A Rarely asked pillaring/combo question.. please answer

[HateOnMe]

Im new to melee so sorry in advance if this question has been asked before or is very obvious to everyone. I am trying to main falco and one of his best tech. is pillaring. If i actually hit you with the shine during the pillar i would have to follow up with a aerial but my question is, what buttons are best to press in order to follow up into the air (diagonal up analog, or forward Y).. see, i want to be able to use some sort of combination that would make it as easy as possible to do since i cant react so fast if i actually catch the person during the pillar(mind you i am terrible at pillaring in the first place). i also noticed that this question is more about the combo than it is about pillaring so apologies for the confusion..
another question i have is whether or not i should previously hold down on the stick then press y and A or should i press Y then d+a.. my final question would be, do i really have to fast fall my dairs because i see that the shuffle sort of works fine with out it unless im missing something really big..if u cant answer the questions but you happen to be a great falco player, just tell me exactly what you do when it comes to this and ill be fine =)
thanks for your help

 

[Incronaut]

a lot of the "what buttons should i press" questions usually end up with a "whatever is most comfortable for you" kinda answer... unless theres a specific thing that can only be done with a certain button combo.. but thats rare if ever...

i personally waveshine out of the shine, then chase them from below then jump up... so aerial movement isnt AS big of a deal... but i press Y when i leave shine... the control stick is really best out of a shine if you need something super quick... but most scenarios dont require that, so Y or X is perfectly fine (in fact, probably preferred, but again its based on comfort the most)

also, for most of the aerials, use the c-stick because if you press down+a for dair, you might accidentally fastfall, or miss your fastfall opportunity because youre already holding down on the control stick... the c-stick allows for a lot freer movement which will help a lot in the long run

hope this helped! O_o"

 

[FoxLisk]

there's probably a rule agains tposting this thread twice. but uh

you might as well use Y, it's a little easier. if you're used to X, though, it's no big deal.
yes you have to fast fall every single time.
and:

shield pressure (pillaring) doesn't actually work with falco. any character can get out of it, so the real answer to this question is this:

you probably want to land one dair or nair near the bottom of their shield, shine, and then rising nair backwards, doubleshine, or shinegrab, or just WD backwards sometimes. dair -> shining over and over again will just get you punished against someone who knows what they're doing. and basically in this situation the shine won't hit unless they try to shield grab you. if it does, though, uh, react fast enough (shouldnt be too hard) to not be doing anything else laggy, and then follow? i cant really explain that part well. i sort of know if my shine is going to land or not most of the time, and if it is I'll WD forward and then ****.

 

[HateOnMe]

thanks fox and incronaut =) and my bad for the double post(i thought the fourms where dead and i figured if i would post twice in 2 diff sections i would be able to get at least 1 reply... luckily i got like 7 in total =)
by the way, you said a person can get out of shine pressuring but how about when the shine hits and u follow it with a dair and repeat? will they be able to somehow escape that too, cuz i thought it was somewhat of an infinite.. sort of like fox'x waveshine thing..

 

[FoxLisk]

no, that is not an infinite. depending on how you do it, there are two possibilities:

if you hit with the dair early (either on your way up or high on their shield) they can grab you before you can get to the ground and shine

if you hit with the dair late and then shine, they can either
a) grab you on your way up if you dair late again or
b) grab you after the dair hits if you dair early and don't fadeaway.

exceptions:
-if you hit a fox or falco with a dair or a shine they can shine out of shield at basically any point, so you have to space it well. i believe samus' up-B works similarly, and I think even peach's does, too.
-link, y link, and samus cannot grab you out of **** because their grabs are too slow
-sheiks, particularly, like to nair OoS you, which I'm not clear on the timing of because I don't play as or against sheik much

-anyone can also buffer a roll (or spotdodge, but that doesn't really help) after the shine.

also: nothing fox does is a true infinite as far as i know. maybe you can combo peach/link across a stage with waveshines, but i think even they can get out of it with proper SDI, and i dont think you can turn them around if they SDI.

so uh. mixup your pressure game. fadeaway nair to bait grabs is good, doubleshining can work, shinegrabbing is wildly underused. if you predict they're gonna buffer a roll, WD in the appropriate direction and ****, etc.

 

[Incronaut]

DIing made the smash game go insane to insane degrees!

You should look at Mogwai's first post about falco stuff: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203781

its really really useful... somewhat far down the thread you'll see stuff about frames and pillaring... its pretty clear there where the open spots are and by changing between early, late, and typical pillars (in different orders of course) you can make them escaping be a bigger hassle

i always just do typical pillars over and over until they figure it out (which is like the second time)

 

[HateOnMe]

**** thanks again both of you , although i dont think ill ever be that good at it.. can any one really do all 3 dair types on command?.. i mean if ur able to do that then thats just insane.. ill stick with my y-->D+a as quickly as possible and hopefully ital work for bout 2 or 3 times.. which brings me to my final questions. if the player isnt doing anything is it possible to continue the combo perfectly because i noticed that after i hit them with the shine and jump dair and continue this combo about 2 or 3 times i cant do it agin without having to move up before shining again.. Also, is it really nessary to fast fall ur SHL's cuz my friend told me its already fast enough. plus one last thing, can u guys give me some good combo tips ( any at all would help).. and again, thanks alot for taking the time out to help me.

 

[Doomblaze]

Like they said, there is no way to do it perfectly, if you stay Shine Dairing on a shield too long then you're gonna get grabbed or shined or up smashed or something. It's best to do it once and fadeaway Nair/dair so you wont get shieldgrabbed. Most people are scared of shieldgrabbing higher level players like shiz or mango, so they tend to be able to do whatever they want and practically break shields, but they could get grabbed too when they delay their Nair/Dairs

Yes, it is necessary to fast fall your SHL if you want to spam lasers. After you SHL you cant do anything else until you hit the ground, so it makes sense to fast fall. Its not "Necessary" but it speeds up your game, which is what most AT's are about

On most characters, shine-->dair only works until mid % (when they can start to tech), so when it stops working weak Dair to up tilt starts working. Weak Dair doesnt let them tech and up tilt doesnt send them as high as shine so its easier to combo.

 

[FoxLisk]

HateOnMe:

You keep asking if things are "necessary," which makes me wonder what level you're looking to achieve here. If you just want to beat scrubs at your local game store or whatever, it's probably not necessary. If you want to play to the best of your ability, get to work learning to fast fall every SHL and aerial (unless you have reason not to, blah blah blah), hit every L cancel, WD faster and farther, act on the first actionable frame every time you do everything, etc, etc. yes, people who take this game seriously and practice regularly can do all of this stuff in most situations. in particular, being able to mix up the timing of the dair after you shine is not difficult at all after a little practice, since the other inputs (jump and fast fall) remain almost unchanged.

 

[Incronaut]

**** thanks again both of you , although i dont think ill ever be that good at it.. can any one really do all 3 dair types on command?.. i mean if ur able to do that then thats just insane.. ill stick with my y-->D+a as quickly as possible and hopefully ital work for bout 2 or 3 times.. which brings me to my final questions. if the player isnt doing anything is it possible to continue the combo perfectly because i noticed that after i hit them with the shine and jump dair and continue this combo about 2 or 3 times i cant do it agin without having to move up before shining again.. Also, is it really nessary to fast fall ur SHL's cuz my friend told me its already fast enough. plus one last thing, can u guys give me some good combo tips ( any at all would help).. and again, thanks alot for taking the time out to help me.

yeah, doom blaze pretty much covered everything... but you should really learn to c-stick your aerials (especially when doing shine combos) youre not gonna be SHFFLing very well if you dont to be honest...

the whole laser thing is in the same link i gave you... in the second section about laser mogwai put up pictures showing teh difference... SHL is almost necessary all the time...

combos are very character dependent.. but like your typical combo is laser approach -> SHFFL dair -> shine -> dair -> up-tilt -> dair -> down smash

that definitely doesnt work a lot of time (lol) but its kinda how a basic combo will look like... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yt59cPrMrM both of these players are top-notch level and amazing.. but i think its a pretty good example of how a falco should be playing...

also, changing the timing of the pillaring isnt that hard once you get the tech skill down (which isnt too much imo)... but tech skill can increase rapidly with just some practice! so dont give up!

edit: going off of foxlisk's "necessary" statement, if youre looking to be a good good player, then youre gonna have to learn everything, cause most players can do a lot of "unnecessary" technical stuff too... just because...

so shoot for the stars son!