Smash 3DS 3DS Demo thread General

[Joe73191]

Very disappointed with Smash 4 so far. A useless version of dash dancing, no momentum from dash to jump, some aerials have insane, absurd landing lag, a new anti-chain grab mechanic and the severe nerf of edge-guarding. This will all encourage very defensive, campy play that will not be exciting to watch.

It seems the only positive things I see are that you can not cancel out of hitstun, (though I have not confirmed this) the ledge magnetism is lower than Brawl and fall speed is slightly faster. (Oh and no tripping)

I am hearing some good things about landing lag, but there is no excuse why any aerial should have more than 30 frames of landing lag much less 35 like on falon's knee. 25 frames of landing lag (link's l-canceled d-air in melee) should be the max on even the slowest, and/or heaviest aerial. Yet I am hearing of 40 frames of lag on some moves. Bowser had l-canceled aerials with 17 and 20 frames of lag but most l-canceled landing lag was between 6 and 9 frames. 30 frames is too much not to mention 40, it is inexcusable.

 

[VhatDeHel]

After watching a lot, I feel as if the metagame of Smash 4 will be a lot more followup based rather than pure combos. You will get rewarded for accurately reacting to what your opponent does. Notice how every time you hit a Level 9 CPU, they airdodge once hitstun is done. I think the key is to get your opponent to do that, and then punishing based off of that. So I think it really benefits aggressive play but you have to think too, like even when you hit someone, you can't always rush to hit them again cause they may airdodge. You gotta wait a bit and then react appropriately. I'm also really liking the speed of the game. I was previously annoyed that momentum was not transferred into jumps when you run and then jump, but the ground speed is already so fast that it really seems like it was unneeded anyways. It looks simple to play but still rewarding, like it seems as if hitting people is very satisfying and quite frankly that is something I NEVER felt with Brawl, even in the beginning. It was just so floaty and people lived for so long that I felt like my hits meant nothing. I also really like that all these characters seem pretty good, hopefully Villager won't be really broken in teams.

So, yeah I'm pretty hyped haha

 

[TheZapp]

Any info on NA demo?

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Unofficial petition to outlaw two villagers when playing doubles. Bowling ball too stronk.

Also I knew they'd find a way to make Megaman not suck considering people weren't blown away by him during the invitational/e3. ^-^

 

[UltiMario]

So basically combos are like how we see them, it's just not what we think? Hitstun wears off but it's not fast enough to cancel the string, correct? However exceptions such as Megaman's up B can exploit this and use that "free frame" to escape.

This is exactly right.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I don't see what you're trying to say. The video this GIF is taken from is showing an EXAMPLE of a combo.

Maybe he can get out of hitstun for like one frame but that doesn't really mean anything. Even the best players are not going to be able to take advantage of such a tiny window (especially on the 3DS).

I still saw a quick way of piling on a lot of damage with virtually no chance of escape for the victim. That's a combo.

I'm only responding to this for clarification purposes as I don't like where this is going.

My point isn't that he "can" get out of hitstun, it's that he did.

Prior to slowing it down, the GIF was made at 30FPS. That means any "frames" you see are equal to twice that amount in-game. It's not one frame. In most cases you can see a few frames in the GIF, which is then doubled to several frames. It is a small window, yes, but it can potentially make a difference, especially given how fast airdodges are.

By your definition, edgeguarding is a combo because your opponent has reduced ability to fight you back and/or avoid your attacks whilst trying to recover, especially for characters with only one mid-air jump and a fast falling speed like Fox. To me, "combos" and "true combos" are synonymous and I think of them like this:
"For combos to be possible, attacks in a given game must put the enemy in a state where they cannot act (fighting games refer to this as "hitstun"). The state must also be vulnerable, and the attacker must recover from their attack fast enough to deliver another before the state ends.
Knocking an opponent down can end a combo due to the potentially gained invincibility, but not always. Some games have moves that can be used on downed opponents, and knock-downs due to effects of being dizzy actually set the opponent up for further punishment." -TVTropes
Now there are exceptions and grey areas to this, like tech-chasing. But a character's hitstun ending naturally is not an exception.

Some people, on the other hand, have a more lenient definition of what is a "combo". To them a "true combo" is what I quoted above whilst a regular "combo" can pretty much overlap with "string". A string is a series of hits that do not keep the opponent in a state where they cannot act, however the opponent does not hit the aggressor back regardless. "Combo breakers" allow you to manually get out of hitstun where you otherwise wouldn't have without using one. Brawl actually had combo breakers in the form of Hitstun Cancelling, which allowed you to get out of hitstun by performing an airdodge or aerial attack (but NOT a double jump) after a certain number of frames regardless of how long the stun should have lasted for.

Either way you look it at, ZeRo said that was a "true combo". It wasn't. It WAS very impressive, however.

I hope this clears up the point of my post for you.

 

[Hmmmm]

Did anyone else catch that Lucina isn't in the character list shown in the demo?

She's most certainly going to be in the final game but why wasn't she in that list? Even if you can't play as her.

 

[Kuraudo]

Did anyone else catch that Lucina isn't in the character list shown in the demo?

She's most certainly going to be in the final game but why wasn't she in that list? Even if you can't play as her.

She's an unlockable character, I believe.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Did anyone else catch that Lucina isn't in the character list shown in the demo?

She's most certainly going to be in the final game but why wasn't she in that list? Even if you can't play as her.

She's unlockable.

EDIT: 'd

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Very disappointed with Smash 4 so far. A useless version of dash dancing, no momentum from dash to jump, some aerials have insane, absurd landing lag, a new anti-chain grab mechanic and the severe nerf of edge-guarding. This will all encourage very defensive, campy play that will not be exciting to watch..

I'd say this encourages offensive play, because it makes the players not feel as scared to attack. Look at the Wolf/Dedede matchup in Brawl, or the Ness/Marth matchup in Brawl. For Ness and Wolf, any attack they land will more often than not, just net them 1 single hit. But what if Marth or Dedede grabs them? They build heaps of damage (infact, I think Marth's chaingrab on Ness is an infinite. Someone correct me if it isn't).

So with such unequal "rewards" for landing attacks for the characters involved, why would the chaingrab victim ever want to go near the other character? Blaster/PK Fire camp all day sounds much better in theory.

It looks simple to play but still rewarding, like it seems as if hitting people is very satisfying and quite frankly that is something I NEVER felt with Brawl, even in the beginning.

Yeah, I'm getting this impression too. The freeze frames on powerful attacks appear longer and the sound effects are much more intense than in Brawl IMO. Landing hard hits looks like it would feel so good. I might need a new change of underwear every time I hit someone with Robin's Levin Sword (which seems to have TONS of freeze frames).

Oh yeah, not to mention the way the camera zooms in when Little Mac connects with his KO Uppercut.

 

[TheZapp]

Any info on NA demo?

Anyone?

 

[TheCJBrine]

Anyone?

Well, Sakurai showing the Tips screen in English at least seems to confirm a demo outside of Japan....

 

[pickle962]

Anyone?

I imagine Nintendo TreeHouse will have something to say on this topic on Friday.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm only responding to this for clarification purposes as I don't like where this is going.

My point isn't that he "can" get out of hitstun, it's that he did.

Prior to slowing it down, the GIF was made at 30FPS. That means any "frames" you see are equal to twice that amount in-game. It's not one frame. In most cases you can see a few frames in the GIF, which is then doubled to several frames. It is a small window, yes, but it can potentially make a difference, especially given how fast airdodges are.

By your definition, edgeguarding is a combo because your opponent has reduced ability to fight you back and/or avoid your attacks whilst trying to recover, especially for characters with only one mid-air jump and a fast falling speed like Fox. To me, "combos" and "true combos" are synonymous and I think of them like this:
"For combos to be possible, attacks in a given game must put the enemy in a state where they cannot act (fighting games refer to this as "hitstun"). The state must also be vulnerable, and the attacker must recover from their attack fast enough to deliver another before the state ends.
Knocking an opponent down can end a combo due to the potentially gained invincibility, but not always. Some games have moves that can be used on downed opponents, and knock-downs due to effects of being dizzy actually set the opponent up for further punishment." -TVTropes
Now there are exceptions and grey areas to this, like tech-chasing. But a character's hitstun ending naturally is not an exception.

Some people, on the other hand, have a more lenient definition of what is a "combo". To them a "true combo" is what I quoted above whilst a regular "combo" can pretty much overlap with "string". A string is a series of hits that do not keep the opponent in a state where they cannot act, however the opponent does not hit the aggressor back regardless. "Combo breakers" allow you to manually get out of hitstun where you otherwise wouldn't have without using one. Brawl actually had combo breakers in the form of Hitstun Cancelling, which allowed you to get out of hitstun by performing an airdodge or aerial attack (but NOT a double jump) after a certain number of frames regardless of how long the stun should have lasted for.

Either way you look it at, ZeRo said that was a "true combo". It wasn't. It WAS very impressive, however.

I hope this clears up the point of my post for you.

I understand your post just fine, but I don't understand the "maybe next time" tone.

At the end of the day , I'm not concerned with making an arbitrary and tiny distinction like this and bigging it up like it's some huge disappointment. Even if there technically was a window for Link to make an input, none of his moves would come out fast enough to help his case. The CPU was actually inputting airdodges, as ZeRo said, and air dodges are supposed to make you invulnerable for a moment. Yet Mario was still able to keep him locked there, and get in 67%. That's still a combo as far as I'm concerned, since while the inputs on Link's end could be made, they were not fast enough to make any sort of difference.

And even without that, the character performing the combination here is Mario. An average speed character. Just wait until we start seeing the likes of Greninja doing stuff like this, where there will literally be combos where inputs for the victim become impossible.

And edgeguarding is not a combo by my definition, I didn't say a combo was "your opponent has reduced ability to retaliate", I said "they have virtually no ability to retaliate. The input may be possible but it's not quick enough to do anything". There's a huge difference there.

 

[Smallgenie549]

Well, Sakurai showing the Tips screen in English at least seems to confirmed a demo outside of Japan....

Um, and the fact that he says "For users outside of Japan, stay tuned for more news about the demo for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS."

 

[RADSheikah]

What I got from the thread:
Rush canceling is good
Link is good this time
Sakurai ****-teased the demo to NA/EU
Villager Teams are Banned
Villager is God.

 

[TheZapp]

I imagine Nintendo TreeHouse will have something to say on this topic on Friday.

Do you know what time est it is?

 

[TheCJBrine]

Um, and the fact that he says "For users outside of Japan, stay tuned for more news about the demo for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS."

Yeah, that too.

 

[Tingle's Waifu]

What time is it in Australia?

 

[TheZapp]

Wow its 4 o clock est, ill be at school

 

[micstar615]

I think what we need to focus on is if the "strings" can be acted out of or not, will attacks like MegaMan's ^B be the only way to escape strings? The lack of hitstun may not matter if it's impossible to counter the string fast enough, which may be the case because the tiny window of opportunity after hitstun doesn't seem too exploitable. This definitely needs testing.

 

[TheZapp]

Is there anyone who I could PM after the event to ask what I missed please?

 

[Smallgenie549]

Is there anyone who I could PM after the event to ask what I missed please?

I'm guessing there will probably a thread dedicated to the info from the stream. I'm sure someone will do that, because I'll be missing the stream too.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

What time is it in Australia?

If I worked it out right, the Smash Bros portion of the stream starts between 4am and 6am, depending on what Australian time zone one lives in, of course.

 

[Homsar3]

I'm going to guess we get it either tomorrow, or, if we're unlucky, Friday.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I'm going to guess we get it either tomorrow, or, if we're unlucky, Friday.

I highly doubt we'd get it that soon. The rumor is the 19th and even that seems early but it's at least reasonable.

 

[TheZapp]

I'm going to guess we get it either tomorrow, or, if we're unlucky, Friday.

Id love for 2morro, but im counting on friday

 

[Bortverde]

We have the following possibilities
Demo is launched tomorrow when eshop updates(not a good idea, have to study for test)
demo is launched after treehuse stream
Demo is launched a few days before the full game
oh, or september 19th

 

[PikaSamus]

Demo is launched tomorrow when eshop updates(not a good idea, have to study for test)

So since you have to study, you think it's a bad idea for Nintendo to release the demo tomorrow?

 

[Homsar3]

I highly doubt we'd get it that soon. The rumor is the 19th and even that seems early but it's at least reasonable.

Well, it appears to be translated already, and the only reason it wouldn't have come out yesterday/today/whenever the JPN demo came out, was because the e-shop doesn't update every day to my understanding.

 

[Bortverde]

So since you have to study, you think it's a bad idea for Nintendo to release the demo tomorrow?

Only for me actually
But would be great the same way :D

 

[JCOnyx]

I believe I just saw MegaMan use a grab while having leaf shield out in Keitaro's stream. Can anyone test to confirm?

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

So basically, true combos do not necessarily exist, but the window is too small for a player to react and act out of one? @ UltiMario

If so, this is very interesting. And if a player does manage to act out of a combo using airdodge, it can still be punished. It looks you're going to have to think strategically about when you perform an attack.

 

[micstar615]

I don't even think there's enough time during the "window" to even perform an air dodge, at least not every time, depending on how quickly the string can be followed up. But yes, air dodges are very laggy so they're quite punishable.

 

[itsaxelol]

I believe I just saw MegaMan use a grab while having leaf shield out in Keitaro's stream. Can anyone test to confirm?

you can walk, jump, grab, or shoot the shield out

 

[JCOnyx]

you can walk, jump, grab, or shoot the shield out

Thanks for the info, I believe I read somewhere that he can also throw already held items. TBH I think that could be all he needs since he has an extremely low and fast SHFF, he could cross up the opponent with the leaf shield activated and go for a grab. Is it possible to exhaust all the leafs crossing the opponent up at the right time and then you're free to use another move again? I just think there is more utility to this move that people realize.

More for me to discover when I finally get my hands on the game I suppose.

 

[TheOthin]

I don't even think there's enough time during the "window" to even perform an air dodge, at least not every time, depending on how quickly the string can be followed up. But yes, air dodges are very laggy so they're quite punishable.

If there's a gap in the hitstun, but not long enough for it to actually be possible to escape a properly executed combo, the hitstun gap can't really be considered an obstacle to it being a true combo, right?

 

[micstar615]

If there's a gap in the hitstun, but not long enough for it to actually be possible to escape a properly executed combo, the hitstun gap can't really be considered an obstacle to it being a true combo, right?

I wouldn't think it would be an obstacle but it needs testing, we already know that Megaman's ^B can be used to escape these combos, the question is, is it the only move/way? Right now, it doesn't seem like there's much else that can be used to escape these combos though but, like I said earlier, it'll need testing.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I wouldn't think it would be an obstacle but it needs testing, we already know that Megaman's ^B can be used to escape these combos, the question is, is it the only move/way? Right now, it doesn't seem like there's much else that can be used to escape these combos though but it'll need testing.

What about characters that have aerial attacks with low start up? If a "combo" takes the opponent into the air, would a character who has very low start up be able to quickly act out and attack?

 

[micstar615]

What about characters that have aerial attacks with low start up? If a "combo" takes the opponent into the air, would a character who has very low start up be able to quickly act out and attack?

I would again say that these kinds of things need testing, but from what it seems, the opportunity in which they have to attack is very small, it seems only VERY quick attacks like MegaMan's ^B can be used to escape (other examples may include Sonic and Mr. G&W's ^B) if there are aerials that are as instantaneous as those attacks, then yes they may be used to escape, but the thing is, I don't think there are any attacks that are as fast as those ^Bs I mentioned? Those attacks are more for upward mobility anyway, most aerials don't have that speed iirc.