A WACKY idea

[Morin0]

Would people be opposed to making emulators the standard for offline tournaments? I see a lot of benefits.

• No more lugging around CRTs/setups are more portable
• Lagless teams without the need for an OC console
• clearer PICTURE
• no adapter needed for those that don't use N64 controllers
• Streaming will be of higher quality and more easy to set up

The biggest benefit of this is the ease of running modded ROMs such as Madao's Quickmatch ROM with the timer. If there is enough dedication, people can make more stages, and we can have these run on a superior emulator like Mupen without a hitch.

The drawbacks are that the majority of players would need to buy an adapter in order to play and console purists would not be too happy thatt it's on emulator. Also, probably that most adapters introduce delay.

Thoughts?

 

[Cobrevolution]

where's the "**** no" option

 

[Combo Blaze]

Thought this was brought up as an alternative/fix(cant think of word atm, im dum) to the adapter issue? But yeah setting up the controller to be as close to n64 would be annoying, swapping controller, etc.

 

[Morin0]

Do people have different settings depending on the quality of their stick? Everyone seems to have different dead zone/range settings.

In my case, I keep the same settings regardless of the quality of my stick. I thought it was weird when I would ask the online Melee players if they have come to a consensus on what are the settings closest to console (similar to 64), and they say that it depends on your controller.

 

[Villainy]

Yes 100% in favor. But sadly there's no tournaments around me.
Idk if I just have a bad n64 but the gameplay feels much slower on console.

 

[Shears]

I like the thought but in practice I don't see it working as well. Couple reasons:

Deadzone/range. Newcomers aren't going to know what these are or how to set them up and are going to be turned off from playing in tournaments when the gameplay isn't what they were familiar with. In addition, I have tried countless combinations and have never been able to get the deadzone/range to feel like console, and when its something you're used to it makes a huge difference when its changed. I've also asked what the configuration that mirrors console is, and no one has given a real answer.

Controllers. Each player will have to reconfigure a different controller setting every time they connect to a computer. You play on the computer with an xbox controller. I'm up next for a match, now I have to play on the computer. I don't just have to plug in, I have to configure controller settings too. Everyone has their own computer with settings preconfigured...

Computers. Good computers, and I'm assuming we want to use laptops for mobility purposes, are expensive. Some people either won't have one or aren't willing to bring one. I could book it out of the venue with a few $1000 laptops much easier than a few bulky, heavy, $5 crts. No one is really swiping crts or $30 consoles. A smorgasbord of expensive computers though might grow the scene by introducing larceny felons to the community.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

The only hori adapter that exists has delay

The only decent 0-delay n64 controller adapter is long out of production

 

[Shears]

Yeah I think this idea is just too wacky.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

new version of the adapter is like 3-4 weeks away from being finished:

direct booting into the application and it remembers the last configuration, so all you have to do is turn it on then plug it into the n64 and you are good to go

touchscreen interface so all you need is whatever you use for input (no lugging a keyboard around)

Lagless teams without the need for an OC console

Playing on stages with few to no sprites and playing with team attack off makes teams WAY less laggy

no adapter needed for those that don't use N64 controllers

there are maybe 10 people in the whole world who need USB adapters. So lets make the 500 people with controllers use adapters instead?

Streaming will be of higher quality and more easy to set up

my stream setup is super easy.



oh and most importantly: N64 emulators suck. The n64 is probably the most difficult console to emulate

Here is a wacky idea:

Spoiler: SUPER WACKY

learn to play on Hori, its better than Xbox/GC/PS2 anyways

 

[Morin0]

Lol. I didn't make this thread with myself in mind. I mean, because emulator would be better for me because I use Xbox. That's not the case. I was thinking of simply extending the longetivity of smash 64 and making it more accessible to people. There's a lot of people who don't like the n64 controller's analog stick. Good n64 controllers are hard to find too. I also really want to bring new stages and new things that GS codes can offer. I can't think of a way to get that in a console tournament without running into limitations on the n64 hardware or unstable Gameshark carts.

Also, Xbox 4 life. I think it's the best controller for smash 64.

 

[Cobrevolution]

but the gameplay feels much slower on console.

result of playing online forever. fluctuating FPS has warped your perception.

i was playing someone the other day and it would periodically jump to 68. that's unplayable.

I also really want to bring new stages and new things that GS codes can offer.

how would these things improve the tournament scene? quickmatch would be fine, but really, that's all i can think of. the other stages are laughable for tourney.

making it more accessible to people.

requiring the majority of players to purchase or use adapters is not making it more accessible. it is the opposite.

 

[mixa]

the other stages are laughable for tourney.

rofl yes

 

[Shears]

how would these things improve the tournament scene? quickmatch would be fine, but really, that's all i can think of. the other stages are laughable for tourney.

Timers.

I agree that fluctuating FPS is very bad.

 

[Morin0]

Rob, I think that's because they are using a controller with different settings. At least for me, when I went from Xbox to OG n64, it felt very clunky. Though it might have to do with fps too.

I'm not sure what stages you're referring to. I said that if there was enough dedication, we can create new stages, and we can have them easily implemented in offline tournaments if it's on emulator.


A melee player said that 64 was unplayable due to the controller. This is what I mean bg accessibility. Not accessibility for ourselves, but for new players.

 

[kys]

Only NOOBS play teams with Team Attack off.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Japan and Peru play team attack off

 

[Shears]

Japan and Peru confirmed noobs

 

[Cobrevolution]

A melee player said that 64 was unplayable due to the controller.

that's funny, i think the same thing about melee

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

that's funny, i think the same thing about melee

they just upset they dont get c-stick macros

 

[Madao]

I honestly think it's a good idea. However I believe it won't happen due to the amount of console purists.

I knew I'd see at least 1 person bashing emulators. Clearly they are doing it wrong, if they have problems other than controller issues. N64 emulation does not suck, nor is it super difficult to emulate.. Sheers brought up a good point about controller configuration though. I didn't even think of that lol.

Extra stages would be nice.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

N64 emulation does not suck, nor is it super difficult to emulate..

jajajajajaja

wwwwww

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Nintendo_64_emulators#Emulation_issues

 

[Madao]

That site's dumb and outdated.

"1964, along with its various versions and forks, was once a decent, speedy alternative to Project64 and Mupen64, though it usually lagged behind the two in compatibility. Nowadays, it has completely fallen off the radar, and there is little reason to use it outside of some of its forks' overclocking function, which allows for smoother framerates. Even this feature, however, has been supplanted by both Project64 2.1 and RetroArch's VI Refresh Rate setting, which effectively does the same thing."
This is ridiculous ^ . Clearly they don't know wth they are talking about.

"The system is very complex and confounded with almost no documentation available to emulator developers, leading to it being difficult to create an emulator with a high degree of compatibility with games."
This is outdated and irrelevant today as there is enough documentation for graphics.

"Many games require specific plugin set ups with specific emulators. It's a mess."
Lol at anybody who whines about plugins.

"Some N64 games are emulated better as a Virtual Console game through Dolphin than on an actual N64 emulator."
These dolphin bandwagon hoppers are ridiculous ;/ .

Anyway, sure emulation isn't perfect, but that's not a problem for non console purists. I'll take high-res gfx of n64's original graphics any day. Imo the pro's outweigh the cons, with the exception of possible controller issues. That's the main reason why I don't think this will happen.

 

[Morin0]

that's funny, i think the same thing about melee

What? You can't use the GameCube controller? I was referring to the analog stick. You are delusional if you say the n64's analog stick is better than the GC's in terms of quality. A bad stick can make the game completely unenjoyable. These are common complaints from players who go from a GameCube stick to an n64 controller they've had laying around the house since childhood. Aka Mario party quality sticks.

Some guy brought a 64 setup to a PM tournament I went to and the controllers he brought were complete ****. I literally could not walk or dash without excerting an unneeded amount of force.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i think the gc controller design is silly.

X->B is unnecessarily far, and B is way too small. x and y are also amusing shapes. i honestly do not believe nintendo created the gc controller with accessibility/comfort/ergonomic ideas in mind. you have such a high chance to hit other buttons mistakenly.

the triggers feel like something made by fisher price and the z button placement ****s up the natural symmetry with your fingers. and the c stick is also pretty far from the rest of the action.

so no, i can't use the gamecube controller cuz it feels like a science experiment in my hand. i personally believe the ps2 controller is the most comfortable thing i've ever used.


regardless, i think it's foolish to sacrifice the comfort and loyalty of old players for the sake of new or different (people who would rather play on laptop or with xbox or gc or not bring a crt, etc) players' accessibility options. the minority shouldn't be given preference over the majority in this case. makes no sense.

 

[Madao]

A bad stick can make the game completely unenjoyable. These are common complaints from players who go from a GameCube stick to an n64 controller they've had laying around the house since childhood. Aka Mario party quality sticks.

This is an accurate description of my experience lol. The Mario Party part was spot on.

 

[T Brett]

If someone wants to organize a basement tournament on their laptops and use usb controllers then who cares?
If someone wants to collect old tv's and cartridges and systems and host tournaments that way then who cares?
Why does there have to be a single standard?

Whatever people have access to will be what they use to enjoy this game, and you guys should be promoting that the most if you want a growing competitive scene

 

[Morin0]

Yeah, I'm not talking about the button layout or the shoulder buttons. I am talking about the analog stick. That is the source of the complaints from people trying to play 64 with a regular controller. Couple that with the task of even finding a controller with a good stick along with the additional task of maintaining the stick. It's not that inviting for players who are trying to get into the game.

I'm just thinking of ways to get this community thriving even more. But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that this game has its days numbered.

If someone wants to organize a basement tournament on their laptops and use usb controllers then who cares?
If someone wants to collect old tv's and cartridges and systems and host tournaments that way then who cares?
Why does there have to be a single standard?

Whatever people have access to will be what they use to enjoy this game, and you guys should be promoting that the most if you want a growing competitive scene

There needs to be a single standard because while it's cool to have people use what they are most comfortable with, it also divides this community in offline tournaments. Are emulator guys only supposed to play with each other in tournaments? What if they need to play someone on console? It is akin to online warriors vs console purists. One can't play with the other without someone being unhappy. (e.g. if someone wanted to play BANE, it would be through emulator.)


EDIT: and before someone mentions karajan's adapters, they are not exactly cheap to build. But yeah, as it is now, we are fine. With the majority of the players having no need for adapters and the sole major 64 tournament having adapters available thanks to Karajan and Pidge, players who need one can be accommodated. Though I think Karajan has given away (or plans to) all his adapters to Peru/Japan. So I guess it's all on pidge to accommodate these players.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

its less than $200 to put one together
how much does it cost for a laptop + controller adapter?

 

[Morin0]

Most people already own a laptop, dude. In an alternate universe where emulators on smart phones are the alternative to console, it'd be like if I said, "well, how much does it cost to buy a smart phone + an adapter?" Almost every single person owns a smart phone already.

I'm probably the only sucker that went ahead and built one despite there being almost no console tournaments. It's just sitting in my closet. lol. Dropping that kind of money for an adapter when you get to hardly use it at all on console is kind of hard to do. Kabal said that it's too expensive for him. Having said that though, this adapter is a godsend.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Almost every single player here owns a controller and a console

 

[Morin0]

I've already conceded on that point. People who need adapters are in the minority. It's just a fact that it's not exactly cheap to build. People like you who provided these this year will not be able to provide them again next year, so now it's up to Pidge to help out the keyboard kingz and stuff.

 

[Shears]

Please stop throwing around the term “console purists” like you know all of our opinions on this topic. I am literally the only console purist who *posted* on this thread and I think this is a great idea. ****ing n00bs.

Comp smash with FD and Battlefield would be the most beautiful thing since Scarlett Johansson.

If some of these small issues could be worked out I would support this idea 100%.

-Shears the Great

 

[Morin0]

Heh. I think of "console purists" as people who are unwilling to change; people who see console as the holy grail for smash, and are incredibly biased against emulator for simply being emulator. Maybe rightly so, but they're essentially people like Rob.

 

[Fireblaster]

Rob doesn't even have a console

 

[Cobrevolution]

yeah and I definitely consider myself a console purist regardless

 

[pidgezero_one]

in my region we only have to bring cartridges

 

[clubbadubba]

adapter delay + frame rate fluctuation == bad idea

If it ever comes to this because crt's and/or n64's no longer work, that would be the day call it quits. Emulator performance is unfortunately sub-par when compared to console.

It would be hilarious to have a McAfee alert popup in the middle of Apex GF though lol.

 

[VVilde]

Console ****ing blows

 

[Fireblaster]

In my opinion, no this should not happen for two reasons. None of these have to do with my personal preference, nor does it have to do with me believing in "console purity" or anything illogical.

1) People will be forced to play on new controls. Yes it's the same controller but it's never going to be exactly setup to how it feels on console. For some players a few degrees of difference in joystick movement can make the difference between a dash pivot ledge cancel bair and a turn around fsmash. Do you have a method of replicating 100% the controls from console?

2) Not viable for massive tournaments. It's one thing for other more modern fighting games to take place on PC's (which only started recently) because almost every arcade stick is plug and play and can be used almost instantaneously. Having to plug in every single controller (and none of the joysticks are going to be the same) means you have to constantly recalibrate every single one. Tournaments already take a long time because of other things outside the game; more things do not need to be added to make tournaments take longer. Apex 2014 with 156 entrants? Yeah, we MIGHT have made it to top 32 by the end of the first day if it was like this.

These are factual reasons and not opinions. It is because of these reasons that I don't think emulators can be a standard yet until these things are solved.

 

[Sangoku]

You could still gain some time with fast setup ROM plus remove frame limit.

Not taking sides, I'm not saying this compensates the wasted time.