A New Threat

[Vaxxaruis]

while watching agian i saw that when samus trys to grab its very lagging at start up and i saw the marth SH fair it was thinking what you thought of that

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes, SH non-tipped fair and combo from there.

Or run in for a Dancing Blade combo or a charged u-smash.

All good responses.

Once Hylian post those vids I will look at them and then write up Samus's most common/reliable uses for Zair and Marth's ways of getting around them.

 

[Vaxxaruis]

it that samus 1 big weakness is that her grab is HELLA laggy so i was looking for a way to exploit

 

[Hylian]

Samus vs Marth teaser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syY2eiQf8xU

 

[Vaxxaruis]

WOW ok u seem way more skilled then your opponent theres so many times when u are just standing there and there openings and he doesnt do anything imo i think a good marth could over come this zair is good but not killing and marth has many options way more then samus IMO but imma keep looking over it to find the solution


EDIT: wow marth does not know his distance and he sucks at spacing jeese get shield grabed more please there openings alot of the time but zair in beastly if i had a better smaus to test on i could find some solutions but i dont know any good samus's sigh off to study more

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! XD

Edit: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Why the hell are you laughing?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hylian: Thanks. Also yes. At this point I'm gonna say you are better then Kal. Kal one that first big Brawl tourney, but I think he won because Marth plays relatively the same as he did in Melee. But I can see the skill gap in that match. He kept doing very silly things TBH.

I will analyze this when I get back from work.

But this vid actually convinced me that Zair is beatable and not as bad as I thought.

You just have to change the way you play and be very smart.

 

[Vaxxaruis]

same here i thought it was ganna be bad i am glad to here u say it just need a second opinion ha cya off to take care of some things

 

[Ken34]

Hylian: Thanks. Also yes. At this point I'm gonna say you are better then Kal. Kal one that first big Brawl tourney, but I think he won because Marth plays relatively the same as he did in Melee. But I can see the skill gap in that match. He kept doing very silly things TBH.

I will analyze this when I get back from work.

But this vid actually convinced me that Zair is beatable and not as bad as I thought.

You just have to change the way you play and be very smart.

Zair really ***** IMO, i tried it with samus a few days ago against my friend shoryuswordsman, it really just stops everything you planned on doing, lol. you really have to completely change the way you think to fight against it, u cant play normal, but it definetly is beatable, cause i lost all those matches, looool.

 

[DiasFlac]

Uhhh huh.

Look bro I don't care if you are laughing at me or the idea that a potential low tier could give a potential top tier trouble, but if you can't contribute then please don't post.

Why talk tier?

Maybe they both should pick Marth that way a tiers wouldn't matter.

One way I see getting around that is to air dodge then up B back on cliff.

 

[Hylian]

Here are some samus vs marth. Not as many as I thought I had, but I do have like a ****load of my samus vs other characters as well >_>.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uibe4LCW7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syY2eiQf8xU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKhdoOX-sWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPYdDu5B7_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJFjS1JfEdM

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, here is my analysis guys.

Zair is very good. It's actually amazing, but it's not unstoppable.

And I will just come right out and say that this does not give Samus advantage over Marth in this match-up. This just forces the Marth to use his head instead of just fair camping and f-smash whoring all day.

Now before I go into the ways that Marth can go about dealing with the Zair, first let me talk a bit about some discoveries I made from watching those vids.

Depending on when in her SH Samus uses her Zair, the Zair itself will have a different function and there is a different way of dealing with it.

As far as I can tell there are 3 types of SH Zair.

Rising Zair - This is when Samus does a Zair immediately after SHing. A quick move that would be used to get an opponent off of her. Would be hard to react to. Her opponent would have to predict this move to be able to counter it effectively. This is something a Samus player would do to make a quick retreat. It's more defensive then offensive since Samus really can't combo off of this. The Zair comes out early so Samus still has to land to be able to do something else.

Peak Zair - This is a Zair that is used when Samus is more or less at the peak of her SH. This is defensive, but also centered around space control. This deters SH approaches and gives Samus more control over the air. This is easier to react to since Samus uses it at the peak of her SH so you know when to expect it. This is a zoning tool that Samus will use to lock down your approach options and let her keep control of the pace of the fight.

Falling Zair - This is a Zair that Samus uses while falling or fast falling. This allows Samus to hit lower to the ground. It's also a combo opener since Samus lands shorty after the Zair is executed. So she can take full advantage of the Zair's stun time and follow up with another move. I'm not entirely sure of what she can follow up with but Charge shot seems like a given as well as an f-smash or a Fair.

So, as you can see each Zair serves a function and and gives Marth something to contend with. I will go over several methods to deal with each one.


Counter methods for Rising Zair - This Zair will hit lower to the ground so if you aare fighting a Samus that abuses this then you should use more SH approaches. The best thing to do is to use ground approaches cautiously and dashing/walking into your shield. So dash or walk then shield when Samus jumps. As soon as the beam hits your shield drop it and dash in very quickly. This is just to descrease the amount of distance between you and her. You don't need to mount an offense in this case.

You could just opt to shield and then dash to close the distance and then shield again. If Samus tried to attack you then you can shield and retaliate. If she goes for a grab then you can roll out of the way of reaction. If you are close enough you can SH and space it out so that your fair is near the tip. This will pressure her to react, usually with a retreating Zair, but if you are close enough then you can hit her as she jumps stuffing the Zair. If she tries to grab when you are close then you can roll to avoid it on reaction. Samus's grab is slow and it really shouldn't be hitting you. One thing Marth can do when he close is his Dolphin Slash (his Up B move). Dolphin Slash has one frame of start-up time and is invincible for the first 5 frames. It also packs a punch. It can kill an opponent at around 150%. Dolphin Slash beats all of Samus's close range options.

Generally against Rising Zair you have to be slightly more defensive in how you deal with it. Use shielding effectively and then close the distance when the beam hits. You might even want to try rolling towards Samus or SHing towards her if the distance is small enough.

Peak Zair - This method is meant to shut down SH approaches. This being the case you'll have to rely on a ground approach. Since the Zair comes out high Marth can duck it or even dash in depending on just how high it is. If you duck then Marth can use repeated d-tilts which moves him forward. This helps him cover distance if the Zair is too low to simply dash under. Once the Zair is fully extended dash forward to close distance. Zair only hits on the way out from what I have observed and only the spark at the end has a hitbox. So once that has been extended, a player can move through the beam. You can also shield the Zair and go from there, with the methods that I talked about earliar. But if you dash under the Zair then go for a SH Fair or a dash cancelled U-smashed. What you do will be dependent on the distance between you and Samus.

Falling Zair - This is something Samus will use to start combos. One good thing about this is that Samus will most likely move forward to hit with this, which decreases the distance between you and her. She will move forward so she has more options to combo with after landing the Zair. Shielding is good vs this. Shield then wait a moment. If she goes for a grab then stuff her attempt or roll towards her. An attack should be shielded then you can retaliate. Also if it's obvious that Samus will do a Falling Zair to approach then SH Fair if she is close enough. But the Samus player would have to be very predictable with that.


Shielding will be the most important tool in dealing with the Zair. As will perfect shielding since it has no shieldstun and doesn't decrease your shield. And shield dropping seems to take 1-2 frame(s). So shield to shield drop and then just your next action wisely and carefully.

Also full jumping and doing an IDJ or Instant Double Jump where you SH then immediately double jump, seem to be viable approaches. You just have to control your DI so you don't land on top of Samus. Space it so that she is at the very tip of your attack range. If she tries to attack, then don't worrry too much since you have options. You can Counter, Dair, or Fair since the Fair hits a little below Marth, but that takes some spacing on your part. You could also just airdodge so you land on the ground and have an advantage in positioning.

Also let me just say that Samus' Uair, Fair and her Up B are really nothing to worry about. Multi hitting moves are easily DIed out of in Brawl.

You just have to keep tapping the control stick in a direction very quickly. It is repeated Smash DI and let's you DI out of multi hitting moves wtih ease.

So if you get caught in anyone of those moves against Samus just mash left or right on the control stick then when you get out just Fair her or up B her for a kill if her percent is high enough.

For the record Tap DI also works on the rapid stab last Down B hit of Marth's Dancing Blade.

Also some more general tips. Don't just ***** f-samsh when oyu are next to Samus. Marth has ALOT of kills moves. All his smashes kill well, the Dolphin Slash can kill, and the last Up B hit of Dancing Blade can kill around 170. Nair, Fair and Bair all kill around 150 ish if you hit with the tip. Tipper F-smash can kill around 80%!!! U-smash can kill around 100% Also anote about U-smash. Use this move alot when your opponent is right next to you, instead of F-smash.

In Melee Marth wasn't that hot at extremely close range. He didn't have super fast moves to help him in very close quarters combat. Not so in Brawl. His Dancing Blade faster and better, his U-smash can hit with full force even if his opponent is just standing next to him, and his Dolphin Slash has been buffed soooooooooooooooooo much.

Remember in Marth can kill sooner then Samus can. Use this to your advantage. Get in your hits and when you get close stick to her. Don't let her reset her spacing. And when she hits around 90% she is in the danger zone and you need to be going for the kill. Don't ignore your kill options by whoring F-sasmh all day. Marth kills with alot of his moves now, so don't waste his potential.

All right.

That about wraps it up.

So tell me, what do you guys think.

Any ideas about counter strats or anything you want me to talk about?

 

[Vaxxaruis]

O man very good i was thinking the same thing gj El

 

[Hylian]

LMAO. Don't worry about Samus's fair, uair, and up B?

LOL.



Have you tested any of this or do you just assume that you can tap-DI out?

Because Tobias and I tested Tap-Di on like everything, and it is impossible to DI out of samus's uair fair and upB with it. You can move in a circle around the hitbox with tap-DI, but it is impossible to actually leave the hitbox.


Also, there are pleanty of other multi-hit moves that you cannot tap-DI out of. It is really not that effective.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh. Well, I watched alot of vids and whenever someone uses a multi hitting move sometimes it catches them and other times they get out.

So I dunno.

In general I was saying multihitting moves aren't much to worry about from what I have read. That goes for Marth's rapid stabs too.

One thing I want to try is up bing out of multihitting moves with Marth.

M2K says this works on some multihitting moves since it's one frame start up.

Also...everytime you post....SWF goes down for like a minute.

I just noticed that.

Hylian is clearly a hacker.

Anyway, even if you can't DI out of it..then w/e. I mean that wasn't the point of my post really. Just a side note.

Although I have seen opponents get out of Uair and Fair before.

Not so much Up B.

*Shrugs

 

[Irow]

I've never been able to DI out of the Up B of Samus. I'll have to test the Up-B though on Samus.

EL, don't underestimate Samus' attacks. I play her, and her moves pack a punch - If a little lacking on killing moves.

You're shield strategy is viable. Just play a little more wary. Don't be afraid of the missiles. Don't rush in without a plan, and without planning to shield amazingly fast. Learn to perfect shield. Make sure you can perfect shield just about anything. Shield *****. Spaced double jumps will play an amazing role in Fighting Samus, especially on FD.

Another thing, Marth's down smash hits well when your in between f-smash and up-smash range.
I'm glad you notice the use of the up-smash, I find it extremely effective.

If you forward b combo, the final hit should be up. You want Samus above you as much as possible, especially since Marth's up-air is quite powerful (It can hit for 20% at tip if I remember correctly). Plus Samus options when she's on top of somebody are limited. She can't zair you, and her dair can't hit your up-air.

When your up a stock, camp the ledge. Force Samus to be close. The homing missiles will be an annoyance, but you need to force her to be closer, even by a little. If the Samus is dumb enough, edge hop fair, nair, or up b - depending on the percent they're at.

When your above Samus, never be directly above her. Ever. I'm serious, her up b is really effective. Not so much her up-air. You can counter hit the up-air much easier than an up-b. Be slightly in front of her, as to stop her up approaches.

This match plays similar to Pit. It's quite difficult at a far range, but once you get in close - Marth has an amazing upperhand. That statement can be said for just about any match up.

For all you new players, your up moves ****. All of them. At close range, your up smash is amazing. So is dancing blade. Shieldbreaker hella destroys shields, and it's amazingly powerful. It's also hard not to tip because it's a thrust.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, so if Marth is directly above Samus then he should probably just airdodge through her so he can land.

Also I forgot to mention that when you shield a Zair you may want to try rolling towards Samus. This seems like it would be most effective against Rising Zair, but not effective against Falling Zair.

It's just a quick way to cover some distance so you can get in Samus's face.

Irow: Samus's attacks are decent.

But overall Marth is stronger I think and kills sooner. That's what he has to abuse in this match-up to win.

 

[Warlock*G]

Woops double post.

 

[Warlock*G]

Uhhh huh.

Look bro I don't care if you are laughing at me or the idea that a potential low tier could give a potential top tier trouble, but if you can't contribute then please don't post.

Am I late?

I am laughing because:

1) the game might be more balanced than I thought;

2) the people trying to predict tiers right now are all prophets of a different kind than the ones we've seen before the game was out.

Edit: in short, I am not laughing at anybody, I'm just laughing a happy, merry laugh.

Edit2: finally got around to reading most of those posts... glad this challenge got you all working! After all, without any challenges, videogames would be dull.

Oh, here's my contribution to Marth's defense game: http://youtube.com/watch?v=L_tKAg5KIuQ

 

[Spyckie]

hahaha even that won't save marth...

My thoughts of this are - this is exactly what low tier mainers were doing to think of ways to beat marth's ridiculous grab range, fair spam, and fsmash in melee. And yes, it did meet with some success, but it didn't change the tiers or the outcome of most vs Marth matches.

This does tend to make you laugh a very happy, merry laugh. Its like Sakurai gave the low tiers a very nice present in brawl.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Here is the thing with your theory.

Samus isn't as good as Marth.

Marth is the better character.

It's the Zair that evens the playing field.

Marth isn't low tier material at all.

He is easily top tier material.

If you look at some vids of Tobias' Marth vs Hylians Samus he does alot of what I'm talking ahout.

Hell the things I listed aren't pulled out of my ***. They are things that Tobias and Kal did themselves. The rest is based on observation and my understanding of the game engine.

Zair is nice. It's so nice that after it was discovered Samus mains who were gonna quit her cuz they felt as though she sucked, suddenly came back to her and became disillusioned to her weaknesses and saying things like she will be high tier and talk about how good her other moves are, the same moves that they were saying were crap and not good before Zair was discovered.

Samus is still the same character.

Zair gives her a better zoning game and opens the door for her to combo better.

But it didn't make a poor character good. It just made that character decent.

Maybe I am wrong about Samus. Maybe she will be high tier cuz of this.

But Marth is still a constant.

He is a ****ing monster.

If you remember only one thing about Marth, remember that.

 

[Spyckie]

Screw whatever tier samus is - all this says to me is that marth isn't godly unstoppable because he has a counter. zair isn't the broken end-all; samus still has a hard time against very fast characters and small characters, where they can get into her range much more easily. That samus has a tool that boots marth off of high tier is enough.

Height is a disadvantage in this game... how ironically unlike RL.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL@ thinking this means Marth isn't high tier.

You are right he isn't high tier.

He's pretty much a shoe in for top tier.

If you watch those vids that Hylian posted Kal lost only when he tried to SH approach mindlessly. When he used his head and was cautious he did fine.

This is just gonna be one of those match-ups where you have to play completely different then usual.

Like Marth vs Falco in Melee.

A match-up that alot of people say Marth has advantage depsite Falco's lasers and remember that Falco is actually a good character in melee, unlike Samus in Brawl.

Hmmm. Food for thought

Honestly I don't like doing this. I don't like going on tirades about such and such character being better, but when fanboys come into a thread and spew garbage like you did, ugh, I just can't hold back.

And even if Samus did counter Marth he would still be top tier.

It just means he has one bad match-up while Samus would have one good match-up.

You clearly don't undertand tiers.

Please refrain from posting in my thread in the future. You make other Samus players and Samus fans look bad.

 

[Warlock*G]

My thoughts of this are - this is exactly what low tier mainers were doing to think of ways to beat marth's ridiculous grab range, fair spam, and fsmash in melee. And yes, it did meet with some success, but it didn't change the tiers or the outcome of most vs Marth matches.

Screw whatever tier samus is [...] That samus has a tool that boots marth off of high tier is enough.

Wait wait wait... First you say that strategies that resembled the zair "didn't change the tiers" in Melee, and then you go and say that "samus has a tool that boots marth off of high tier"?

Looks like a contradiction to me.

And like EL said, zair Samus is only one tougher matchup. If I'd have to make a comparison to Melee, I'd say that I now remember Gimpyfish once saying that Bowser was good against Fox.

Your first assumption was correct Spyckie: counters don't change tiers, if that's what you were trying to say. In fact, counters won't change tiers unless people find about 5 counters to Marth. And then maybe there would be counters to those counters...

...

Hell the things I listed aren't pulled out of my ***. They are things that Tobias and Kal did themselves. The rest is based on observation and my understanding of the game engine.

And that's the difference between a prophet and a smasher folks: you got people saying "I guess, based on what I observed, that X is top tier"; then you got people saying "LOL X is gonna crush everybody, he's definitely top of the top, I knew it!".

Just my 2 cents.

Let's not get carried away.

In fact, everybody here needs a hug. And maybe a warm cup of coffee.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That last bit you said.

Were you complimenting me or saying I'm a prophet and shouldn't be taking seriously?

Because I most definitely don't see myself as a prophet.

 

[Warlock*G]

That last bit you said.

Were you complimenting me or saying I'm a prophet and shouldn't be taking seriously?

Because I most definitely don't see myself as a prophet.

I was saying you're not a prophet (or else I would have to consider myself a prophet since I tried to estimate Wario's tier based on observations I made ); you said you didn't pull assumptions out of your ***, which is true.

For instance, I remember you saying, in a post adressed to M2K, that based on what you saw, you thought Marth was "one of the best", while others left and right were assuming he was necessarily "THE best".

A prophet is categorical, while a rationnal observer is not.

 

[Irow]

Alright, so anyway...

I'll have the beginners guide for Marth done within two weeks of Brawl's release. A full, indepth, real guide will be made and updated according to each metagame change. I'll also make a guide for each match up, it'll be very in-depth. I'd like for contributions. So please, don't be ashamed.

Well, I don't think Samus will be a top tier character. It is a definite possibility to be high tier however. Samus is quite effective at racking up damage and pressure. As such, she'll be a major doubles player - I'm sure of that. Her weight also makes her a bit harder to kill than Marth. However, without Crouch Canceling... Her down moves are not nearly as effective as they were. And she doesn't have the plethora of kill moves that Marth possesses. Marth's problem in Melee, was that at higher percents it was very hard to land a killer move, it was near impossible to combo into them. However in Brawl, Marth can kill effectively from mid, high, and very high percents. This is one of the major boons people have overlooked when playing Marth. Marth can put on damage fairly quickly, even with just single strikes and one-two combos. All his Smashes are effective killers, the tip will ensure death. His Up B is hella broken. And all his tipped aerials can kill.

 

[Gray]

Why exactly is this specifically a Marth killer? how is Marth weaker to this strategy more than any other character? And is this any more annoying than say, SHL?

 

[Irow]

People just like to find ways to counter-act what could quite possibly the best character in the game.

SHL wouldn't be as annoying, I'm sure. Sure it'll play a major part of Falco camping, but we could seriously just camp the edge until we force them close. Edgehopping is hella broken in this game, so it's not as punishable as it was in Melee. Samus has homing missiles, so that's not as effective, although you should still do it if you're a stock ahead. The Zair also has more stun if I remember correctly.

 

[Warlock*G]

People just like to find ways to counter-act what could quite possibly the best character in the game.

Exactly. And why is that? Because people in general love when games are balanced.

Riddle me this, riddle me that: why do people like Starcraft?

(Yes, I understand SC isn't the same kind of game, yada yada yada)

...

But on topic, a question's been bugging me: approximately what distance does Marth cover when he uses his charged neutral B in the air?

I thought it could be used as an approach, but then I thought it was so simple somebody would have thought of it right now...

Unless Marth moving in the air with his neutral B was just a rumor?

 

[Irae]

Exactly. And why is that? Because people in general love when games are balanced.

Riddle me this, riddle me that: why do people like Starcraft?

(Yes, I understand SC isn't the same kind of game, yada yada yada)

...

But on topic, a question's been bugging me: approximately what distance does Marth cover when he uses his charged neutral B in the air?

I thought it could be used as an approach, but then I thought it was so simple somebody would have thought of it right now...

Unless Marth moving in the air with his neutral B was just a rumor?

He does move, just not much at all...

Not enough to approach effectively.

Zair looks like nothing more than a reduced distance falco laser. Not a big deal at all.

 

[Gum]

How about this:

So much talk of how Marth is BETTER than Samus, but one can't help but wonder if that is just a predisposition based on how things were in Melee, coupled with the fact that not everyone KNOWS Brawl yet.

From what Iv'e seen and experienced, Marth in Brawl is definately not a better character. It seems like he is because not only does he play the same, but other people are playing AGAINST him as if they are playing Melee, which is a game he was great in.

In fact, I would say they are even now. I think this will especially be the case when people figure out the game more. It has been witnessed. Zair locks down Marth like nobody's business. The only time it doesnt is mostly when the user ****s up. Thats pretty much it. Its almost a shine on a very long stick.

That, plus the fact that every single one of her moves cancels into it makes her a wrecking ball. The point is that she just needs to be refined by people. Everyone is ASSUMING Marth will be better, because 1) He plays roughly the same as he did in Melee, and 2)Because in Melee, he was ****. This is a different game. Think about it like this: Marth stayed the same overall. Samus got better overall. Samus' enhancements + player refinement = a very viable Marth counter, not to mention a good character overall.

One last thing. In general, one of Marth's apparent advantages are his plethora of kill moves. Anyone wonder why they might have toned down Samus' power from Melee? I think its safe to say that tether edge hogging is going to be HUGE in competetive Brawl and people just havnt caught on to it yet. You guys realize that Samus can take ALL of Marth's stock at about 90% on up? You see, we all know that tethers auto snap the edge, and we know that they edge hog. After a solid hit from Samus at that damage, Marth can't afford to go low enough to hit Samus while she is tether edge guarding. This means he dies either way. Samus doesn't need to rack up crazy amounts of damage in order to kill. A simple charge shot out of shield or out of zair or anything like that while he is at high enough damage almost garauntees you a kill. Simply do a running turn-around tether to the edge and sit there. I think this pretty much nulifies her lack of KO moves. Think people. Why increase the survivability in the game? Why make it so that tethers can gimp people? Why make it so that one can survive a charge shot at 160%? They have introduced other effective ways to kill in Brawl that werent in Melee, and this is something that both Samus players AND Marth players need to keep in mind.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok.

People, sorry to bump an older thread.

But disregard this last post Gum made.

It's full of pure ignorance.

 

[Warlock*G]

Ok.

People, sorry to bump an older thread.

But disregard this last post Gum made.

It's full of pure ignorance.

I think your new sig reflects your state of mind about Brawl. You just can't let go, can you?

But don't worry about Gum's post, seeing as it's pretty much a wall of text and nobody will read it anyway.