Advices on how to beat a near-casual Marth as Fox ?

[Shir0]

Hello guys,
I started trying to learn melee and Project M recently and picked up Fox quite quickly because I really like his kit, his speed
and the flashiness of some of his moves.
So in a little bit less than a week i'll be attending a "tournament" with my casual friends that I would really like winning,
so I played with a friend, a Marth main to prepare for it and I just can't get to win against him.
We played a lot together and he's pretty average now, just below a very good casual, as he edgeguards really well, shieldgrabs, techs and has a decent mindset I'd say.
As a Fox main, I am training everyday on my shorthopping, my SHFFL'ing and my wavedashing/waveshining.
During training, I can get a pretty nice % of success on these moves (around 70% I'd say) but during games (even against CPUs) this percentage drops to barely 50%.
If you want an idea about our level of play, we can quite consistently 3-stock lvl 9 cpus and we've been playing smash a lot for about 2 weeks. (we played brawl before but as casuals)
My problem in this matchup is that I don't really know what to do in order to win, everything seems in Marth's favor as his
range is really big, his edgeguarding is really rewarding and hard to bypass, and finally his grab range is really wide (god bless my friend doesn't know how to chaingrab)
So my friend doesn't L-cancel, has a good DI, never wavedashes whatsoever yet he can manage to beat me without a lot of effort (games are close only if I don't mess up my SHFFL'ing + follow up)
So what are your advices on what to train/do for the next few days to be best prepared to beat him in this matchup ?
(+ side question : how can you land your up air after upthrow, everytime I try it seems like he can dair me before I can hit him)

 

[yttik]

First thing, please don't play against level 9 CPUs, your skill vs AI means nothing and you'll just develop bad habits. Play against real people or level 1s and beat them up to practise solo tech.

IMO, at a lower level I don't think there's any advanced matchup stuff you need to implement, just do what Fox does well and you'll be destroy anyone who's worse than you, it's only when you're both good at the game when you need study the matchup specifics.

Everything isn't in Marth's favor, he can really hurt Fox hard if you know how to play but if your friend doesn't know how to chaingrab etc, then I don't see this happening. Just focus on developing a strong neutral, bait and punish. If his edgeguarding is a problem, maybe you should try to mix up your recovery (use shortens, recover low, high etc). Marth can punish lots of different recovery options for spacies but I doubt that your friend, being new, knows them all (I only know a fraction of the options and I mess up and do the wrong punish half the time).

Just some general stuff:

Does he F-smash in neutral? That's something a lot of new Marths do and it's a free punish.

New players often roll too much, punish those too.

Shoot lasers a lot, Marth hasn't got a projectile.

Waveshine him since you can do that against Marth.

Shine spike gimp him as much as possible.

About the 50% consistency thing, I had the same problem, you think you can do the tech okay but you mess it up in a match. Sounds dumb but all you have to do is practise more, especially against real people.

 

[Cres]

First thing, please don't play against level 9 CPUs, your skill vs AI means nothing and you'll just develop bad habits. Play against real people or level 1s and beat them up to practise solo tech.

IMO, at a lower level I don't think there's any advanced matchup stuff you need to implement, just do what Fox does well and you'll be destroy anyone who's worse than you, it's only when you're both good at the game when you need study the matchup specifics.

Everything isn't in Marth's favor, he can really hurt Fox hard if you know how to play but if your friend doesn't know how to chaingrab etc, then I don't see this happening. Just focus on developing a strong neutral, bait and punish. If his edgeguarding is a problem, maybe you should try to mix up your recovery (use shortens, recover low, high etc). Marth can punish lots of different recovery options for spacies but I doubt that your friend, being new, knows them all (I only know a fraction of the options and I mess up and do the wrong punish half the time).

Just some general stuff:

Does he F-smash in neutral? That's something a lot of new Marths do and it's a free punish.

New players often roll too much, punish those too.

Shoot lasers a lot, Marth hasn't got a projectile.

Waveshine him since you can do that against Marth.

Shine spike gimp him as much as possible.

About the 50% consistency thing, I had the same problem, you think you can do the tech okay but you mess it up in a match. Sounds dumb but all you have to do is practise more, especially against real people.

Although you did explain things that make it easier, you did not explain how to get past these things, he still looks like a new player so yeah.

I mean at the lower levels, simply dash dancing and waithing for the marth to do something (aka commit) then you punishing it (usually with a waveshine grab, grab, waveshine upsmash, etc.) quickly is very effective, dash dance camping is something noobs in general wont know how to deal if you're running around them. The best punish you can do on marth is simply grab.

I suggest you go here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoU3TQBakHOqdcN4HWVDpVuYcO58Xf617

A very good playlist for new foxes too look at and you will learn alot from it. Now a tech that will help you A LOT against noob marths.

Wavedash down, how do you use it? If you know the marth is simply going to attack once he sees you coming you can fake him out with a wavedash down and he will commit then you get the free punish

You------> (Wavedash Down) (Marth Attacks and falls for it) You punish with a grab or whatever.

One last thing, remember that noob marths LOVE to spam f smash and swing their sword a ton, simply run in shield with your shield angled forward will give you a free aerial out of shield punish or a grab because they will most likely challenge you with an attack when you run at them.

Really, marth is a noob slayer, it's not your friend. It's you and the marth. I was in a very similar situation until I realized that just cause Im fox doesn't mean I get to run in willy nilly when I was super nooby. Simply waiting for him to do something will solve most of your problems.

EDIT: Please stop playing Level 9s, also practice your tech skill and look up "Fox Trials" on youtube to know what fox tech you should be practicing.

 

[Federade]

Dash in --> wavedash back is your best friend. I had a similar problem against a Marth friend of mine when I first started and using wavedash back to bait our forward smashes got me tons of free grabs.

Also use fox's speed to your advantage. If you camp lasers on bigger stages like Dreamland or Pokemon, new Marths will often respond with an overcommital dash grab or forward smash. If you consistently punish these by using fox's better movement options, and by reacting to how the Marth tried to get in on you, you will wear your opponent out.

Lastly don't get shield grabbed. That frustrated me to no end. Shine grab on shield is not usually safe but works well against new Marths in my experience.

 

[Archelon]

Against his Marth, you best bet is to just dashdance and maybe shoot the occasional laser and wait for him to commit, then punish accordingly. I think you'd find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5WLjB8qOTE very useful.