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A Match Up Observation

mdmfromdaridge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
387
Location
The Woodlands, Texas
Just recently I decided to go ahead and research a couple choice characters for their potential to cover Diddy Kong's weaker match up's. These characters include Marth, Olimar, and Falco. Upon beginning my research, I found something that I saw as quite curious. Now before I begin, I want you to know that all this information is taken from each characters individual Match Up thread, and if, for example, Lucario is not done in Diddy's MU thread, I went to Lucarios MU thread to find out the ratio.

In essence, I am simply curious as to why the following is true. Diddy Kong, according to the MU's I've read, has 18 advantage match ups, 7 neutral match ups, and 9 bad match ups (2 or 3 characters I found no match up for and did not have enough experience to assign a ratio of my own) when considering the entire cast. Of the top tier characters (S, A, and B tiers,) 5 of them are disadvantages for diddy, 2 are neutral, and only 3 are advantage match ups. This information is a small bit shocking because Diddy is now the 3rd ranked character in the game. I would think that there were more match up's in his favor then there are, especially considering the whole cast.

The thing that startled me the most though, is not the modest difference between advantage and disadvantage match up's that Diddy has, but when compared to Marth, Diddy's ratio of good/bad is almost meager.

Marth's statistics on advantages are as follows. When considering the entire cast he has (according to the Marth MU thread,) 29 advantage match ups, 4 neutral match ups, and only 3 disadvantage match ups. Thats 11 more good match up's then diddy, and 1/3 as many bad match up's as diddy.

So how does it come to be, that a character like Marth, who apparently is able to stand toe-to-toe with 3/4ths of the cast, is still only number 6 on the tier list, but diddy, who seems to only have an above average match up ratio, has climbed up to the 3rd spot in the tiers?

Don't get me wrong, I love diddy kong, he's by far my best and most fluid character, but I was just a little curious as to how something works out in such a way. If you guys have any input to clarify this, it would be appreciated. I really just wanted to know a little more about the game mechanics in general and why certain characters have fallen into their spots as they have.

SIDE NOTE: After doing research with these match ups, i've compiled a list of match up ratios across several characters that I will be using to identify a good secondary for diddy that will cover his bases. That being said, I think what I may do is create a thread in which I detail why certain characters may compliment diddy's abilities and cover different match up's that some people may find difficult. If that sounds like a good idea, would you please say so in your reply so I know whether or not it is worth creating. Thanks a lot.
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
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in reality the only characters that should EVER giv diddy trouble are

jiggz off stage lol/luigi/peach/snake/ a well educated mk

marth and etc can be worked with to personal styles but the above are choice characters that could pose a threat to diddy, but again the top can be worked with as well whether it be through hardcore camping, pressure ur opponent with walls and bait certain approaches etc etc
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
well if thats the only thing that matters O.o
Well when (mostly) all your counters are eliminated by MK and you have to play the MK that beat them, then yes, your match up against MK is the only thing that matters.
 

dj asakura

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
840
Location
Peoria, IL
Yea...I was going to say, it seem like the tier list is based more on a characters matchup with MK than the rest of the cast since you're probably going run into mostly MK's in any given tournament.
 

mdmfromdaridge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
387
Location
The Woodlands, Texas
Another very apt observation, Dj. Obviously they must create tiers based on the best characters, but yes, I think MK has more to do with it then he should...
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
Another very apt observation, Dj. Obviously they must create tiers based on the best characters, but yes, I think MK has more to do with it then he should...
Hence the term over centralization and the disagreement over how much something must over centralize before warranting a ban and why half the community thinks he should be banned and the other half don't.
 

FelixTrix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
410
Location
WA
it's both the severity of matchups that marth has and it all comes down to who does well vs. mk in tournament. Diddy, snake, and falco are the top characters that do well vs. mk so they are the highest. the metagame pretty much centralizes around him but eh, he's beatable so we got to live with it.
 

Ingulit

Ing-u-lit
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
1,828
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Huntsville/Tuscaloosa, AL
it's both the severity of matchups that marth has and it all comes down to who does well vs. mk in tournament. Diddy, snake, and falco are the top characters that do well vs. mk so they are the highest. the metagame pretty much centralizes around him but eh, he's beatable so we got to live with it.
More like we (Diddy mains) GET to live with it; it's why we're higher than Marth, and that's about it.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd picture us dropping a lot if MK ended up banned (Marth and Snake = new top tier).

And as for the secondaries thread, I actually tried that not too long ago... It didn't really get anywhere because we basically all agreed that Diddy is good enough by himself that he doesn't need a secondary. The only reason I secondary Wolf is because I played him first when Brawl came out (and his match-ups with Marth and Olimar are sooooo much better than ours).
 

mdmfromdaridge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
387
Location
The Woodlands, Texas
I see what you're saying about not needing a secondary, but honestly, there are some OBNOXIOUS match up's that diddy has to deal with. I'm not pro diddy, but I'm certainly able to compete at tournament level, and I've found that some of the most annoying match ups are also the easiest covered match up's by marth. Almost everything that would be 50/50 or 45/55 for diddy are normally 60/40 or 55/45 AT LEAST for marth. It just seems logical, why not cover the bases?
 

nvm

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
81
Location
Canada
in reality the only characters that should EVER giv diddy trouble are

jiggz off stage lol/luigi/peach/snake/ a well educated mk

marth and etc can be worked with to personal styles but the above are choice characters that could pose a threat to diddy, but again the top can be worked with as well whether it be through hardcore camping, pressure ur opponent with walls and bait certain approaches etc etc
Peach? hmm..
i just played a good Peach last tourny (from what I heard) and it wasn't so hard imo. First game was close tho.. Keep a naner in front of you and one in your hand, peanut gun camp her and when she gets close throw the naner fair.. just need to take your time and don't rush things / useless combos. but yet again i would need to fight other good peaches to really confirm that.
 

mdmfromdaridge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
387
Location
The Woodlands, Texas
The problem with peach is her aerial mobility, her high priority dair, and her bair outranging your everything. A good peach will stay off the ground and in a diagonal position from you so that your linear banana game can't take a hold of her. The peanuts will help but her nair destroys the peanuts easily so she can just nair as she approachs with a turnip in hand. I find peach EXTREMELY problematic. It's really all about getting her down to ground level so that you can actually use bananas, but a smart peach won't stay on the ground for any extended period of time.
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
marth doesn't lose to any character below A tier

he barely loses to d3 and ROB

but he gets ***** by marth 2.0

so yeah
 
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