A Move That Does Literally Nothing

[Foo]

First off, no, this isn't a hyperbolic thread about a move that exists in the game currently, this is a suggestion.

What if the PMDT were to add a move (a special, or b-move, more specifcally) that did, quite literally, nothing. Almost no startup or endlag, no hitbox, no projection, no nothing. All it did was have a really tiny animation, but it was a special. It's really crazy to think about, but a special in PM that did LITERALLY NOTHING would be one of the coolest moves in the entire game.

Now, some of you are completely with me at this point and others are totally lost. Here's a hint: B-reverse tech. With all specials, you can do the following:

• Turn-b: Shifts direction but not momentum. Preformed by tilting or tapping the analog stick backwards and then doing the input for the special. (or for side b, just hit back and b.)

• B-reverse: Shifts both momentum and direction. Preformed by imputing the special normally, and then, very quickly, tapping the analog backwards.

• Wave Bouncing: This tech is a combination of both of the above, and it shifts momentum, but not direction. This is preformed by first turn-bing a special, and then immediately tapping forward. For instance, to input a wavebounced side-special, you would hit back and b, then immediately tap forwards. For a wavebounced neutral special, you would tilt the stick back slightly, then hit b and tap forward.

THIS would be the sole purpose of this move that doesn't do anything. B-reverse tech is incredibly fun, very useful, super dynamic, and really tricky. However, it is always slightly limited by being tied to a relatively heavy commitment. The closest move to this in the game as of right now would probably be Ganondorf's float, but it has a startup of 14 unactionable frames. Imagine that, but with only, say, 4-5 frames of startup and no float. You could jump towards someone and then basically RAR in the air, to turn around and back air someone. Or, you could even b-reverse to do a retreating bair. It would be a lot like wavedashing, but could be done while airborne.

Another thing is that it would probably be best suited for a character that has high max air speed, but low aerial mobility. It would be useless on a character like bowser, redundant on a character like Falcon.

So, what do you guys think of this idea? What character's would it be best for (or should it be on a new character)? What would be the best way to keep it balanced? Is it a really stupid idea and should I delete my account? Let me know!

 

[CORY]

cue @Umbreon re: shiek downb.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

isn't this basically what Ivy/Lucas' charges are?

 

[CORY]

actually reading over it, shiek's needle charge (actually, lucario and m2 neutral b charge cancels, too...) accomplishes a lot of that, too? but i guess you're wanting an even quicker "animation" with no baggage attached?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

so this is essentially a b-reverse button?

 

[O ciN]

It's an interesting concept, and now that you've expanded on its potential uses it seems like a completely unique, yet very strange move. The only place I could see it being used with the current cast is if they actually did split Zelda and Shiek and gave it to Zelda, since loads of people in the tier list speculation thread are complaining about recent nerfs to Zelda anyway.

Other than that, if PM was truly to add in new characters such as Lyn, Knuckles and Isaac, I could definitely see this idea being used on some of these guys.

Anyway, it's a really cool idea that'd end up bringing in some more fresh content into the meta without making a character overwhelmingly op since it'd remove a special.

To sum it up, cool idea

Edit: some characters seem to have moves that already accomplish this to some extent, so maybe we'd be looking for a move with little to no start and end lag?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

but honestly, in terms of intuitiveness of design, wouldn't it make more sense to just have the button press itself cause a b-reverse rather than having a totally unintuitive move that makes no sense outside of the context of semi-obscure tech

plus having it automatically b-reverse means you could b-reverse the b-reverse

but yeah giving a momentum shifting down b to zelda would make her a lot more interesting movement wise

 

[Foo]

isn't this basically what Ivy/Lucas' charges are?

Both of these characters have LOTS of lag on those moves, even for the minimum time. Idk about the frames, but it seems to take a while.

actually reading over it, shiek's needle charge (actually, lucario and m2 neutral b charge cancels, too...) accomplishes a lot of that, too? but i guess you're wanting an even quicker "animation" with no baggage attached?

Correct, as I said in the OP, my preliminary thought would be a move that as around 4-5 frames of startup and no endlag or (2-3 frames startup and 2 frames of end lag, same thing).

From my understand, shiek's would take 9 frames (8 to pull a needle, 1 to cancel). Also, sheik has a really low max air speed, so it's pretty bad on her anyway. Mewtwo would have 11 (and he has hover anyway), and idk what lucario would have since his frame data thread is incomplete, but I assume it's similar to mewtwo. These guys are all technically closer than Ganon, but I've never ever seen any character but ganon use their moves for this purpose, so I figured there was something I didn't know keeping them back, idk.

but honestly, in terms of intuitiveness of design, wouldn't it make more sense to just have the button press itself cause a b-reverse rather than having a totally unintuitive move that makes no sense outside of the context of semi-obscure tech

plus having it automatically b-reverse means you could b-reverse the b-reverse

but yeah giving a momentum shifting down b to zelda would make her a lot more interesting movement wise

I agree it's unintuitive because a player who doesn't know what b-reverse tech is (since it's a move that doesn't appear to have a function), but it would be as simple as possible without losing depth if it did nothing. If it automatically b-reversed, here would be it's functions.

Press normally to b-reverse, do a turn-b to wavebounce and to turn b.... you can't.

With my way, you could use it for all 3 b-reverse techs.

 

[CORY]

i know lucario can use wavebounce (or just b-reverse?) to do super wall jump recoveries (wall jump-reverse asc to push you back to the wall, repeat ad naseum).

that might've been removed in 3.5, but i don't know for sure, tbh.

 

[Bleck]

make every button except one move your character in different ways and the last button the falcon punch

 

[G13_Flux]

the only thing i can think of is what input would cause this? wouldnt it require removing something from the characters?

 

[Foo]

the only thing i can think of is what input would cause this? wouldnt it require removing something from the characters?

Yeah, that's the only thing about it. They could pull a ganon though and basically add the removed move back as a taunt. However, I feel there are a decent number of characters that could stand to lose a special. For instance, I really wouldn't mind seeing current zss blaster go if she got something cool in return. For instance, zelda losing down-b for this would be interesting.

However, come to think of it, there are other ways. Sticking with zelda, we could stick a cancel within the first four frames of zelda's neutral b where canceling it would make her able to act on frame 5. Similar things could be done for many specials, such as ganon's float. Maybe ganon could cancel the float with a button in the first frames to be able to act after frame 5, but wouldn't get nearly as much float out of it, making you choose between floating a bit and acting quickly.

There's lots of possibilities for this to be implemented and I won't pretend I've even thought of half of the ways.

 

[G13_Flux]

aw i like ZSSs blaster!

i could see the footstool input acting as something like that. maybe you have the slight animation for it that acts as the window for which someone can be footstooled, but it also acts a special attack that can be b-reversed, etc. I wonder how much this would change the metagames of the cast, and if it would be an overpowered addition for any of the characters. I dont think that every character needs it, but i can see some characters that could make use out of the mobility/turn around attributes it could give them.

 

[Eisen]

This sounds like shine/magnet but without having to jump cancel the move. I might be on board for the idea if it isn't just another shine replica, because we have 5 as is, and more that are similar-ish. I like the idea of it having little animation time and just using it as a "jump extension" tool. Almost like dampening a fall?

 

[QuickLava]

It's a very interesting concept, but I think it's viability would depend on the character it's put on far more than the move itself. Someone like Marth would get lots of use out of this move, whereas someone like Samus wouldn't so much. The characters that are gonna really want stuff like this are (at least in my opinion) ones with high aerial mobility and spacing heavy neutral games.

 

[Foo]

aw i like ZSSs blaster!

i could see the footstool input acting as something like that. maybe you have the slight animation for it that acts as the window for which someone can be footstooled, but it also acts a special attack that can be b-reversed, etc. I wonder how much this would change the metagames of the cast, and if it would be an overpowered addition for any of the characters. I dont think that every character needs it, but i can see some characters that could make use out of the mobility/turn around attributes it could give them.

I definitely wasn't talking about it being on every character, I was more talking about an idea for a move unique to one character. The question with multiple characters is who, out of everyone, would be best for it.

This sounds like shine/magnet but without having to jump cancel the move. I might be on board for the idea if it isn't just another shine replica, because we have 5 as is, and more that are similar-ish. I like the idea of it having little animation time and just using it as a "jump extension" tool. Almost like dampening a fall?

It would not be a shine replica at all. As I said, it would have no hitbox or anything. It would function like any other special, if the special only active 1 frame (again, no hitbox) and had 4 frames of endlag and had no automatic change in movement, no protection, no reflect, etc. etc.

It's a very interesting concept, but I think it's viability would depend on the character it's put on far more than the move itself. Someone like Marth would get lots of use out of this move, whereas someone like Samus wouldn't so much. The characters that are gonna really want stuff like this are (at least in my opinion) ones with high aerial mobility and spacing heavy neutral games.

Agree completely. You could put a version with one frame duration on bowser and it would be useless or put a version with 7 frames active on fox and have it be completely busted. Of all the characters to use it, the ones that come to mind that would be best suited for it are:

ZSS
Zelda
Ganondorf
Squirtle
Toonlink
Marth
Roy
Ike
Ivysaur
Game and watch

There may be more it could work on, or maybe some of these would be broken with it or never use it. Idk, I'm hoping everyone in this thread can put more theory into it than me.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ganon's float already effectively does this. It can be canceled so quickly, and even gives you stall so that you don't lose much air time to get the reversal effect. Only limitation is really that you can't interrupt with specials.

 

[himemiya]

Its called the dpad!

 

[MegaMissingno]

I think it'd be interesting to see something along the lines of Ryu's fake fireball in Alpha and HD Remix. Startup that looks like another move to bait a reaction but then stops.

As for who to put it on, Game & Watch is the first candidate that comes to mind. Judge taunt that very briefly flashes a 0 before returning to neutral (or maybe the full animation but with IASA, so you can leave it out to taunt with).

I really don't like the idea of an actual null special move that isn't on a taunt button though. Even if it has some esoteric uses for B reverses or whatnot it would just be very unintuitive and confusing. Try explaining to Joe Casual why we took away one of their moves and replaced it with one that literally does nothing.

 

[QuickLava]

Ganon's float already effectively does this. It can be canceled so quickly, and even gives you stall so that you don't lose much air time to get the reversal effect. Only limitation is really that you can't interrupt with specials.

I think the reason Ganon's float isn't as useful offensively as this would be is that it stops most of your downward momentum upon activation. That means no wavebounced SHFFL aerials or anything like that. But on the other hand, this move would be pretty garbage for recovery, whereas Ganon's float isn't.

 

[Agi]

I mentioned as much over Skype, but I still think that the ultimate purpose of this type move (reversing aerial momentum) would be best applied to a Side Special that actually DID do that, instead of doing nothing. Maybe with a particle effect of some sort depending on the character, or a special animation interruptible by any input. The replaced Side Special could be remapped to Neutral Special if it was a more important move for the character in question. Could really see this applied to Zamus, replacing either of the moves.

 

[Foo]

Ganon's float already effectively does this. It can be canceled so quickly, and even gives you stall so that you don't lose much air time to get the reversal effect. Only limitation is really that you can't interrupt with specials.

14 frames is actually quite a significant amount of time. As I said, it's probably the closest overall to this tech, but it's not quite what I had in mind. It also commits your movement a bit because of the hover. The difference between frame 5 action and frame 14 action is pretty huge imo.

Its called the dpad!

ummm.... huh?

I think it'd be interesting to see something along the lines of Ryu's fake fireball in Alpha and HD Remix. Startup that looks like another move to bait a reaction but then stops.

As for who to put it on, Game & Watch is the first candidate that comes to mind. Judge taunt that very briefly flashes a 0 before returning to neutral (or maybe the full animation but with IASA, so you can leave it out to taunt with).

I really don't like the idea of an actual null special move that isn't on a taunt button though. Even if it has some esoteric uses for B reverses or whatnot it would just be very unintuitive and confusing. Try explaining to Joe Casual why we took away one of their moves and replaced it with one that literally does nothing.

Yeah, game and watch would be a good candidate. Only problem I can see is pushing his "jank" over the top, since he is already really odd.

As for the second part, yeah, that's kind of the inherent problem with this move. It could also be done by adding a cancel to an existing move like judge. You raise the hammer above your head, but then hit a button to cancel and he puts it away on frame 5, leaving a zero over his head for a moment. That could be cool, wouldn't have the issue of casuals not understanding what it does, and it could have potential outside of just b-reverse tech (feigning hammer).

I mentioned as much over Skype, but I still think that the ultimate purpose of this type move (reversing aerial momentum) would be best applied to a Side Special that actually DID do that, instead of doing nothing. Maybe with a particle effect of some sort depending on the character, or a special animation interruptible by any input.

Well, you can't have a move that actually DOES that without limiting options. Remember, you'd be able to do any of the 3 b-reverse techs out of it. If you made it auto-b reverse, it would work the same, but to wavebounce, you'd turn b, to b-reverse, you'd regular b, to turn-b, you'd wavebounce, and to do nothing, you'd b-reverse (I think all of those are correct. I'm not sure whether you'd be able to effectively do a turn b or not. It would depend on how it's coded).

 

[MegaMissingno]

Yeah, game and watch would be a good candidate. Only problem I can see is pushing his "jank" over the top, since he is already really odd.

That's a problem?

Also just some more brainstorming, maybe it could also have the side-effect of advancing the queue, so if you just got a 9 and two dots you could 0 twice to push that out and try for one dot.

 

[Akkien]

DK's aerial downb? - it does nothing already.

 

[Foo]

DK's aerial downb? - it does nothing already.

Huh, totally forgot about that one. You can't b-reverse with it currently, though, right? It seems like it'd be a perfect canidate. Only problem is that doing b-reverse tech is a little weird with a down-b. I could see DK doing stuff like dash attack off stage-turn b-rising bair for edgeguards. That would be really cool.

 

[zpxociv]

I always thought DK's aerial down-B should be made into a sonic downward clap that stuns anyone nearby but with less range than the ground pound but very useful disjointed hit for below DK. Anyways, screw the idea of throwing away specials just for better control, that's something that well, better input control by itself should be fixed to allow.

 

[Nausicaa]

DK's aerial downb? - it does nothing already.

That's what I thought Foo was gonna start talking about in the OP.

The G&W Judgement fake sounds fun too.

 

[Player -0]

I thought about this before for a dumb Pichu thingy. Aka Pichu is sonic everywhere because reasons and can spin because reasons.

Would be funny.

 

[Phaiyte]

community running out of ideas confirmed

 

[Star ☆]

community running out of ideas confirmed

We're all going insane waiting for 3.6

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

Diddy Kong peanut is good for this already unlike a lot of them. He has good enough horizontal aerial speed to make use of it, and his fair and Nair have appropriate reward for hitting right before he lands from it.

 

[Rhubarbo]

How about putting back spin on Mario and Pikachu's neutral b's? Sorry if irrelevant, I just think it's a good idea and there's no other place to mention it.

 

[zman804]

Olimar's whistle does this, for what it's worth.