A couple small things

[MelloGrunty]

i've been playing lucas for a month or two now, and i had a couple small questions.

for one, how do you guys land grabs more often? my problem is my opponents get up to 130 and they can immediately tell i'm fishing for a grab since i know dair -> upsmash won't work anymore, so i have to either catch them in the air with a bair or i have to find a grab and up-throw, but lucas's grab feels so slow and short (especially for a tether, and even when jump-cancelled grabbing) that it's becoming really easy for me to get punished, and i have to go back to pressuring until they die to nair or a sweetspot fair offstage at like... 180%. it's becoming a serious problem, so how do you guys land grabs more often? this is the biggest question i have right now, so as much advice as you all can provide, the better!

the second thing i wanted to ask about, do you guys know of any applications for OU burst? i've never really experimented with it except a few times in friendlies, and it seems like it's more worth it to just save the OU charge almost 100% of the time. is there something i'm missing out on? maybe a tech, some sort of situational use for it that i could be applying more often? i've heard you can use it for recovery mixups, but not much else.

next, i wanna talk about f-smash vs d-smash. d-smash is good for covering ledges when you have OU and good spacing, but i'm not sure when to use it over f-smash, both in combos and in edgeguarding. because i know f-smash can be angled downwards, i'm not sure how the hitboxes compare. for combos, i sometimes like to go for hard tech-reads after dairs that go into a tech situation, but they don't work out a whole lot. it also seems like, because lucas is so short, f-smash and d-smash cover about the same area unless you angle f-smash upwards. i'm aware that f-smash has a slight disjoint, but doesn't d-smash last longer? also, i've managed to get a combo off once in which i was able to get both hits of an OU d-smash. is there a known setup for this? i'm just not sure which to rely on in what situations; i'd like to get more application out of smash attacks other than up-smash. any advice in regards to this?

for the last serious question, what is lucas's best out of shield option? i'm aware wavedash OOS is really good, but i'm having troubles determining whether to nair out of shield (for safer coverage of more area), dair out of shield (for combo setups), or magnet out of shield. i've heard a lot of different things (supposedly magnet OOS is really good, but i haven't tried it out that much)

as for one bonus question that i've been discussing with a friend of mine, this isn't really advice but moreso an opinionated question; who do you think is a better character, lucas or ness? i'm aware that lucas wins the ness matchup, but i feel like ness is a lot more reliable than lucas (specifically with his fair, grab setups, and throws). this isn't something i'm worried about obviously, but i wanted to know if you guys had any comments about this. this is just in reference to a tier list, i guess, as in who would be placed higher, lucas or ness.

much appreciated for any advice the smashboards community can provide! :D

 

[zFrost]

1. pivot grab is faster, also try magnet into jc grab, dair to bair works sometimes depending on di or u can follow up with uair if they're at like 180%ish as u mentioned, it's all about the mixups tho

2.ou is another alt ko method off dair if u can't land bair and uair won't kill, it is fast so it can be good oos and to escape combo's

3. down smash in combo's if you get hard reads, down smash at the ledge is usefull against spacies and certain other recoveries as it covers a nice area and has a 2nd hitbox if u miss,

4. nair, mag, pkburst, wd,a djc ariel, all these are situational and sometimes ur best option may just be to roll or spotdodge

5. i feel like both are super close and ness is easier to pick up but if they're both at the highest possible level of play i'd say lucas

 

[Kipcom]

Since Zfrost said all the important stuff I'll just add a little instead of making a huge post.


Down Smash is decent at the ledge for edgeguarding low recoveries, but once you fight someone competent enough to SDI -> wall tech it, it becomes almost useless as the tech from the wall will grant them invincibility from the 2nd hit. Still, dont be discouraged from using it on those who aren't good at wall teching your down smash.

Lucas's out of shield options depend on the MU, basically. Some characters you'll be able to grab, most characters you'll be able to nair or dair oos, and other characters you're just forced to buffer a roll, basically. Lucas doesn't have the best defensive/OoS options, but he can still manage. Burst out of shield is great if you can do it frame perfectly (and it's Lucas's fastest OoS option, I believe). It's even better if you get it out of shield and they're at high percents, since you'll most likely get them off stage with this (or even potentially kill them). The range on burst is pretty small though, so they'd have to space extreeemely poorly on your shield to get hit by it.


Personally, I think that Lucas is better than Ness, but I've heard a lot of people saying that Ness might be overall better as of 3.6b (which I don't agree with, but whatever). Lucas in general gets more off of his combos vs the entire cast than Ness does, but I don't think Ness is significantly worse either. Also, Lucas vs. Ness is like, a roughly even matchup.

 

[D e l t a]

Gonna just add to the wall of text thread.

1. This is where working on your neutral comes into play. Notice their reactions to you going for a grab. If they spot dodge a lot at high %, go for a long lasting hitbox (nair/Dair, hold magnet, etc) or bait the spot dodge (dash dance / wave dash in their zone) then go for a grab.

As Frost said, you can use magnet on shield -> JC grab and it should work well at times. If they roll / move away, just read their movement and react better. Try to pressure players into shield at high %. They should be scared of getting hit by aerials / smash attacks which can lead to getting grabs off the mixup. If you're only going for grabs at high %, then they won't often stay in shield. His JC grab takes 14 frames iirc (the equivalent of a smash attack's frame data) and has only moderate vertical reach / decent horizontal range. Never dash grab (1 frame slower - 15 frames) and it's extremely punishable. Pivot grab is fast (12 frames I believe) and it can cross up opponents when you go behind them.

2. OU burst can be a reliable kill option around 115-130%. I see Kipcom use it way more than any other Lucas players. It's the fastest OoS move (2 frames + 4 frames jumpsquat) and covers most of his body. For the most part, OU is simply best to charge your smash attacks to deal better damage to a player / shield. I use it as a recovery mixup to stall slightly in place of magnet stalling.

3. Fsmash works off trapping landings & has a better horizontal disjoint. Pretty safe on shield, especially with a charge. It's good to finish off a combo on heavies / fast fallers. Typically I lead into Fsmash from dthrow (when opponent doesn't DI), Dair -> Fsmash, or from a sourspot Fair.

Dsmash has higher startup, but wayyyy less end lag and has a longer lasting hitbox / optional 2nd hit as mentioned. Best at the ledge and it's mostly safe on shield. I haven't found too many uses outside of ledge guarding with it. Getting the 2nd hit is situational. It depends on their DI / SDI and where the hitbox lands.

4. Frost & Kip covered this best

5. Playing Lucas or Ness comes down to style preference.

Lucas is almost purely horizontal / vertical, linear movement while using high pressure options and controlling certain areas of space very well

Ness covers a larger zone rather than small areas, but has to commit to his options more. He's more of a bait character and reactionary playstyle.

I'd say when both are pushed to the limit, Lucas has less resounding weaknesses and the high technical skill ceiling combined with better kill options will result in him being better. At the moment, they're both about the same in terms of how well a player can perform with them. Ness is somewhat more common in the scene, especially due to receiving buffs rather than nerfs and he's got a more fluid playstyle.

 

[zFrost]

Since Zfrost said all the important stuff I'll just add a little instead of making a huge post.

and there's delta huge posts on everything

 

[D e l t a]

and there's delta's huge posts on everything

I like to write words. I'm a thorough person lol