair" but more so don't be afraid to press the button just because he can reflect it.

 

[Wyles]

That seems stupid
That's a dumb reason to quit villager.
Have you ever heard of the word counter pick?
That word is beautiful. It allows you to get better matchups against villagers awful mus.
Hate sheik? (All villagers so BTW.) Counter pick
Can't fight diddy? (I'm honestly having an easy time with this.)
Fox problems? Fox doesn't have many approaches, but either way counter pick.
There will always be characters who have bad MUs, just maybe not as bad as Villager vs Sheik.
Learn to either counteract this or just pocket another character for the mu.
Not being good enough isn't really fair to villager, given certain villagers doing very good with him.
All it is is practice. We saw low tiers beat metaknights in brawl.
All it is is practice, and how devoted you are.

I'm not entirely quitting Villager. I spent so much time with him, it's hard to actually completely drop him. I'm dropping him as a main because tourneys are getting harder and harder to win consistently with him, rather than my "secondary" (who's now my "main.")

 

[Sonsa]

Villager is super solid and can take on plenty of characters that are used a lot in tourneys. Villager has lots of favorable matchups, and he can totally take on Diddy. But against Sheik and Yoshi, oh Megaman too, maybe a few others...yeah, you might want a strong secondary.

 

[Volya]

I don't agree with Diddy, i worked the MU a lot this weekend and even if you keep his banana he don't need it to approach Villager. But we're not in the good thread to talk about it, soz

 

[Sonsa]

I don't agree with Diddy, i worked the MU a lot this weekend and even if you keep his banana he don't need it to approach Villager. But we're not in the good thread to talk about it, soz

Oh well I'd love to discuss it more in the matchup thread, I talk there a whole bunch and would love to hear your thoughts. I also fought Diddy this weekend in an online tourney and think I lost 2-1 just because of the stages I was taken and mistankingly chose. But yeah, gatta stay on-topic here... Umm... I still think Villager is super solid and could be used as a nice counter character, like against ROBs, Wario, Shulk a bit, etc

 

[Darklink401]

Villager losing to reflectors is still IMO hugely exaggerated. Reflectors do help some MU's (Mario/Doc and Falco) but for the most part its more of who owns the reflector. For example Skull Barrier is a pretty meh reflector at best, but because it belongs to MM it is nightmare fuel.
Like try to tell me that Villager loses to Zelda because of Nyaru's Love.

Villager loses to Zelda because of Nayru's Love

At the very least, I despise fighting Zeldas with Villager. Then I again, I've fought only like 2 Zeldas, and both were better than me anyways. So I guess there's that.

 

[Antonykun]

Villager loses to Zelda because of Nayru's Love

At the very least, I despise fighting Zeldas with Villager. Then I again, I've fought only like 2 Zeldas, and both were better than me anyways. So I guess there's that.

Zelda is annoying, just, annoying.
Nairo's Love will only effectively reflect Lloyd (and timber if you are brave/dumb)
Her kit is stupidly slow and her kill options rely on you overexerting yourself due to the annoy factor in her defensive game.
Respect the lighting kicks and the elevator and be even more annoying than she.

 

[Darklink401]

Zelda is annoying, just, annoying.
Nairo's Love will only effectively reflect Lloyd (and timber if you are brave/dumb)
Her kit is stupidly slow and her kill options rely on you overexerting yourself due to the annoy factor in her defensive game.
Respect the lighting kicks and the elevator and be even more annoying than she.

She also reflects fairs and bairs ;-;

However I've noticed that the turnips are great against her, due to priority. Approaching is the problem, due to Villager's speed.

Not that Zelda is all that fast, haha. At least she dies fast.

I would just rather NOT have to reflectors, XDD

 

[Antonykun]

She also reflects fairs and bairs ;-;

However I've noticed that the turnips are great against her, due to priority. Approaching is the problem, due to Villager's speed.

Not that Zelda is all that fast, haha. At least she dies fast.

I would just rather NOT have to reflectors, XDD

not like slingshot is really punishing when reflected.

 

[Darklink401]

not like slingshot is really punishing when reflected.

Try saying that when you try to do it close-range

That shizz kills.

 

[Sonsa]

Eh, when fighting Zelda's ya just sorta gatta be patient. Gyroid to down-air turnips is good cause gyroid will bait the nayru's love as your turnips hit through it. Din's Fire is predictable, so is that knight thing, pocket that if ya can, her up-b, just shield that - you'll usually be fine, just shield and punish if you can. Just be patient overall.

 

[Antonykun]

Try saying that when you try to do it close-range

That shizz kills.

You do close ranged Slingshot's when Zelda can reflect them? at that range i just DJ into D/U-air

 

[Darklink401]

You do close ranged Slingshot's when Zelda can reflect them? at that range i just DJ into D/U-air

In retrospect, its not the best option.

Its usually when I get up from the ledge, I let go, jump and fair most of the time. However I guess with Zelda I should just roll. XP

 

[Encephalon Decay]

@ Wyles , I want you to do me a favor. First, I want you to go look up the ssbm tier list for today, and the one from 2002. I want you to compare them carefully before reading the rest of this.

Did you notice where jigglypuff was on the first? How about Zelda? Mario?

In the beginning, people thought jigglypuff blowed, and that zelda/mario were the best things since sliced bread. Now, Jigglypuff is used by one of the champ players, and he gets results. Does anyone see Zelda in top 8's these days? No, but there's still people who try to be innovative with her. Zelda/Mario's gameplay didn't get worse, Jigglypuff's just became more expanded on. People learned how to use it and shine with it.

Now let's take a look at my melee main: Ice Climbers. 11th place isn't too bad, but (to my knowledge) people didn't really start playing them seriously until Chu Dat started figuring them out. The earliest IC combo vid I can find is his frostbite one, in 2006. It took almost four years from the first tier list for Ice Climber's true potentially to start really shelling out and be made public.

What I'm saying here is; the game is young still, regardless of what people say. Villager may not look great now, but for all we know he still has some potential hidden somewhere. And to me, it'd be a damn shame to see that potential wasted just because, this early on, people are starting to think a character's "not good enough". I don't even play Villager, and seeing a thread like this already coming out makes me incredibly sad.

Keep learning. Be innovative. Push your character to their limits and then find a way around them. People like Taj and Axe and Gimpyfish didn't get known by quitting the characters they love just because they weren't "good enough".

 

[JohnnyB]

...and we just got a new balance patch that nerfed the top 3 characters

So stay tuned...

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

In retrospect, its not the best option.

Its usually when I get up from the ledge, I let go, jump and fair most of the time. However I guess with Zelda I should just roll. XP

Zeldas reflector is one of the better ones IMO it's very fast has som invincibility frames, is a great get off me option(if that's what you say lol) long duration and is pretty good overall.
Villager won't really punish us too well if we do reflect it(mainly from afar) now what we will have trouble reflecting is Bair and Fair, unless we can predict when you use them(and preferably very close to get its best KO potential)

But yea ours is actually pretty good, but because villager isn't a character that will stay close to us whatsoever, the get me off option won't be that much of help, but we won't suffer the worst from over using it(not like you should)

But I anything, yea FALCOS reflector, that's the worst......it's so easy for him to throw that out from a distance and stay safe, I find his reflector to be so annoying for real........