A reductive approach to Sheik w/ some training exercises

[hologram summer]

GUIDE: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x2rzKNU47mYV3zFt31F3qJoj4mSytRa9lnSbarYQK5s/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Scroll]

You sir, are a god.
Noone can fricken put these things into words, but you managed to do so.
Please write a novel
But finish this post first.

 

[SquareWave__]

Amazing post, I finally made an account to encourage you to finish this!
I like you approach a lot in describing some of the more subtle details of safe, efficient play. I think this type of rougher, simplified analysis is a great starting point for players to develop more advanced and nuanced technical responses when in matches.

 

[hologram summer]

thanks for the feedback guys! I'm working on making it a little more clear and concise.

 

[Archelon]

How long till guide vs Marth? Great guide BTW.

 

[Scroll]

Could I ask you to post a reply here when ever you update the OP? As well as say what part you wrote?

 

[hologram summer]

Could I ask you to post a reply here when ever you update the OP? As well as say what part you wrote?

Yes I can definitely do that. I've been a bit busy recently but I will let you know for sure.

How long till guide vs Marth? Great guide BTW.

Soon. I'm doing spacies first, then Marth.

 

[hologram summer]

1/26 7:58 AM: Started writeup for Falco analysis video and matchup overview. Updated some Fox zoning information. Fixed some of the language used to make it more clear.

 

[Eonn]

Amazing stuff hologram summer ! I look forward to reading more, please post whenever you update the OP.

I also have a zoning related question, how do you deal with Fox's who love mixing up short hops, full hops, and double jumps? I get destroyed by his vertical dash dance.

And are you adding a section about trapping opponents in the corner? I've been trying to work on that personally but everyone, especially Foxes, escape quite often.

 

[hologram summer]

Amazing stuff hologram summer ! I look forward to reading more, please post whenever you update the OP.

I also have a zoning related question, how do you deal with Fox's who love mixing up short hops, full hops, and double jumps? I get destroyed by his vertical dash dance.

And are you adding a section about trapping opponents in the corner? I've been trying to work on that personally but everyone, especially Foxes, escape quite often.

1. Thanks! I'll update when I update the posts for sure.

2. If a fox is jump happy you can challenge him with Rising Nair. What you pretty much have to do is stuff his jumps before they happen by running away (rolling, running, platforms) to a spot where he can't touch you from one jump's distance, and then re-establishing your space. The distance plays a big factor since Fox will try to short hop spam at a little bit outside your tilt distance to catch you attempting approaches or jumping forward. Stationary jumping nairs, fairs, or even retreating backairs can shut him down from a lot of angles. In general, you really don't want to have Fox coming at you from above. The way to avoid this is to keep him horizontally medium range when you see him trying to get above you. The trick is, really don't approach. He can't hit you with anything if he doesn't start using lasers if you stay outside of his range. People who spam jumping in neutral are succeptible to gettting smacked with rising aerials, and if you're good you could even time a forward tilt at high percent after you wave dash back.

To deal with double jumps, think about what situations Fox would rather approach you from above then from horizontally. Maybe it is because he doesn't feel safe playing the ground game. If that's so, you can try to read the direction of his double jump and hit him with upair, or retreat towards the corner platform. Also, don't be afraid to shield his approaches and then roll out or something. Forcing a mistake is much better than eating a drillshine.

3. I definitely am adding a section about that. Keeping opponents in the corner I think is a really important of Sheik play that isn't talked about often since most people focus on going straight to edgeguarding.

 

[Eonn]

1. Thanks! I'll update when I update the posts for sure.

2. If a fox is jump happy you can challenge him with Rising Nair. What you pretty much have to do is stuff his jumps before they happen by running away (rolling, running, platforms) to a spot where he can't touch you from one jump's distance, and then re-establishing your space. The distance plays a big factor since Fox will try to short hop spam at a little bit outside your tilt distance to catch you attempting approaches or jumping forward. Stationary jumping nairs, fairs, or even retreating backairs can shut him down from a lot of angles. In general, you really don't want to have Fox coming at you from above. The way to avoid this is to keep him horizontally medium range when you see him trying to get above you. The trick is, really don't approach. He can't hit you with anything if he doesn't start using lasers if you stay outside of his range. People who spam jumping in neutral are succeptible to gettting smacked with rising aerials, and if you're good you could even time a forward tilt at high percent after you wave dash back.

To deal with double jumps, think about what situations Fox would rather approach you from above then from horizontally. Maybe it is because he doesn't feel safe playing the ground game. If that's so, you can try to read the direction of his double jump and hit him with upair, or retreat towards the corner platform. Also, don't be afraid to shield his approaches and then roll out or something. Forcing a mistake is much better than eating a drillshine.

3. I definitely am adding a section about that. Keeping opponents in the corner I think is a really important of Sheik play that isn't talked about often since most people focus on going straight to edgeguarding.

Thanks! I'll definitely try that stuff out in friendlies at my local tomorrow. Looking forward to the next update on the guide!

 

[hologram summer]

Thanks! I'll definitely try that stuff out in friendlies at my local tomorrow. Looking forward to the next update on the guide!

Yeah it might be easier to explain with something visual. Let me give you an example video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXiqlxcEeXA (2nd game)

Sort of similar to what I said, its very much about being aware of the horizontal spacing. Wavedash back->ftilt will beat a lot of bad spacings.

--> @ 4:22 to 4:25 M2K WD back to ftilt to catch jumps, succeeds at 4:27 in catching an instant jump
--> @ 4:49 catches him again with ftilt punishing a full hop bair
--> @ 5:17 Nair stuffs jump approach
--> @ 7:02 pre-emptive Nair
--> @ 7:38 beats double jump --> after this, leffen decides to stop jumping as much
--> @ 7:54 even fair works if they are just jumping towards you. establish your space!

 

[hologram summer]

Updated main post
-->Expanded section vs. Falco
-->Rewrote some thoughts on the Fox matchup
-->Added some information for Peach zoning @ short range
-->Fixed some writing
-->Started adding what options to expect vs. Fox at certain ranges, soon to be for each character

 

[hologram summer]

-->Added a section on how to deal with Fox long range running cc shine pressure

 

[Eonn]

Will this ever evolve into a complete guide to Sheik's neutral instead of just the zoning aspect? Also could you elaborate on tilts a bit? I never use them outside of punishes as they always seem to be CCed or baited out, but having an entire neutral based on AC fair, boost grab, and dash back seems to be really predictable.

Keep up the good work though, I'm looking forward to the CFalcon section soon! I struggle quite a bit against him and don't really understand how to zone him out since he threatens such a large and dynamic space.

 

[hologram summer]

Will this ever evolve into a complete guide to Sheik's neutral instead of just the zoning aspect? Also could you elaborate on tilts a bit? I never use them outside of punishes as they always seem to be CCed or baited out, but having an entire neutral based on AC fair, boost grab, and dash back seems to be really predictable.

Keep up the good work though, I'm looking forward to the CFalcon section soon! I struggle quite a bit against him and don't really understand how to zone him out since he threatens such a large and dynamic space.

I wonder if it will. I've been avoiding doing that because I don't think I'm good enough yet to give a guide on what works. My approach to the game has changed from one that's like "this should work in theory" to "have I seen this work at a high level or in tournaments." I think I want to still flavor this guide more as a "How to be aware of what's going on" and take a more compartmentalized approach to Sheik. A full neutral guide would require a lot of thinking, but We Will See.

So, a quick thing about her tilts is that they're both the scariest and most threatening moves and sometimes the worst moves. All of them are punishable on shield, all of them are CC able, and ftilt and dtilt are definitely whiff punishable if spaced correctly. I think utilt is pretty safe from being whiff punished. So yeah, if your gameplan is based completely on AC fair, boost grab and dash back (bair should be in there somewhere too) you probably aren't much of a threat. A quick note: I always buffer crouch cancel when I throw out a tilt because if I get hit out of it at low percent sometimes I can just grab them if they're going in.

Ftilt: has utility as one of the best "you ****ed up" moves at mid-high percentages. Wavedash back forward tilt spaces you at a near perfect spacing for it, hitting with the tip of it or whiffing slightly to catch bad jumps. It beats jumps, fast shield releases and badly timed approaches, but to get a little in depth of what its for you have to have a sense of who can really punish it. You really have to break the move into two parts: a fully spaced ftilt, meaning a good one, and a bad one, hitting with the inside of her thigh. You never want the latter almost ever. But you definitely need this move, as weird as it feels to say. Its risk only increases at the percentage you're at (as with any punishable move) so if you find yourself low relative to them its Ok to try to secure a kill with this move. jab->ftilt on shield or on hit also is good because it beats jumps. It's also fast enough that if they roll after the jab and your ftilt comes out you can still grab punish them on reaction I think. I feel like I have a lot to say about this move but I can't organize it exactly right now. I would say it's arguable the most useful of her tilts despite it being the riskiest

Dtilt: Probably used the least vs. spacies but DECIMATES marth and some floaties. I don't even know if Marth can punish it if you space it because while in the crouching position you're gonna crouch cancel anything that isn't WD OOS grab (which idk if is a real punish anyway). You can also use it if you do successfully CC a bad move that hits high in the air like Marth fair. I use Dtilt sometimes when people are ledge dashing, catching them right outside of it. It gets CCed really easily though by spacies and pretty much guarantees you'll get grabbed so it isn't worth it at low percent. It also is a good pick me up move if they are DI ing a combo away and you might not want to hit them with dash attack which lets them DI further away. You can sometimes to running CC dtilt or wd dtilt to pop them back up. This move feels like...it should be just used randomly as an option if you find yourself in a safe position to do so. You might be able to do things like AC fair on shield->dash away wavedash turnaround dtilt but that seems a little slow. I think it has less and less utility the higher level players you play and I rarely see people use it outside of some combo situations.

Uptilt: I think its an underrated move but its also sometimes hard to use because of how hard it is to execute CC uptilt. If you could CC uptilt this move would be very devastating. The second hit of it pretty much guarantees you a grab since spacies can't shine you after its knockback. On shield, you can be grabbed in between the first and second hit, but I think you can grab them after the second hit for free. The best utility of this move is in combos, but it also has uses to catch people trying to dash off of platforms. If you want to really threaten someone, stand underneath a side platform or just outside of it and uptilt. They most likely will realize that coming down that way isn't safe, then you get a pseudo 50/50 where you can predict they'll escape to the top platform and upair to catch them, or realize they will drop down and boost grab. If they stay there, you can stay there. On fountain of dreams and Yoshis this move actually hits them from under the platform so it does a lot of bad things to fast fallers. I would say that this move is just better on those stages because of that.

To break it down into a more mnemonic tldr type of thing --

General rule: Tilts don't even exist until fast fallers are at 25% and up
Ftilt: Stay away from me, Don't approach me
Uptilt: Free grab on shield if I hit with the second hit, Free damage underneath the platforms on Yoshis and FoD, Don't run off the platforms
Dtilt: CC dtilt beats Marth, Free random popup sometimes, not that good though because it gets CCed easily


Captain Falcon is coming soon! The matchup is relatively straightforward but you do have to be careful vs him. In general though, CF is someone that zoning will get you a lot of mileage with if you take advantage because you want to convert to a grab/tech chase opportunity as much as possible since he has terrible out of shield options and no good "get off me" moves

 

[Jackson]

Wow, awesome post! This will be really helpful as my spacing is frankly pretty poor.

On a similar note, to do the really fast low hitting AC fairs like M2K does, do you fair slightly after you initiate a fast fall at the apex of your jump, or some other kind of timing? Sometimes mine seem to be kind of high and slower.

Like how m2k fairs here: https://youtu.be/7SQGp4hvWxg?t=124

 

[Eonn]

I wonder if it will. I've been avoiding doing that because I don't think I'm good enough yet to give a guide on what works. My approach to the game has changed from one that's like "this should work in theory" to "have I seen this work at a high level or in tournaments." I think I want to still flavor this guide more as a "How to be aware of what's going on" and take a more compartmentalized approach to Sheik. A full neutral guide would require a lot of thinking, but We Will See.

So, a quick thing about her tilts is that they're both the scariest and most threatening moves and sometimes the worst moves. All of them are punishable on shield, all of them are CC able, and ftilt and dtilt are definitely whiff punishable if spaced correctly. I think utilt is pretty safe from being whiff punished. So yeah, if your gameplan is based completely on AC fair, boost grab and dash back (bair should be in there somewhere too) you probably aren't much of a threat. A quick note: I always buffer crouch cancel when I throw out a tilt because if I get hit out of it at low percent sometimes I can just grab them if they're going in.

Ftilt: has utility as one of the best "you ****ed up" moves at mid-high percentages. Wavedash back forward tilt spaces you at a near perfect spacing for it, hitting with the tip of it or whiffing slightly to catch bad jumps. It beats jumps, fast shield releases and badly timed approaches, but to get a little in depth of what its for you have to have a sense of who can really punish it. You really have to break the move into two parts: a fully spaced ftilt, meaning a good one, and a bad one, hitting with the inside of her thigh. You never want the latter almost ever. But you definitely need this move, as weird as it feels to say. Its risk only increases at the percentage you're at (as with any punishable move) so if you find yourself low relative to them its Ok to try to secure a kill with this move. jab->ftilt on shield or on hit also is good because it beats jumps. It's also fast enough that if they roll after the jab and your ftilt comes out you can still grab punish them on reaction I think. I feel like I have a lot to say about this move but I can't organize it exactly right now. I would say it's arguable the most useful of her tilts despite it being the riskiest

Dtilt: Probably used the least vs. spacies but DECIMATES marth and some floaties. I don't even know if Marth can punish it if you space it because while in the crouching position you're gonna crouch cancel anything that isn't WD OOS grab (which idk if is a real punish anyway). You can also use it if you do successfully CC a bad move that hits high in the air like Marth fair. I use Dtilt sometimes when people are ledge dashing, catching them right outside of it. It gets CCed really easily though by spacies and pretty much guarantees you'll get grabbed so it isn't worth it at low percent. It also is a good pick me up move if they are DI ing a combo away and you might not want to hit them with dash attack which lets them DI further away. You can sometimes to running CC dtilt or wd dtilt to pop them back up. This move feels like...it should be just used randomly as an option if you find yourself in a safe position to do so. You might be able to do things like AC fair on shield->dash away wavedash turnaround dtilt but that seems a little slow. I think it has less and less utility the higher level players you play and I rarely see people use it outside of some combo situations.

Uptilt: I think its an underrated move but its also sometimes hard to use because of how hard it is to execute CC uptilt. If you could CC uptilt this move would be very devastating. The second hit of it pretty much guarantees you a grab since spacies can't shine you after its knockback. On shield, you can be grabbed in between the first and second hit, but I think you can grab them after the second hit for free. The best utility of this move is in combos, but it also has uses to catch people trying to dash off of platforms. If you want to really threaten someone, stand underneath a side platform or just outside of it and uptilt. They most likely will realize that coming down that way isn't safe, then you get a pseudo 50/50 where you can predict they'll escape to the top platform and upair to catch them, or realize they will drop down and boost grab. If they stay there, you can stay there. On fountain of dreams and Yoshis this move actually hits them from under the platform so it does a lot of bad things to fast fallers. I would say that this move is just better on those stages because of that.

To break it down into a more mnemonic tldr type of thing --

General rule: Tilts don't even exist until fast fallers are at 25% and up
Ftilt: Stay away from me, Don't approach me
Uptilt: Free grab on shield if I hit with the second hit, Free damage underneath the platforms on Yoshis and FoD, Don't run off the platforms
Dtilt: CC dtilt beats Marth, Free random popup sometimes, not that good though because it gets CCed easily


Captain Falcon is coming soon! The matchup is relatively straightforward but you do have to be careful vs him. In general though, CF is someone that zoning will get you a lot of mileage with if you take advantage because you want to convert to a grab/tech chase opportunity as much as possible since he has terrible out of shield options and no good "get off me" moves

Thanks, super helpful stuff!

A couple more scrubby questions though:

First, what exactly are the inputs for always buffering ASDI down? I know you can use cstick down and hold down while doing something like ftilt, but I don't understand how characters like Marth and Fox are able to dash dance while simultaneously crouching. Do they hold cstick down while dash dancing or something?

Second, is it possible to zone out puff? All I seem to be able to do is bair if she is above and to the side, or needle if she's diagonally down. I spend the rest of my time running away. Either way I look forward to that section as well! Any ideas on when the next few updates will be? (don't mean to rush you though, you obviously have a lot more important things to do other than write up a guide on Smash )

 

[hologram summer]

Wow, awesome post! This will be really helpful as my spacing is frankly pretty poor.

On a similar note, to do the really fast low hitting AC fairs like M2K does, do you fair slightly after you initiate a fast fall at the apex of your jump, or some other kind of timing? Sometimes mine seem to be kind of high and slower.

Like how m2k fairs here: https://youtu.be/7SQGp4hvWxg?t=124

There are two ways to do it

1) Is to fair near the apex of your jump, then fast fall. There is a specific window where you can hit the fair as late as possible and get the fast fall and still AC.

Not sure how useful frame information is to you but here's an excerpt from Druggedfox talking about it
http://www.portraitinsmash.blogspot.com/2015/07/sheik-shield-pressure.html
"Relevant information regarding sheik's short hop and fastfall: The earliest possible frame for sheik to fastfall is frame 19 of her short hop. If you hold down starting on frame 16, it will buffer (so there is a 3 frame window, for frames 16, 17 and 18) your fastfall frame perfectly on the 19th frame."

The trick is to hit the fair, recognize you hit a shield or hit them, and then fast fall. The fast fall input needs to come after you see the hitsparks.

2) You can fast fall then hit the fair right before you hit the ground and L cancel it. They give you about the same amount of frame advantage so either is fine, but be wary that doing (2) as opposed to (1) means that if your opponent is fast enough and you're jumping right next to them, they can just hit you while you're in the air.

 

[Eonn]

Do you have any video examples that showcase running CC shine pressure to go with your section on it? Also, why does AC fair not work on FD versus running shine? You didn't mention anything about platforms. hologram summer

 

[Atrioc]

This is an absolutely amazing post that has given me a lot to think about.

Just want to give you a real big commendation, this is a huge amount of work and is bound to be greatly appreciated by anyone who takes the time to read and appreciate it.

 

[Jackson]

This is an absolutely amazing post that has given me a lot to think about.

Just want to give you a real big commendation, this is a huge amount of work and is bound to be greatly appreciated by anyone who takes the time to read and appreciate it.

Yo what's up Atrioc, you're the Twitch guy who was on zero to hero right?

 

[hologram summer]

Do you have any video examples that showcase running CC shine pressure to go with your section on it? Also, why does AC fair not work on FD versus running shine? You didn't mention anything about platforms. hologram summer

I should definitely find some videos.

On FD, it is a little less threatening for sure, but there are many things to worry about vs. Fox on that damn stage. For example, full screen spacing means you have to play the projectile game, which you will lose. Then when you enter the 3/4 stage spacing Fox has the CC shine DD mixup. What happens is that if you preemtively try to punish a dash in he can Dd and punish with grab or CC shine on reaction. The reason AC fair doesn't work that well is because a lot of the time Fox is trying to punish your jump. So you need to have a really good idea of the spacing of Sheik's jump in neutral that is safe. DruggedFox has a really good post on it:
" 1) Don't jump at a range where if he runs at you immediately you'll either: a) get hit before you can set up the spacing, or b) whiff the fair as he's running at you, and then be in lag as he reaches you. This is specifically in reference to fox, as I think it's the best example of using the fair incorrectly, although it can be generalized easily (don't jump at ranges where immediate approaches threaten you, unless you have a read/good reason)."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNcEuGB1Vbc
look @ 3:20 for what happens if you try walling with fair. It works sometimes but if you jump prematurely you'll get hit offstage. Ice ultimately takes the stock but he was playing with fire at the percentage he was at. @5:00 onwards you see this sort of scuffle vs Fox again. One option I didn't talk about which Mango goes for is run up shield, which catches Sheik's who aren't prepared to do a frame perfect AC fair and lets Fox roll back if he feels threatened

And to append the last point, for all intents and purposes, you probably won't have a good reason for intentionally messing up the timing of your jump.

Platforms I definitely have to talk about for sure but the same thing applies. Going on the platform is just technically a move that has certain timing, he can react to it if he's close enough and SH upair you or fullhop nair you. If you're fast enough and his timing is off sometimes you can dropthrough nair or fair.


I'm realizing that the best format for a guide like this may not be in a longpost on Smashboards, so I may transfer everything to Google Docs or something. It's much easier to read if I can divide by sections and pages, provide some pictures, etc.

 

[hologram summer]

So I'm going to migrate everything to Google Docs and Google Sheets.

I'm going to have a Google sheet separated by matchup. Each sheet will have a table that lists ranges, options, responses, and general gameplan vs characters. Basically the section I have titled HOW TO ZONE EACH CHARACTER will be more tabular.

I think this is better visually and makes it easier to read. It also will let me analyze videos much better instead of having to format with the weird --> that I keep using

 

[Doxy]

Ftilt: has utility as one of the best "you ****ed up" moves at mid-high percentages. Wavedash back forward tilt spaces you at a near perfect spacing for it, hitting with the tip of it or whiffing slightly to catch bad jumps. It beats jumps, fast shield releases and badly timed approaches, but to get a little in depth of what its for you have to have a sense of who can really punish it. You really have to break the move into two parts: a fully spaced ftilt, meaning a good one, and a bad one, hitting with the inside of her thigh. You never want the latter almost ever. But you definitely need this move, as weird as it feels to say. Its risk only increases at the percentage you're at (as with any punishable move) so if you find yourself low relative to them its Ok to try to secure a kill with this move. jab->ftilt on shield or on hit also is good because it beats jumps. It's also fast enough that if they roll after the jab and your ftilt comes out you can still grab punish them on reaction I think. I feel like I have a lot to say about this move but I can't organize it exactly right now. I would say it's arguable the most useful of her tilts despite it being the riskiest

F-tilt is extremely good against falcon due to the way he approaches. Generally in neutral at high to mid percentage falcon will approach with a fair (from my experience) falcon's other option is to approach using a grab > upthrow > fair or bair (depending on DI). At kill percents I have had a lot of success by spacing my shiek through dash dancing and a wave dash to make quick adjustments before falcon commits to an approach. The goal I use is to stay under a platform (likely because of the way sheik zones as you outlined above). In the neutral at these levels falcon can become a sort of glass cannon and f-tilt can turn around the momentum and put falcon on the defensive.

Before throwing out f -tilt, I watch for two possible tells of what my opponent is doing:
Falcon short hops after dashing towards sheik. This is a hard commit and it will likely be followed with a knee.
After I wave dash back falcon continues to approach without dash dance or wave dashing (this is difficult to read but I usually see a grab follow this type of approach.

 

[hologram summer]

F-tilt is extremely good against falcon due to the way he approaches. Generally in neutral at high to mid percentage falcon will approach with a fair (from my experience) falcon's other option is to approach using a grab > upthrow > fair or bair (depending on DI). At kill percents I have had a lot of success by spacing my shiek through dash dancing and a wave dash to make quick adjustments before falcon commits to an approach. The goal I use is to stay under a platform (likely because of the way sheik zones as you outlined above). In the neutral at these levels falcon can become a sort of glass cannon and f-tilt can turn around the momentum and put falcon on the defensive.

Before throwing out f -tilt, I watch for two possible tells of what my opponent is doing:
Falcon short hops after dashing towards sheik. This is a hard commit and it will likely be followed with a knee.
After I wave dash back falcon continues to approach without dash dance or wave dashing (this is difficult to read but I usually see a grab follow this type of approach.

That makes sense. I pretty much do the same thing as you vs. Falcon because f-tilt covers a lot of air space right in front of Sheik and his short hop height works to that. Falcons really like to double jump to bait and a CF with good reactions can DJ bait your f-tilt and then stomp you, but its relatively safe. Wavedash back f-tilt will get you a lot of mileage for sure, but I've been on the receiving end of mistiming it and getting kneed.

One thing that's super important to know about CF is that he can only really roll out of sheild safely vs good sheik shield pressure. Any jumps get stuffed by grab or f-tilt so he really wants to stay away from you a lot of the time.

I think a lot of Sheiks will get out-mobilized by him and that's how they end up losing. You don't want to get caught up in the trap that's like "oh he's moving a lot, let me stop him by defending myself center stage with meaty moves," because Sheik can't safely control that much space with just tilts (beware crouch cancel). At kill percents this doesn't really matter though.

 

[Eonn]

I think a lot of Sheiks will get out-mobilized by him and that's how they end up losing. You don't want to get caught up in the trap that's like "oh he's moving a lot, let me stop him by defending myself center stage with meaty moves," because Sheik can't safely control that much space with just tilts (beware crouch cancel). At kill percents this doesn't really matter though.

Yeah, that seems to be one of my biggest problems in the matchup. I'll stop moving and start ftilting or throwing out fairs/nairs trying to stuff him and it gets me killed very easily.

Also, what do you think of Santiago's Sheik? How does he make it work? I was watching his set versus Lucky at UCI and I rarely saw him use AC fair or grab in neutral. To my untrained eye, it just looked like he was constantly approaching with nair and sometimes throwing out bairs. I don't really know how he managed to get so many punishes without grabbing and why Lucky couldn't win just by dash dancing and using running CC shine pressure. Any chance you could take a look at the set and do a mini-analysis? I really like his Sheik and want to play similarly but I don't understand it at all (heck, without this guide I wouldn't understand traditional Sheik play whatsoever).

Also I really like the idea of having a google doc for this guide with tables for ranges, opponent's options, and your good options to beat theirs for different matchups. Would make things more easily digestible. Thanks again for this guide though, it's soooooooooo helpful.

 

[Doxy]

Yeah, that seems to be one of my biggest problems in the matchup. I'll stop moving and start ftilting or throwing out fairs/nairs trying to stuff him and it gets me killed very easily.

Also, what do you think of Santiago's Sheik? How does he make it work? I was watching his set versus Lucky at UCI and I rarely saw him use AC fair or grab in neutral. To my untrained eye, it just looked like he was constantly approaching with nair and sometimes throwing out bairs. I don't really know how he managed to get so many punishes without grabbing and why Lucky couldn't win just by dash dancing and using running CC shine pressure. Any chance you could take a look at the set and do a mini-analysis? I really like his Sheik and want to play similarly but I don't understand it at all (heck, without this guide I wouldn't understand traditional Sheik play whatsoever).

Also I really like the idea of having a google doc for this guide with tables for ranges, opponent's options, and your good options to beat theirs for different matchups. Would make things more easily digestible. Thanks again for this guide though, it's soooooooooo helpful.

We should totally make a google doc. I think one of the things you mentioned is throwing out moves that aren't safe. It is completely fine to throw those moves out but you need to make sure that you are doing it safely right and that is sometimes the hardest part is determining when is it okay to throw out a nair for example. Sheik has a lot of options to control space and my strategy against falcon is just to force him into throwing out an unsafe approach. I space falcon out with wave dashes mostly and you can almost always tell when falcon is going to attack. Sheik can zone falcon out so easily. Nair OOS is a good option if he approaches from above for a few reasons: It comes out very fast, if your opponent shields after a dair on shield then you can nair again and you have an equal opportunity to grab after landing. I would explain more if I had time but just trust me it's a good option.

 

[Str8Bustr]

I'm a 110% behind a Google Doc, my dude. This guide really changed the way I look at Sheik

 

[hologram summer]

Yeah, that seems to be one of my biggest problems in the matchup. I'll stop moving and start ftilting or throwing out fairs/nairs trying to stuff him and it gets me killed very easily.

Also, what do you think of Santiago's Sheik? How does he make it work? I was watching his set versus Lucky at UCI and I rarely saw him use AC fair or grab in neutral. To my untrained eye, it just looked like he was constantly approaching with nair and sometimes throwing out bairs. I don't really know how he managed to get so many punishes without grabbing and why Lucky couldn't win just by dash dancing and using running CC shine pressure. Any chance you could take a look at the set and do a mini-analysis? I really like his Sheik and want to play similarly but I don't understand it at all (heck, without this guide I wouldn't understand traditional Sheik play whatsoever).

Also I really like the idea of having a google doc for this guide with tables for ranges, opponent's options, and your good options to beat theirs for different matchups. Would make things more easily digestible. Thanks again for this guide though, it's soooooooooo helpful.

I was watching this match recently! Santi plays Sheik a little different that is true, but he's also said on twitter that the matchup is unwinnable unless you do a couple tech chases haha. But I can definitely analyze this match at some point, just been busy lately.

Some things I definitely want to point out that are really cool is that Santi goes for needle turnaround bair as an approach which is kind of awesome. Don't really see that too often. He also likes to put out uptilt center stage to catch Fox nairing and fullhopping towards you as an approach which also got him a lot of mileage. He also loves f-tilt. I want to say that Lucky wasn't punishing him that well but eh.

 

[hologram summer]

Updated the link with the Google doc. I'll be updating it fairly regularly but as of right now it's a copy paste with an improved section with pictures and a little more formalized. I left comments open on it in case anyone wants to fact check me or call me out.

 

[Eonn]

hologram summer What's the importance of mixing up AC fair timings? If you fast fall and throw out a fair simultaneously at the peak of your jump it seems to cover the most space in front of you.

What are some situations where you wouldn't fast fall and fair later?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

If you wanted to mix up timings on shield and stuff.

I.e. You think they're going to jump oos or try and stuff you with an aerial so you do an earlier fair.

Alternatively you think they're going to stay in shield longer so you wait (at which point nair becomes a good option too).

 

[hologram summer]

Hi everyone, I'm somewhat necroposting this because I'm going to be actively updating this guide since I've become active in Melee again. I have some new ideas on how Sheik is played and how to play her at an intermediate level but I think a lot of my concepts are the same and hold true. I'll be updating the google doc and this post in the near future.