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A Change I Feel Has Yet To Be Made

_Ganondorf_

The Demon King
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GanonFist
its not just the ko percentage but the general nastiness of what he can get out of any grab, but to address lucas and ness, i imagine as the meta grows their throws will be need to be nerfed as kill options, but thats just my guess but there isnt much a point in kneejerk buffs and nerfs until the meta evolves.
I agree about letting the meta evolve and such. But "general nastiness" as you put it is also a flawed logic since Donkey Kong, Marth, Fox, Falco etc. also have a lot of "general nastiness" after a throw. The logic just isn't consistent.

Its either
1 - everyone has (at least) a decent grab range and have good follow ups to throws. With characters with great KO throws and/or high KO potential out of throw have their grab range on the "short end", and characters with bad throws have a longer reaching grab.
Or;
2 - just buff the range on characters with crap grab range so that not only certain characters with good throws/follow ups have a bad grab range.

Besides Ganon doesn't need an amazing grab range. He just need a standing grab range similar to Ike or Lucario, nothing really crazy just something that can grab the foe with out the opponent being half way in Ganon's shield. But most importantly a grab range that actually grab low opponents (also his Jab should hit low opponents too but that a different topic)
 
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skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
Unfortunately there are specific pieces of information that I lack to properly explain this using correct terms and specific details, but I should have enough information to explain the problem that crouch canceling is.

From my understanding, landing lag can actually cancel nontumble stun frames, and crouching upon being hit also lessens the strength of the move in some way that lessens hitstun (sometimes this turns tumble stun frames into nontumble stun frames). Since downwards DI (which causes the character to land) will cancel the majority of the stun frames via canceling nontumble stun frames, it is a major contributor to the strength of CC. So when I refer to CC in my explanation, I will be referring to holding down as a means to nullify hitstun altogether, since both factors work together very well to do so.

CC is currently a defensive option that is instantaneous, is active indefinitely, and has no penalty aside from the damage taken and the largely reduced amount of hitstun frames. The reward from CC is huge in comparison to its minimal risk. Furthermore, a character could get hit (even whiff punished) and in the middle of a combo they can utilize the CC mechanic (technically down DI and land) to nullify the rest of the hitstun.

Imagine if such a mechanic were to exist in a traditional fighter such as SF4.

For those who don't know how a Focus Attack works in SF4: A Focus attack is an option that can only absorb 1 hit and only while charging. A Focus attack has to be active for at least 10 frames before it can do the attack that has an 11 frame startup and 35 frames of recovery. The attack has to charge for at least 18 frames before it can actually do significant damage. After about 54 frames the character is forced to attack if it was not dash canceled. Forward dashes have 18 total frames on average and backdashes have 25 total frames on average. Even with such a risk/reward, the Focus Attack mechanic has received many criticisms and has been seen as a mechanic that was not healthy for the game.

Now imagine that Focus Attack had the properties of Crouch Canceling. Focus Attack would then be able to absorb any number of hits, could be active indefinitely, and can cancel instantaneously into anything instead of the required risk it currently has. Because it could cancel instantaneously you could get a free combo with faster and better attacks. Lastly you would be able to “break combos” simply by holding a button to activate such a mechanic, and even get a punish afterwards. This all may sound absurd, and it is, but this is currently how CC functions. Obviously SF4 isn't Smash and certain factors should be considered differently, but the concept of such a mechanic should still be seen as problematic in Smash for similar reasons.

CC affects MUs differently due to being heavily effective against certain characters and not very effective against others, but such an option should not exist for any MU. There should not be such a mechanic that nullifies hitstun without equivalent risk, and especially not a mechanic that could be activated after already being in hitstun.

Removing such a mechanic would also mean that crouching under grabs should no longer be a problem. Crouching would no longer be an effective option against attacks that would hit a crouching opponent, so shielding would become necessary and grabs would still beat shielding which is what grabs are designed to beat.
 
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EmptySky00

Banned via Warnings
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Apr 15, 2012
Messages
804
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Unfortunately there are specific pieces of information that I lack to properly explain this using correct terms and specific details, but I should have enough information to explain the problem that crouch canceling is.

From my understanding, landing lag can actually cancel nontumble stun frames, and crouching upon being hit also lessens the strength of the move in some way that lessens hitstun (sometimes this turns tumble stun frames into nontumble stun frames). Since downwards DI (which causes the character to land) will cancel the majority of the stun frames via canceling nontumble stun frames, it is a major contributor to the strength of CC. So when I refer to CC in my explanation, I will be referring to holding down as a means to nullify hitstun altogether, since both factors work together very well to do so.

CC is currently a defensive option that is instantaneous, is active indefinitely, and has no penalty aside from the damage taken and the largely reduced amount of hitstun frames. The reward from CC is huge in comparison to its minimal risk. Furthermore, a character could get hit (even whiff punished) and in the middle of a combo they can utilize the CC mechanic (technically down DI and land) to nullify the rest of the hitstun.

Imagine if such a mechanic were to exist in a traditional fighter such as SF4.

For those who don't know how a Focus Attack works in SF4: A Focus attack is an option that can only absorb 1 hit and only while charging. A Focus attack has to be active for at least 10 frames before it can do the attack that has an 11 frame startup and 35 frames of recovery. The attack has to charge for at least 18 frames before it can actually do significant damage. After about 54 frames the character is forced to attack if it was not dash canceled. Forward dashes have 18 total frames on average and backdashes have 25 total frames on average. Even with such a risk/reward, the Focus Attack mechanic has received many criticisms and has been seen as a mechanic that was not healthy for the game.

Now imagine that Focus Attack had the properties of Crouch Canceling. Focus Attack would then be able to absorb any number of hits, could be active indefinitely, and can cancel instantaneously into anything instead of the required risk it currently has. Because it could cancel instantaneously you could get a free combo with faster and better attacks. Lastly you would be able to “break combos” simply by holding a button to activate such a mechanic, and even get a punish afterwards. This all may sound absurd, and it is, but this is currently how CC functions. Obviously SF4 isn't Smash and certain factors should be considered differently, but the concept of such a mechanic should still be seen as problematic in Smash for similar reasons.

CC affects MUs differently due to being heavily effective against certain characters and not very effective against others, but such an option should not exist for any MU. There should not be such a mechanic that nullifies hitstun without equivalent risk, and especially not a mechanic that could be activated after already being in hitstun.

Removing such a mechanic would also mean that crouching under grabs should no longer be a problem. Crouching would no longer be an effective option against attacks that would hit a crouching opponent, so shielding would become necessary and grabs would still beat shielding which is what grabs are designed to beat.

My God. You won the internet (including Google). I agree entirely 100%.

I feel like it's a more controversial opinion since CC'ing is a keepsake from our beloved Melee (hence why I sort of tone down my opinion on it so as to not induce massive dissent), but I honestly do agree completely.


I suppose a counterargument could be that this is a defensive mechanic that is inherently beaten by the best conversion method in Smash (grabs), so that keeps it in check. But honestly the ability to do this during a whiff or during hitstun just always made it seem absurd to me. It's a mechanic that has changed from forcing the opponent to have clean hits in order to convert (Umbreon's description of it), into a mechanic that vastly skews the risk/reward for actually attacking the opponent. In some MU's it feels as though in most positions you actually can't attack your opponent because you have nothing effective to deal with the crouching mechanic, while other characters are equipped to deal with it making its potency erratic across the board which is very annoying. It skews the risk extremely when it comes to attacking and vastly increases defender's advantage. There's not enough risk to the mechanic (like you said) in relation to the reward that the mechanic offers.
 
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Kix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
352
Two-frames of additional hitstun or at least restricting an attack input for that long would probably help alleviate the issue while keeping the general mechanic intact.
 

EmptySky00

Banned via Warnings
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CC'ing in general is a bad mechanic in my honest and biased opinion. The issue is that it will likely be preserved due to Melee. On characters with weak CC's it's not terrible, but on characters with Godly CC's it's absolutely stupid and it degenerates the game.
 
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MegaMissingno

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missingno
Doesn't Jigglypuff have it bad enough in PM already? Please don't take away what little we have left.
 

EmptySky00

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I believe I said on the previous page that you shouldn't balance the game by giving bad characters broken mechanics.

Leaving it in just so that Jigglypuff can use it is stupid. That's not an argument to me. It's not even like I'm speaking on behalf of the PMDT when I make these arguments, so no ones threatening to take anything away. It's not that real. Plus, I highly doubt the forfeiture of ducking under grabs will severely harm Jigglypuff. It'll make her situationally worse, but overall she would still be just as viable (or nonviable depending on your viewpoint). In a world where character viability is determined by grab ducking.
 
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Lime Cultivist

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Honestly I hate CC'ing. Some characters can abuse it really well, such as Roy's and GW's down tilts, and probably Bowser (who I'm thinking of playing more) can CC a lot with his armor. I'm hoping I won't have to do that often, but the opponent should go for grabs more anyways, since they always lead to hard combos on Bowser. I'm especially scared to fight my friend's Sheik.
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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Honestly I hate CC'ing. Some characters can abuse it really well, such as Roy's and GW's down tilts, and probably Bowser (who I'm thinking of playing more) can CC a lot with his armor. I'm hoping I won't have to do that often, but the opponent should go for grabs more anyways, since they always lead to hard combos on Bowser. I'm especially scared to fight my friend's Sheik.
With good reason. Sheik is a jerk.
 

Evilagram

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
420
I think as a point of design it's interesting how the otherwise unused dash grabs have lower hitboxes to grab people lower to the ground.
 
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