Advanced Tactics: Doubles Ledge Play

[Oddyesy]

So, Doubles play in general in relation to Fox and his Shine. He's got some high endlag after it, but I think the trajectory is similar. Would it be possible for a Fox/Fox team to do the classic 'waveshine' movement without wavedashing, by alternating who shines the opponent, ultimately ending in a shine spike? It'd be like... leap frog, and would require a high degree of skill and coordination between teammates to pull off, but wouldn't that make it a pretty advanced trick? Smash4 is full of these little things that get me so hyped.

Imagine being run down on FD by two Foxes shining you, one after the other, ending with getting shine spiked into a KO. That'd be terrifying if I was on the receiving end, and I would freak out as a spectator.

Yeah, I've noticed a general downscaling of growth kb from what I've seen, so I'm thinking that it would be easy to pseudo waveshine for an extended period of time.

 

[Bobojack]

How about stealing the opponents ledge and at this moment your partner (Megaman) jumps above him and snipes him with his dair (Its a projectile with spike). Seems like a pretty good and easy thing to do.

 

[Oddyesy]

How about stealing the opponents ledge and at this moment your partner (Megaman) jumps above him and snipes him with his dair (Its a projectile with spike). Seems like a pretty good and easy thing to do.

That's exactly what we were discussing.

 

[Fortress]

How about stealing the opponents ledge and at this moment your partner (Megaman) jumps above him and snipes him with his dair (Its a projectile with spike). Seems like a pretty good and easy thing to do.

It's actually a spike? What's the angle of knockback on the move? Has anybody got to use it consistently enough so far to tell? That sounds really good, actually, and really safe considering Mega Man doesn't have to get close to his opponent.

I know this is about Doubles, but has anyone seen how ledge stealing works when someone JUST reaches the ledge and still has invincibility works? The demo just showed the mechanic, and how they had no invincibility of the sort. Perhaps it's still possible, only now the timing has to be perfect, and if you mess up, you have to return to the ground to get your ledge invincibility back.

Yeah, ledge invincibility depends on a lot of factors now, so many that I think ledge stealing is going to play a larger role in Smash 4's ledgeplay than ledge hogging. You can still get invincibility at the ledge, but how much you get depends on a ton of different factors.

 

[Fortress]

Double-post.

 

[Bobojack]

I think its a meteor smash..One of them. They said something like that (between e3 and ~august) I dont have a link sadly. :/
For now, Im more hyped for doubles than for singles (in a competitive way). Doubles in Brawl is already my second favourite smash-"genre" after melee singles.They are the best part of Brawl imo. You made me so hyped OP. Now, I have to think for some 20XX sm4sh doubles strategies and get a friend of mine to team uo with me. And the best thing: It doesnt look like "1~2 Fox and 1~3 MK in every Doublesmatch". Id rather say that we have so many new and cool characters like Rosalina or Villager that we will have lots of variety (at the beginning at least)! Gonna think about a Villager w/ Rosalina strategie. Hoping that sm4sh diubles will be accepted by melee and brawl players. Brawl doubles are for example also accepted by many melee players by the look at the chat when Brawl doubles is streamed on twitch. It could potentially be the main event at some tournaments. (Sorry for bad english lol)

 

[Fortress]

So, I feel selfish coining this term, but if you guys get the chance at a demo, I'd love to test out Chainshining. Waveshining in the traditional sense (Fox reflector > wavedash > reflector > repeat) isn't possible in Smash 4, but in a Doubles scenario, a Fox/Fox (or Fox/Falco) team could potentially pull off something similar that would require both of their coordination, effort, and skill.

So, you shine your opponent, and your teammate jumps over you during endlag, shines, then you do the same, rinse and repeat until you end up with a Shine Spike. I'd be willing to bet that there would be similar setups between Fox and Falco on the same team. Fox shines which knocks the opponent forward, Falco shines which sends them up, Fox jumps and follows with a B-air/N-air/U-Air.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Does this mean that ledge hogging is 100% gone? Is there any situation where you can hog the ledge like before, or has ledge stealing completely replaced that mechanic?

 

[ElectricCitrus]

So, I feel selfish coining this term, but if you guys get the chance at a demo, I'd love to test out Chainshining. Waveshining in the traditional sense (Fox reflector > wavedash > reflector > repeat) isn't possible in Smash 4, but in a Doubles scenario, a Fox/Fox (or Fox/Falco) team could potentially pull off something similar that would require both of their coordination, effort, and skill.

So, you shine your opponent, and your teammate jumps over you during endlag, shines, then you do the same, rinse and repeat until you end up with a Shine Spike. I'd be willing to bet that there would be similar setups between Fox and Falco on the same team. Fox shines which knocks the opponent forward, Falco shines which sends them up, Fox jumps and follows with a B-air/N-air/U-Air.

I'd be willing to test this on Saturday with my friend, and nice job on coining the term. Personally I was gonna suggest calling it the Frog-Shining but chainshining sounds good too ;p

 

[Bobojack]

Shinehopping would've benn good too. But ElectricCircus record it please, if it works. And also: throw to LittleMacs OHKO is probably also going to be a good doubles combo. And Villager+ Projectile Characters to pocket their projectiles. Or teaming with Diddy as Villager to pocket one banana with his neutral b and collect one from the ground to be able to throw 2 in a row afterwards. OOh man the possibilities..

 

[ElectricCitrus]

I'll record it if I can get it to work in the two minutes we'd have, and if they let me record it. Mechanically I don't see any reason for it not to, but humans add a unique element of unpredictability you don't get on paper. I'll see what I can do though.

 

[Aninymouse]

Yes, I saw that. On the 1v1 match where Ken was playing Lilo on Coliseum Town and City. That dair was perfectly tippered, yet there was no meteor/spike.

I'm not sure how tethers work at all in the Smash series, since I never really played a tether recovery character. Can they be on the ledge at the same time as a regular ledge grab? That happens in PM all the time. Can you guys fill me in? I know that there are new ledge mechanics, such as being able to knock characters off the ledge. What is this based on, does anyone know? I see that ledge invincibility is pretty short though.

I think a good team composition might be a good aerial character (spikes are pretty nice) such as Kirby or Pit with a ground based one, such as Little Mac. They could easily knock them off stage and the aerially dominant character could be making sure they don't get back, while the ground based one keeps the other opponent away.

It looks like the aerial game might have to be focused on since there are new ledgegrabbing mechanics.

This is like... my first time ever theorycrafting, so I probably just plopped down a buncha crap in front of you guys. I'll get better if you guys could give me some tips.

EDIT: I found the match where they were playing and Ken got the tipper. Start watching from 6:39:45.

I think Marth's Dair works like this, since I played Marth yesterday at Best Buy: Tip does not meteor, but a broadside hit does. Just straight up hitting them with the whole sword. I got at least 3 on-stage meteors with Marth's Dair by using it at close range. The meteor looks really powerful, to me. They added some kind of flashy effect to it or something, too, but that might have been the high percent effect. I was too hyped and the match was too crazy for me to pay any attention to percents. Hard to go off memory alone, since my camera wasn't good enough to record the TV properly (too bright & blurry), but that's what I remember.

I'm not a Marth main BY ANY MEANS, so I couldn't reliably land tippers, anyway. But I've played Marth just enough, and seen so many matches of him at work, to feel confident in my assessment.

 

[Oddyesy]

I think Marth's Dair works like this, since I played Marth yesterday at Best Buy: Tip does not meteor, but a broadside hit does. Just straight up hitting them with the whole sword. I got at least 3 on-stage meteors with Marth's Dair by using it at close range. The meteor looks really powerful, to me. They added some kind of flashy effect to it or something, too, but that might have been the high percent effect. I was too hyped and the match was too crazy for me to pay any attention to percents. Hard to go off memory alone, since my camera wasn't good enough to record the TV properly (too bright & blurry), but that's what I remember.

I'm not a Marth main BY ANY MEANS, so I couldn't reliably land tippers, anyway. But I've played Marth just enough, and seen so many matches of him at work, to feel confident in my assessment.

That is very odd. I saw Ken try to use tippers all day but it wasn't working haha. So they just made it tons easier to meteor? Alright then.

 

[Sun & Moon]

So, I feel selfish coining this term, but if you guys get the chance at a demo, I'd love to test out Chainshining. Waveshining in the traditional sense (Fox reflector > wavedash > reflector > repeat) isn't possible in Smash 4, but in a Doubles scenario, a Fox/Fox (or Fox/Falco) team could potentially pull off something similar that would require both of their coordination, effort, and skill.

So, you shine your opponent, and your teammate jumps over you during endlag, shines, then you do the same, rinse and repeat until you end up with a Shine Spike. I'd be willing to bet that there would be similar setups between Fox and Falco on the same team. Fox shines which knocks the opponent forward, Falco shines which sends them up, Fox jumps and follows with a B-air/N-air/U-Air.

From what I've seen, the last hit of Fox's d-air sends the enemy upwards, so I don't think that's possible.

 

[Fortress]

From what I've seen, the last hit of Fox's d-air sends the enemy upwards, so I don't think that's possible.

I think you misunderstood me. What I'm talking about, if Fox shines > teammate shines > you shine again > and so on. Or on a Falco team, Fox shines > Falco shines > Fox jumps up for the B-Air/U-Air finisher. No D-airs involved.

Does this mean that ledge hogging is 100% gone? Is there any situation where you can hog the ledge like before, or has ledge stealing completely replaced that mechanic?

It is, but don't think of it as 'being gone', instead, think of the game of edge-guarding as being changed. The focus has shifted from ledge-play, to off-stage play, and meatier aerial battles. The game of edgeplay is now about steals and setups, from the look of it. Don't think of it as having a mechanic being gone, because the game has evolved to its own level. You'll have a much more positive look on it that way lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

Late as hell up in here but reading your first post, yeah, this game looks like it may actually be meant for a 4 player environment structurally rather than as a secondary thing. Team combos might actually have more flow and less disjoint especially if the KB remains how it is. I think a doubles oriented game would be very interesting.

 

[Sun & Moon]

I think you misunderstood me. What I'm talking about, if Fox shines > teammate shines > you shine again > and so on. Or on a Falco team, Fox shines > Falco shines > Fox jumps up for the B-Air/U-Air finisher. No D-airs involved.

Ok then, sorry.
But if Falco keeps his Brawl reflector, will this still work?

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Ok then, sorry.
But if Falco keeps his Brawl reflector, will this still work?

Most likely because iirc even though his reflector moves it still knocks opponents upwards. If anything this will make the combo harder but more stylish/take less distance to fully complete.

 

[Fortress]

Ok then, sorry.
But if Falco keeps his Brawl reflector, will this still work?

There would be completely different setups and follow-ups, but I imagine so. Fox Shines > Falco shines from a distance. Basically the same thing I'm assuming, barring trajectory on Falcoshine in Smash4.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Just thought of an interesting combo that might work which involves exploiting how Greninja has a spike that continues until he lands meaning you could use it high in the air for initial contact and then have your partner keep knocking the opponent back into the spike. Idk how this would work practically or if at all but its a thought.

 

[Fortress]

Just thought of an interesting combo that might work which involves exploiting how Greninja has a spike that continues until he lands meaning you could use it high in the air for initial contact and then have your partner keep knocking the opponent back into the spike. Idk how this would work practically or if at all but its a thought.

If Peach's float works in a manner that allows it, she can float and continually D-Air...

 

[Nstinct]

I think the new mechanic is creative. It's different from PM/Melee like you said, but that's not a bad thing. Also competitive doubles would be interesting, all smash games have competitive casual doubles. It'd be quite different if the hype of the competitive scene were doubles instead of singles though. That'd be very interesting!

 

[Fortress]

That's what I'm personally really hoping to see. Smash 4 Singles (and Brawl Singles, for that matter) isn't really my scene, I like the excitement, pace, and skillsets involved in Melee/PM 1v1, but Doubles has always been a crapshoot. Too fast, too zany, and really difficult to form consistent synergies and strategies. Things seem to happen pretty haphazardly, and it just gets sort of overwhelming. The slow pace of Smash 4 might not make for the ideal Singles environment that I enjoy, but the mechanics should make for some excellent team play.

 

[ChillySundance]

I'm actually interested in the new ledge mechanics from a singles perspective.

It looks like you can kick someone off the ledge the second they grab it, and then immediately ledge cancel and attempt to knock them away with an aerial attack.

If your opponent is expecting it though, they also seem like they might be able to counter your attempt with an aerial attack of their own.

What does this mean for ledge guarding in general? It means that there's now a lot more counterplay and interactivity for both aggressor and defender, which from a competitive standpoint is GOOD. Once you've taken the ledge from someone, are you going let the grab the ledge again so that they lose their invulnerability? Are you going to risk using your double jump to let go of the ledge and hit them with a Bair or spike? Are they going to use their up B to try to stay clear of you completely or perhaps attempt to bounce you off the side of the stage for a KO? I can see it getting really interesting when we figure out each character's options, especially for very air-mobile characters.

 

[Fortress]

What I personally think it means, is that ledge-hogging is going to take a backseat to off-stage aerial play. Expect to see more players going out there and battling it out in the air. I think there's a period of time in which you can't act after a steal, or after being stolen from. I'm almost positive of that, actually, but if anybody who's been playing the demo can confirm that, that'd be great.

 

[Oddyesy]

What I personally think it means, is that ledge-hogging is going to take a backseat to off-stage aerial play. Expect to see more players going out there and battling it out in the air. I think there's a period of time in which you can't act after a steal, or after being stolen from. I'm almost positive of that, actually, but if anybody who's been playing the demo can confirm that, that'd be great.

So basically Melee Roy is dumpster tier in this.

... I'm not ok with this.

 

[Fortress]

So basically Melee Roy is dumpster tier in this.

... I'm not ok with this.

Naturally there are going to be characters who are better at supporting from on-stage. Roy jumps in, snags the ledge, teammate goes out for the kill, Roy protects the teammate from on-stage from the other opponent.

Besides, Roy's not even in Smash 4.

 

[Oddyesy]

Naturally there are going to be characters who are better at supporting from on-stage. Roy jumps in, snags the ledge, teammate goes out for the kill, Roy protects the teammate from on-stage from the other opponent.

Besides, Roy's not even in Smash 4.

I know. Just hypothetical.

 

[Hitzel]

This is making me wonder.. how long is the player stealing the ledge unable to move in these situations?

I'm imagining Link knocking someone away, throwing a bomb in the air, and using the hitstun of the bomb to "cancel" his period of being frozen on the ledge after stealing it, sending him right towards the "frozen" player who just got ledgerobbed.

Probably wouldn't work, but I wonder if any characters will have ways to cancel their ledgefreeze state and attack the robbed player before he/she can do anything about it.

 

[ChillySundance]

What I personally think it means, is that ledge-hogging is going to take a backseat to off-stage aerial play. Expect to see more players going out there and battling it out in the air. I think there's a period of time in which you can't act after a steal, or after being stolen from. I'm almost positive of that, actually, but if anybody who's been playing the demo can confirm that, that'd be great.

It's been discussed pretty in-depth over in the 'Smash 4 Analysis by a guy who likes camping' thread. Apparently, grabbing the ledge feels similar to Brawl, so there is a tiny amount of delay when grabbing it. However, it does seem like the person who grabs the ledge gets to move first, but the person getting trumped gets their 2nd jump back.

Even if this puts you both at a neutral situation, the person grabbing the ledge is in a prime position to drop down and double jump > bair the enemy off the stage if they don't air dodge and/or counter them with a high aerial priority attack.

I forsee this having a potentially rich "rock paper scissors" kind of minimeta within itself.

Anyway, all we have to do is find some footage of someone grabbing the ledge and letting go of it immediately and we'll be able to compare times. I'm going to go hunting for that right now.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Okay so after two matches with fox here is my initial thoughts on Chainshining/Frogshining/Super Duper Leapfrog U. It appears to be possible but holy **** will it take A LOT of work from both team members to take the opponent all the way to the edge, in my first match my friend and I managed to get one off before we messed up the timing (didn't help this was free for all), and on our second we managed to get about three in before I accidentally got my friend with the shine as well.

Wasn't able to get footage because they wouldn't let me, but there you go: it's seemingly possibly but it'll be a very long and arduous process to get it perfected. It might not even be in the final product too. :/

 

[Bobojack]

Thanks! Im looking forwar to see some Super Duper Leapfrog U's in Doubles. It would probably so hype to get a 0-death Chainshine on stream.

 

[Fortress]

I'm glad to know that it's possible. I think all that it'll come down to is honing the technique, and finding more efficient ways to do it. Like, maybe shine > jump > shine > jump > shine > and so on isn't the most effective way to do it. Maybe shine > teammate grabs > you shine > they shine > or some other similar mixup is more effective. Thanks for going through the effort to test this tech out.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Oh for sure Fortress, in fact it seems like shine > jump >shine >jump> spike isn't the best way to go about it because A.) it takes to long (relatively) and B.) The other teammate isn't accounted for, allowing a fairly easy disruption of the combo

This basically means there are three scenarios where I can see the traditional (shine, jump, shine, jump) technique working as intended

1.) Beginning of the match with total surprise
2.) When one teammate has perished completely, leaving the other alone
3.) Against a team that is fairly incompetent

Otherwise we will need to find much more efficient, deadlier, and above all quicker means of doing Chainshines (we should all agree on one set name btw). That said, outside of the three practical uses of traditional chainshining/frogshing/super duper leap frog U it seems like it'd be a really effective tech for wracking up damage, meaning you don't necessarily have to use it for the purpose of KOing.

And yes, it'll be very hype to see it pulled off flawlessly. I'm excited to test this thing like nonstop once Smash 4 drops.

EDIT: Had to clarify some stuff and also I thought of something else,

It may only work against some characters BUT it appears that you could potentially lock BOTH opponents into this tech if you got the timing and placement just right. Or if as you're going along, one opponent attempts to disrupt it but ends up misfiring and getting caught in it themselves. This might require further testing, and may not be really applicable against actual human beings but just something that crossed my mind.

 

[Fortress]

Oh for sure Fortress, in fact it seems like shine > jump >shine >jump> spike isn't the best way to go about it because A.) it takes to long (relatively) and B.) The other teammate isn't accounted for, allowing a fairly easy disruption of the combo

This basically means there are three scenarios where I can see the traditional (shine, jump, shine, jump) technique working as intended

1.) Beginning of the match with total surprise
2.) When one teammate has perished completely, leaving the other alone
3.) Against a team that is fairly incompetent

Otherwise we will need to find much more efficient, deadlier, and above all quicker means of doing Chainshines (we should all agree on one set name btw). That said, outside of the three practical uses of traditional chainshining/frogshing/super duper leap frog U it seems like it'd be a really effective tech for wracking up damage, meaning you don't necessarily have to use it for the purpose of KOing.

And yes, it'll be very hype to see it pulled off flawlessly. I'm excited to test this thing like nonstop once Smash 4 drops.

EDIT: Had to clarify some stuff and also I thought of something else,

It may only work against some characters BUT it appears that you could potentially lock BOTH opponents into this tech if you got the timing and placement just right. Or if as you're going along, one opponent attempts to disrupt it but ends up misfiring and getting caught in it themselves. This might require further testing, and may not be really applicable against actual human beings but just something that crossed my mind.

I think 'chain-shining' is the most-fitting term, since 'frog-shining' implies that there has to be a jump, where 'chain-shining' does not. I also considered the possibility of catching two opponents at once in it, but, it does seem like something that's pretty impossible if not extremely difficult to do. I agree that it'll be a tactic that comes alive once it's down to 2v1. The Fox/Fox team has a lot of options that open up once the other team is outnumbered.

I'm thinking that Fox1 Shine > Fox2 Grab > Fox1 Shine > Fox2 Grab > Fox2 U-throw > Fox1 U-Air could be a potential combo, and easier to perform than both Foxes shining. Throws in general seem to act like Smash 64 throws in that they're powerful, but not particularly meant to be followed up on. So, the classic Chillin' (Fox U-Throw > U-Air) could be pulled off between two Foxes since the recovery time on throws makes it hard or impossible for just one. Thoughts?

 

[ElectricCitrus]

That could work, it'd require a degree of "right time, right place'" on the part of the second fox, but if done right might be a good way to do it. Also, another thought along that line is having a Fox/Falco where Fox does the throw, and Falco does the down A to spike the opponent backdown.

EDIT: on the subject of semantics and naming, I too like chain-shining but I feel like it could also serve as a blanket term for any Double combo involving two or more shines being linked between teammates. Then the various methods of achieving this could end up with their own names. Or not. I'm fine with whatever.

 

[Bobojack]

We could name it Chainshining and there would be many ways to perform a Chainshine: Frogshining, Grabshining... Whatevershining.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Precisely what I was getting at Bobojack. Now, as much as I love discussing chainshining we should also start breaking down and analyzing footage to come up with more doubles techs.

 

[Renji64]

Doubles could turn out pretty dope.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Doubles could turn out pretty dope.

The more I reflect on it after playing it, the more I think it'll turn out dope. I'm pumped.