Aack! Help with Fox?

[FE_Hector]

So, I have finally advanced past my brother's Sheik in most battles. (His reads on me remain what allow him to win, more videos coming soon .) Anyway, at a tournament the other day, I got whipped in pre-match friendlies by a Fox. Why it had to be Fox, I don't know. Anyway, I was proud of myself for actually managing to take off 2 stocks from him with tournament settings on. I've seen him do a few wavelands, and he'll wavedash occasionally to alter his positioning. He kept reading whatever I tried to do in the air (whether it be an aerial dodge or a random counter), and I felt like I spent most of the battle trying to escape the shines, grabs, tilts, and occasional fsmash. My biggest issue was that I was dead as soon as he got me off of the edge. If I was successful in grabbing the edge past his edge-hogging fsmashes, I couldn't find an out. If I tried to use an attack to recover, his fsmash beat it out, and jumping out of it left me open due to the fact that I was unable to attack for a fairly large amount of time afterwards. Admittedly, I did not try rolling, but I feel like he would've dashed in to short hop shine me and put me right back in the same sticky situation. He agreed to do friendlies against me (probably every week or two), but I'm wondering if you have any tips before we actually fight. For the little bit that it's actually worth, I've been fighting lvl9 Fox/Falco CPUs to try and improve my grab/follow up skills and to speed my Marth up in general. Watching the 2015 Apex Grand Finals (both sets) did give me some ideas for how to get away from him and land more hits, but seriously, I'm struggling. So once again, HELP

 

[Stride]

Taking into account your videos from earlier, the biggest piece of advice I can give is that you shouldn't just be content with getting a hit in; you should think about the purposes behind your actions and try to make the optimal choices. Don't autopilot, and especially don't autopilot with extremely unreliable options. If you're doing something that's getting you hit, think "what am I actually trying to accomplish with my option?", and "is there an alternative option that could be better?". Using counter as an example: if you hit then you'll get 7% and a reset to neutral; if you miss, then your opponent can punish you with almost anything they want (and it's extremely easy to avoid so it will miss often). Therefore it should be used rarely, and mainly in situations where your options are limited and the small reward is relatively good (such as when trapped by the ledge).

Learn techskill properly; regardless of how much you improve your mental game you're extremely limited if you can't control your character effectively. For example, if you can't wavedash (I haven't seen you do it much if at all), then you have poorer out of shield options, poorer ledge options, dashing is a huge commitment, platform movement is nearly non-existent, certain combo setups are impossible, you can't grab the ledge as quickly, and so on.

If you're getting edgeguarded by forward smash then you're missing your ledge sweetspots. Also, all of Marth's aerials (in fact, almost all of Marth's moveset) outspace Fox's forward smash; and it's punishable on shield and on whiff (from spotdodge, intangible ledge waveland, dash-dance, etc.).

Keep airdodges and counters to a minimum. Keep punishable, low reward options in general (forward smashes in neutral at low percent, dash attacks at low percent, down aerials in neutral, etc.) to a minimum.

Dash-dance more and better.

Down tilt in neutral (watch PPMD).

Consciously mix up your ledge options.

Fastfall when you get shined by the ledge to grab it faster.

Shield and shieldgrab (in your videos I never saw you shield except against needles). Shieldgrab is extremely strong, especially against bad players who can't consistently get around it with better spacing/timing/mixups (making any attempts at attacking your shield heavily skewed in your favour). Grabs in general are extremely strong in Melee.

Use low-level computers instead of level 9s.

 

[FE_Hector]

Taking into account your videos from earlier, the biggest piece of advice I can give is that you shouldn't just be content with getting a hit in; you should think about the purposes behind your actions and try to make the optimal choices. Don't autopilot, and especially don't autopilot with extremely unreliable options. If you're doing something that's getting you hit, think "what am I actually trying to accomplish with my option?", and "is there an alternative option that could be better?". Using counter as an example: if you hit then you'll get 7% and a reset to neutral; if you miss, then your opponent can punish you with almost anything they want (and it's extremely easy to avoid so it will miss often). Therefore it should be used rarely, and mainly in situations where your options are limited and the small reward is relatively good (such as when trapped by the ledge).

Learn techskill properly; regardless of how much you improve your mental game you're extremely limited if you can't control your character effectively. For example, if you can't wavedash (I haven't seen you do it much if at all), then you have poorer out of shield options, poorer ledge options, dashing is a huge commitment, platform movement is nearly non-existent, certain combo setups are impossible, you can't grab the ledge as quickly, and so on.

If you're getting edgeguarded by forward smash then you're missing your ledge sweetspots. Also, all of Marth's aerials (in fact, almost all of Marth's moveset) outspace Fox's forward smash; and it's punishable on shield and on whiff (from spotdodge, intangible ledge waveland, dash-dance, etc.).

Keep airdodges and counters to a minimum. Keep punishable, low reward options in general (forward smashes in neutral at low percent, dash attacks at low percent, down aerials in neutral, etc.) to a minimum.

Dash-dance more and better.

Down tilt in neutral (watch PPMD).

Consciously mix up your ledge options.

Fastfall when you get shined by the ledge to grab it faster.

Shield and shieldgrab (in your videos I never saw you shield except against needles). Shieldgrab is extremely strong, especially against bad players who can't consistently get around it with better spacing/timing/mixups (making any attempts at attacking your shield heavily skewed in your favour). Grabs in general are extremely strong in Melee.

Use low-level computers instead of level 9s.

So, to follow up your numerous tips... I have numerous questions/comments. I'll try to go in order.

1.) There is improvement from my earlier videos. I'm doing much better at avoiding the fsmash in neutral, counter in general, and repeated rolls. My character control has improved a good bit and my combo game is getting much better. I'll get more vids of my bro and I fighting up within the next day or two, hopefully tomorrow morning (US East Coast).

2.) Wavedashing... *sigh* Practice makes perfect, I suppose. I'm working a lot on my wavedashes, but using them in a battle is way different from using them for the little celebration across the stage and back I try to pull off. I am, however, able to use it consistently enough to get the quick edge grab to prevent the recovery.

3.) Thanks a ton for that info on the Marth aerials vs. Fox fsmash edge guard, and I know I've been missing my sweetspots, it's another practice makes perfect kinda thing.

4.) Dash dancing is something I can do quite well in terms of execution, but I can't really use it at all against my brother or computers at all because they don't really give a crap about it. My bro will use a lone needle, and a computer will run up to me and get grabbed just the same.

5.) Dtilting in neutral is something I've been working on a lot, and while it's not quite ready to take on that Fox, it's certainly getting there.

6.) Mixing up my ledge options is in the works. My bro almost never gets back on stage without losing a stock anymore. I can use any of my many Marth tactics to edgehog or simply force him onto the stage for big punishes.

7.) I'll remember about fastfalling against shines, and I've found a way to get out of the grab -> down throw -> shine with minimal damage and getting right back into the fray.

8.) The grabs and shield grabs are also in the works, definitely improving a lot (part of my use for CPUs). I'll work on advantageously using my shield, but what OoS options would you suggest?

9.)
a.) Why not fight lvl9 CPUs?
b.) What level do you suggest?

 

[Stride]

4.) Dash dancing is something I can do quite well in terms of execution, but I can't really use it at all against my brother or computers at all because they don't really give a crap about it. My bro will use a lone needle, and a computer will run up to me and get grabbed just the same.

This explanation will be somewhat rambling, but I think it gets the right idea across:
The thing with dash-dancing is that it's not useful without intention behind it; you have to establish that you moving into your opponent's space is threatening and that the opponent moving into your space is unsafe, so that they will respect your space. Once you've established the respect, you can "cover" multiple positions and options without actually occupying the space or committing to any one option, because you have the potential to cover any of them. This means your opponent always has some level of risk when acting. If you're dash-dancing and you just let your opponent hit you out of it without adapting and punishing them for trying, then of course they're going to ignore your dash-dancing; it's not actually accomplishing anything unless you make it.

The general idea is that if they attack you then you could dash away and punish, if they move away then you could take space, and if they do nothing then you could just run up and hit them. That's an extreme oversimplification, since both players usually have many options available to them to force risk and interaction from their opponent. One example is a situation where you and your opponent are both dash-dancing and your opponent dashes towards you. In this case, you want to dash away so that you can avoid their potential attack and punish. However, after they dash towards you, instead of attacking they dash back away, out of range of your potential punish; now you've given them some of your stage control. The reason these kinds of interactions happen is because dash-dancing makes your movement ambiguous; you want to dash away because your opponent moving forwards is a threat, however, you don't know for sure whether they're actually going to commit to moving forwards, or whether they're going to retreat afterwards. By moving forwards, your opponent forces you to make a decision.

If your brother is throwing needles at you, then stay closer so you can punish the needles out of shield.

Against computers, they're always going to just walk up to you no matter what you do. Pretend they're actually doing something and dash-dance around a little; do patterns (like long dash away, short dash towards, long dash back), and also try to "cover" what a human might do (with things like overshooting your dash in order to cover their dash back). Just generally try not to be mindless, and remember to be aware at all times that you're fighting a computer to practice, and never be concerned with actually "beating" it.

6.) Mixing up my ledge options is in the works. My bro almost never gets back on stage without losing a stock anymore. I can use any of my many Marth tactics to edgehog or simply force him onto the stage for big punishes.

"Ledge options" refers to options when you're on the ledge trying to stall or get back onstage. You're talking about edgeguarding. When edgeguarding, your absolute priority is to stop your opponent from getting onto the stage (unless you have a guaranteed opportunity to put them back off immediately); it doesn't matter if you don't kill them straight away or if you don't build much damage. Basically, for spacies you should cover jump and side-B first (with something like run off->double jump->fair or down tilt), and then react to the startup of up-B and cover that if they do it. Watch Mew2King.

8.) The grabs and shield grabs are also in the works, definitely improving a lot (part of my use for CPUs). I'll work on advantageously using my shield, but what OoS options would you suggest?

If he does anything laggy on your shield while in grab range, then grab him. This will be things like smash attacks, high aerials, and aerials with missed L-cancels. If his aerial is late/low enough then he'll be able to shine before you can grab (during your grab animation, causing you to get hit). If he doesn't do anything after the aerial->shine (such as a fadeaway nair, grab, or wavedash away/behind), then you can safely grab him anyway.

For out of shield options in general: roll from certain spacie pressure (including shine grabs and shine->aerial loops), wavedash out of shield if you don't need the intangibility (less committal, allows you to punish), instant forward aerial out of shield.

9.)
a.) Why not fight lvl9 CPUs?
b.) What level do you suggest?

CPUs are punching bags for practicing combos and edgeguards on, with some exceptions (such as running away from them to practice movement). Level 9s are not better than level 1s in this respect (if anything they're worse because of their particular DI), but they are worse in other respects because they will constantly approach you, grab you with 1-frame reactions when you shield, powershield at least half of your attacks (also with 1-frame reactions), jab you constantly, and just generally be obnoxious. Despite this, they are extremely stupid and can literally be JV5ed by just standing in place and forward smashing repeatedly. Trying to "outplay" a level 9 CPU is pointless at best and will build lots of bad habits at worst. They provide no advantage over lower-level CPUs, unless you want to practice running away from them (and not trying to hit them).

Use level 1 20XX CPUs (all levels have the same DI/teching), or if you can't use the 20XX pack then use various low-level CPUs depending on what DI you want.

So many new players practice on level 9s exclusively, or worse, use their ability to beat level 9s as a measure of their skill (when it's meaningless). It comes up all the time in new player advice/critique threads.

 

[FE_Hector]

This explanation will be somewhat rambling, but I think it gets the right idea across:
The thing with dash-dancing is that it's not useful without intention behind it; you have to establish that moving into your opponent's space is threatening and that the opponent moving into your space is unsafe, so that they will respect your space. Once you've established the respect, you can "cover" multiple positions and options without actually occupying the space or committing to any one option, because you have the potential to cover any of them. This means your opponent always has some level of risk when acting. If you're dash-dancing and you just let your opponent hit you out of it without adapting and punishing them for trying, then of course they're going to ignore your dash-dancing; it's not actually accomplishing anything unless you make it.

The general idea is that if they attack you then you could dash away and punish, if they move away then you could take space, and if they do nothing then you could just run up and hit them. That's an extreme oversimplification, since both players usually have many options available to them to force risk and interaction from their opponent. One example is a situation where you and your opponent are both dash-dancing and your opponent dashes towards you. In this case, you want to dash away so that you can avoid their potential attack and punish. However, after they dash towards you, instead of attacking they dash back away, out of range of your potential punish; now you've given them some of your stage control. The reason these kinds of interactions happen is because dash-dancing makes your movement ambiguous; you want to dash away because your opponent moving forwards is a threat, however, you don't know for sure whether they're actually going to commit to moving forwards, or whether they're going to retreat afterwards. By moving forwards, your opponent forces you to make a decision.

If your brother is throwing needles at you, then stay closer so you can punish the needle out of shield.


"Ledge options" refers to options when you're on the ledge trying to stall or get back onstage. You're talking about edgeguarding. When edgeguarding, your absolute priority is to stop your opponent from getting onto the stage (unless you have a guaranteed opportunity to put them back off immediately); it doesn't matter if you don't kill them straight away or if you don't build much damage. Basically, for spacies you should cover jump and side-B first (with something like run off->double jump->fair or down tilt), and then react to the startup of up-B and cover that if they do it. Watch Mew2King.


If he does anything laggy on your shield while in grab range, then grab him. This will be things like smash attacks, high aerials, and aerials with missed L-cancels. If his aerial is spaced properly or late/low enough then he'll be able to shine before you can grab (during your grab animation, causing you to get hit). If he doesn't do anything after the aerial->shine (such as a fadeaway nair, grab, or wavedash), then you can safely grab him anyway.

For out of shield options in general: roll from certain spacie pressure (including shine grabs and shine->aerial loops), wavedash out of shield if you don't need the intangibility (less committal, allows you to punish), instant forward aerial out of shield.


CPUs are punching bags for practicing combos and edgeguards on, with some exceptions (such as running away from them to practice movement). Level 9s are not better than level 1s in this respect (if anything they're worse because of their particular DI), but they are worse in other respects because they will constantly approach you, grab you with 1-frame reactions when you shield, powershield at least half of your attacks (also with 1-frame reactions), jab you constantly, and just generally be obnoxious. Despite this, they are extremely stupid and can literally be JV5ed by just standing in place and forward smashing repeatedly. Trying to "outplay" a level 9 CPU is pointless at best and will build lots of bad habits at worst. They provide no advantage over lower-level CPUs, unless you want to practice running away from them (and not trying to hit them).

Use level 1 20XX CPUs (all levels have the same DI/teching), or if you can't use the 20XX pack then use various low-level CPUs depending on what DI you want.

So many new players practice on level 9s exclusively, or worse, use their ability to beat level 9s as a measure of their skill (when it's meaningless). It comes up all the time in new player advice/critique threads.

Thanks for the tips regarding dash dancing, that makes a lot of sense.

Grabbing in general, both on CPUs and my bro are getting way more accurate

When I fight lvl9 CPUs, it's for nothing more than a punching bag and tech/combo practice.

Anyway, the videos will hopefully be up in not too long. They're filmed and awaiting a YouTube upload

 

[Stride]

http://old.clashtournaments.com/play-to-your-strengths/
http://old.clashtournaments.com/covering-options/
http://old.clashtournaments.com/covering-options/
Also, read these 2 articles by Mew2King (especially the 2nd one) if you haven't already. They're full of things to think about and apply (not just specifics, but information for your mindset/approach to decision-making and practicing which you can use universally), and they elaborate on some of the things I mentioned earlier.

 

[BTmoney]

The best advice I can give you is watch any PP set vs leffen or armada's fox and truly internalize what's going on. He spends 95% of neutral dash dancing and poking with d tilt, don't go around swinging.

Seriously really watch them and look at how PP stays on the ground.

Marth is bad when he commits and amazing when he doesn't. Always try to look for the grab unless they do something that's easily punishable. Then work on your grab punishes

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks to both of you, it's a lot of food for thought. I'll take to heart the lvl9 avoiding and practicing whatever combos I can imagine. Also, I've been doing my best to learn from PPMD from Apex 2015, and implementation of his techniques is also underway.

 

[FE_Hector]

(The double post is only because I'm pretty sure you don't get a notification for an edit)

Alright, so it took a little longer than expected, but I've got my second set against my bro up. We would have done 5 fights, but he got frustrated after the 4th fight. "No. If you didn't realize, I quit." Anyway, here they are. As with last time, tear me up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J_5Q6nlTAk&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK9J0RdMmUx0_srEVZIV-D9c
That should take you to the fights. Just a quick recap

Fight 1: I 3-stocked him
Fight 2: I lost to a fair at the last second
Fight 3: ...Where did that jump go?
Fight 4: Another 3-stock on my part

Here's some of what I have down in my own notes:

1.) How should I handle his needle camping in Battlefield (see fight 3). The one time in Fight 4 that I ran at him and grabbed him out of it worked, but I don't like that option too much. Seems a bit too risky.
2.) How should I handle his aerials better? Especially when he fair/uairs me at the last second, I can sometimes beat him to it, but it's difficult.
3.) Tips for L-canceling? I figure it'll help a lot once I get it done.
4.) What ideas do you have for better recoveries from the edge?

This was posted in the "Aack! Help with Fox?" thread for a reason. Please take into account what you see I'm doing and give me some tips for how I could fight Fox knowing roughly what I'm capable of.

 

[Stride]

Read this. I won't mention some of the habits you have since this covers them; you should watch your videos and find/deal with them yourself: http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2rnvkv/list_of_common_noob_habits_you_should_all_try_to/

Next time you're going to post a video here, analyse it yourself first and post the results. This is both so that you think about what you're doing and learn (thinking for yourself is really important, obviously), and so that no-one ends up pointing out things that you're already fully aware of. Also, people can go through your analysis with you which is good.

You really need to learn techskill; it's holding you back a ridiculous amount. Go into the lab and practice. In the long term, there's no point learning how to win with your current/limited tools when you can have better tools available to you with practice (and when winning with your current tools is practically impossible anyway). I can't give you too much Fox-specific advice without seeing you play a Fox, but you'll find that once you get comfortable with your fundamental tech you'll be able to come up with solutions yourself much more readily.

Jump cancel grab is easy to learn and really important, so learn that soon; you literally just input jump and then grab.

There aren't really any tips to learning L-cancelling, other than to remember to change your timing based on whether you hit your opponent or not, and to use the "flash red on missed L-cancel" code.

You absolutely need to dash-dance. That's how you beat aerial approaches (dash forwards, they do a short hop aerial at you, you dash away then back in and grab their landing, you kill them off the grab). Not dash-dancing is also forcing you to rely on counter to deal with a lot of approaches (it's either that or shield).

Wavedash out of shied to punish needles, or aerial out of shield if you're close enough (your opponent shouldn't be throwing needles at that spacing though).

When you're on the ledge, make sure to consciously mix up your options (stand, ledgeroll, waveland, stand to buffer roll, etc.). Don't always get off the ledge immediately. Refresh your intangibility by dropping from the ledge (usually as soon as possible), fastfalling down, and then jumping back up (all while staying below the ledge so you can't be hit very easily). Sometimes drop->jump->fair if the opponent gets too close (at low percents the opponent can easily punish this from crouch-cancel). Watch Mew2King.

You can't edgeguard Sheik like you're doing; you're giving up the ledge for free every time, it's just that your brother isn't going to it for some reason (tell him to do so). Basically, what you're supposed to do is grab the ledge so they can't go there (do it late so you're intangible), then react to where they teleport and waveland->forward smash them back offstage or up air them or whatever.

Sheik's up-B has more lading lag than you think. In the first game you countered immediately after he landed rather than taking your free punish.

Try to extend your combos more. Going for extensions when you're not quite sure whether they'll work makes you learn faster compared to always making suboptimal choices that you know will work. It's friendlies; that's your best opportunity to try this kind of thing. This is a good example of what I'm talking about; I feel like you got overexcited with your 2 hit combo and did the forward smash because you were scared of dropping it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GIz6XK0bk8&index=2&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK9J0RdMmUx0_srEVZIV-D9c&t=56s

You should be aware of stage positioning and change your decisions accordingly. Generally, if you have an opportunity to get your opponent offstage and into an edgeguard scenario, then that's more valuable than dealing damage and resetting the situation (since the edgeguard can potentially result in a kill). Going for damage is more reliable, but edgeguards have a higher reward and in a lot of cases your chance of success can be very high for that kind of reward; see Sheik vs spacies after a back throw.

I didn't see you down tilt in those videos.

Dash attack at low percents is punishable on hit (from ASDI down on reaction), but your brother isn't doing it.

 

[FE_Hector]

Read this. I won't mention some of the habits you have since they're in here; you should watch your videos and find/deal with them yourself: http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2rnvkv/list_of_common_noob_habits_you_should_all_try_to/

Next time you're going to post a video here, analyse it yourself first and post the results. This is both so that you think about what you're doing and learn (thinking for yourself is really important, obviously), and so that no-one ends up pointing out things that you're already fully aware of. Also, people can go through your analysis with you which is good.

You really need to learn techskill; it's holding you back a ridiculous amount. Go into the lab and practice. In the long term, there's no point learning how to win with your current/limited tools when you can have better tools available to you with practice (and when winning with your current tools is practically impossible anyway). I can't give you too much Fox-specific advice without seeing you play a Fox, but you'll find that once you get comfortable with your fundamental tech you'll be able to come up with solutions yourself much more readily.

Jump cancel grab is easy to learn and really important, so learn that soon; you literally just press jump and grab at the same time. Basically do it all the time, except with Sheik (because she has a useful boost grab), and sometimes against Kirby and Jigglypuff (since dash grab can grab them when they're crouching more often). You don't have to worry about that though; just jump cancel grab every time.

There aren't really any tips to learning L-cancelling, other than to remember to change your timing based on whether you hit your opponent or not, and to use the "flash red on missed L-cancel" code.

You absolutely need to dash-dance. That's how you beat aerial approaches (dash forwards, they do a short hop aerial at you, you dash away then back in and grab their landing, you kill them off the grab). Not dash-dancing is also forcing you to rely on counter to deal with a lot of approaches (it's either that or shield).

Wavedash out of shied to punish needles.

When you're on the ledge, make sure to consciously mix up your options (stand, ledgeroll, waveland, stand to buffer roll, etc.). Don't always get off the ledge immediately. Refresh your intangibility by dropping from the ledge (usually as soon as possible), fastfalling down, and then jumping back up (all while staying below the ledge so you can't be hit very easily). Sometimes drop->jump->fair if the opponent gets too close (at low percents the opponent can easily punish this from crouch cancel). Watch Mew2King.

You can't edgeguard Sheik like you're doing; you're giving up the ledge for free every time, it's just that your brother isn't going to it for some reason (tell him to do so). Basically. what you're supposed to do is grab the ledge so they can't go there (do it late so you're intangible), then react to where they teleport and waveland forward smash or whatever.

Sheik's up-B has more lading lag than you think. In the first game you countered immediately after he landed rather than taking your free punish.

Try to extend your combos more. Going for extensions when you're not quite sure whether they'll work makes you learn faster compared to always making suboptimal choices that you know will work. It's friendlies; that's your best opportunity to try this kind of thing. This is a good example of what I'm talking about; I feel like you got overexcited with your 2 hit combo and did the forward smash because you were scared of dropping it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GIz6XK0bk8&index=2&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK9J0RdMmUx0_srEVZIV-D9c&t=56s

You should be aware of stage positioning and change your decisions accordingly. Generally, if you have an opportunity to get your opponent offstage and into an edgeguard scenario, then that's more valuable than dealing damage and resetting the situation (since the edgeguard can potentially result in a kill). Going for damage is more reliable, but edgeguards have a higher reward and in a lot of cases your chance of success can be very high for that kind of reward; see Sheik vs spacies after a back throw.

I didn't see you down tilt in those videos.

As far as teching the ground goes, I'm working on it.
Wavedashing wasn't used because I wasn't consistent with it. I am much more now.
As far as the crap combos go, a lot of them ended prematurely due to an input flub or because my fsmash could force him off the edge.
I'll remember the Sheik Vanish lag and explosion. That's better than I had been doing, in all honesty.
Thanks for the idea on needle camping.
I learned JC grabs earlier and I'm gonna implement that to my technique immediately.
I can wavedash off the edge to grab it. I just don't cuz he never takes it and I know that.
I think I get dash dance application now, so he'll be my guinea pig on that front.
Dtilting has been seeing slow implementation, and is getting there.

And I actually did analyze the fight. Here's what I noted:

Standing grab > running grab
Needle camping tips? SH fair/dair missed... The shield -> dashing grab seemed to work
WATCH OUT FOR THE EXPLOSION Either stay out of its range altogether (preferred) or light shield it
Stop rolling and actually attack him when close quarters Grabs count
Handling aerials better?
Lots of messed up short hops
Stop smashing, aim for way more tilts
Move away from counters
L-canceling?
D-tilt when he’s running at me... And in general
Better recovery from edge ideas?
Better timing on tilts
Light shield dash attack -> SH fair/dair Alt: Light shield his dash attack -> grab


I went through Kadano's Perfect Marth class earlier today, and hopefully my bro will be up for helping me practice teching and SHFFLing in an infinite time match tomorrow or the day after. I'll probably send another vid with a 2/3 or 3/5 set after we both feel ready in the matchup. Hopefully this Saturday I'll be able to fight the Fox, just with a bit of input lag due to a lack of CRT... whatever, better than nothing.

 

[blargh257]

Why do you need your brother to practice SHFFL?
Anyway, woooow you're rolling a lot. Rolling isn't very good, as far as I know you should only do it to get out of shield pressure. If you're in shield, wavedash out of shield serves the purposes rolling does much better, and if you're not, basically any other movement option does.
I also notice that you dash attack a good bit. Again, that's largely a situational option. Up tilt and short hop fair are better if you want a combo, and even then up tilt in neutral can be punished very hard.
Oh, right, Fox.
This advice translates well to Fox. If you make a bad commitment Fox has the movement options to get in on you pretty much no matter the situation.
Also, practice combos and SHFFL, if not Fox will take control of the punish game, which is usually Marth's territory.

 

[AudioSilver]

My advice for shutting down a Fox main is to focus on Chaingrabbing.

Last time I played against a Fox, I used Up Throw Chaingrabbing combined with Up Tilts and Up-Airs until I got into the position where I could Ken Combo him.

(Maybe it's just me...)

 

[FE_Hector]

Why do you need your brother to practice SHFFL?
Anyway, woooow you're rolling a lot. Rolling isn't very good, as far as I know you should only do it to get out of shield pressure. If you're in shield, wavedash out of shield serves the purposes rolling does much better, and if you're not, basically any other movement option does.
I also notice that you dash attack a good bit. Again, that's largely a situational option. Up tilt and short hop fair are better if you want a combo, and even then up tilt in neutral can be punished very hard.
Oh, right, Fox.
This advice translates well to Fox. If you make a bad commitment Fox has the movement options to get in on you pretty much no matter the situation.
Also, practice combos and SHFFL, if not Fox will take control of the punish game, which is usually Marth's territory.

Lol, I don't NEED my bro to practice, but it's also an application thing in the fast-paced battles. I'm moving away from rolls in favor of dashes (pivots in the works) and SHFFLs. I'm working on a lot more tilts instead of... Cruddy everything else. Anyway, it's going. Hopefully I'll have me vs fox footage in the next week.

...Chain grabs... Also in the works

 

[AudioSilver]

Lol, I don't NEED my bro to practice, but it's also an application thing in the fast-paced battles. I'm moving away from rolls in favor of dashes (pivots in the works) and SHFFLs. I'm working on a lot more tilts instead of... Cruddy everything else. Anyway, it's going. Hopefully I'll have me vs fox footage in the next week.

...Chain grabs... Also in the works

Good luck, either way.

 

[FE_Hector]

Good luck, either way.

Thx. My bro and I are probably gonna go for A WHILE in a day or two in the infinite mode, so hopefully there's a lot of growth.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Use superior spacing to force a situation where you can get a grab. Then absolutely dominate him with extended combo strings. When fox is above Marth in the air there's really only so many options available to him and most of them are outspaced by Marth's ridiculous sword. Up-throw to Uair string. Up-throw to F-Smash if they don't DI. Chain grab stupidity into multiple turn around u-tilts into up-air string/forward smash. The list is basically endless but it all starts with a successful grab and that grab starts with spacing.

 

[FE_Hector]

Use superior spacing to force a situation where you can get a grab. Then absolutely dominate him with extended combo strings. When fox is above Marth in the air there's really only so many options available to him and most of them are outspaced by Marth's ridiculous sword. Up-throw to Uair string. Up-throw to F-Smash if they don't DI. Chain grab stupidity into multiple turn around u-tilts into up-air string/forward smash. The list is basically endless but it all starts with a successful grab and that grab starts with spacing.

And JC grabs help that out a lot, along with wavedashing to force him into a bad move. I get it now. Thanks!