A few specifics about Pillaring...

[SpeedAcE]

That I can't seem to find anywhere. I can assume some of what I think is correct, but I need an experienced player to verify it, if you could. Thanks in advance.

1. Can you safely pillar behind someone's shield? If so, is rolling their only means of escape?

2. If you pillar the front of someone's shield, how good does their timing have to be to grab you? Why is pillaring used often if it can just be grabbed?

3. Say you pillar the front of someone's shield. (For example, Marth) If immediately after the first shine hits their shield, can you JC a grab out of a shine and grab them first? (assuming Marth grabs also)

 

[terr13]

1.) I think some characters can get out of it. Samus and Bowser come to mind, and I think Fox might be able to shine out of it, not sure.

2.) They need pretty good timing, check scotu's frame data, I think the opening is like 11 frames, and grabs take 7 frames.

3.) They can probably grab you if they have perfect timing, since you need to start your jump which is a couple of frames.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

1. They can jump out, or Wavedash out and counterattack with an attack with more range. Tink did it vs. Forward in some Insomnia matches iirc, wavedash backwards out of the pillar and fsmash.

2. Very few people go for the grab on the pillar because being hit by either the shine or the dair means a huge long combo at low-mid percents, or setup for a kill at high percents. Most of the time, the reward for landing the grab (which is difficult, especially since the falco can mix up their pillars so you have to time it differently) isn't worth the risk of getting hit.

3. They can roll or spot dodge out of that. They can't grab you even if they're frame perfect.

Hey I'm just curious Scotu how many frames of shield not being in stun would there be if you did dair-shine-JC grab

5 for Falco, and 6 for fox, when you perfect jc grab asap.

Frame data on pillaring is in Scotu's frame data q and a thread.

Green = Their Shield is in stun
Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28
29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine Again

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

if done perfectly there's no way for anyone to grab out of pillar, but if the Falco isn't perfect it's still a viable option considering how much Falco gets ***** from grabs. Doraki tested some time ago with AR that shield grabbing a perfect pillar is impossible but characters such as Fox, Samus and Bowser can break it using something out of their shield.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

if done perfectly there's no way for anyone to grab out of pillar, but if the Falco isn't perfect it's still a viable option considering how much Falco gets ***** from grabs. Doraki tested some time ago with AR that shield grabbing a perfect pillar is impossible but characters such as Fox, Samus and Bowser can break it using something out of their shield.

I would like to see proof of this. Scotu made pillaring frame data, and according to that, you can be grabbed out of a perfect pillar. The only way to really prevent being grabbed is mixing up the timing for the dair.

 

[SpeedAcE]

It can be shield grabbed. I've seen high level Marth's (M2K) do it occasionally.

He is hit often though. Although I'm still looking for the answer as to why pillaring is acceptable if it is so easily stopped.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

It can be shield grabbed. I've seen high level Marth's (M2K) do it occasionally.

He is hit often though. Although I'm still looking for the answer as to why pillaring is acceptable if it is so easily stopped.

Well, in game situations aren't proof because few falco's pillar frame perfectly.

It's not easily stopped. It is difficult to shieldgrab, and if you miss it, you get ****ed hard. It's just really dangerous to shieldgrab it.

 

[Ryan-K]

also consider your typical grab takes about 7 frames to come out

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

also consider your typical grab takes about 7 frames to come out

Which is why it's hard to time. On the ideal pillar, there are 14 frames where your shield is not in stun. That means that you have a 7 frame window, and that window shifts depending on how early they dair.

Actually, there is a way to pillar that cannot be shieldgrabbed: If you pillar frame perfectly with fair, you cannot be shieldgrabbed. However, it's also harder and not as widespread.

 

[Chillaxin]

1. I'm pretty sure that if you have perfect pillaring, and I mean no pausing, continuous l-cancelling and quick JC shining, you can pillar safely behind characters. And like the first response says, Fox can shine out of it too. So be careful not to just pillar non stop until u hit him. After about 3-4 shines, grab or switch it up.

2. Pillaring is used as a pressure move. It's really aggressive and it limits the opponents time to think. So instead of them trying to think of the perfect time to grab you, they'll be thinking about finding a way to get out. And again, if you do it good, they're chances of shield grabbing you are really low. So just practise it, with stars on or something, against a human player.

3. The first response was right in saying, if you JC a grab out of the shine, chances are that they will grab you first, because of the lag frames you have compared to the opponent. So if you wanna play mind games, pillar and JC a shine with an empty SHFFL and grab them right away. Has to be really fast though.

OK I really hope that helped man

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

1. I'm pretty sure that if you have perfect pillaring, and I mean no pausing, continuous l-cancelling and quick JC shining, you can pillar safely behind characters. And like the first response says, Fox can shine out of it too. So be careful not to just pillar non stop until u hit him. After about 3-4 shines, grab or switch it up.

2. Pillaring is used as a pressure move. It's really aggressive and it limits the opponents time to think. So instead of them trying to think of the perfect time to grab you, they'll be thinking about finding a way to get out. And again, if you do it good, they're chances of shield grabbing you are really low. So just practise it, with stars on or something, against a human player.

3. The first response was right in saying, if you JC a grab out of the shine, chances are that they will grab you first, because of the lag frames you have compared to the opponent. So if you wanna play mind games, pillar and JC a shine with an empty SHFFL and grab them right away. Has to be really fast though.

OK I really hope that helped man

You would have helped more if you'd read my posts. You cannot be shieldgrabbed out of shine->jc grab.

Pillaring behind characters only protects you from shieldgrabbing, every other counter is still a viable option.

Drephen consistently shieldgrabs Falcos out of their pillar. Mew2King does it sometimes as well.

 

[Chillaxin]

You would have helped more if you'd read my posts. You cannot be shieldgrabbed out of shine->jc grab.

Pillaring behind characters only protects you from shieldgrabbing, every other counter is still a viable option.

Drephen consistently shieldgrabs Falcos out of their pillar. Mew2King does it sometimes as well.

Just wondering, and I'm not trying to start anything because you have good points, but when you said "you cannot be shieldgrabbed out of shine-> jc grab", you kind of contradicted yourself when you said "Drephen consistently shieldgrabs Falcos out of their pillar. Mew2King does it sometimes as well."

I'm just wondering why you said that thats all. Maybe I'm misreading it, because I'm pretty sure I might be, and in case I am, plz correct me.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Just wondering, and I'm not trying to start anything because you have good points, but when you said "you cannot be shieldgrabbed out of shine-> jc grab", you kind of contradicted yourself when you said "Drephen consistently shieldgrabs Falcos out of their pillar. Mew2King does it sometimes as well."

I'm just wondering why you said that thats all. Maybe I'm misreading it, because I'm pretty sure I might be, and in case I am, plz correct me.

Shine->JC grab is not a pillar, because you cannot repeat it to exert pressure on a shield.

 

[Chillaxin]

OH so thats what you meant.

I see your point now thnks.