2D Menace

[4tlas]

Hey Zelda players, what do you do when playing against a Game&Watch? I feel like his disjoints are outrageous and his upB makes him impossible to combo. He's faster than Zelda and even his super slow defensive options are faster than her. I can't even use Dins because he'll absorb it...TWICE

 

[Luis Alonso]

I've never played a Game & Watch before so I can't answer you there. I'm curious too what kinda strats veteran Zeldas have against that monochrome menace.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I have a recorded match against a scrubby G&W on my Day 1 of 3.5 Zelda. I don't know how much you can glean from this, but it's something. FD was a really poor CP on his part. The stage definitely favors Zelda in this MU.

Din's worked super well. Because he's light and floaty, they knocked him around a lot. He never absorbed Din's, which I think was a huge mistake on his part, as it would have severely limited me. I don't think that he could have used bucket effectively while recovering, though, due to where I placed them, and I did get solid punishes off that.

Anything > up-air never worked. He always went too high

 

[tavarner17]

Hey, I'm a little late to this thread, I main both G&W and Zelda so I'd like to think I know both of their options pretty well. That said, I'm pretty new to these forums, so I'll default to whatever more experienced people have to say.

Spoiler: Din's

ABUSE your fire buddy. But do it a little differently than normal. Yes he can absorb it, but it's WAY easier for him to do that when it the ball is moving. Once it's stationary he has a lot less options. He can work around it or confront it, and both should give you a good read. If he confronts it he can use a disjoint on it the way a Swordsman would, or try and absorb it.

To absorb it he would need to wavedash in or drop into on a jump, and neither are great options because the Bucket has braking properties. He will also be stuck in a bit of end lag if you want to approach during this, especially considering he will need to drift in slowly under the brake. It's especially difficult for him to absorb if you place it under a platform. So this would encourage him to use that platform, which is often times a good height for your Up-tilt or Up-smash.

If he knocks your fire buddy away with a disjoint, depending on the move he uses he will be stuck in some endlag you can capitalize on. His moves generally have a lot of duration, allowing you to approach. Based on where you place the Din's though, you can make him clank it with more laggy options. Put it just high enough so he can't jab it. If he wants to hit it his options are U-tilt, Side-B, or a short-hop aerial. These all make him predictable and punishable.

Spoiler: Killing G&W

Most of your standard kill options should work, but you need to use them situationally. He is super light, so he dies quickly off the top. Your Up-air out-disjoints his Key, and your Up-tilt is very dangerous for him if you can get a hard read. His horizontal recovery is also not particularly good. If you can penetrate his wall of disjoint your kicks will wreck him, and your back throw can kill early too, especially if you catch him with bad Di. F-smash is good too, but I think the kicks and Up-tilt are better options.

Spoiler: Working against his disjoints

Punishing unsafe horizontal approaches with Nayru's works as normal, and it's something G&W has to respect. The Key will be dangerous though, because it will penetrate your Nayru's from above, and with it's landing hitbox, spot dodging is not a good option either. You just can't allow him to be directly above you unless you've got an Up-air coming out. If you're high and he's below you, use your B-move mix-up options to get down from juggles. Your D-air stomp will not out-disjoint his Up-air or Up-tilt, and it will be very difficult to time on his Up-B. For his grounded disjoints, its a game of calculated spacing. Keep your distance, and take advantage of of his long hitbox durations and lagtimes to set traps. Catch him doing something stupid, and punish.

G&W being faster than Zelda shouldn't be a problem on it's own. Most of the cast is faster than Zelda; she shouldn't have to change her playstyle too much there.

Spoiler: Maps

As a Zelda, I would try to play G&W on PS2. Lower ceiling, just the right amount of platforms, and a big flat open space to get away from him. FD is pretty good for you, again with the space. I think GHZ is pretty neutral, you can both kill each other easily, and the flat space is good, but the platform doesn't work in Zelda's favor in my opinion. Smashville leans slightly in Zelda's favor IMO. You can camp well on Norfair, Distant Planet has a lot of space too.

If I was the G&W I would want to take you to Warioware or either Yoshi's. Small stages, platforms, and mobility are good for him in this matchup.

Edit: Collapsed format, some minor corrections.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Hey, I'm a little late to this thread, I main both G&W and Zelda so I'd like to think know both of their options pretty well. That said, I'm pretty new to these forums, so I'll default to whatever more experienced people have to say.

Din's

ABUSE your fire buddy. But do it a little differently than normal. Yes he can absorb it, but it's WAY easier for him to do that when it the ball is moving. Once it's stationary he has a lot less options. He can work around it or confront it, and both should give you a good read. If he confronts it he can use a disjoint on it the way a Swordsman would, or try and absorb it.

To absorb it he would need to wavedash in or drop into on a jump, and neither are great options because the Bucket has braking properties. He will also be stuck in a bit of end lag if you want to approach during this, especially considering he will need to drift in slowly under the brake. It's especially difficult for him to absorb if you place it under a platform. So this would encourage him to use that platform, which is often times a good height for your Up-tilt or Up-smash.

If he knocks your fire buddy away with a disjoint, depending on the move he uses he will be stuck in some endlag you can capitalize on. His moves generally have a lot of duration, allowing you to approach. Based on where you place the Din's though, you can make him clank it with more laggy options. Put it just high enough so he can't jab it. If he wants to hit it his options are U-tilt, Side-B, or a short-hop aerial. These all make him predictable and punishable.

Killing G&W

Most of your standard kill options should work, but you need to use them situationally. He is super light, so he dies quickly off the top. Your Up-air out-disjoints his Key, and your Up-tilt is very dangerous for him if you can get a hard read. His horizontal recovery is also not particularly good. If you can penetrate his wall of disjoint your kicks will wreck him, and your back throw can kill early too, especially if you catch him with bad Di. F-smash is good too, but I think the kicks and Up-tilt are better options.

Working against his disjoints

Punishing unsafe horizontal approaches with Nayru's works as normal, and it's something G&W has to respect. The Key will be dangerous though, because it will penetrate your Nayru's from above, and with it's landing hitbox, spot dodging is not a good option either. You just can't allow him to be directly above you. In the air, use your B-move mix-up options to get down from juggles. Your D-air stomp will not out-disjoint his Up-air or Up-tilt, and it will be very difficult to time on his Up-B. For his grounded disjoints, its a game of calculated spacing. Keep your distance, and take advantage of of his long hitbox durations and lagtimes to set traps. Catch him doing something stupid, and punish.

G&W being faster than Zelda shouldn't be a problem on it's own. Most of the cast is faster than Zelda; she shouldn't have to change her playstyle too much there.

Maps

As a Zelda, I would try to play G&W on PS2. Lower ceiling, just the right amount of platforms, and a big flat open space to get away from him. FD is pretty good for you, again with the space. I think GHZ is pretty neutral, you can both kill each other easily, and the flat space is good, but the platform doesn't work in Zelda's favor in my opinion. Smashville leans slightly in Zelda's favor IMO. You can camp well on Norfair, Distant Planet has a lot of space too.

If I was the G&W I would want to take you to Warioware or either Yoshi's. Small stages, platforms, and mobility are good for him in this matchup.

 

[4tlas]

One thing I've found very useful is to place a huge Dins far away from G&W. If I use my body to hit him into it while its returning, I can often get easy upair kills. Another option is to look like I'm going to place it on him, which gets a bucket or shield response, then continue to channel it into a huge Dins past him. I find these help with the neutral game a bit.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBVkZaPAXq0 heres an example video. Normally I dont care for example videos because all they show is that the successful player is better than the opponent, but here you can clearly see I get destroyed by this player at first yet there are still things you can do as Zelda. Something always important to note is that every individual player has weaknesses, and purposely conditioning, reading, and mindgaming your opponent can take you very far. I don't know if Zelda can do much to G&W if both players are TAS bots, but your opponent isn't a TAS bot.

 

[TimeSmash]

A small thing, G&W can absorb the ball of fire, but he can't absorb the actual explosion if I remember correctly. Though it's been a little bit. I haven't played him a lot (somewhat in doubles), but respect his Nair. It's quite large and if you try to go in too grredy with kicks you'll get hurt. Also if you spam Nayru's, he could just shield and then do SideB, which could just **** up your day.

Does USmash chain on him at early percents? I swore I could get two in.

 

[4tlas]

A small thing, G&W can absorb the ball of fire, but he can't absorb the actual explosion if I remember correctly. Though it's been a little bit. I haven't played him a lot (somewhat in doubles), but respect his Nair. It's quite large and if you try to go in too grredy with kicks you'll get hurt. Also if you spam Nayru's, he could just shield and then do SideB, which could just **** up your day.

Does USmash chain on him at early percents? I swore I could get two in.

Yeah I can get in 2 Upsmashes. Then its all WHEE TRAMPOLINE

 

[TimeSmash]

Yeah I can get in 2 Upsmashes. Then its all WHEE TRAMPOLINE

At least if he tries to dair it's super predictable. Refresh me, can Uair go through it and hit him? I remember like nothing about this MU hahaha

 

[luxingo]

G&W can absorb the ball of fire, but he can't absorb the actual explosion if I remember correctly.

You remember correctly. And the same applies for Ness and Lucas.

Also, the quoted statement implies there's one explosion but don't forget there's the initial explosion transitioning from mine to returning fire, and then you can explode it manually as well.

The point to take from that is to input side B when he's about to absorb the fire, aiming to hit him with the explosion, which he can't absorb.

 

[4tlas]

At least if he tries to dair it's super predictable. Refresh me, can Uair go through it and hit him? I remember like nothing about this MU hahaha

Yes it can if spaced perfectly. And as you mentioned before, the Din explosion cannot be absorbed. I've gotten many G&Ws upset over that

 

[TimeSmash]

This is where the manual explosion could come into play nicely. Returning Din's heads towards Game and Watch, goes to bucket, manual explode and F him!

 

[Kaeldiar]

How to beat a GnW

He can actually play this character, so this was a good learning match for me. You can edgeguard him REALLY easily. He has a lot of trouble getting back on the stage or up from the ledge

 

[4tlas]

How to beat a GnW

He can actually play this character, so this was a good learning match for me. You can edgeguard him REALLY easily. He has a lot of trouble getting back on the stage or up from the ledge

If by easy edgeguarding you're referring to using Dins so he can't sweetspot, that doesn't actually work. SmashGod was just afraid of it because he didn't seem to know the matchup. G&W upB goes straight through it, he can sweetspot every time if he wants.

 

[Kaeldiar]

If by easy edgeguarding you're referring to using Dins so he can't sweetspot, that doesn't actually work. SmashGod was just afraid of it because he didn't seem to know the matchup. G&W upB goes straight through it, he can sweetspot every time if he wants.

If you time the explosion correctly, you can beat out up-b. Even if you don't, just throwing out a Din's, ESPECIALLY USING THE WISP can make sweetspotting the ledge very difficult. Everyone has a "feel" for how to get themselves set to sweetspot. If you can mess with that (whether by hitting them or threatening such), you are going to force them into making errors, which is a lot of Zelda's game. We should never count out the power of fear

I can't count the number of times I've made a Marth or Ganon miss a sweetspot because I used Din's to edgeguard. Even if I don't hit them, it's the threat that makes a huge difference

 

[4tlas]

If you time the explosion correctly, you can beat out up-b. Even if you don't, just throwing out a Din's, ESPECIALLY USING THE WISP can make sweetspotting the ledge very difficult. Everyone has a "feel" for how to get themselves set to sweetspot. If you can mess with that (whether by hitting them or threatening such), you are going to force them into making errors, which is a lot of Zelda's game. We should never count out the power of fear

I can't count the number of times I've made a Marth or Ganon miss a sweetspot because I used Din's to edgeguard. Even if I don't hit them, it's the threat that makes a huge difference

I still do it, but my opponents learn to ignore it eventually. If I don't play with my training partners for a few weeks, they forget and I can beat G&W in bracket.