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Advancing Pit's metagame!Post-ban preparation!

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Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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So, this thread will be for anything and everything related to pit's metagame,

how to advance it, things to work on, ideas/strategies/tactics to test irl and

report, playstyle differences among matchups and/or players.(aka defensive vs

defensive defensive vs aggro, aggro vs cautious, cautious vs defensive), and

anything you guys can think of!

To get an idea of what i'm wanting out of this thread please see--->The peach boards thread on advancing her metagame

I'll be updating every three pages worth of info.


Topic 1:playstyles
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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I kind of want to explore the advantages of not using arrows and saving them for edgeguarding. I feel like fresh arrows offstage could result in better gimps.

Also, woi oos to cancel grounded attacks and what to do after that (jab, fsmash, forward roll) And wing refresh chasing as well and what move would be best to use out of it.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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^^^^^^^^Idk. Arrows are far to useful as a zoning tool. I don't think the reward(s) would be worth it. Maybe in some mu...but idk. It's definitely a good idea to test. I've been wanting to do the arrowless pit practice for a while but it seems counter-productive imo. I've been using WoI OoS much more. It ***** grabbing OoS. As far as what to use after it cancels imo i'd see jab and froll being the best. With shield/grab as alternatives if u read the option. And is very useful in some mu i've found. I prefer hovering around people with my jumps. The are no best options it all depends on the situation and result it would produce. IE recreating the situation if the move lands/killing if it lands.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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for wing refresh chase i just do that to people when i hit/throw them away from and either just dart up to them and pivot bair or go behind them and space a fair. of course there are different options for when they are airborne but i assumed you meant onstage fighting.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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Well yeah, wing refresh really shouldn't be used for grounded fights because there's no way to defend yourself other than attacking and it isn't much faster than running if faster at all. Anyway offstage, I've wing refresh chased into a fast fall uair timing the last hit with knockback to hit. I feel like it has better horizontal knockback than fair so harder to DI.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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i feel like it's way faster than running is but maybe that's just me. and i know it's risky on the ground but i usually do it when they are landing from getting thrown or something. hell there is tons of things to do with this. i sometimes extend wing dash to cross up behind them and grab or jab. or ill rush in with wings but then go over them and use a spaced dair. i just love the mobility it gives us. oh and i rush people with it offstage too luckay, it's so effective. never really tried to get just the last hit of uair in like that though. ill have to practice that.

edit:

krystedez ptzr fyre kiraflax koolaid esca lenus etc. don't you guys dare let kuro luckay and i do all the work in here, come on what do you guys do with woi besides recover?


double edit:

kuro at your playstyles part,

1. i updated my summary in that thread a little.

2. if everyone that isn't finished with their style summary finishes theirs it would make it easier to just have all that info in a collapse box in the op. like maybe combine the threads and then collapse it or something.
 

Kuro~

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^^^^^^^^^^^That's a great idea maharba. Once me and fyre do ours that'd be a great piece of info.

And ptzr i guess. But he said he wasn't going to do it ^_^;
 

Lenus Altair

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...Wow, I got a shout out? Considering most of my experience is lurking and watching...

Well, one thing I've be told (by people here) that is fairly unique in the way I play Pit is how I fire my arrows. Some of my habits have changed but, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krCEe1I4xv8&t=4m44s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09IyLblmYU&t=1m25s

You'll note I often curve my arrows as if my opponent had a reflector, arcing them "unnecessarily." I've continued to do this, in fact I do it with almost all my shots, but arcing up and back down, and along the ground and back up. I like the zoning options it gives, especially against characters who A) are tall or B) like to short hop/float. By arcing arrows you limit a person Ariel options, especially since you can chose to straighten them out at head height. You can also level them at floor height and sometimes can even poke a weak shield. This is of course a standard measure against short characters. I don't simply bend my arrows down at the last instant. I fire them level with the ground. Arcing up on the other hand does make it better to charge head on however, so overall it should be used as another variable for your opponent to have to predict.I know this is a rather large blurb for something fairly minor, but...meh.

As those who have seen me post know, I strongly advocate sticking to Pits camping game as his primary tool. It's low risk with moderate reward against most of the cast. Which is great.

Also, WoI. I Wingstall. A lot. However, to mix it up, I often Woi and use it to dash to the other side of the stage into a neutral position. A "neutral" position with Pit often means his advantage since he out camps the majority of the cast.

In fact I advocate abusing WoI Manueverablity/Spacing a lot more. While it does involve risk, I like to think about it like Diddys Bananas. Can an opponent take advantage of Diddys Bananas(Pits WoI?) Sure they can. But the Diddy using bananas(Pit using WoI) usually is much more experienced at it and therefore the reward is usually in their favor. Pits WoI allows him to use a completely different set of physics. It doesn't let you sheild, to be fair, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6npO-NoOPOg&t=0m15s

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krCEe1I4xv8&t=5m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krCEe1I4xv8&t=5m52s
 

Katana_koden

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Glad you understand some of pits physics Lenus, keep working on it.
I'm still into the technical frame traps + mind-fux.

Here's a bit we don't know about fighting our character. Pit is god-like annoying, not only because his arrows. Pit baits you 70-80% of the match to attack him. Unless he's getting out camped by TL or so. Attacking pit recklessly can lead to severe punishes and also placed at bad positions and distances.

Pit seems to be easily baited to SPAM A SMASH ATTACK!! Pit players are or usually so defensive or turtles basically. But the most common is a F-Smash opportunity or D-Smash. Its very easy to telegraph once you understand pit. Also when punished, options seem lost and begin to retreat.

Pit can space his aerials well but reading your opponents reaction to a blocked or whiffed aerial becomes more tricky.
An ex: Marth's Fair.
We all know its not easy to punish a spaced fair. But positioning isn't always at his favor. If he does it to close, he might get grabbed etc.
But to compensate for that, his nair or uair can become a block string or grab punish.

I always work on such physics. And I'm darn good at both arrows and close combat and both looping at same time. Hence Sexy Pit or Best pit in GA. =D Ego Ego Ego
Seriously all for pit, I'm trying to find a more staple strategy for pit.

Playing other fighting games. Basic attack strategies are combos, mix-ups, resets. I'n my definition.
-Combos= A string of close to or unavoidable attacks.
-Mix-Ups= Mind Games/ in order to confuse your opponent from a common approach adding a different variable to get in and start your combo.
-Resets= Brawl doesn't seem to have many true combos/ or just can't complete many. A reset will be another mindgame or strings that would let you continue your combo or attack from another direction. (air dodge punishes)

to be continue.
 

Kuro~

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I've yet to see you in recent action katana. I'd be interested in seeing how far you've taken your ideas. Cuz we seem to think a bunch alike. I like how you took traditional fighter concepts and linked to em to brawl's scenarios since we have more to consider than typical fighters.

@Lenus i've been trying to incorporate looping in the right instances like krystedez. It's been working out nicely. Whether it's to hinder air camping(works wonders) or to bait an attack(love doing that vs marth. Act like your looping read approach get a nice punish). But other than that i actually love WoI more than arrows. One my personal favorites is reading the shield-->grab approach and falling with a bair. Works great with Jump cancel OoS WoI. Run up shield(to bait the grab) JC WoI FF bair. That and WoI on BF is godly. If your in trouble under platforms you can use the fact that u auto refresh to escape and reset pretty safely. Same goes for a d3 messing up the chain grab on smashville. Just WoI and PC. Has saved me quite a few times.

I also think more pits need to experiment with his full moveset more. Like ftilt is so godly once you see the situations to use it. I also think minor, technical aspects people don't pay attention to need to be given more focus. Like when you uptilt making sure you buffer the turn around to get all the hits. A simple thing but many just buffer the uptilt and not the turnaround uptilt.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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guys i've been studying looping and against top level players, it is only good to loop on reads (number one time to do it), when you are zoning (the other acceptable time to do it but don't do it a lot by any means), and when you have an arrow drawn and you are getting grabbed (duh). seriously, there are so many better things to do than loop an arrow. trust me, i advocate it's usefulness, and use it in matches and have studied it's truly viable applications. this is it, reads and zoning. seriously learn how to do every loop efficiently, and then only use them on reads/bait traps, and zoning/spacing. that's it. please don't try to find a hidden meaning for this tech, there isn't one
 

Lenus Altair

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Yeha Kuro, I'm a big Fan of looping for sure, and more then just the standard loop. :) Also F tilt is sexy; Deceptively long with great push back.

I'll have to try the buffered turn around Utilt. Hadn't heard that one before.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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i meant more than just the standard loop too. against players that play a pit who can do it (just ask sync about what he does to obvious loops) you cant just loop and expect it to work. it's gotta be on read. i mean hell yes loop combos are sexy. and i do pull them off all the time. but it's on read. literally every time i just try to do a normal loop, sync knows i can only do so much and make that arrow come back around (even if i fight while i do it, you still only have so many options) and will either grab me, throw pikmin, if i jump/glide well he's olimar figure that out yourself lol. im not saying don't ever loop (and for the love of god learn all of the different ways to loop so that more reads are open to you). im just saying don't rely on it's "out of nowhere" effect anymore. be cautious and smart with it.
 

Kuro~

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I don't like looping that much. Like i said most of the use i find for it is stopping air camping without putting myself at risk of taking extra %. However looping is a great baiting tool. Everyone goes DERP DERP HE'S LOOPING!SCRUB! CHARRRRRRGE!
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Kuro~
I tried. And it had activity for about a week. And then ppl stopped.
Edit Report IP

02-13-2012 11:23 PMpitskeyblade
I think the Pit mains need a new project to focus on. We're getting stagnant.





Same with the advancing the metagame thread. Which is impossible to "complete" That was suppose to be ongoing. You come in talk about ideas and tricks your working on. What situations your thinking of using them in. How they could gain you advantage and we all share our ideas and theories that we have floating around in our heads from our experiences/thought processes. But it died after 2 pages.
[12:47:19 AM] Will: And it's even been necro bumped like 2-3 times
[12:47:23 AM] Will: But ppl keep ignoring it


I should infract for the god awful obvious trolling >.> but i'm not trying to be an ***. Why would we rediscuss a mathup that's been beaten to death? once a matchup is discussed it's up to me to translate it into a concise summation that gives an idea about various aspects. Anything more specific should be delt with by simply asking. I just wish we weren't so lone wolf style a bunch of the time. Stuff like this http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=305350 and this http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317918
[1:29:28 AM] Will: That's what i'm referring to
[1:29:38 AM] Will: Continuous community efforts that change with the flow of time.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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Yeah guys, we need to step it up Angel style like the other character boards. Eat sleep and breathe Pit because it is who we are. Now get to work on those MU discussions and lets even bring back the stage stuff because stages are important too. We need to be able to take advantage of the stupid stuff on some stages rather than hone our own skills sometimes.
 

Admiral Pit

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Well, seeing how the topic is still "Playstyles" until we can figure out a new one to discuss according to what I've read around here (though we should work on MU and stage discussion soon), let's see what I can do, and Kuro did tell me to contribute here, so yea, let's see what I can do.


For my style, I consider myself a hybrid between Defensive and Technical, with a bit of Offense in certain cases. Here's a tricky part.
While I, for the majority love playing the defensive, and prefer to be at a distance, provided that it's appropriate for the Matchup and if I'm not panicking if I'm not in the lead, I do like to change my style out of the blue and try being a bit aggressive while studying the opponent's habits and actions. Here's how it works:

Defense: My defense is well-known to many who has played against me, especially those who spar with me. Against certain characters, mainly those we can camp against, I sometimes wait for them to approach, and probably lunge out for a quick offensive attack, to surprise them. My defensive capabilities also include my little ledge camping game with arrows, mirror shield, sometimes AR, F-air or B-air back on the stage. This works well against some stressed out opponents that try to rush in, especially if I'm in the lead.
I can also be defensive to lure in certain characters in for a CG (like DK), or do the classic F-throw > Stutterstep F-smash thing if possible. Because those actions may require the opponent to be at 0%, I try firing arrows sparingly, sometimes making them miss on purpose to lure them in. There are times where I'll actually just stay put while crouching, waiting to see the opponent's next move, and possibly strike whenever ready. It can include an arrow when I see an opening, an appropriate close-ranged attack if close by, or even turn aggressive in an instant.


Offense: Switching to offense can surprise some opponents who are very well used to my defensive nature. This includes me slowly closing in while throwing out SH N-airs, F-airs, or arrows, maybe even SH U-air depending on the opponent.
For the CG or F-throw > F-smash thing, I may temporarily become offensive, just going in hoping to deal damage quick. If I do or don't I can switch to defense to get a better position.


Technical: This style is different, for not only can I incorporate it into both defensive and offensive styles, but it actually adds on to them to help trick the opponents. Platform canceling on SV and Lylat, the looping arrow stuff, Pivot arrows/grabs, using Up-B to platform cancel on some stages like PS1, and most noted, BF. Heck, even Wingdash instead of the BF platform cancel to trick opponents. As for multiple-arrow usage, it's one of those risk/reward type of things. I wouldn't expect to do this on every level though.



One of my goals is to trick opponents, or keep them thinking at times as I study their style and actions, and being technical helps, provided I'm on a suitable stage. Where defense usually gives me more time to study and adapt, Offense helps me study what they may do when they're possibly under pressure, and try to exploit them. Add that with being able to exploit basic weaknesses for certain characters (Camping and CGing against like DK, keeping Zelda above you, etc.). Each style helps, but even I can be troubled, and be blindly offensive or defensive if I'm failing.

For like Sonic, provided if I'm in the lead, I can just wait for them, shoot an arrow once in a while, wait for them, see what they do, counter if they do what I want em to do. I may even pivot grab their spindash sometimes to add to suppressing them, though I regret not knowing when they'll grab me instead.
For certain characters like TL, you may notice that they like to jump a lot, so I may aim arrows upward very often.
For those you can camp, like DK, Ike, and Ganon I just be defensive for so long that I can surprise em and be aggressive in an instant, and see what they may do to adapt if they can.

Another goal is to be a unique Pit. Some players may expect a common defensive Pit, or offensive one, maybe a "blind" tech one, but I like to mix it up, keep them guessing and such (platform canceling on SV has helped me a lot here), pressure whenever possible.
However, not everything is successful. I do panic myself against certain opponents and characters, either because I do not know some matchups, or am pressured enough to not being able to study or adapt quick enough.
Sometimes, playing against me can help with my explanation, and characters + styles do matter.
 

Kuro~

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Any ways you particularly like exerting pressure on opponents to force mistakes? Or ways you like to bait people out?

That question is at anyone really

I personally just use lots of zoning pressure against opponents. I mix up pivot arrows with dash grabs and wavebounce angel ring/rar nair. Other than that i 've been messing around with bair for shield pressure. Not sure of it yet. I also like spaced jab out of a fox trot. Works decent enough to force a reaction.
 

Admiral Pit

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Pressure varies depending on the character, their style, and what stage we're on. It's obviously harder against certain matchups and all, though common pressure includes F-airs, N-airs (this one works better against larger characters), arrows, maybe even SH D-airs and U-airs.
Speaking of which, if I was against a character like G&W, or one with a reflector (I'm counting Ness and Lucas due to their magnet), I do like to trick them into using said moves, and close in when they least expect it. One moment I may be spamming arrows, another moment, I may just close in when they (hopefully) do the wrong move, and attack. Learning this against G&W has helped me from time to time.

It's easier to play against me when you get the chance and see what type of stuff I may do.
 

Krystedez

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Probably like throw up against wall and they didnt tech so you WoI right before they touch the ground to screw up their tech at least their. I don't know any other instance where it'd work.
 
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