3 months of practice and no results

[mecawe]

I've been practicing techniques with fox for about 3 months now and my noob brother still beats me. He has no idea of advanced techniques, and this brother still beats me. You can't imagine how it pisses me off... And he is proud...

He keeps doing dash attacks, grabbing me all the time, running everywhere and dash attacking, doing Fsmash all the time... and I just don't know what to do against him.

He pick wolf and I pick fox.
-He never jumps
-He dash attack/Fsmash all the time
-When I shffl into him he always blocks it and grabs me...
-When he comes at me I don't know if he'll grab me or dash attack, so if I shield I'm no sure if I'm safe
-When I land from an aerial, I don't have the time for shining, he already grabbed me
-He keeps staying on the ledge when I spawn
-He rolls All the time

This is pretty much the same scenario every game...

Any advice on beating him?

 

[mYzeALot]

If he just dash attacks and grabs, then dash away from him as he is coming at you. After he attacks, run back at him and either grab him and up throw for a combo, upsmash, or aerial into shine. Both characters combo each other very well, so if you can land the first hit youre looking good.

 

[DrinkingFood]

^what he said
dash dance until he approaches, then punish
spam SHDLs or just SHLs if he doesn't approach, the slow racking of damage will make him want to
don't forget that full hopping up to platforms then quickly wavelanding off provides smash's analog to airdashing that you can use for a tricky approach if he's in the right position

 

[NeonApophis]

-When I shffl into him he always blocks it and grabs me...

-When I land from an aerial, I don't have the time for shining, he already grabbed me

You're doing your aerial too early or your shine too late, or not L canceling the aerial. If you time your aerial correctly it is not possible to shield grab Fox before he can shine.

-When he comes at me I don't know if he'll grab me or dash attack, so if I shield I'm no sure if I'm safe

If those are literally the only two things he does and he doesn't dash dance or do anything tricky, you can just spot dodge to protect against both of those.

-He keeps staying on the ledge when I spawn

Go shine him off the ledge?

Learning advanced techniques does not automatically make you good. It sounds like you really need to work on your strategic thinking if you have trouble with someone who is so predictably bad.

 

[Ogopogo]

Baiting and punishing is huge against people like this. Work on your fundamentals, think through each action, etc. I am troubled by a brother similar to yours, but smarter.

 

[Generically Epic]

Practice does not make perfect. Practice reinforces habits. Even if you have every technique perfectly mastered, if someone can read you you're done.

 

[Chzrm3]

The first step is to stop thinking of him as a bad player because he isn't using AT's, and acknowledge that he is a better player than you. Being able to wavedash means nothing if you run out of lives. : P Take a deep breath, calm down, and learn from him. He may not be doing anything fancy, but his grasp of the basics of the game are clearly much stronger than yours. He understands when you're vulnerable and seems to be able to exploit that reliably - that's an understanding that you need to develop, or you'll never get better as a player.

Outside of that, everything else that people have said is spot on. The biggest mistake that learning players seem to make is they pick a random advanced technique and start trying to master it, while the rest of their gameplay stagnates. Honestly, if you spend 3 months focusing purely on spacing and punishes, you'll improve significantly.

 

[Fortress]

Dash Attacks, meet Crouch Cancelling.

 

[DrinkingFood]

but crouch canceling meets grabs
just DD yo

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you might be expecting to automatically beat him/be an overall better player than him because of "advanced techniques". Technical skill is important, obviously. But there is a LOT of technical stuff in this game, and if you've been practicing with Fox for 3 months, you probably have only scratched the surface. Furthermore, technical skill is not what determines the match. It helps. But it doesn't affect the mental game, which is the most important thing.

It sounds like your brother knows your play style and what to do in order to beat you, but you haven't been able to do the same. You seem to know how he plays, given that you listed what he does in matches. Use what you know. Find a way to punish his bad habits. Get inside his head. If you understand how he plays, then you can avoid getting hit by the stupid stuff that he does.

If you've been playing for a while, then I'm sure you already know this, but in case you don't: Up Smash with Fox will work wonders. So will Up Throw --> Up Air at higher percents.

 

[mecawe]

Thanks for these answers. Also, a big part of my frustration comes from the fact I practice and he doesn't

I am able to enter in the ''psychic'' part of the game, but I feel like I'm not totally there because I'm still focusing on technical things I don't do very well..
In other words, I am able (I already done it a few times) to let the ''smash spirit'' enter in my head and I become that Fox. But it doesn't happen all the time.

For example, I try to drill shine him a lot, he always grabs me, but now I know it can be done I try but I fail

I'll meditate on your answers, I appreciate <

edit: Ah, I found the words. He is more like a ''feeling'' player, and I'm more like a ''I do things because they need to be done'' player.

 

[falloutofcar]

no dude i TOTALLY kno how you feel ...i too have a friend that uses wolf and what i can tell you is that wolf is a BROKEN CHARATER!!! .......his fsmash hit box it WAYYY to big expecally when he uses it to ledge guard. it goes UNDER THE FREAKING STAGE!! theres no point in getting frustrated because all in all your the one that actually progressing in skill while he just spams Up smash which for wolf is basicly fsmash, Bsmash and Up smash all in one....you"ll eventually get better then him you just gotta keep learning from your mistakes and dont get discouraged... it took me 2 months to actually begin to beat him... but now i can zero to death him if he makes one mistake.... so just keep pratcing your tech game, SHFFL's and wavedash/wavelands and most of all dont get hit .....i main captian falcon btw

 

[HyperrCrow]

For example, I try to drill shine him a lot, he always grabs me, but now I know it can be done I try but I fail

You're not L-cancelling properly, as a Fox main in Melee I would know.
I shared your frustration when I first started using Fox competitively. I would practice these techniques for hours and my friends who never took the game serious would punish my aerials because I THOUGHT that I was L-cancelling properly when I wasn't. Once I got the timing down and was able to shine straight from the L-cancel I was golden.
Believe me when I say that 3 months isn't near enough time to suddenly get good at smash. You can learn all the AT's, but knowing when to use them is the hard part which is why you have to play other people a lot.
It's been 8 months since I started playing competitive smash and I've improved exponentially by playing others in my school who take the game as serious as I do. Before I couldn't even beat anyone in my university, now I'm probably among the top 10 players there out of like 30.

But disregarding everything I've said, just put more time into your Fox and it'll pay off. If all goes to hell just do what I did, I learned to pick up on peoples bad habits and exploit them. That helped me a lot as well. It isn't all about tech skill, you need some strategy in there too.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Thanks for these answers. Also, a big part of my frustration comes from the fact I practice and he doesn't

I am able to mind game and enter the ''psychic'' part of the game, but I feel like I'm not totally there because I'm still focusing on technical things I don't do very well..

For example, I try to drill shine him a lot, he always grabs me, but now I know it can be done I try but I fail

I'll meditate on your answers, I appreciate

Don't get discouraged. The title of your thread implies that you feel like your 3 months of practice has given you no results. This isn't true. You're making progress. Becoming amazing at this game takes time, focus, and hard work.

I am by no means an expert. In fact, I'm pretty low on the spectrum. But here is the best advice that I can give to you:
-Don't fret too much about technical skill. As you practice, these techniques will develop over time. You should be constantly learning and perfecting new stuff, but this is not your biggest priority. Again, the mental game is what matters most.
-Play with people that are better than you. Play your brother until you can consistently beat him. Find other, better opponents to play as you improve. Playing the CPU does not develop your grasp of the mental aspect of the game.
-Watch pro matches. Often. Seriously. If you are a Fox main, then watch some videos of some of the best Fox players in Melee, such as Mango, Mew2King, SFAT, Leffen, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Toph, Chillin, Lucky, Cyrain, Jman, to name just a few. Honestly, watching the top players play and picking up on what they're doing is really helpful.

Also, I should add: If possible, joining a community or going to tournaments will open up a whole new world of progress.

 

[Rizner]

He keeps doing dash attacks, grabbing me all the time, running everywhere and dash attacking, doing Fsmash all the time... and I just don't know what to do against that mother****ing gay.

-He never jumps
-He dash attack/Fsmash all the ****ing time
-When I shffl into him he always blocks it and grabs me...
-When he comes at me I don't know if he'll grab me or dash attack, so if I shield I'm no sure if I'm safe
-When I land from an aerial, I don't have the time for shining, he already grabbed me
-He keeps staying on the ledge when I spawn
-He rolls All the time

This is pretty much the same scenario every game...

From this, it seems that he's just a better overall player although less technical. Work more on your reads and not being as predictable. It doesn't matter if you know how to do the most technical thing possible if you do it every single time -- you'll just get punished for it every single time. Work on baiting out his rolls and punishing them, on jumping towards him to make him think you'll attack, then land and either grab or stay out of range and punish a grab he might throw out, spot dodge or block a dash attack, spot dodge his grabs, and just pay more attention to what he's doing and less to the things you think you need to do for a cookie-cutter win.

 

[Paradoxium]

I was in the exact position your in now, and it was with my brother who didn't do any advanced techniques. You can probably wreck other people, your brother just has you figured out. I would get frustrated as well, and I didn't know what to do. So than I started recording the matches and started seeing the flaws in my gameplay, I was way to predictable. Your probably better than your brother, he just has you figured out.

 

[MVP]

The first step is to stop thinking of him as a bad player because he isn't using AT's, and acknowledge that he is a better player than you. Being able to wavedash means nothing if you run out of lives. : P Take a deep breath, calm down, and learn from him. He may not be doing anything fancy, but his grasp of the basics of the game are clearly much stronger than yours. He understands when you're vulnerable and seems to be able to exploit that reliably - that's an understanding that you need to develop, or you'll never get better as a player.

Outside of that, everything else that people have said is spot on. The biggest mistake that learning players seem to make is they pick a random advanced technique and start trying to master it, while the rest of their gameplay stagnates. Honestly, if you spend 3 months focusing purely on spacing and punishes, you'll improve significantly.

this times 10

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I can sympathize to some level, my brother was my main "training partner" when I was first getting into AT's in Melee, but he just played Marth and got really good at shield grabbing, outspacing with grab and fsmash, reading rolls with fsmash, throw DI mixups into fsmash, edgeguarding bad recoveries with... fsmash, and "comboing" with uthrow->fair->fair; all instead of learning Wavedashing and the other "advanced" combo/movement-based techniques, which I was picking up with Roy and (insert random backup high-tier) at the time. As much as I'd tell myself that this was all "dumb Marth stuff," I would regularly get trounced. Luckily, people like my brother, and apparently a lot of other brothers, are actually great practice opportunities in disguise when you're first starting out. They'll see through a lot of the unnecessary movement and let you know exactly where the leaks are in your strategy by attacking them as soon as they show. Keep trying to use your AT's, even if it costs you the game, just pay very close attention to when they work or when they don't work. You will eventually start to trim the fat from your playstyle, leaving the good parts to build upon with all that tech skill.

My best specific advice is: Fox's dashdance is absolutely super. Learn how to use it now without getting clipped by dash attacks or Fsmash on the retreat. Then start working on making the most of all those DD->grabs you'll be getting. This will be far more important against predictable opponents, and arguably on unpredictable opponents as well.

To this day, I still have a rough time beating my brother in a Roy v. Marth matchup. He has learned to fear my pocket-Sheik though.
Edit:
This is the coming era of Project M Roy. Who cares about pocket-Sheiks?
My revenge is nigh.

 

[Rikana]

That's completely normal. I was in that phase too. I used to play casually and was the best among my group of friends.I found out about advance techniques eventually and practiced it on my own time. I started applying it to our casual sessions and lost to stupid things that I wouldn't have fallen for previously. Don't let it get to your head. Keep applying the advance techniques and you'll eventually learn how to use them properly. In the time being, expect that you'll be trash. You'll probably be worse than all the people you played; but, once you get the hang of it and apply it in game, you'll see a big gap between skills.

In other words. You're going to suck and don't let that bother you. Just keep applying what you learned.

 

[Giygacoal]

He keeps doing dash attacks, grabbing me all the time, running everywhere and dash attacking, doing Fsmash all the time... and I just don't know what to do against that mother****ing gay.

Any advice on ****** his muther****ing gay ***?

>Use **** and gay as slurs

Some people...

 

[DrinkingFood]

>caring about language
>not coloring your meme-arrows green
shiggy

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

>Use **** and gay as slurs

Some people...

I know right.
Isn't it just...tearing you apart...*giggle*

 

[DrinkingFood]

You really forced that joke man
but truth be told he was asking for it

 

[Deleted member]

stop using ATs and stop practicing

have fun when you play since you're obviously not atm

see what changes

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

He's using Fox, Falco or Wolf? And he doesn't know any AT's? Meta Knight is your savior lol.
And 3 months of Fox does not equal good Fox.

 

[Smo]

It's not cool to call people you're angry with ‘gay’, nor is it cool to joke about ‘******’ them. There's a drive in the Smash community to make Smash more welcoming to LGBT and women, and using those words is alienating.

But that aside, if I were you, I'd try a different character next time you play. Not as a permanent thing, but to clear your head. You've clearly developed loads of bad habits based on what you think you ought to be doing, and haven't developed a good mindset from the ground up. Playing a new character for a couple of sessions will force you to forget all the l33t f0x skillz you have been so keen to learn, and just focus on the fundamentals of good Smash play — being unpredictable, reading your opponent, spacing your attacks well, stage control etc. Learning ATs doesn't make you a good player, but they are tools for a good player to use. Plus, you'll have fun trying a new character after weeks of frustration with Fox.

For the longest time, I was in your position. I knew the moves, but I still lost a lot. Now I'm still not a pro by a long chalk, but I'm in a position where I can actually improve because my mindset has changed from learning the moves to learning how to apply the moves and play the mindgames.

At the moment, your brother plays the way he does because he knows it works against you. If it's working, he's playing smart enough. Just diving in with a shffl aerial will get you shield grabbed. shffl isn't some magic trick to make your attacks always safe, just to make them safer. Bait him into using his dash-attack or Fsmash (I've not really played any Wolfs so I don't know how hard this is), and then punish it with a shffl aerial if you choose. Do a shffl aerial where you know he is about to roll. Don't just dive in blindly. Alternatively, does shield grabbing not work on wolf's Fsmash?

When you're playing the game, you shouldn't be thinking about your techs. Your techs need to be part of your toolkit. You need to be thinking about your opponent, and your position.

 

[mecawe]

Sorry for the bad words, I was upset when I wrote the post. Removed them

 

[Saito]

>caring about language
>not coloring your meme-arrows green
shiggy

diggy doo.

 

[mecawe]

no dude i TOTALLY kno how you feel ...i too have a friend that uses wolf and what i can tell you is that wolf is a BROKEN CHARATER!!! .......his fsmash hit box it WAYYY to big expecally when he uses it to ledge guard. it goes UNDER THE FREAKING STAGE!! theres no point in getting frustrated because all in all your the one that actually progressing in skill while he just spams Up smash which for wolf is basicly fsmash, Bsmash and Up smash all in one....you"ll eventually get better then him you just gotta keep learning from your mistakes and dont get discouraged... it took me 2 months to actually begin to beat him... but now i can zero to death him if he makes one mistake.... so just keep pratcing your tech game, SHFFL's and wavedash/wavelands and most of all dont get hit .....i main captian falcon btw

I lol'd SO HARD

Don't get discouraged. The title of your thread implies that you feel like your 3 months of practice has given you no results. This isn't true. You're making progress. Becoming amazing at this game takes time, focus, and hard work.

I am by no means an expert. In fact, I'm pretty low on the spectrum. But here is the best advice that I can give to you:
-Don't fret too much about technical skill. As you practice, these techniques will develop over time. You should be constantly learning and perfecting new stuff, but this is not your biggest priority. Again, the mental game is what matters most.
-Play with people that are better than you. Play your brother until you can consistently beat him. Find other, better opponents to play as you improve. Playing the CPU does not develop your grasp of the mental aspect of the game.
-Watch pro matches. Often. Seriously. If you are a Fox main, then watch some videos of some of the best Fox players in Melee, such as Mango, Mew2King, SFAT, Leffen, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Toph, Chillin, Lucky, Cyrain, Jman, to name just a few. Honestly, watching the top players play and picking up on what they're doing is really helpful.

Also, I should add: If possible, joining a community or going to tournaments will open up a whole new world of progress.

There is a very well organized smash community near my home, but I think I need to practice before going there because there is a bunch of good players and I don't think they'll appreciate my presence

 

[Saito]

There is a very well organized smash community near my home, but I think I need to practice before going there because there is a bunch of good players and I don't think they'll appreciate my presence

Use this.

It will assist you.

 

[mecawe]

Use this.

It will assist you.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/images/smileys/seriousthankyou.gif

 

[HyperrCrow]

Alternatively, does shield grabbing not work on wolf's Fsmash?

It's hard to shield grab or punish a Wolf F-smash because it has a lot of shield pushback.
You can thank Brawl mechanics for that.

 

[Smo]

It's hard to shield grab or punish a Wolf F-smash because it has a lot of shield pushback.
You can thank Brawl mechanics for that.

Fair enough, as I said, I've little to no experience against Wolf.

 

[mecawe]

It's hard to shield grab or punish a Wolf F-smash because it has a lot of shield pushback.
You can thank Brawl mechanics for that.

I don't remember exactly if it's Fsmash, but sometimes I shield an attack and he just goes behind me

 

[HyperrCrow]

I don't remember exactly if it's Fsmash, but sometimes I shield an attack and he just goes behind me

Definitely sounds like F-smash.

 

[MLGF]

It's important to remember, that despite the emphasis on the subject, Melee/M won't allow you to be magically good with tech skill. One has to remember, back in the early Melee Meta, they only vaguely understood the things that only semi-competitive players know/can apply. Despite that, it's likely that people like Azen or Ken could still wipe the floor with the majority of us not because of tech skill, but because they're just that good.

Knowing how these techs function is great. Don't rely on them so much that you forget other options, play the matchup. Acknowledge the person and figure out a strategy. The biggest problem you have is your mindset, instead of thinking "I know how he plays, I can win." you're thinking "I know things he doesn't, I can win.", the latter makes you arrogant and allows you to mess up easily, while the former lets you play intelligently.

Personally, I was there, I remember practicing techs so much that when I got on wifi and started playing others, I got my happy little ass beat. I initially blamed it on my inability to use L-cancels and such online, but eventually I acknowledged these people were better and went on to fix my approach and style.

So hey, being good at this tech stuff is great, I love doing Luigi Wavedashes with friends and they just go "Dude, what are you doing?", but you have to learn how to approach and punish before those things can benefit you.

 

[Giygacoal]

I know right.
Isn't it just...tearing you apart...*giggle*

Thatz the eyedeeuh!

 

[LydianAlchemist]

Practice does not make perfect. Practice reinforces habits. Even if you have every technique perfectly mastered, if someone can read you you're done.

http://youtu.be/VnwezquMfyA?t=15m28s
sorry couldn't resist

 

[Yoki]

For example, I try to drill shine him a lot, he always grabs me, but now I know it can be done I try but I fail

[...]

edit: Ah, I found the words. He is more like a ''feeling'' player, and I'm more like a ''I do things because they need to be done'' player.

It sounds like you're thinking too much (or at least, not the right way). L-Canceling aside, advanced techs are nothing more than additional options, they're not inherently better than everything else a character can do. The point of learning tech skills is to have more options, and if when fighting, you think "I'm going to drill shine him like I learned)" more than half a second in advance, you're just pigeonholing yourself into that single option. Your brother beats you with only dash attacks, smashes, shielding, rolling and grabbing because five is better than one. When you rush him with one specific option in mind (be it a drill shine or something else), he has no trouble reading you and fighting back with a good answer.

You made the common mistake of learning advanced techs before learning how to fight, and my best advice would be to either try to just forget about advanced stuff like drill shines (L-canceling is still fine), or just to try fighting him with another character if 3 months of misdirected training gave you too many bad habits. The latter is probably the best option, and not Wolf, Falco, Lucas or Ness, but a character without fancy tech skills to make sure you learn the basics against an actual human opponent, not in training mode.

 

[mecawe]

So I lost my enemy (brother) because he was too frustrated to loose almost every game He doesn't want to play against me anymore