3.02 Nair vs 3.5 Nair- Which is better?

PME

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#2
This change is part of the reason why I'm dropping Toon Link, that should speak for itself. Young Link's nair's active hitbox is so good that it's sad to see it go.
 

White Wolf

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#3
Oh wow. I was kind of split on the nair to begin with, but I guess the compromise for one of the best sex kicks in the game to Brawl's modified with with 2 hits split between about 20 damage. I don't hate it, but I still feel the old nair was better. Are there any other reasons you are dropping him?
 

Mr. S

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#4
I don't mind 3.5 nair. Having a sex kick was awesome, but this new nair actually isn't that bad. It has different uses and followups, but I enjoy it. I'm not sure which I like more, to be honest.
 

G13_Flux

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#7
@ Lunchables Lunchables im curious to hear your reasoning??

i feel that its the kind of move you will be happy with once youre used to it. atm im having an intersting time transitioning since so much of TLs game was based off of his sex kick nair. i just need to re adapt my playstyle. it seems to be a good defensive move, while still at least offering a quick frontal approach aerial with some combo potential. the fact that it hits both sides i feel will help make up for the utility that an uncharged grounded up b had with its very safe slide distance in 3.02. i can see it being useful in covering platform techs too.

the only thing that makes me question it at first is how useful the back slice will be. TL already has great coverage with his bair, so will the backslice of nair prove to be a useful DI mixup in combos? the front slice offers better disjoint than his previous nair which obviously has its uses in approaching from the front, and i can see the back slice being very useful in cross ups too since it can hit with both slices on shield.

the biggest thing i want to find out is if this new nair was implemented because the felt that his old nair was too strong in his tool kit, or if they just felt that this nair worked better in his moveset to create a character that allows for more creativity. its probably the later, but theres much experimenting to do before i can really judge i guess.
 

Jolteon

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#8
the biggest thing i want to find out is if this new nair was implemented because the felt that his old nair was too strong in his tool kit, or if they just felt that this nair worked better in his moveset to create a character that allows for more creativity. its probably the later, but theres much experimenting to do before i can really judge i guess.
There was no balance concern for changing TL's nair (imo his new Nair is much better anyway), it was a design change.
 
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Ridel

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#9
I think it is nice and differentiates him from Link more so as you can not approach with a sex kick anymore, it just takes some getting used to. I think people are over reacting to this change and are dropping him just for one move.
 

Mr. S

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#10
After playing around with Toon Link a little more, I definitely like the new nair more. Sure, it makes nair OoS not quite as good, but this new nair does good damage and is mad good for his combo game.
 

G13_Flux

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#11
^ I think its plenty fine OOS. i tested in debug mode, it comes out on frame 5, which is one frame slower than his old nair, which was frame 4. however, this one covers both sides better, can be autocanceled, and actually has a good amount of range in front of him. i guess the only real disadvantage there is the one frame, but i mean thats still an 8 frame OOS option which is pretty damn solid, especially for its coverage.

im definitely warming up to his nair a lot now though. it was hard at first since i was so used to his old nair, but now i can kinda see why it was removed. it was a quick utility move that could be used in alot of situations, but it really only shined defensively, and was therefore slightly redundant in his toolkit. there were no offensive properties about it that made it spectacular, as its combo potential was present but not really game breaking, and its kill potential was present, but other moves outshined it out of combos, and you would really only garner a kill from it while being defensive.

the new one gives him a better offensive threat, and since TL has other good defensive tools in his kit, the defensive prowess of the move lost in the transition doesnt become as sorely missed. now we have a quick disjointed front facing approach option that can be used safely on shield and still gives some combo potential.
 

Boomhound

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#12
I assume it was changed for the Brawl fans rather than any balance buff/nerf reason.
'Course this one move change won't affect his play-style too much, but I LOVED his old melee-esque Nair and its lingering hit-box...
 

JRad

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#13
I like it a lot since it looks cool and I don't really thing it is much of a nerf as much as just a rework. I find that I am actually more mobile with this nair and I think it allows for really good cross ups while still eating spot dodges. Since it isn't a sex kick I also find it better for sending people off stage and it does have some combo potential.
 

Mr. S

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#14
^ I think its plenty fine OOS. i tested in debug mode, it comes out on frame 5, which is one frame slower than his old nair, which was frame 4. however, this one covers both sides better, can be autocanceled, and actually has a good amount of range in front of him. i guess the only real disadvantage there is the one frame, but i mean thats still an 8 frame OOS option which is pretty damn solid, especially for its coverage.
Yeah, my choice of words was awful. It's not "worse" OoS, per se, but it's definitely different. Sex kick nairs are super good though. This just has some really different followups. I'm a little biased still because I liked 3.02's nair and am still getting used to having this new nair, but I still love this new nair.

The best part of it is how good it is for Tink's combo game.
 

steakhouse

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#15
New nair is deffinetly better. SHFFL nair is absolutely crazy, a disjointed 4 (?) frame circular attack that shield pressures better, has as little ending lag as back air and leaves less room for counterplay is a no-brainer for me. If you hit nair on a shield in 3.0 you were bound to get punished, which isn't really the case in 3.5. If you miss the ability to "envelop" Toon Link into a hitbox, use your dair, upair and boomer more.

Also a generally better OOS option and combo move due to circular hitbox and less ending lag. Essentialy it's a move as fast as backair in front of you. How anyone thinks this is a bad change baffles me.
 

Merfect

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#16
When I started playing P:M 2.0, I hated the fact that they got rid of Toon Link's Brawl Nair and made him less unique. Now they've brought it back and I'm considering playing as him again.
Toon Link shouldn't be kicking anyone with those tiny feet anyways.
 

B.W.

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#17
New N-Air comes out in 5 frames (1 frame slower than old N-Air, whoopee dee doo) and has the same amount of lag when you miss the L-Cancel and when you get the L-Cancel. The front hitbox is only out for frames 5-6 and the back hitbox 12-14. I think the damage is around the same, but I'm not sure. 3.5 N-Air does have 3 frames earlier IASA than 3.0 N-Air, but again whoopee dee doo.

3.0 N-Air was actually better OoS because it created a wall. Whiffing the initial hit meant that you still had protection. 3.0 N-Air was also better for beating out certain projectiles because it beat most of them for the duration of the move (yes even the weak hit). Mario's Fireballs, Samus Missiles (homing and super, ice or fire), even 3.0 Link's boomerang. You can still beat these things out I think with 3.5 N-Air, because it's disjointed, but you have to be extra precise. Not complaining about needing precision but that still makes it technically worse than 3.0 N-Air in that regard.

3.0 N-Air also had usefulness edge guarding. Drop off edge > N-Air had a lasting hitbox, creating a wall for opponents to get through. Also you could Double Jump N-Air and create that same wall, but it wouldn't fall. 3.5 N-Air can still do these edge guards but they take more precision. Instead of making a wall you have to time your attack to make sure it hits. Whiffing is a lot more of a possibility. It's a little more like edgeguarding with a faster F-Air now.

Also because 3.5 N-Air lacks a lingering hitbox, and also doesn't have a hitbox where T.Link's body is, you don't have anything to fall and protect the bottom of yourself with except for D-Air. But thanks to how unsafe D-Air is you can be put into a lot of trouble for using it.

One thing 3.5 N-Air does have though is a pretty nice double hit crossup on shields. As much as I dislike 3.5 N-Air as a whole the shield pressure you can do with it combined with your projectiles is very real.
 
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steakhouse

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#18
Paragraph 1 -> New n-air isn't as commited if you hit shield which is a much more real problem than whiffing as getting punished for whiffing is legit, much more than hitting a shied. In any case a 4-frame punish windows isn't as much much of a big deal and the fact that new nair is disjointed clearly makes up for how slower it is, which is one frame, or about 17 milliseconds.

Paragraph 2 -> Being able to clank out projectiles from a long lingering hitbox was too strong, as you can already reliably do that with super fast moves (ftilt, utilt, jab), projectiles (bow, bombs, boomer), passive shield or normal shield ; this change rewards precision as opposed to brainless SHFFLing. It's technicaly worse as you say, but a better game design choice.

Paragraph 3 -> TL is still one of the best offstage edgeguarders due to the sheer quantity of angles from projectiles (angled boomer, different bow charges, bomb throwing, dropping, smash throwing) or yourself (dair lingers but is risky, up-B lingers less long but doesn't hurt as much if badly timed), plus aerial chasing in any direction with AGT fair/up-B

all in all, 3.5 nair is 17 milliseconds longer to come out but is disjointed, making it a better SHFFL option (pretty much impossible to non-tether grab, which was not the case at all with 3.0) ; it rewards precision and punishes sloppiness in multiple ways (precise clanking, slightly more punishable if whiffed but harder to shieldgrab due to double hit that is guaranteed with precise positioning) and is a more original move as opposed to the boring neutral air that every single character had in Smash 64. It also sticks better with TL's design as a whole. Besides, old nair was a little too good and was the go-to option in too many situation. New nair requires better usage of your entire arsenal, and that's what matters the most.
 

B.W.

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#19
The 1 frame thing is why I said whoopee dee doo. It's not that big a deal.

But to say it's not as committed... If you do the move and you whiff or hit a shield they're the same amount of frames when SHFFL'd. I'm pretty sure shield advantage for 3.0 N-Air is the same as 3.5 N-Air, so the time frame for punishing them is the same.

As for the rest of the whole "it's better due to disjoints." F-Air is disjointed and it's not that slow either. Pretty sure Lunchables even said he rarely used Sex Kick N-Air to combo, and instead would just combo people forward with F-Air in 3.0 instead because it does more damage. Start the SHFFL chain with N-Air and use F-Air after the first N-Air. Works with 3.5 N-Air but it worked with 3.0 N-Air too. It functions pretty much the same.

I only brought up the projectile point because the topic was asking "which is better" so I spoke up. Though I don't know if I agree with 3.0 N-Air being too strong, because it wasn't too strong in 3.0 and his kit was better in 3.0 but we actually won't ever really know because it's not in the game. If you ask me I think the change was made more because a lot of people thought Toon Link's legs looked funny when he used a sex kick. And they did. Everytime you pressed the A button in the air his legs do what the Grinch's heart does and grows three sizes that day.

Really the two moves are very very similar as far as their stats go, but 3.0 N-Air's lingering hitboxes gave it much more utility over 3.5 N-air's front and back hitbox, especially when you have a fairly fast, more active, disjointed F-Air that does the front hitbox of N-Air's job better, and a very fast, more active, disjointed B-Air (that you will probably use OoS more than N-Air when the opponent is behind you anyway, just like in 3.0).

Now I just want to restate, I'm not talking about what was better for design, I'm just answering the thread's question. Which is better? I really have a hard time believing new N-Air is actually better than the old N-Air. A lot of people might like it more because it looks less silly and some people probably do like it because it's got neat stuff with the shield, but adding up what both are good for, I really believe 3.0 had the better N-Air.

I don't think this change makes T.Link in any way unviable and I don't think it's a super nerf or anything. Honestly the nerfs his U-Smash got hurt T.Link a lot worse than this.
 

G13_Flux

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#20
if you really want to go through projectiles just use zair.. my friend plays samus, and its like.. a joke. i can just hit right through the missiles and hit him too.

i think the new nair is great though. it took me a bit to get warmed up to, but its true that it rewards your precision far more than the reward of 3.02 nair.
 

B.W.

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#21
I'm not sure how its precision is less of a reward of 3.0 N-Air when they achieved the same things. Yes it feels more rewarding because you, in a sense, have to work harder but on hit they literally achieve the same thing.

Also Z-Air exists for stuff like that yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with 3.0 N-Air being better or worse than 3.5 N-Air.
 

G13_Flux

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#22
^i was just mentioning that since tink has other reliable tools in his kit to deal with projectiles, he has room for different kind of tools in other places, and that makes the lingering hitbox of old nair redundant, at least in that scenario.

but since it has a disjoint, you can space on shield more properly. this adds to the relative safety it has frame data wise. since old nair didnt have a disjoint, you had a lot less wiggle room to mess up. same goes for OOS. since it not only autocancels, but has the disjoint, you can reach your opponent farther away, and drift back further. ive noticed myself being able to keep much more distance from the opponent while still pressuring them, as opposed to trying to get close and beat them out with a beefy hitbox.

i wouldnt throw discussions of fair into the mix, since its not a great OOS option, and its much slower than the rest of his aerials. sure you can use it to approach, but when youre looking for speed and quick options, its not going to be your go-to.
 

B.W.

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#23
OoS, even new N-Air is your best option, I didn't state that F-Air was a better OoS option than either N-Air, but I did state that B-Air is better at covering your backside OoS than both N-Airs so I can see where the confusion for that is.

Also Z-Airs are fantastic at dealing with oncoming projectiles, this is true. Though I wouldn't say that invalidates 3.0 N-Air for projectile blocking, but it definitely invalidates 3.5 N-Air for it. 3.0 N-Air covered a lot more around T.Link. Front, bottom and a little in back so it kept him safer when breaking through projectiles, something Z-Air doesn't do. Z-Air still creates a nice wall in front of him though so as long as nothing gets past it (and really nothing should if you're doing it right) it does make a good sub for 3.0 N-Air in that regard.

I can't really speak for Z-Airing shields because it's not something I've done often, but it's a good point to bring up.

Z-Air still doesn't offer you protection from stuff below though, and it doesn't create an effective wall of a hitbox like N-Air did. But I can see it making a good sub for the stuff you mentioned.
 
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#24
I always liked new nair over sex kick nair. I think it makes more sense for tink to have because it's an aerial that isn't really meant for killing that, as a sex kick, lasted until you hit the floor. With new nair you can act out of it and throw projectiles far quicker (ie. in the air) and those are much more important to tinks game than a sex kick.

Can you still get double hit nair? Those are such a good feeling to land.
 
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Blazing Ambition

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#25
The only reason I played TL in 3.02 was the fact that you could moonwalk -> nair -> double jump -> flame spike.
The new TL is probably a better, more unique, well rounded character, but to me he just feels bland and devoid of style.
 
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2rad

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#26
My opinions on the new nair in a nutshell:

It's safer as an edgeguard (low commitment), it has better stats on its active frames (and better range), it's a kill move, etc.
Howver, it's really fast so it doesn't cover you as much as the kick did, and I prefer the style of the kick. Fastfalling those was so fun (T.T)
Anyway, if you want a lingering move, I'm pretty sure your up air is just better overall than the kick was.
As a combo tool, the new one is also better, because you can follow up after it quicker, and having two different hits is good if you can land it right.
It also destroys shields if you come up through them with it or shorthop fast fall onto one with it.
I personally prefered the old one, because it was quick, useful, and lingering. Once I got used to the mid-air flipout that is the new one, though, the kick wasn't missed. The new one just needs slightly tougher timing and a different mindset.

Toon Link; Didn't Read: There are pros and cons to the change, but other than as a lingering move and as a style move, nothing was lost and so much was gained.
 
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steakhouse

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#30
there is no discussion to be had on whether or not Tink is a total BAMF so we just kinda roll with it

I disagree with @ 2rad 2rad tho, sex kick was probably better for edgeguarding cuz lingering hitbox that didn't require precision (which is an important factor on recoveries like Ike or Fawks) but Tink's edgeguard game is already so ridiculous and new nair is better overall onstage that it's clearly a buff
 

B.W.

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#31
I still disagree. 3.0 N-Air was way better thanks to the protection it provided, specifically OoS, but 3.5 N-Air isn't bad. One thing 3.5 N-Air does is give him sort of an equivalent of Y.Link's B-Air, but better because it's disjointed.

I think new N-Air is also nice because 3.0s N-Air didn't look right with his leg sticking out the way it did. This animation fits the character a lot better.
 
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