A serious look for items?

[Twin Dreams]

In Brawl, the item selection allows you to turn off containers. This now nullifies Con-Items side of the argument that "something can fall on you as you attack and kill you, and there's nothing you could so about it." That was pretty much the reason I never considered tournaments with items. However, now that all containers, bombs, healing, invincibility, and random items can be turned off, should they be allowed in tournaments? Heck, I'll even go to say that any item that affects your ability to control yourself on spawn are banned. (Mushrooms)


Is a mine or a smoke bomb going to take the skill out of the game?



Anyone have constructive arguments as to not having items? Even when removing any item that can affect technical skill of the player?



BTW, I'm against item tournaments. (A bias I carry over from Melee. I'm only talking about the possibility of implementing them.)

Here is my prediction of an Item legal tournament.

Spawn: Medium or lower

Smash Ball (??)
Beam Sword
Bunny Hood
Fire Flower
Hammer
Lip's Stick
Metal Box
Motion-Sensor Bomb
Mr. Saturn
Star Rod
Super Scope
Banana Peel
Hot Head
Pitfalll
Smoke Ball

These are the only really reasonable items I can see being in tournaments. Never anything higher than a medium on spawns and Smash Ball is up to the community. I, for one, see no problem with it. Since anything that instantly kills only really gets one chance and anything else doesn't instantly kill you.


Intelligent debate appreciated.

 

[eodeth]

seems like a nice list to me, but no dragoon, or warpstar

Dragoon: as said before,if you manage to get all 3 parts you deserve it

Warpstar: easily dodged and if ur not good enough to dodge it then you deserve it

other than that its great but if competition matches somehow become the list you made i wont care if thses 2 are out

 

[TechnoMonster]

There is a good thread on item legal tournaments lurking somewhere. It's worth looking into.

 

[theONEjanitor]

smashballs are broken...many can be comboed, mindgamed into for an insta-kill at 0 percent.
beam sword is broken, it reaches across the freaking sttage for cristsakes
bunny hood encourages camping
hammer is broken
metal box makes you die easier, and you often get it when you don't want it

what do you mean "random items" can be turned off. are you saying that you can choose what item spawns, when and where on the stage? cuz i missed that memo. and if that's not the case, items are still random
meaning they should be disallowed.

not to mention characters like peach and diddy who rely on items normally become half as good if items are on.

dragoon is the most broken item in the game, are you serious?

also almost all offensive items are stronger than any character's moves. So we'd have to rename our tournaments to "camp and wait for item battles"

 

[Lightningmage]

I would go for Low on the item rate.
Smash Ball - I don't see why not. Any FS that is an instant kill is easy to block (Critical Hit, Great Aether, PK StarStorm.) Puff Up and Snakes' FS may be an issue on stages like Battlefield, but still. If it's not easily avoidable, it usually will not kill and just prove to be a minor annoyance.

Hood/Metal Box are transmuting items like the Mushroom as they alter the natural character. You could be trying to recover and a metal box land on you and drag you down too quick to react to and fall to your death. Hammer is a scrub item. Easily avoidable indeed, but I don't think many competitive players like to see the hammer. The others' don't look that bad, as they cannot kill and give all characters either extra range (Beam Sword), a projectile (throwing the item, Super Scope) or a way to add a little extra mindgames (pitfall, banana peel)

I see the argument against items, but at the same time, this is Smash. Items are a natural part of the game and those that don't OHKO or provide a totally unfair and unbalanced advantage for a character should be allowed. While being able to fight on equal ground proves skill, being able to quickly adapt to a situation and neutralize it is another showcase of prowess.

 

[Twin Dreams]

smashballs are broken...many can be comboed, mindgamed into for an insta-kill at 0 percent.
beam sword is broken, it reaches across the freaking sttage for cristsakes
bunny hood encourages camping
hammer is broken
metal box makes you die easier, and you often get it when you don't want it

what do you mean "random items" can be turned off. are you saying that you can choose what item spawns, when and where on the stage? cuz i missed that memo. and if that's not the case, items are still random
meaning they should be disallowed.

not to mention characters like peach and diddy who rely on items normally become half as good if items are on.

dragoon is the most broken item in the game, are you serious?

Smashballs I'm not to worried about. I recognize that they are extremely powerful, and you're right, I hadn't taken into the account they can be combo'd into. However, I say it's up to the responsibility of the player to weigh those factors with which character they plan on using. I don't think I'll be getting combo'd into a Final Smash if I can use ranged attacks to knock it out of them.


Beam Sword -- Not that good, increases range of characters so they can put up with characters that have longer range than them. Certainly not game breaking, and certainly doesn't reach as far as you claim.


Bunny Hood -- I could see that it encourages camping. If you can maintain a far distance away from your opponent, but the quick speed often makes it slightly harder to control, and I expect that players will be able to eventually land a hit on someone who is strictly keeping away from the opponent. (Also, this doesn't last forever.)


Hammer -- Wat? I don't live with my brother anymore, so I can't do all the testing I used to be able to do. However, using a hammer in Melee was asking to combo'd to death. Picking up the hammer was a really bad decision unless you had just spawned or your opponent was in the air.


Metal Boxes -- Yes, you'll be easier to combo and fall faster. However, your attacks become uninterrupted. Which is an even trade off in my opinion.



Random Items -- Pokeballs. I guess I could've just said that, but at the time I was also thinking of Party Balls. (Which I guess is also a container.)



Warp Star -- It is easy to dodge, and you can also go near an edge to scare him from trying to get to you.


Dragoon -- No. I will admit that it IS possible for all three of them to spawn near you at the same time. Or, rather, to fall near the through out the match with no chance of the opponent getting them. That's why I didn't want Home Run Bats either. (Not that home run bats are that good, but because noobs would complain about them as instant KOs.)

 

[theONEjanitor]

you shouldn't have to pay for a simple mistake with losing a stock at zero percent. which is basically the purpose of smashballs. also remember that tripping thing? a viable strategy could be to grab a smashball and wait for your opponent to trip. and i don't know why people are making it seem like smashballs are so easy to dodge because they arent almost everytime someone gets a smashball in this game they kill someone with it. I dont know what game you people have been playing.

that's not competition
that's your opponent getting lucky. which doesn't belong in tournament.
that's your opponent doing ONE move and killing you. that's nto how you test skill at the game. That's how you test who has enough muscular coordination in their thumb to press the B button once and get a kill.

have you seen beam swords? they reach at LEAST 3 or 4 character lengths in front you with f-smash. NO character naturally has reach of anywhere near that length. Again, what game are you people playing. In every game I've ever played, whenever someone got the beam sword, they began to own. its a broken and unfair item.

people could do inifinite waveshines in melee. i think we can handle the bunny hood. it doesn't last forever, but you don't need forever to win a match.

all you have to do with a hammer is get under you opponent on most stages, then they die. at like forty percent. the hammer out prioritized and out ranges every standard attack in the game. you can't exactly "combo" them unless you're throwing projectiles. the downside is you can't do anything else and you can't recover but its not an even tradeoff imo.


also, you fail to address the fact that you CAN'T control, what, when, and where these things will spawn. that's random luck, which is the opposite of what belongs in the tournament.

 

[Twin Dreams]

you shouldn't have to pay for a simple mistake with losing a stock at zero percent. which is basically the purpose of smashballs. also remember that tripping thing? a viable strategy could be to grab a smashball and wait for your opponent to trip. and i don't know why people are making it seem like smashballs are so easy to dodge because they arent almost everytime someone gets a smashball in this game they kill someone with it. I dont know what game you people have been playing.

that's not competition
that's your opponent getting lucky. which doesn't belong in tournament.
that's your opponent doing ONE move and killing you. that's nto how you test skill at the game. That's how you test who has enough muscular coordination in their thumb to press the B button once and get a kill.

have you seen beam swords? they reach at LEAST 3 or 4 character lengths in front you with f-smash. NO character naturally has reach of anywhere near that length. Again, what game are you people playing. In every game I've ever played, whenever someone got the beam sword, they began to own. its a broken and unfair item.

people could do inifinite waveshines in melee. i think we can handle the bunny hood. it doesn't last forever, but you don't need forever to win a match.

all you have to do with a hammer is get under you opponent on most stages, then they die. at like forty percent. the hammer out prioritized and out ranges every standard attack in the game. you can't exactly "combo" them unless you're throwing projectiles. the downside is you can't do anything else and you can't recover but its not an even tradeoff imo.


also, you fail to address the fact that you CAN'T control, what, when, and where these things will spawn. that's random luck, which is the opposite of what belongs in the tournament.

Ok, so, if you're seriously still arguing about the Smash Balls you need to give me specific ones that are unavoidable. Then we can discuss those ones, and we can argue over Smash Balls.

Hammer -- I haven't tested this in brawl, but in melee all you did was get to the edge and they couldn't approach you. (Shield grab > Hammer) Like I said, pretty much the only useful time for a hammer was when someone was falling, and if you missed and they got on the ground, you certainly weren't going anywhere near them.

Beam Sword -- Beam Swords are dodge-able right? I mean, assuming that a beam sword puts you at an uneven advantage, and there's no items or attacks you can use to throw at him... You can still trick him into F-smashing and hit him in the lag.

 

[Brahma]

Hammer and Gold hammer aren't that bad IMO. Both have some frames when you pick it up where you can easily be hit, and if you get hit offstage with a hammer, well, you're dead. You can also edgestall to avoid hammer, run away, shieldgrab. Also if you get a hammer where the head falls off or the gold squeaky hammer you are screwed. IMO it's a risk picking up the hammer, as it can help you or hinder you.

Honestly I don't think starman is that bad either. Yes, it grants you invincibility, but in no way guarantees an attack. The opponent can still block, roll, airdodge. In Brawl the defensive mechanics make it a lot easier to avoid an apponent for the 20 seconds or so of invincibility. IMO the biggest issue here is if you get knocked off, you can be easily edghogged by an invincible opponent.

Cracker launcher can be powerful, but you trade movement for firepower, and can be hit if you're carrying one fairly easily.

Warp star is slow and easily airdodged. Dragoon is airdodgeable as well, and usually takes an equal amount of luck and effort to put together.

What about bumper and springboard? I don't see any particular reason to not include them.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I didn't want to include bumper since it seemed a little powerful, however, it is up to player to avoid it once it is placed. Dragoon and star men can "favor" people. I've had plenty of matches when an off-stage Starman falls on my opponent. No one likes it when that happens.