A Suggestion to make SSB4 more competitive?

[MagnesD3]

I know sakurai doesnt want ssb to be a competitive game but Its still fun to play around with the idea maybe one day they will care. There are a few ideas I think would be interesting to see.

1. Id like there to be mid, low and high moves that will hit you depending on how you are blocking (these different types of moves could also help differentiate characters moves) so while holding the shield button to block high you have to hold up and to block low you have to hold the joystick down, any position while blocking will block mids. (Inputs to dodge will be altered.)

2. Id like to make shield breaking easier and shield reduction last longer that way a viable strategy would be to get guess a couple strings of making your opponent block would result in a shield break giving you a free smash of course.

3. Id like dodging to have a slight bit more recovery on ground and in air to make it easier to punish.

4. Id like sakurai to make certain moves be comboable on purpose, (I do not want a combo counter to indicate number of hits since the max combos may be like 5 hits, instead if something is a combo you should be able to tell by the color of the hit, say if on normal hit non comboed it would be red but if it was a comboed hit it would be blue, something like that.)

Make it so these game changes are optional that way no ones normal party gaming experience is affected by it but If you turn on competitive mode these changes go into affect including all of the characters move properties.

If you guys have any more suggestions or thoughts on the matter plz do tell.

 

[J1NG]

When I saw your first suggestion, I frowned. Guarding low, aka shield + down already makes the player sidestep. I'm not sure about 2 and 3, but I agree with having certain moves combo into other moves. For example, in Melee, I thought it would be awesome if Roy could cancel his jab with one of his tilts.

I do indeed have ideas to make Smash more competitive, but not necessarily to the detriment of casual play:
1 Grab techs. Example: Player 1 attempts to grab Player 2. In the same frame that Player 2 would be grabbed, Player 2 presses the grab button and instantly breaks free of Player 1's grab.
2 Tag-Teams. I saw my own post where I suggested this idea, but I left something out anyway, so here goes. I thought it would be cool if there was a mode where you could select multiple characters under one Player slot, like in Subspace Emissary. You can choose multiple characters, and when one get's KO'd, the next character swaps in. The thing I left out is the ability to call in the other character(s) for an assist. Also, it would be cool if you could swap characters instantly for some tag team combo's.
3 Undodgeable Attacks": This might not sound like such a great idea, but I've noticed that in Smash, there are certain moves that I don't use frequently or at all. For example, the only time I ever use Captain Falcon's Up-B is when I am recovering. In Smash 64, players used it at the end of some of their air combo's. What I'm suggesting is making moves like Mario's Up-B or Ganondorf's B undodgeable from the air and ground respectively. Certain characters already have moves that are unguardable.

I'll post some more later.

 

[MagnesD3]

Certain unguardable attacks would be something to maybe play around with, I definitely think there should be grab breaking.

 

[J1NG]

I had a great idea today. What if the next Smash had additional Ukemi options? Here's an example:
Mario knocks Luigi away. Luigi flies across the stage and touches the ground. Currently, his options are to not Ukemi, to roll left, roll right, or to tech in place. I was thinking that it would be cool if, in this example, Luigi could jump out of his Ukemi or use his get-up attack on tech. With the jump Ukemi, you have lots of options. You can jump straight up, left, or right, and maybe you're not able to attack or dodge until a certain amount of frames have passed. With the attack Ukemi, it can be used to predict a follow-up and protect your recovery. But if your opponent reads it, you'll get punished again. I suppose it would also be interesting to have an A and B attack Ukemi.

 

[MagnesD3]

I had a great idea today. What if the next Smash had additional Ukemi options? Here's an example:
Mario knocks Luigi away. Luigi flies across the stage and touches the ground. Currently, his options are to not Ukemi, to roll left, roll right, or to tech in place. I was thinking that it would be cool if, in this example, Luigi could jump out of his Ukemi or use his get-up attack on tech. With the jump Ukemi, you have lots of options. You can jump straight up, left, or right, and maybe you're not able to attack or dodge until a certain amount of frames have passed. With the attack Ukemi, it can be used to predict a follow-up and protect your recovery. But if your opponent reads it, you'll get punished again. I suppose it would also be interesting to have an A and B attack Ukemi.

It would be interesting to try these certain mechanics as long as they are baitable/punishable.

 

[Big-Cat]

High, mid, and low moves in Smash would be rather difficult to really tell due to the much greater variety in size and shape of the characters in comparison to most fighting games. What I've suggested in the past is to reduce the size of shield in half with a static size (like Yoshi) and that you move the shield in accordance to where the attack will strike. This way, defending is more hitbox based and may actually be more intuitive to beginner players instead of knowing which of the three levels the move is.

Number 4 is more or less what BlazBlue has. A combo counter wouldn't be a bad idea, especially where the character's profile is at.

Finally, making all this optional is actually a very bad idea. Just make people adjust to the changes and tell them to move on. I can't think of any other game that has done this in recent times.

 

[MagnesD3]

High, mid, and low moves in Smash would be rather difficult to really tell due to the much greater variety in size and shape of the characters in comparison to most fighting games. What I've suggested in the past is to reduce the size of shield in half with a static size (like Yoshi) and that you move the shield in accordance to where the attack will strike. This way, defending is more hitbox based and may actually be more intuitive to beginner players instead of knowing which of the three levels the move is.

Number 4 is more or less what BlazBlue has. A combo counter wouldn't be a bad idea, especially where the character's profile is at.

Finally, making all this optional is actually a very bad idea. Just make people adjust to the changes and tell them to move on. I can't think of any other game that has done this in recent times.

Actually your shield lowering and adjustment to hitbox idea sounds really cool actually, that way people would have to know how to block on a character to character bases. Also I guess I see your point on the optional idea, I could go either way for it honestly, I am just afraid of alienating casuals.

 

[Big-Cat]

I mean, it's a new game. Any changes are fair game.

 

[Tesh]

Smash already has a far superior blocking mechanic with angling shields. We already have 360 degrees of blocking and with shield poking as punishment. Why would you want it downgraded to highs and lows and wind up with only 3 angles instead of 360?

Moves just need to be more diverse so angling shields actually matter more. At the moment, only a couple of moves force competitive players to think about angling a shield.

 

[J1NG]

Smash already has a far superior blocking mechanic with angling shields. We already have 360 degrees of blocking and with shield poking as punishment. Why would you want it downgraded to highs and lows and wind up with only 3 angles instead of 360?

Moves just need to be more diverse so angling shields actually matter more. At the moment, only a couple of moves force competitive players to think about angling a shield.

I agree that shield angling needs to matter more. My only problem is that it would interfere with the input for dodging. I think an interesting solution would have one button be used for dodging while the other is used for blocking.

 

[Big-Cat]

That just seems wasteful. A down, down input would suffice.

 

[J1NG]

That just seems wasteful. A down, down input would suffice.

Oh, do you mean hold shield>press direction to move the shield in that direction, AND hold shield>press same direction twice in rapid succession to dodge? If not, then I'm a bit confused.

 

[Big-Cat]

When in shield, you move the shield with control stick to defend. When holding the shield, you double tap down to sidestep. This is to prevent accidental inputs and not waste a button just for dodging that could go to something bigger like an attack button.

Likewise, you double tap forward or back to do dodge rolls. Though I'm wondering if doing double down without the shield for sidestepping might be better.

 

[MagnesD3]

When in shield, you move the shield with control stick to defend. When holding the shield, you double tap down to sidestep. This is to prevent accidental inputs and not waste a button just for dodging that could go to something bigger like an attack button.

Likewise, you double tap forward or back to do dodge rolls. Though I'm wondering if doing double down without the shield for sidestepping might be better.

That would work.

 

[J1NG]

When in shield, you move the shield with control stick to defend. When holding the shield, you double tap down to sidestep. This is to prevent accidental inputs and not waste a button just for dodging that could go to something bigger like an attack button.

Likewise, you double tap forward or back to do dodge rolls. Though I'm wondering if doing double down without the shield for sidestepping might be better.

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant. That sounds like a better idea. Or maybe it could be similar to how the A attacks work. Like, you could tilt the stick with the shield in order to move it, and "smash" the stick to dodge.
I do wonder, am I the only one that thinks it would be interesting for the next Smash to have both Melee's and Brawl's air dodges?
As for having an extra attack button, well, I thought Smash had it good already with its attack system. But I'll hear any reasons why an extra button would be a good idea.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, I've been wondering if having analog inputs for attacks is actually a bad idea or not.

On an additional attack button, this can allow move sets to more diverse and balanced with a mix of weak, heavy, and medium attacks. And if Virtua Fighter can work off of three (technically six) buttons, so can Smash, especially if diagonal attack inputs are given greater significance.

 

[J1NG]

Well, I've been wondering if having analog inputs for attacks is actually a bad idea or not.

On an additional attack button, this can allow move sets to more diverse and balanced with a mix of weak, heavy, and medium attacks. And if Virtua Fighter can work off of three (technically six) buttons, so can Smash, especially if diagonal attack inputs are given greater significance.

Well Smash does have weak, medium, and strong attacks. But if the idea here is to expand the number of those attacks, I'm sure someone has already mentioned the idea of having the strength of B attacks vary according to how hard you press on the stick, like with A attacks.
Also, to elaborate more on the idea of having Melee and Brawl air dodges, I think that characters should posses one or the other. Characters who are already very mobile or who have good recovery options wouldn't need Melee's air dodge. I think it would be cool if, say, Zelda had Melee's air dodge and Sheik had Brawl's air dodge.

 

[MagnesD3]

Well, I've been wondering if having analog inputs for attacks is actually a bad idea or not.

On an additional attack button, this can allow move sets to more diverse and balanced with a mix of weak, heavy, and medium attacks. And if Virtua Fighter can work off of three (technically six) buttons, so can Smash, especially if diagonal attack inputs are given greater significance.

I could see another button (maybe a special function for each character?) but I dont deem it necessary.

 

[FalKoopa]

I would like the dash to be cancellable into any smash attack. That would be useful.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well Smash does have weak, medium, and strong attacks. But if the idea here is to expand the number of those attacks, I'm sure someone has already mentioned the idea of having the strength of B attacks vary according to how hard you press on the stick, like with A attacks.

And I still don't like this whole analog input thing. After putting time into other fighting games, you start to see that the Smash inputs are actually very unintuitive and are easy to pull out instead of tilts in stressful situations. I'd rather that go away with. It's not like the analog sticks aren't lacking in sensitivity like the N64 controllers. There's also the concern of whether or not you'd accidentally wear down the 3DS circle pad as well (and you can't replace those). You can easily make these inputs for attacks:

Using this number pad for reference:

789
456
123

You can easily have moves assigned to all but the 1,7, and 4 inputs in a Smash Bros. game, making it where you have six ground attacks per button, doubling what you have already. Not sure about aerials as I wonder if the five we have to begin with are sufficient.

But the balance had to do more with moves in general. Things like universal jabs with the same startup are an absolute must.

I could see another button (maybe a special function for each character?) but I dont deem it necessary.

Going for a special function button would be far too difficult for a roster this big. Again, I think the best option is just to make it a new attack buttons.

I would like the dash to be cancellable into any smash attack. That would be useful.

Then that makes running too dominating of a movement option.