A few beginner's questions

[Ecoh]

Hey all, new Sheik player here with a few questions.

First: My training partner primarily plays Marth, and I have no idea what to do when he upthrows me. He just keeps me in the air with utilts and uair's, and I find myself scrambling to get back on the ground. What should I do in such a situation?

Second: Is there ever a situation where I would simply dash grab as opposed to boost grabbing or JC grabbing? I don't know the minute differences between them. I understand that boost grabbing extends Sheik's grab range at the cost of more ending lag, and that JC grabbing is much less laggy; is there anything to know besides that?

Third: It's probably pretty elementary for most of you, but: what stages are advantageous for Sheik? I typically enjoy FoD or Battlefield because of the platforms, but I really have no idea if that is merely personal preference.

Thank you for any help you can provide. I really do want to improve, and am excited to do so.

 

[Alulim]

1) DI / Jump Out after taking an up-tilt. If you're up, you can just get back to the ground by not doing anything / occasionally intercepting him with nairs/bairs.
2) No.
3) Dreamland for its ceiling, Battlefield/FoD for tilt-traps, platforms and all.

 

[Laudandus]

JC grabs are lower-lag versions of dash grabs, and boost grabs have "more ending lag" in the sense that they are dash grabs, not JC grabs.

In general it's best if you can figure out why you're losing and pick a stage based on that. In general small blast lines are better against floaties, and I like small stages vs fast characters but dreamland/FD vs Marth/Ganon types

 

[SUNG475]

Yo Ecoh,

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUSwaCv7mm8 At 7:58 M2K DIs the up tilt it well (try to SDI and DI down+behind Marth)
And then at 10:23 he DIs where Marth is facing (maybe in anticipation of a fair?) but then continues to DI in on the fair chains (definitely DI down+away from fairs)
But there's only so much you can do when you're above him. Sometimes you should just try and go for the ledge. Scramble creatively :> if on platform stages go for some wavelands

2. I only boost/JC grab. I think dash grab is only good for chaingrabbing (but I have never practiced cg with sheik so I'm not really sure...I should def start practicing that)

3. My favorite stage overall is Yoshis Story. But I think my best stage as Sheik would be Fountain it's a freakin good stage with the platforms. It's super MU dependent but I think the general is Fountain > Battlefield > Yoshis > Dreamland > Final Des > Pkmn Stadium

There isn't a super all encompassing Sheik guide but
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mlNwPWxO2y8u_w1t_jf_FzMx6OC8BJyFZ2fW-rOj9zk/edit
is a pretty good start (I'd read through all the frame data and KK stuff)

You should get a recording setup don't be lazy about improving cause you'll get what you earn

 

[Alulim]

There's no point in dash grabbing because boost grabbing is essentially a dash grab with flat out better range. Unless you can't consistently boost grab/JC grab interchangeably (something easily achievable with some practice), then there really is no reason to use it.

@ SUNG475

I don't agree with your choice in regards to 'general' stages.
Yoshi's only has platforms and is a short-stage that's okay for tech chasing falcon/spacies. In comparison, it has a very low ceiling - You'll die by upthrow upair, upsmash and other stuff a lot earlier. Also doesn't give Sheik much room to camp or maneuver herself.

Dreamland is arguably Sheik's best stage (best against Falco imo). High ceilings, difficult for people to kill you off both vertically and horizontally. In comparison, Sheik gets all these nice platforms, camping ability given stage size and is able to maximize her edgehogging ability because the stage's so big. Battlefield's alright ish - more or less neutral for Sheik against Spacies and all.

My rating for stage picks against spacies:
Fox: Fountain > Dreamland > Battlefield > Yoshi's > FD > PK Stadium (Always ban against Fox if possible)

Not completely sure about Falco. He's better in Fountain, worse in dreamland, not sure about battlefield, arguably same as fox at Yoshi's, way better on FD and worse than Fox on stadium. Guess it'd be something like:
Falco: Dreamland > Battlefield/Fountain > Battlefield/Fountain > PK Stadium > Yoshi's > FD

 

[SUNG475]

@ Alulim

Dash grabbing is faster than boost grabbing so for things like chain grabbing (where you want to grab at a distance asap) dash grab should be the best

For the stages, you make perfect sense and I guess my preferences influenced me a lot. I like close quarters. I don't like being camped myself so I find that camping is easier on smaller stages

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm only now realizing "Boost grab" is a dumb term. I vote we rename it DAC dash grab -- Dash Attack Canceled (DAC) dash grab. Or DAC grab.

1. Some basics -- Marth's FJ commits him a lot because he's a lot floatier than you are. So you're going to be going high either with your jump or by taking a number of up moves and then going to the side (in front of him) so he has to FJ fair to keep going. I say in front because his uair hitbox is very small in front of him whereas it's huge behind him. This also means he can't tip bair to push you off if you're DIing to move away from his fair.

In short, the plan is generally to get high enough for him to have to FJ to follow up and then DI to the side. Usually in front of him.

On occasion the Marth will be sloppy at like 30-40% and hit a tipped u-tilt on you. If this happens, DI 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock -- whichever puts you behind him -- and just get ready to eat the bair (same DI -- you're trying to get away from him). Only way this goes badly is if he goes for something like turn-dash fairs or WD tipped f-smash but neither of those combo and you'll have time to see them coming.

Getting back to when you're in front of him... Marth's fair you want to 4 or 8 o'clock DI depending on which direction he's facing. At middle percents you will eat the fair and then want to fast fall to the ground as soon as your stun elapses or drift offstage slightly and take the edge from there. There's no perfect way down from a savvy Marth though -- so be creative and be prepared to do weird things. Needles, bair's hitbox immediately below you, the attack speed on your aerials, and your solid air-dodge / waveland are your friends. If all else fails it's not terrible to Up-B to the top platform at times. You'll get hit but it gives you time and space to prepare (and it's generally an awkward position for him to cover if he's on the ground).

2. Dash grab is useful at close range when the DAC grab & dash JC grab will whiff but you can't reach the opponent with walk --> grab dash. It's also not bad when a Fox is dancing close to you and going behind you and such (because it hits behind you).

3. All of the stages are good for Sheik or can be made to be good for her vs every character. I feel it's harder to do this in some instances though -- namely using Pokemon Stadium vs super good dash dancers, FD vs Ice Climbers, and FOD vs Jigglypuff.

 

[Ecoh]

Thanks for all the great info, guys, it's super helpful.

New question: When should one jab reset the down throw as opposed to just techchase? I was watching a video that said "Jab reset if they don't tech as a mixup," but how the heck are you supposed to know that they're not going to tech?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Green impact splat.

 

[Garde Noir]

This is also going to sounds dumb, but as we're on the topic of new sheiks-- I'm coming from Pikachu main's, and I'm having trouble knowing when to upsmash and when to downsmash. I know how that sounds, but I'm used to Upsmash having an uphitbox, and downsmash having a surround hitbox. any tips?

 

[Ecoh]

In general, downsmash should be your all purpose smash. Forward smash generally leaves you too open for counterattack to be useful. Upsmash is useful on stages where it can go through the platform (Yoshi's Story and Fountain of Dreams), or when you downthrow someone and they DI in such a way that the upsmash tips. Otherwise: downsmash is your best bet.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is also going to sounds dumb, but as we're on the topic of new sheiks-- I'm coming from Pikachu main's, and I'm having trouble knowing when to upsmash and when to downsmash. I know how that sounds, but I'm used to Upsmash having an uphitbox, and downsmash having a surround hitbox. any tips?

Pikachu's attacks are all around his body because his moves mostly involve him spinning. Sheik's are mostly in front of her or to her sides because they're kicks or cutting motions with her hands. You don't really have a surround hitbox in the way Pikachu does.

I recommend repositioning (move so that they're to the side of you). Up smash is mostly a combo move, but if they're above and to your side then it's okay. D-smash is better if they're lower to the ground or on the ground at (usually) about 20%+ (whenever it starts knocking the opponent over).

 

[SSB_Hello]

whenever kk speaks i can hear his voice in my head.

its odd.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's one of my superpowers.

 

[Leeyam]

Why do people generally say Sheik is the easiest competitive character to learn?

 

[Garde Noir]

Why do people generally say Sheik is the easiest competitive character to learn?

This may be ironic because I posted a question here a little over a month ago, but I'm going to take a stab at this

Sheik tends to be one of the first competitive players that people learn. Besides that-- she has a lot of easy to pull combos and her moveset is pretty intuitive. She isn't extremely technical, and doesn't require hours of grinding like other really competitive players like Fox and Marth require. Her wavedash is short so it isn't a necessity to use, her projectiles are one of the best in the game, and don't require a ton of skill to know when to use, and her punish is wonderful.

She does fairly well against other competitive players too: with an even matchup against Marth (which I disagree with, but that's just me) and a fairly good matchup against Falcon, and the Spacies, she is a force to be reckoned with.

All in all, sheik is just easy to pick up and enter the competitive scene with (not necessarily tourney and such), and has the learning curve that anyone can pull into at any time-- no need to have started in '07 to be good now.

 

[EMP_Zurg]

Id pretty much say that it's just because other new players have ****ty spacing so you'll outrange them and get lots of shieldgrabs which equal lots of really high damage easy because they also probably have bad DI. But it gets harder to grab and space and combo vs good players so that's why you actually have to be good to beat good players.

 

[Globe]

1) All my training partners (4 people) use mostly Marth. Only 2 of them go for grabs and if they do grab I tend to do a side a to hit them so they can't continue the combo.

3.) I like platforms when playing Shiek. Tend to not play on FD.

 

[Aidoony]

1 is juggling air dodge to not get hit