8.0 Changes Discussion [Video with new Combos]

[Qualk]

List of changes:
-Ike's Dash attack - extended launch distance
-Ike's Down tilt - shortened launch distance
-Ike's Neutral air - extended launch distance and reduced the low damage range
-Ike's Forward air - reduced vulnerability, maintained launch distance and increased power
-Ike's Up-Special - made it so the first attack upward does not get neutralized, extended launch distance of the final attack, adjusted launch angle of final attack

Well we finally got some changes. I have to say initially I was disappointed and felt like it was a nerf overall but as I played more games I've changed my mind and actually think these changes are an overall buff for Ike.

-Dash Attack kills earlier, this is a straight up buff and adds one more thing people have to worry about when they're at kill %
-Down tilt should be able to combo into much more attacks and at higher percentages. I haven't had a chance to lab this too much but I would love to hear what new combos and confirms we have with this now
-N-air was unquestionably nerfed. At very high percents the front side of it will actually KO so there is that but otherwise it's a straight up nerf. It's much harder to hit frontside N-air into U-air for a confirm, and the backside of N-air also got a nerf.
-F-air got a huge buff, reduced vulnerability means we can use this in more matchups more often, it also hits harder which is amazing.
-Up-special got a big buff as well. I believe the first note about it concerns it "clanking" against another move with about equal power, so that's just a straight up buff. The launch distance buff also makes this a fairly reliable KO move at high percents

So my final thoughts are it really sucks that N-air got nerfed, HOWEVER, dash attack, d-tilt, f-air, and aether all got buffed so if they also kept N-air as is Ike would be unstoppable. N-air is still good, but we have a number of other good options to use in addition to N-air instead of having to rely almost solely on N-air. In the end these changes are going to force Ike players to have a more fluid style and weave a higher variety of attacks into their game instead of just going for N-air at all percents. This will create more unpredictable Ike players which will benefit us in the long run once we get used to the N-air nerfs.

Edit: Video just came out confirming my thoughts xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDZY6wRob34&feature=youtu.be

 

[san.]

Ike 8.0.0 changelist - Used Radiant Guts' post from Discord as a base.

Dtilt
•Made easier to combo
•KBG: 70 -> 55

Dash attack
•KBG: 78 -> 88

Dash attack (late)
•KBG: 100 -> 110

Fair
•FAF adjusted from 60 to 52
•Base damage adjusted from 11.5% to 13%
•KBG: 65 -> 60 (overall kills 4% earlier)

Nair
•Reduced kill confirm window
•KBG: 105 -> 130

Late Nair
•All 3 hitboxes
•Size: 4 -> 3

Up B
•Final hit adjusted to KO better
•angle: 60 -> 50
•kbg: 115 -> 155


Thoughts:
-Nair was undoubtedly nerfed, but it was enough of a side-grade where its interactions with newly buffed tools help Ike overall.
-I felt in the past that Ike had a lot of potential with platform tech chases since his attacks would both combo and cover all platform tech options. I now think that Ike has potential to have a fairly strong grounded tech chasing game with dtilt, dash attack, and lower % nair confirms. This makes fair, bthrow, and fthrow more of a threat from 60-90%.
-Ike's fair and dtilt changes have more subtle effects that will be observed over the next several months. Along with the aether change, we will find Ike to be stronger in some unexpected positions. For example, his edgeguarding game will be stronger with fair and aether buffs, but we are still figuring out the optimal options.
-Kill % ranges for various confirms will now need to be memorized and practiced individually. There's a lot to improve and experiment with.
-Underused confirms may now be more prominent. For example, Ike had some confirms involving uair->uair on platforms and grounded dair into aerials.

 

[Qualk]

You can double F-air off stage and make it back quite easily in a lot of situations now, that will catch a LOT of people off-guard until they get used to it.

 

[Arrei]

I feel like the changes shifted Ike away from wanting to jump all the time to land Nair, and made it so staying grounded is a potentially lucrative position as well. Ike was vulnerable to having his jump-ins stuffed out because he wanted to do landing Nair so much but opponents will need to think twice about trying that if he can throw his sword at them, catch their landing with dash attack, or outright kill sometimes with Nair's faster hitbox vs. Uair's for jumping while he stayed put. Aether's new kill capabilities also improve his defensive play by allowing him to armor through what would normally be shield pokes he wouldn't be able to punish due to his lack of OoS options, and take a stock for it. And Fair's endlag reduction feels like we can actually go offstage without putting Ike in a precarious predicament every time.

That said, Dtilt's hitstun still feels like his combo windows are a bit too narrow sometimes, especially when hitting with the tip, but I suppose they're wary of inadvertently giving him a true kill combo at death percents off of landing one of his quickest moves. Aether still has that weird property of not scooping opponents properly at certain altitudes as well, which could lead to some frustration.

I'd also like to just say... that kill screens from Aether are just so goofy! Ike's just kneeling there staring at his sword while the kill flare's got the enemy just stunned by nothing floating above him... makes me feel like they needed to add some kind of impact shockwave if they were going to grant it the kill power Ike's signature move deserved.

 

[Qualk]

I feel like the changes shifted Ike away from wanting to jump all the time to land Nair, and made it so staying grounded is a potentially lucrative position as well. Ike was vulnerable to having his jump-ins stuffed out because he wanted to do landing Nair so much but opponents will need to think twice about trying that if he can throw his sword at them, catch their landing with dash attack, or outright kill sometimes with Nair's faster hitbox vs. Uair's for jumping while he stayed put. Aether's new kill capabilities also improve his defensive play by allowing him to armor through what would normally be shield pokes he wouldn't be able to punish due to his lack of OoS options, and take a stock for it. And Fair's endlag reduction feels like we can actually go offstage without putting Ike in a precarious predicament every time.

That said, Dtilt's hitstun still feels like his combo windows are a bit too narrow sometimes, especially when hitting with the tip, but I suppose they're wary of inadvertently giving him a true kill combo at death percents off of landing one of his quickest moves. Aether still has that weird property of not scooping opponents properly at certain altitudes as well, which could lead to some frustration.

I'd also like to just say... that kill screens from Aether are just so goofy! Ike's just kneeling there staring at his sword while the kill flare's got the enemy just stunned by nothing floating above him... makes me feel like they needed to add some kind of impact shockwave if they were going to grant it the kill power Ike's signature move deserved.

LOL, completely agree. If you played Ike's games though, Aether is his most powerful move so as an avid Fire Emblem fan it actually feels incredible finally being able to kill people with it in Smash!

 

[Arrei]

Well, that just reminded me they never gave Aether that second hit it's supposed to have from the games. Or his sword beams. Think it would have been pretty cool to live in an alternate universe where Ike had the option to backflip and strike again after landing, and that was the attack that gained the kill potential!

 

[san.]

I started actually playing online the last 2 days, and it seems like I'm doing noticeably better. Part of that I feel is that the nair-centric approach from 7.0.0 and earlier was pretty difficult online since you had to quickly react to both the hit and the DI.

I killed with ftilt, uair, nair->uair, fair, aether, bair, and dash attack on a somewhat consistent basis. No one option dominated my kills, which was nice, and I didn't even use kills from dtilt much so far.

Still going into this without trying to be too hyped up over the changes. I can see a few new holes appearing in certain situations (ex. jumping at the opponent is fairly non-threatening after front nair->uair %s), but I feel many others have been resolved or lessened.

 

[Qualk]

I started actually playing online the last 2 days, and it seems like I'm doing noticeably better. Part of that I feel is that the nair-centric approach from 7.0.0 and earlier was pretty difficult online since you had to quickly react to both the hit and the DI.

I killed with ftilt, uair, nair->uair, fair, aether, bair, and dash attack on a somewhat consistent basis. No one option dominated my kills, which was nice, and I didn't even use kills from dtilt much so far.

Still going into this without trying to be too hyped up over the changes. I can see a few new holes appearing in certain situations (ex. jumping at the opponent is fairly non-threatening after front nair->uair %s), but I feel many others have been resolved or lessened.

I'm still working on incorporating D-tilt and Aether OOS myself, it's gonna feel really nice once we all get used to the new playstyle. Ike has gone from one of the most one-dimensional members of the cast to fairly unpredictable - especially when the opponent is at kill %.