Adaptability trumps tech skill?

[Prince Longstrok]

Hello my friends- I come here today to bring up a rather interesting topic Ive had on my mind.

In short, Last night at my Smash get together, noticed something- When playing my friends, who do not have any technical skill at all (They dont even know what im talking about when I say L-cancel, SHFFL, etc..) would occasionally beat me, someone who studies the game every day and practices constantly and who makes use of all my tech skill.

Now, seeing as they take the game soo casually, I took it as a devastating defeat when I did not beat them every single time. in fact, I wasnt satisfied if it got down to the final stock and I still one. After a break, I tired a different tactic.. Being casuals, they were very prone to whiffing a lot, and very much a "acting in the moment" sort of playstyle. As I took a deep breath, and exploited their mistakes, I noticed myself 2 and 3 stocking them consistently- until I went back to the old playstyle of trying to tech as much as I can, and I then lost a few times yet again. So I ask you..

Is adaptability more important than pure tech skill? For example- things that casuals consider "cheap" such as marios neutral special spam. Tech skill will not save you by itself with that- you have to ADAPT, and upon doing so you can punish the HELL out of said player.

All those nights spent in training learning to wave dash, L-cancel, SHFFL, all of it, just to get beat by casuals really makes you re-think things. :o (Im a Ganon main, so those tech skills are almost mandatory to be viable.)

What are your thoughts on this subject? Have I been wrong all this time to think that constant practice with tech skill is what you needed to improve?

 

[SixSaw]

For the most part, yeah, adaptability is more important. Obviously past a certain point you need both, but the thing about grinding tech is that while it will help you perform desired actions more efficiently/reliably, it won't offer real tangible benefit until you learn how actually to apply the tech in real matches.

An anecdote: @ Lazarond , a Link player, took a set off of Kels not too long ago at one of our locals despite not knowing pretty much any flashy Link-specific **** or ATs besides L-canceling and AGT at the time. The dude's fundamentals were so godlike it didn't matter.

 

[Empyrean]

You do not need tech skill to beat casuals, only Marth's Fsmash.

On a more serious note, as I often play with my casual friends, I myself have realized that tech skill is not required to beat them. I personally use it as an opportunity to explore my mains a bit further, see what strings into what and practice reading my opponents (no matter how irrelevant it may be for higher levels). I play Ganon too, and I have absolutely no problem 4-stocking them: you just need to know what move works and what move doesn't. Raw tech skill will only take you so far.

First off, like you said so yourself, it could be fairly easy to spot some habits your friends have (such as always using dash attacks, or using too many specials repeatedly). Often times, exploiting these habits should be enough to beat them regularly. Shffling Ganon's fairs could be useful most of the time, along with stomping them offstage. Truth be told, even down-b would work fine.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that your practice sessions have gone to waste. Getting used to performing the techniques is very important, but throwing them all out with no point will get you nowhere. You will have to integrate them in your game at your pace, figuring out the uses of each, where to do them, where not to do them, etc.

Take my little bro for example. He knows about tech skill and comboing and all that stuff, yet he lost to my friend who only kept rolling behind him and fsmashing him. People just don't understand that having tech skill alone is not a guaranty of being better than others. You could be able to do some cool-ass tricks in, say, basketball, but what's the point if you're having trouble throwing the ball at the net. In a real match, you wouldn't be able to do ****, even against a low-level team.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Thanks you two

It all makes soo much sense. Atleast now when I will already have some experience in tech skill once I hit the point where I will have to use them to compete

 

[Lazarond]

seesaw so kind :o i call it a sense of reading their mind... or a sense of picking up common human tendancies in a way... if i kno ur tech skill as on point then ill just expect it and act accordingly u kno? look at hungrybox.. he is the prime example of showing that u dont need all tech skill to take it all the way

 

[Da-bomber]

I can 4 stock any casual friends or family with ganon by using down tilt and ftilt.

 

[Fortress]

They both go hand-in-hand, to be honest. Tech skill and advanced knowledge only supplement how one adapts to whatever situation is thrown at them. Having more tools at your disposal only increases the amount of problems you can overcome.

 

[9bit]

Basically yes. Being able to read and/or predict your opponent will win you more games than mindless tech skill. I am ****ing wasted right now. Drunkbit. Point is, when people first start learning, practicing their tech skill, they often lose a lot. More than usual. But you should stick with it until this tech skill becomes second nature and you can fully incorporate it into your game, then it's really helpful to work on other things. Like watching your opponent -- feeling them out. See if you can notice any patterns and then take advantage of that. Force them (if you can) to do certain things and punish those.

I am really drunk.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

I appreciate all your responses guys

 

[Empyrean]

Thanks you two

It all makes soo much sense. Atleast now when I will already have some experience in tech skill once I hit the point where I will have to use them to compete

Exactly. Until then, just have fun with your friends, mess around with moves and stuff. I've tried playing with my friends showcasing all my tech skill, they don't even notice, nor ask you what you are doing (well at least usually). Some of them even thought that edgehogging was a move on its own and that dashdancing was an attack. It's when you do some combos or gimping that they are amazed and might even be inspired to get better.

 

[Koga_]

Adaptability >

It's the foundation of most good players in any game

 

[Mera Mera]

While adaptability is a part of this, I think it would be more accurate to say that playing smart > tech skill.

A lot of the game is risk management, and people aren't picky enough about the risks they make. Generally speaking low risk is more important than high reward, and risking nothing > risking space > getting hit.

Don't treat them like they can't hit you just 'cause they're worse than you. Keep baiting until you see a legitimately good opening (be picky) or until they miss you and you can punish.

 

[chaosscizzors]

often when i'm performing poorly i will purposely stop using a lot of flashy tech and just try to force my opponent to play slower by playing extremely safe and sticking to fundamentals. from there i have all the time in the world to study their behavior and devise a battle strategy. once i have a plan set and i feel comfortable i'll go for my planned punish. if it works a couple of times then i'll start to ramp things back up a bit and go for a surprise hypedestructogon combo but generally i think i perform much better when i'm not trying to be technical and instead i'm just simply trying to manipulate my opponent.

 

[krazyzyko]

You sound like you started using AT's not too long ago and you're having trouble integrating it to your new evolving style.
You'll get there eventually. About the OP l believe both tech skill and adaptability go hand in hand on the competitive scene. So try develop both as much as possible.

 

[Oracle]

Imo risk management is a crutch a lot of decent players rely on. Its very important as a skill but past a certain point it becomes less useful

 

[Phyvo]

I just played PM for the first time on Thursday (after watching weeklies for awhile I decided to finally cut my teeth on competitive smash) and while I felt I could fairly well tell what people were going to do a good portion of the time it didn't really matter because either (a) I fat fingered my buttons, missed important inputs, spaced improperly, and just generally screwed up whatever answer I had or (b) I had no idea how to answer in the first place so it didn't matter that I could see it coming from a mile away. Maybe some of those were things I couldn't even answer without tech skill, I don't know.

Needless to say though as someone who has nearly no tech skill my conclusion was that tech skill is pretty important. Granted it's not exactly the same as my general execution problem but in my mind they're quite related as they both relate to correct button inputs rather than choosing the correct pressure and response.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Thanks spo much guys!

Use tech skills to accent your general skills, i have to remember that c:

 

[Mera Mera]

Imo risk management is a crutch a lot of decent players rely on. Its very important as a skill but past a certain point it becomes less useful

Yeah, that's fair. Playing smart > tech skill is a bit of an over statement.

@ Prince Longstrok in this circumstance I think what's happening, is you're neglecting your spacing and/or smart play in order to concentrate on tech skill. Tech skill is needed for high level play, and you should still definitely work on it. You should try to learn it well enough for it to be second nature (so you can still pay full attention to your opponent, rather than your character), but there is always that awkward 'learning to apply it in a match' phase where you will lose for awhile at first, but it will make you better in the long run.

I will say though that not all tech skill is equally useful. While you ultimately should be able to do most if not all things with your main, I would concentrate on the more useful skills first.

shffling, dash dancing, fox trotting, out of shield options (grab and jump -> aerial out of shield at least), and sweet spotting the ledge are probably good things to perfect first.

Tech chasing on reaction is pretty important too (imo), but you might want to get movement tech down first (including waveland and wavedash).

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Yeah, that's fair. Playing smart > tech skill is a bit of an over statement.

@ Prince Longstrok in this circumstance I think what's happening, is you're neglecting your spacing and/or smart play in order to concentrate on tech skill. Tech skill is needed for high level play, and you should still definitely work on it. You should try to learn it well enough for it to be second nature (so you can still pay full attention to your opponent, rather than your character), but there is always that awkward 'learning to apply it in a match' phase where you will lose for awhile at first, but it will make you better in the long run.

I will say though that not all tech skill is equally useful. While you ultimately should be able to do most if not all things with your main, I would concentrate on the more useful skills first.

shffling, dash dancing, fox trotting, out of shield options (grab and jump -> aerial out of shield at least), and sweet spotting the ledge are probably good things to perfect first.

Tech chasing on reaction is pretty important too (imo), but you might want to get movement tech down first (including waveland and wavedash).

I have taken to wavelanding/dashing to apply ftilts and dtilts as an alternative approach. Working on techchasing c: as well as implimenting my (incredibly short) into my combo game. Found out i can grab out of flame choke ^-^

SHFFLing my nairs works wonders as well, and a dashdance into backwards facing wavedash forward i to the kitty gauntlet (bair) is a really nice AND useful tech skill that give immediate results.

Working on no longer wavedashing just to wavedash- its now something i do to fall off platforms for a sneaky aerial, or to give a surprise reach with my tilts c:

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ganon's nair autocancels out of a SH fast fall, no need to l-cancel.
That's why it works so well. It can be followed up instantly with jab/ftit/SH shenanigans/etc.

 

[Mera Mera]

I have taken to wavelanding/dashing to apply ftilts and dtilts as an alternative approach. Working on techchasing c: as well as implimenting my (incredibly short) into my combo game. Found out i can grab out of flame choke ^-^

SHFFLing my nairs works wonders as well, and a dashdance into backwards facing wavedash forward i to the kitty gauntlet (bair) is a really nice AND useful tech skill that give immediate results.

Working on no longer wavedashing just to wavedash- its now something i do to fall off platforms for a sneaky aerial, or to give a surprise reach with my tilts c:

While not useless, be careful about approaching with wavedash. Air dodge has 10 frames of landing lag plus jump squat gives wavedash some start up frames as well. If you waveland (or wavedash) on a platform and slide right off the ledge, that will cancel your air dodge landing lag, so that's more practical for approaches than just wavedashing (at least for Ganon).

If you want to use bair to start a confrontation I would either RAR (if you don't know what this is, ask), or I would simply dash away (assuming I was already dash dancing/fox trotting) then jump backwards at them.

Ganon's waveland is considerably longer than his wavedash, and thus a good bit more useful.

Also how are you getting a grab from Ganon's flame choke? I could see it if they did a tech stand, or a no tech (if he has a way to reset them, and I'm not aware that he does), but I feel like he couldn't possibly follow tech rolls fast enough which his dash/run.

 

[Phaiyte]

I preach this **** all the time. You can be the most tech skill savvy man in the world, but that alone will never guarantee you a win. Fundamentals are what win games.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I guess I'm just good at reading then. Whenever I see me friends do something exploitable, I punish them hard for it and then remind them not to do it again because it's stupid.

*waits for Neutral B to finish charging* *Quickdraw* "Stop using Flare Blade in neutral."

*clank out Din's Fire until Zelda approaches* *shield grab* "Stop approaching with dash attack."

*shield Spin Attack* *Dthrow to Doc Fair* "Stop spamming Up-B."

Idk, patterns are easy to find and punish. Don't walk into hitboxes.

 

[9bit]

^ I think your friends are really bad

 

[CORY]

Also how are you getting a grab from Ganon's flame choke? I could see it if they did a tech stand, or a no tech (if he has a way to reset them, and I'm not aware that he does), but I feel like he couldn't possibly follow tech rolls fast enough which his dash/run.

some characters are the right combination of floaty and large to grab them out of an aerial flame choke. the best example is zard. the timing's a little tight, but it's doable (maybe not fi they di away?)

 

[Fortress]

Ganon's shenanigans

Gananigans.

 

[Tryst]

Yeah, I'd day that Tech skill is definately incredibly useful and so is being able to adapt. Many different players have many different ways of playing smash. That is one of the things I love about it, but it also makes it incredibly challenging because you have to be flexible and be able to adapt to so many different play styles. For example, as a sonic main I know there are many many different ways to use sonic because I play a different way then say, Nazo or TwicH uses him. and I would (If I ever played them) have to adapt because of the different ways. But even with that I would think that you need ATs to help you adapt or be very effective at doing so.

So in short, I'd say that they just go hand in hand. ATs help you in adapting a lot and adapting is very important and so therefor your Tech skill with those ATs is very important to. But that is just my opinion, there are many different ways to view this question.

 

[Phaiyte]

It doesn't matter how good your techskill is. If your fundamentals are abysmal, you will lose.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

^ I think your friends are really bad

You have. No idea.

 

[Fortress]

It doesn't matter how good your techskill is. If your fundamentals are abysmal, you will lose.

On the other hand, fundamentals are only going to carry you so far without the tools to execute them more effectively.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

On the other hand, fundamentals are only going to carry you so far without the tools to execute them more effectively.

Chu really makes it seem like fundies are all you need, though. Not drawing any inferences from that but the dude is mad good.

 

[Fortress]

Chu really makes it seem like fundies are all you need, though. Not drawing any inferences from that but the dude is mad good.

Eh, I still think it's an even fifty-fifty. I mean, I suppose to some extent it's going to depend on your character pick (you're hardly going to be AGT'ing as, say, Ganondorf after all), but I think the two go hand-in-hand. Advanced tech is just as important as knowing the basics. No one is more important than the other.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, that's it really.

a) You gotta know what the right buttons to press are in any given situation.

b) You have to be able to press those buttons properly.

That's what it boils down to.

 

[Phaiyte]

On the other hand, fundamentals are only going to carry you so far without the tools to execute them more effectively.

The point I'm mostly making is for newer players, and even some "veteran" players that still suck. People start focusing on tech and literally never become any good because they don't even realize fundamentals exist. They can be as tech savvy as Dark and still lose just as much to the same bad players. Fundamentals may only get you so far at first, but tech will get you /nowhere/ without it.

 

[Fortress]

I've been there. Said plenty of **** like "why are my friends beating me when I know wavedashing/l-cancelling/shield-grabbing/SHFFL'ing/teching/DI/etc. and they don't use any of that". Took me a while to finally consistently get past two of the guys in our group. I figured out a lot on the way, and they picked up a bunch of tech at the same time.

 

[TylerX5]

Hello my friends- I come here today to bring up a rather interesting topic Ive had on my mind.

In short, Last night at my Smash get together, noticed something- When playing my friends, who do not have any technical skill at all (They dont even know what im talking about when I say L-cancel, SHFFL, etc..) would occasionally beat me, someone who studies the game every day and practices constantly and who makes use of all my tech skill.

Now, seeing as they take the game soo casually, I took it as a devastating defeat when I did not beat them every single time. in fact, I wasnt satisfied if it got down to the final stock and I still one. After a break, I tired a different tactic.. Being casuals, they were very prone to whiffing a lot, and very much a "acting in the moment" sort of playstyle. As I took a deep breath, and exploited their mistakes, I noticed myself 2 and 3 stocking them consistently- until I went back to the old playstyle of trying to tech as much as I can, and I then lost a few times yet again. So I ask you..

Is adaptability more important than pure tech skill? For example- things that casuals consider "cheap" such as marios neutral special spam. Tech skill will not save you by itself with that- you have to ADAPT, and upon doing so you can punish the HELL out of said player.

All those nights spent in training learning to wave dash, L-cancel, SHFFL, all of it, just to get beat by casuals really makes you re-think things. :o (Im a Ganon main, so those tech skills are almost mandatory to be viable.)

What are your thoughts on this subject? Have I been wrong all this time to think that constant practice with tech skill is what you needed to improve?

If this is happening to you it means that tech skill is taking up too much of your focus. Tech needs to be second nature to used in a way that improves your gameplay, and until it becomes second nature it will be a training weight. You can forgo trying to do tech skill but it is short sighted. That said of course all the other stuff besides tech skill maters, spacing well, good offense & defense, reads, and stage control are very important factors.

 

[D-idara]

I see you got a lot of good answers, but you call your own friends 'casuals' like it's an insult...

Also, a more appropiate importance balance of tech and fundamentals shouldn't be 50-50, techs should be like 10% or 20% of what you need, because the simpler the game, the better.