A Bit of a Reality Check for the Newcomer Hopefuls.

[PsychoIncarnate]

I really doubt a Square Enix character will get in. But you never know. If we somehow get five third parties (LOL) I wouldn't be surprised to see an FF character in this.

Square Enix makes mario sports games, it's not like it's unreasonable

 

[jigglover]

Square Enix makes mario sports games, it's not like it's unreasonable

I know, the first time I did the star cup in MSM I was actually surprised!

 

[8-peacock-8]

Square Enix makes mario sports games, it's not like it's unreasonable

No one is saying it is.

I just don't see one getting in.

 

[Moon Monkey]

To be fair, it is easy for many people to assume that Mewtwo has been "replaced". Seeing how he was in the previous installment and not in the latest. I am unaware if Sakurai has posted any explanation on the Mewtwo issue, but as far as I know, we don't know if Mewtwo was simply replaced with Lucario or unfinished making him unable to be included into the roster.

 

[Deleted member]

If he was replaced, he wouldn't have data in Brawl.

 

[Moon Monkey]

If he was replaced, he wouldn't have data in Brawl.

Well as consumers/genral public, we have no clue what went on in the development stages of the game. Sakurai could have been working Mewtwo and opted to complete Lucario in Mewtwo stead. Yes, there is evidence that shows that Mewtwo was at some point started, but clearly he was never finished. Do you have any articles/reports to shed light on this?

with nintendo's lack of its own independent games lately and increasing its support from third party developers it's perfectly plausible that more third-party representatives that have been on nintendo consoles will be in smash 4

I wasn't ruling out all 3rd parties, But like i have said before he wants to stress that this is a Nintendo-allstar fighting game. so the focus will primarily be on 1st party characters. I'm sure key 3rd party characters have a good chance to be included.

 

[jigglover]

Come on! He was found in the programming, is that not evidence enough?! Mewtwo even has his victory video in the data that you get after beating classic/all star mode! Mewtwo has but one thing in common with Lucario in terms of move-set which is aura sphere/shadow ball!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think another reality check that people commonly disregard, is the fact that when arguing for a characters inclusion, you must also be able to argue the other side and acknowledge the fact that there are things going against particular characters.

Logic works both ways, and I happen to see a lack of it from many people when it comes to this game. Not even just this site but in general. I know people who logically believe that Sonic The Hedgehog will get 3 more characters in the next game or that Anime characters could make it.

And then there are people who argue simply for a character's inclusion, but never accept reasons why they won't be. For example, take Waluigi's supporters. I have seen situations where good points are posed for his inclusion, however, when there are ideas brought up against his inclusion, they are disregarded as "illogical" when in fact they really aren't that crazy. I myself wouldn't really mind Waluigi, but would much rather have Paper Mario. I understand that Paper Mario is essentially Mario, and i accept that as something against him. Many other speculators do no such thing, and simply disregard these facts, sometimes then arguing that other characters with the same cons have a better chance simply because of other factors. Or just because a character is "popular" means that they will without a doubt get in before another character. After logically reviewing the pros AND THE CONS, it is completely different than just with the pros.

Well theres my rant for the day i suppose lol

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I think another reality check that people commonly disregard, is the fact that when arguing for a characters inclusion, you must also be able to argue the other side and acknowledge the fact that there are things going against particular characters.

And then there are people who argue simply for a character's inclusion, but never accept reasons why they won't be. For example, take Waluigi's supporters. I have seen situations where good points are posed for his inclusion, however, when there are ideas brought up against his inclusion, they are disregarded as "illogical" when in fact they really aren't that crazy. I myself wouldn't really mind Waluigi, but would much rather have Paper Mario. I understand that Paper Mario is essentially Mario, and i accept that as something against him. Many other speculators do no such thing, and simply disregard these facts, sometimes then arguing that other characters with the same cons have a better chance simply because of other factors. Or just because a character is "popular" means that they will without a doubt get in before another character. After logically reviewing the pros AND THE CONS, it is completely different than just with the pros.

Completely agree. I support every character in my sig, and then some, for inclusion, but I freely acknowledge that there are things going against each one of them(some more than others). Some people don't see it that way, and can't bring themselves to see how their favorite character couldn't possibly be excluded from SSB4.

 

[Deleted member]

The only point against him that I see is that he's not in "mainstream" Mario titles, which is kind of a flawed point, given that it's clear Sakurai doesn't care about "mainstream" vs. "spin-off" like we do.

I understand that he does have some competition in the form of Toad, though.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

The only point against him that I see is that he's not in "mainstream" Mario titles, which is kind of a flawed point, given that it's clear Sakurai doesn't care about "mainstream" vs. "spin-off" like we do.

I understand that he does have some competition in the form of Toad, though.

Who are you talking about, Paper Mario or Waluigi? I'm confused...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I thought it was pretty clear neither Miyamoto or Sakurai thought he was up to par with mainstream characters

 

[Deleted member]

I thought it was pretty clear neither Miyamoto or Sakurai thought he was up to par with mainstream characters

By what grounds is it "clear" that he isn't "up to par" with "mainstream" characters in their eyes?
Hell, "mainstream" is a fan concept.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Like i said, the problems i had with Waluigi are moot to me now, but i still personally think that things from spin off games should be side things in a game like smash bros. And yes, this goes against my own love of Paper Mario, and this will sound ridiculous, but i like to think of Paper Mario as more than a spin-off because of the smaller amount of installments and difference in gameplay. But that's probably just me.

And i look at mainstream for Mario as the adventure/platforming games that everybody Mario is REALLY known for. I do love me some Mario Party though...

 

[Robert of Normandy]

...so we're talking about Waluigi?

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

If he was replaced, he wouldn't have data in Brawl.

Technically, Mewtwo wasn't "replaced". He was just dropped during development in order to make space for Sonic, is what i have heard at least.

Like i said, the problems i had with Waluigi are moot to me now, but i still personally think that things from spin off games should be side things in a game like smash bros. And yes, this goes against my own love of Paper Mario, and this will sound ridiculous, but i like to think of Paper Mario as more than a spin-off because of the smaller amount of installments and difference in gameplay. But that's probably just me.

And i look at mainstream for Mario as the adventure/platforming games that everybody Mario is REALLY known for. I do love me some Mario Party though...

Paper Mario is consindered a spin off series, funny how the first Paper Mario was originally called "Super Mario RPG 2", too. I think Waluigi needs to step in honestly, the fact that he was created by Camelot and never starred in any main Mario game has been holding him back. But the Mario spin offs sells like hot bread, and when you think of "Mario spin offs" Waluigi is one of the first things that comes to my mind.

 

[Deleted member]

Technically, Mewtwo wasn't "replaced". He was just dropped during development in order to make space for Sonic, is what i have heard at least.

That's the point I'm getting at.
I'm saying if he was replaced, he wouldn't have data, but he does have data, ergo, he was not replaced.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Technically, Mewtwo wasn't "replaced". He was just dropped during development in order to make space for Sonic, is what i have heard at least.

Or he was jsut dropped because they didn't have time to finish him, and he was considered an acceptable loss for some reason. I haven't heard anything about Sonic being the reason he was scrapped, but who knows.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Or he was jsut dropped because they didn't have time to finish him, and he was considered an acceptable loss for some reason. I haven't heard anything about Sonic being the reason he was scrapped, but who knows.

Sonic was the last character they worked on during development (Besides Wolf), which explains why his moveset is very unimaginative. Also his role in SSE (Pfft haha, "role") was a big nothing, appeared during the very last seconds. It would make sense that he's the reason they dropped development on some of the forbidden characters because he had a much more popular demand. (Basicly Sakurai just put him in to shut the fans up)

 

[Deleted member]

His moveset was designed by Sega, not Sakurai.
At least from what I heard.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

I see, well. Sonic has never really had any much experience in fighting games before Brawl. Just Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle (where people assume his Brawl moveset takes inspiration from if i remember correctly), also explains why his moveset isn't that great.

 

[Onyx Oblivian]

Or he was jsut dropped because they didn't have time to finish him, and he was considered an acceptable loss for some reason. I haven't heard anything about Sonic being the reason he was scrapped, but who knows.

But imagine.

How would the roster have looked like, if Mewtwo was kept in? haha If they kept the "vertical" organization, one Pokemon rep would be need to be moved.

I would have organized it like this:

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

So if they kept Mewtwo, Pikachu would be a part of the StarFox crew? :D

 

[Ember Reaper]

But imagine.

How would the roster have looked like, if Mewtwo was kept in? haha If they kept the "vertical" organization, one Pokemon rep would be need to be moved.

I would have organized it like this:

Well Star Fox is a major series in smash, so putting it under Pikachu I don't think is best.
I like your idea though, but I think it'd fit better to put Mewtwo or Lucario underneath the starFox crew. But hey good changing ROB over to under G&W

 

[jigglover]

But imagine.

How would the roster have looked like, if Mewtwo was kept in? haha If they kept the "vertical" organization, one Pokemon rep would be need to be moved.

I would have organized it like this:

I like choosing random!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

@Niko you have a point. My take on Paper Mario is that they have a great story to it everytime, and it personally is one of my favorite series ever. This is why i would love Paper Mario as a character option, and i personally think he is very much underrated compared to the others in contention.

But that, again is my personal opinion. Why can't we just get all four of them? Wahhhhhh =(

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Indeed, but it's just the fact that he's the same plumber which is why i don't want him as a seperate character. I say Paper Mario as one of the possible alts for Mario, if more than one alt. for each character is even being consindered. We could have both Dr. Mario and Paper Mario.

 

[Deleted member]

But imagine.

How would the roster have looked like, if Mewtwo was kept in? haha If they kept the "vertical" organization, one Pokemon rep would be need to be moved.

I would have organized it like this:

Mewtwo would not have been the only one. There is also Roy and Dr. Mario.

 

[Onyx Oblivian]

Mewtwo would not have been the only one. There is also Roy and Dr. Mario.

Well thanks for making roster organization harder for me, Golden!

haha

Then it would have looked like this:

If I was Sakurai and has more time. haha

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

That roster just needs Pichu and then it's perfect. ◕‿◕

 

[FlareHabanero]

That roster just needs Pichu and then it's perfect. ◕‿◕

How about no.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

How about no.

You just destroyed the confidence of someone. (╭╮)

 

[Moon Monkey]

I think another reality check that people commonly disregard, is the fact that when arguing for a characters inclusion, you must also be able to argue the other side and acknowledge the fact that there are things going against particular characters.

Logic works both ways, and I happen to see a lack of it from many people when it comes to this game. Not even just this site but in general. I know people who logically believe that Sonic The Hedgehog will get 3 more characters in the next game or that Anime characters could make it.

And then there are people who argue simply for a character's inclusion, but never accept reasons why they won't be. For example, take Waluigi's supporters. I have seen situations where good points are posed for his inclusion, however, when there are ideas brought up against his inclusion, they are disregarded as "illogical" when in fact they really aren't that crazy. I myself wouldn't really mind Waluigi, but would much rather have Paper Mario. I understand that Paper Mario is essentially Mario, and i accept that as something against him. Many other speculators do no such thing, and simply disregard these facts, sometimes then arguing that other characters with the same cons have a better chance simply because of other factors. Or just because a character is "popular" means that they will without a doubt get in before another character. After logically reviewing the pros AND THE CONS, it is completely different than just with the pros.

Well theres my rant for the day i suppose lol

The whole point of the article is arguing the 'other" side.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

thats exactly why i posted it. there are people who, even still, refuse to acknowledge the opposite end of things even after being in this thread or others. I'm simply restating it in my own words

 

[Moon Monkey]

thats exactly why i posted it. there are people who, even still, refuse to acknowledge the opposite end of things even after being in this thread or others. I'm simply restating it in my own words

Oh, forgive me! I was under the impression that you were taking shots at me personally, (correct me if I'm wrong). For bringing up 1 side of initial "reality checks".

I was just replying back to re-affirm that this WAS a thread to bring up the other/counter points to common/popular reasoning for the inclusion of certain characters (with sources preferably).

sorry if there was any misunderstanding

 

[lobotheduck21]

Well thanks for making roster organization harder for me, Golden!

haha

Then it would have looked like this:

If I was Sakurai and has more time. haha

who ever edited doc and roy did a nice job

 

[Moon Monkey]

Indeed, but it's just the fact that he's the same plumber which is why i don't want him as a seperate character. I say Paper Mario as one of the possible alts for Mario, if more than one alt. for each character is even being consindered. We could have both Dr. Mario and Paper Mario.

I can see that being a viable option to represent the different Mario ALTs. Heck Paper Mario could even be a good Mr. Game&Watch ALT.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

I can see that being a viable option to represent the different Mario ALTs. Heck Paper Mario could even be a good Mr. Game&Watch ALT.

For some reason i see a Stanley The Bugman ALT. for G&W making more sense. Most likely because they share some similarity in body shape and the insecticide pump.

 

[Moon Monkey]

For some reason i see a Stanley The Bugman ALT. for G&W making more sense. Most likely because they share some similarity in body shape and the insecticide pump.

I only said Paper Mario would be a good Mr. Game&Watch ALT costume, because they are both 2D rather than 3D. But your suggestion is as good as mine.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Game & Watch could work with a 3D alternate costume because his model is in 3D with some kind of effect put on it. The same effect which makes the other characters 2D in his stage