Advanced Techniques (AT's), what are they, and what do they mean for Smash Bros. Wii U?

[Ulevo]

A new game is coming, and this undoubtedly means that many new faces will be coming to the competitive scene. Subsequently this also means many of those faces will be browsing these forums for information. One of the unfortunate things I have come to realize is that there is a gap in proper understanding on what Advanced Techniques are, what they do, what defines what an advanced technique is, and so on. More so than this, there have been sentiments that advanced techniques are bad for the game by some, and that it would be better if they were excluded or removed from future Smash iterations. While we collectively don't have much of a say on what does or doesn't make it in to the next Smash Bros., it's important we all greet it with an open mind, whether if you are casual or competitive at heart. A good perspective always stems from a foundation of proper knowledge on the subject, hence this thread.

So. What are Advanced Techniques?

Well, it isn't a very easy question to answer, as the Smash community has a funny tendency to give silly names to unorthodox, complicated, or even simple tactics developed over time. To give an you an idea, Wobbling, an infinite performed by Ice Climbers in Melee, was named after a tournament player Wobbles who brought the technique to the forefront of tournament play. The Sex Kick was adopted as the term to any neutral air or other aerial attack that has a long lasting hit box. As you can see, some of these techniques can be not very discriptive, nor informative. More importantly, their association with being an advanced technique does not define whether or not they are difficult to perform, or even advanced in nature.

If a broad definition had to be given, I would say an advanced technique is a technique that has room for application in advanced levels of competitive play.

While the exact origin of where the term advanced techniques came up is quite questionable, it is arguable it was mostly popularized from this series of YouTube tutorial videos, as well as this thread by AlphaZealot detailing the terminology behind the common names used for Smash. I highly recommend watching and reading these, as even if you're not a Melee player yourself, it will familiarize you with a lot of our history and the origins of some of the terms you will undoubtably encounter.

Essentially, an advanced technique can be any technique that a player wishes to label the term to. And this is what is important to understand. A lot of players have the misunderstanding that advanced techniques only include much more complex maneuvers like Wavedashing, Moonwalking, or L-Cancelling, which were native or popularized during Melee's prime, and might be daunted at the idea of their future inclusion. This has created a stigma that advanced techniques are bad, hard to perform, unhealthy for the games quality, and cater to an select elitist few.

The truth is that a lot of techniques many of you might use in games with your friends are not only considered advanced techniques, but are rather simple to both understand and utilize, even if you have yet to apply a name to them. An example would be the short hop. It is one of the simplest aspects of playing Smash Bros., but it is still one of the most important basic elements to master as a competitive Smash player. Another great example is the shield grab. By shielding an attack, you can counter out of the shield with a grab by pressing A. This technique alone is essential to apply in your games if you wish to succeed, and to learn how to work around if you want to avoid taking lots of damage. Despite this, it's incredibly easy to use.

Most advanced techniques are in actuality fairly easy to execute, and to apply. This is of course not true in every case, and there are exceptions, but it holds true as a general rule. Watching the tutorial video I provided the link to above shows a visual demonstration of what I mean.

So what do advanced techniques mean for the next Smash Bros. Wii U?

Advanced techniques, be advanced or not, mean a deeper, more engaging, longer lasting learning and gaming experience for the players. They give you new tools to learn and explore as you continue to play, and let you grow as a player.

A lot of people believe that advanced techniques might create a technical barrier that will prohibit players from enjoying the full experience of Smash. Players shouldn't have to feel this way, and there isn't really a concern to. While it is true that there is a lot to learn about Smash Bros. that allows players of all kinds of ways to ascend to new heights, it doesn't take away from your personal experience. You set your own limitations.

Smash is a very complicated game with a very simple direction on how to approach the player. You're given simple ways to control your character and make them do moves. No action you'll perform ever requires you to use more than one or two buttons together at a time. All this considered, there are so many things you can do at any given moment. True autonomy of your character at all times is something rarely seen in fighting games, and it is the foundation for why Smash can be so simple, so beautiful, and yet so complex.

Smash Bros. is about making proper reactionary play with all of the options you have to use at any given time more so than whether or not you can perform seemingly impossible mechanical moves. By viewing these advanced techniques as tools to help you in these moments, and not obstacles that get in your way, you open yourself up to whole new exciting way to play.

It's my hope that the new Smash Wii U has something for everyone, and that it brings some new things we can all come to learn together as a community.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

So what do advanced techniques mean for the next Smash Bros. Wii U?

Advanced techniques, be advanced or not, mean a deeper, more engaging, longer lasting learning and gaming experience for the players. They give you new tools to learn and explore as you continue to play, and let you grow as a player.

Sadly some people disagree. I've yet to see a legitimate justification as to why though.

 

[smashbrolink]

AT's are a tool.
Like any other tool, they can create depth that will give many characters new ways of approaching battles [Wave-dash], they can become a nonsensical in-between to what would be better off happening automatically instead of having to press buttons for absolutely everything[L-canceling], or, at their worst, they can become a barrier, a bane to the accessibility of the higher-level areas of the game's depth, and the cause behind grand-canyon-sized gulfs between players who do use certain ones and players that don't, as well as a deterrent for lower-level players that want to learn these higher-level techniques so that they've got more to play with, but don't want to work like a dog against their own natural dexterity limits to achieve it because, for them, that's not fun much less accessible.[Wave-shine, and arguably, SHFFL]

From what I have seen so far, Smash 4 is removing the majority of Melee's techs.
This comes with good and bad, but it is adequately balanced out by an increase in speed and the removal of tripping.

I don't feel that many of said AT's being gone is going to do anything to hurt the game's longevity or charm for any but the most ardently hard-core of the smash community.

TLDR: I don't feel that AT's being gone is going to mean anything overly negative for Smash 4.
There's a few that I feel would be better off staying, but I don't feel the game will suffer to the point of becoming horrible due to it, thanks to the changes in pace, possibly in hitstun, changes to characters, and the fact that tripping is gone.

Even with AT's gone, players are going to find Smash 4 fun enough to continue playing for as long as they can find people to play with, because technical or not, Smash has a different style than traditional fighters that people just plainly and simply ENJOY.
It didn't need AT's to attain that charm, even though some of them helped, so it won't suffer horribly from a few of them going away.
Smash 4 is going to do just fine.

 

[Ulevo]

AT's are a tool.
Like any other tool, they can create depth that will give many characters new ways of approaching battles [Wave-dash], they can become a nonsensical in-between to what would be better off happening automatically instead of having to press buttons for absolutely everything[L-canceling], or, at their worst, they can become a barrier, a bane to the accessibility of the higher-level areas of the game's depth, and the cause behind grand-canyon-sized gulfs between players who do use certain ones and players that don't, as well as a deterrent for lower-level players that want to learn these higher-level techniques so that they've got more to play with, but don't want to work like a dog against their own natural dexterity limits to achieve it because, for them, that's not fun much less accessible.[Wave-shine, and arguably, SHFFL]

Shuffling is not a dexterity challenge. You short hop, you fast fall with an aerial. Only difference is you L-Cancel at the right time. Even without L-Cancelling, the concept still exist and is applicable as well as important.

Waveshining was technical and difficult, yes. But it was character specific, so I don't see how this becomes a bane for players.

From what I have seen so far, Smash 4 is removing the majority of Melee's techs.
This comes with good and bad, but it is adequately balanced out by an increase in speed and the removal of tripping.

I don't feel that many of said AT's being gone is going to do anything to hurt the game's longevity or charm for any but the most ardently hard-core of the smash community.

I feel that there is little evidence to support exactly what techniques will be available outside of the ones that relied on Melee's airdodge. Everything else is potentially open. Also, the reason Melee was as quick as it was was because of the techniques you were able to apply to speed you up. I've seen you post about this before, and it seems like you just assume Smash Wii U will be magically faster. Sakurai has made this promise, but he hasn't addressed how, so its something to keep in mind.

TLDR: I don't feel that AT's being gone is going to mean anything overly negative for Smash 4.
There's a few that I feel would be better off staying, but I don't feel the game will suffer to the point of becoming horrible due to it, thanks to the changes in pace, possibly in hitstun, changes to characters, and the fact that tripping is gone.

Even with AT's gone, players are going to find Smash 4 fun enough to continue playing for as long as they can find people to play with, because technical or not, Smash has a different style than traditional fighters that people just plainly and simply ENJOY.
It didn't need AT's to attain that charm, even though some of them helped, so it won't suffer horribly from a few of them going away.
Smash 4 is going to do just fine.

They won't be gone, there will just be some that are not included, and it is likely more will be introduced. But one of the fundamental reasons Smash became as competitive as it was was because of the depth different aspects of the game provided. What you would call advanced techniques encompass this. Without these facets of the game, Smash would be fairly shallow by comparison because there would be very little to learn, and it wouldn't have as much of a following.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Lets give advanced techniques a cooler name and acronym.
STDs
Sexy Techniques of Death

ATs are assist trophies now.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

AT's are a tool.
Like any other tool, they can create depth that will give many characters new ways of approaching battles [Wave-dash], they can become a nonsensical in-between to what would be better off happening automatically instead of having to press buttons for absolutely everything[L-canceling], or, at their worst, they can become a barrier, a bane to the accessibility of the higher-level areas of the game's depth, and the cause behind grand-canyon-sized gulfs between players who do use certain ones and players that don't, as well as a deterrent for lower-level players that want to learn these higher-level techniques so that they've got more to play with, but don't want to work like a dog against their own natural dexterity limits to achieve it because, for them, that's not fun much less accessible.[Wave-shine, and arguably, SHFFL]

From what I have seen so far, Smash 4 is removing the majority of Melee's techs.
This comes with good and bad, but it is adequately balanced out by an increase in speed and the removal of tripping.

I don't feel that many of said AT's being gone is going to do anything to hurt the game's longevity or charm for any but the most ardently hard-core of the smash community.

TLDR: I don't feel that AT's being gone is going to mean anything overly negative for Smash 4.
There's a few that I feel would be better off staying, but I don't feel the game will suffer to the point of becoming horrible due to it, thanks to the changes in pace, possibly in hitstun, changes to characters, and the fact that tripping is gone.

Even with AT's gone, players are going to find Smash 4 fun enough to continue playing for as long as they can find people to play with, because technical or not, Smash has a different style than traditional fighters that people just plainly and simply ENJOY.
It didn't need AT's to attain that charm, even though some of them helped, so it won't suffer horribly from a few of them going away.
Smash 4 is going to do just fine.

See, the issue here is that you described the aforementioned techs from Melee as unattainable skills, which seems like a gross exaggeration. Part of the issue of what could discourage a player isn't just visual, but it's descriptive. An advanced technique isn't a complicated series of inputs, it's a technique that if implemented successfully, can give you an advantage based on your knowledge of the game. A crouch cancel is an advanced technique, yet it only requires you hold down during certain percentages. Direction Influence (DI) is an advanced technique, it only requires you to hold the joy stick perpendicular to an attacks launch trajectory (though it becomes more intricate with use). The same applies with power shielding and teching, as they are all advanced by their own merits. If I were to give an advanced technique an innate qualifications, it would be something that allows you to take control in a situation where you wouldn't have little to none of it.

When you put Melee's technical aspects into perspective they aren't that difficult in hindsight when you understand proper application and execution. Knowing how to DI is simple,but knowing when to DI or predicting how the opponent may react to the DI could either save you, or get you comboed. Knowing when to crouch cancel can give you a chance to punish the opponent really well, or cause you to take severe damage from an attack., and so on. The thing that discourages these players from using them isn't the aspect of using a rapid series of inputs, but we blame the mechanical aspects due to our lack of understanding. It's similar to how we implement god in the machine. When something breaks down, we tend to place blame in the machine by calling it "stupid" or "junk", or we pray to a higher power for something to work (Having your car break down on a highway can do crazy things to people) despite the fact that we know a machine doesn't require divine intervention. This applies to Smash, when we don;t do something to well we tend to lay the blame on a technical miscalculation or that game itself instead of looking at whether or not try to understand our own mental blocks. Just as improper use of a machine can cause it to decay, misuse of rudimentary mechanics can lead a player to failure.

Whether or not players are receptive of advanced play all depends on the mentality of the player. If a player truly wants to get better, he will understand the errors in his game play and opt for learning a more advanced technique because the benefit of learning will aid the player in his ability to make proper decisions and react faster. The minor technical barriers caters to the player who is good at implementing them. When you understand what you doing speed of execution isn't the most important thing (though this really is beneficial for players).

As for your gripe with advanced techniques, I understand that it's hard for the average player to wrap their head around a long string of inputs beyond hitting the joystick and an attack button in a direction, especially when the premise of the game is simplified, but advanced techniques in smash follow the same premise of sequential execution of attacking in game. a SHFFL is just doing every thing you already learned in the game, just a bit faster, a wavedash is just jumping and air dodging. If you break it down it's all very simple and graspable to the player because you aren't doing anything out of the ordinary. Though I have to disagree with the implementation of automatic L-canceling since characters have landing lag to produce a fluid animation. It would be useful if it was automatic, but there would still have to be another prerequisite to execution, meaning it wouldn't be entirely autonomous, but it would be perceived as simple since it wouldn't require you to press anything that would be "odd" to the player (I.E. pressing the shield button after a normal attack is counter intuitive to some players because they are being offensive).

You really shuoldn't use hyperbole such as a "Grand Canyon" sized gap, or state that players shouldn't go against their natural dexterity. The Grand Canyon is actually a perfect metaphor for personifying the potential of a player, as the Grand Canyon was chipped down from water. If a player can hone his skill and chip away at his barriers, he/she too can become the "Grand Canyon" in his own right. Furthermore, you state that challenging your natural abilities is a problem. That's how we get stronger, break records, do the impossible, refine ourselves; challenging yourself is part of being a human, the strive to be penultimate only to perfection is what drives us. What do you get when you don't try to challenge yourself? Laziness and complacence.

 

[smashbrolink]

Shuffling is not a dexterity challenge. You short hop, you fast fall with an aerial. Only difference is you L-Cancel at the right time. Even without L-Cancelling, the concept still exist and is applicable as well as important.

Waveshining was technical and difficult, yes. But it was character specific, so I don't see how this becomes a bane for players.



I feel that there is little evidence to support exactly what techniques will be available outside of the ones that relied on Melee's airdodge. Everything else is potentially open. Also, the reason Melee was as quick as it was was because of the techniques you were able to apply to speed you up. I've seen you post about this before, and it seems like you just assume Smash Wii U will be magically faster. Sakurai has made this promise, but he hasn't addressed how, so its something to keep in mind.



They won't be gone, there will just be some that are not included, and it is likely more will be introduced. But one of the fundamental reasons Smash became as competitive as it was was because of the depth different aspects of the game provided. What you would call advanced techniques encompass this. Without these facets of the game, Smash would be fairly shallow by comparison because there would be very little to learn, and it wouldn't have as much of a following.

Shuffling was not a dexterity challenge "for you".
That doesn't mean it isn't true for quite a few people. I've met and talked to quite a few people regarding this topic in recent months.

As to how Smash 4 is faster?
You've seen the game in action. Characters are far less floaty and attack speed is noticeably faster.
Melee wasn't quick solely because of the techniques, not even mostly. It was because the game wasn't floaty and naturally slowing the game down that allowed most of those techs to even make the characters as fast as they were during techs.

And, I never meant to imply that they'd all be gone, but upon further thought, I've yet to see any confirmation that they're in, so I'm going to take that as a sign and consider them out until further notice.

 

[smashbrolink]

See, the issue here is that you described the aforementioned techs from Melee as unattainable skills.

I stopped reading right there. I won't be holding further discourse with you until you agree not to put words in my mouth based on perceived implications.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I thought the term "sex kick" came from the fact that it had a strong KB initial hitbox with a weak KB lasting hitbox. It started off strong, then petered out... you know, like sex. ^_-

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I stopped reading right there. I won't be holding further discourse with you until you agree not to put words in my mouth based on perceived implications.

What about "Grand Canyon sized gulfs" doesn't sound unattainable? If you aren't going to read it fine, but don't take one statement so personally that you are just going to cop-out of reading it. What you interpreted in your statement was enough for me to draw to that conclusion. If you are going speak about something that people don't agree with you should prepare yourself to face it with some consequence. Don't start what you can't finish.

 

[smashbrolink]

What about "Grand Canyon sized gulfs" doesn't sound unattainable? If you aren't going to read it fine, but don't take one statement so personally that you are just going to cop-out of reading it. What you interpreted in your statement was enough for me to draw to that conclusion. If you are going speak about something that people don't agree with you should prepare yourself to face it with some consequence. Don't start what you can't finish.

Again, don't put words in my mouth based on your own assumptions; a gulf doesn't make something unattainable.

I'm done with you until you can talk without trying to cram your views down my throat.
In fact, try it again and I'll set you on block instead of responding, to avoid letting this get any further out of hand.
If you want me to read so much of such a long post, start by giving me the incentive to do so by not doing something insulting. I don't play nice with a person who tries to speak for me, especially when they try to hypocritically tell me not to start things.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Again, don't put words in my mouth based on your own assumptions; a gulf doesn't make something unattainable; that's just you cramming your own idea of what I meant down my throat instead of actually trying to understand.

I'm done with you until you can talk without trying to cram your views down my throat.
If you want me to read so much of such a long post, start by giving me the incentive to do so by not doing something insulting. I don't play nice with a person who tries to speak for me.

Dude, quit whining. It's a post, either you read it or you don't. You can't feel insulted by something you didn't fully read.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[Priap0s]

Also, the reason Melee was as quick as it was was because of the techniques you were able to apply to speed you up. I've seen you post about this before, and it seems like you just assume Smash Wii U will be magically faster. Sakurai has made this promise, but he hasn't addressed how, so its something to keep in mind.

I promise you, even if you removed L-cancel, wave dashing and such, melee would still be alot faster game then brawl.

Haven't this thread already been done thou? The other one wich essentialy discussed the same exact things (thou this op express himself more elegantly) didn't become to enjoyable. Just a circle argument and alot of closed minded people battling to "be right" instead of taking in what points others made. Do we really need another thread like that?


Imo: Let's just wait with the AT-discussion until we get some info regarding their apperance in smash4?

 

[smashbrolink]

Dude, quit whining. It's a post, either you read it or you don't. You can't feel insulted by something you didn't fully read.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Try owning up to your mistakes instead of pretending you've done nothing to mess with someone.
You put words in my mouth.
You pretend I'm the one that started this when my original post wasn't even an attempt to piss off people like you.
You accuse me of whining.
Then you try to tell me how I can or cannot feel because I refused to read past the point you tried to cram your words down my throat.[Jumping from dictating the meaning of my words to trying to dictate my FEELINGS? My God, bro. Take a step back and look at how you're talking!]

If you want discourse, find it with someone who's just like you.
I won't be a part of any more of this crap you keep trying to force upon me.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Try owning up to your mistakes instead of pretending you've done nothing to mess with someone.
You put words in my mouth.
You pretend I'm the one that started this.
You accuse me of whining.
Then you try to tell me how I can or cannot feel.[Jumping from dictating the meaning of my words to trying to dictate my FEELINGS? My God, bro. Take a step back and look at how you're talking!]

If you want discourse, find it with someone who's just like you.
I won't be a part of any more of this crap you keep trying to force upon me.

Own up to what? What mistakes am I making? If you are really this serious about something that some random dude on the internet said then you need to get some specifics. No one is forcing you to do anything. I don't have a gun pointed to your head, and yeah dude, you are overreacting. I didn't start anything man, you literally took one line of text and took it out of context, then you take it in such a way as if I called you out your name. I mean, what did I start? Does disagreeing with you counts for starting something? Dude, where on earth are you getting this from? I don't recall telling you how you can feel, and even if I did what can I do about it? If i'm doing something to offend you, then quote me on my BS since I can't see it then. You really need to chill, man.

aight, im gonna break this down.
i didn't make a mistake, and i'm not trying to mess with anyone. i'm sorry if you took it that way, but that's not what i was doing. Trying to mess with some internet dude is farthest thing from my mind
I never said "you said this". Did I rephrase what you said? Yeah, but it wasn't taken out of context.
I wasn't trying to start anything. Again, if you feel like i'm starting something, then i'm sorry, but I can't help how you think and feel
I accuse you of whining because that's what it looks like to me; I call it like I see it. You shouldn't let some dude random person get under your skin like that.
Okay, the last thing, about me telling you how to feel, all just falls on how you read it. This is just another case of the net doing its thing. I;m not telling you what to do, i'm making a rhetorical question. Example:

You say something ridiculous happened, and I respond with "You can't be serious"
That's different from me stating something you can't do, like "You can't be serious"

Grammatical error on my part? Maybe, but you shouldn't take all of this in such a literal fashion.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I thought the term "sex kick" came from the fact that it had a strong KB initial hitbox with a weak KB lasting hitbox. It started off strong, then petered out... you know, like sex. ^_-

Yeah thats basically it lol

 

[Ulevo]

Shuffling was not a dexterity challenge "for you".
That doesn't mean it isn't true for quite a few people. I've met and talked to quite a few people regarding this topic in recent months.

As to how Smash 4 is faster?
You've seen the game in action. Characters are far less floaty and attack speed is noticeably faster.
Melee wasn't quick solely because of the techniques, not even mostly. It was because the game wasn't floaty and naturally slowing the game down that allowed most of those techs to even make the characters as fast as they were during techs.

And, I never meant to imply that they'd all be gone, but upon further thought, I've yet to see any confirmation that they're in, so I'm going to take that as a sign and consider them out until further notice.

If you truly believe that there is a noticeable amount of players that find pressing up or Y or X on the controller, then down on the controller, to be a difficult technical feat, then this is not the consequence of the games design. The people you describe either have severe physical disablements, or they're simply not willing to play the game enough to learn even the easiest of mechanics. What this also means is that this discussion does not apply to them because they will never be willing to put in the work to compete in competitive play, and are just casual gamers who will remain as such until they decide otherwise.

This illustrates the same argument I gave on bicycles and training wheels. Riding a bicycle is not difficult, despite it being difficult when you first try it. Hundreds of millions of people globally have successfully rode a bike in their lifetime because they took the step necessary to learn how to despite its initial challenge. The solution to those who fail to put in the work to learn how to ride one (or those unfortunate enough to be physically incapable of doing so) is not to permanently put training wheels on bicycles during the manufacturing process. It's to learn. The application to Smash is no different.

Essentially, I'd prefer to not call your post a cop out, but I am anyway.

To add to that, I don't think you have knowledge of the game's frame data to make sufficient assessments as to exactly how the game is faster by a character comparison when comparing both games. The gravity values, fall values, and fast fall values were a factor, but they were only one piece of a much larger puzzle.

 

[Ulevo]

Also, this thread is not meant to become a place for arguments about your personal feelings. The reason I made this thread was to give a clear perspective about some of the misunderstandings people have when it comes to certain terminology and concepts in competitive Smash to the newer player.

If you want to argue about other things, then take it to private messages.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

...

Not this again...

(I'm talking about the fact of arguing. Can't we just agree to disagree and move on already? 'sides, there's a 17 page thread already on the impact of ATs on Casuals and what not. Take your arguments there.)

 

[smashbrolink]

If you truly believe that there is a noticeable amount of players that find pressing up or Y or X on the controller, then down on the controller, to be a difficult technical feat, then this is not the consequence of the games design. The people you describe either have severe physical disablements, or they're simply not willing to play the game enough to learn even the easiest of mechanics. What this also means is that this discussion does not apply to them because they will never be willing to put in the work to compete in competitive play, and are just casual gamers who will remain as such until they decide otherwise.

This illustrates the same argument I gave on bicycles and training wheels. Riding a bicycle is not difficult, despite it being difficult when you first try it. Hundreds of millions of people globally have successfully rode a bike in their lifetime because they took the step necessary to learn how to despite its initial challenge. The solution to those who fail to put in the work to learn how to ride one (or those unfortunate enough to be physically incapable of doing so) is not to permanently put training wheels on bicycles during the manufacturing process. It's to learn. The application to Smash is no different.

Essentially, I'd prefer to not call your post a cop out, but I am anyway.

To add to that, I don't think you have knowledge of the game's frame data to make sufficient assessments as to exactly how the game is faster by a character comparison when comparing both games. The gravity values, fall values, and fast fall values were a factor, but they were only one piece of a much larger puzzle.

I originally had a nice long response posted here, but after you called my previous post nothing more than a cop-out, I figured you aren't very keen on discussing this with me, since you seem to have already disregarded my reasons with that line....
Of course, being a part of the previous bout of bad messages makes that partially my fault, so I can't blame you for that. Still, I'm not going to waste both your time and mine by replying, if you're just going to consider a different point of view to be nothing more than a cop-out.
Have a good one, I guess.

 

[grizby2]

whats the deal with people saying l-canceling and wave dashing being the only advanced techniques?

what about REAL advanced techniques? you know... like:

wall teching
ground teching
Power/just shielding
wall clinging
B reversing
wall jumping
reverse run grabbing
being able to angle F-smashes and F-tilts
Tether grab recovery (to an extent)

come on people