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20GX on Luigi techchase

Discussion in 'Luigi' started by Amish_Catfish, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. Amish_Catfish

    Amish_Catfish
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    Seen this on reddit/r/ssbm, thought i should post it on here for the people that don't browse reddit.


    Luigis tech chase is very simple, much simpler than falcons. Let me explain.

    First, let's consider that luigi has two main options that A. Cover both sides of him, starting from both his front and his back B. Have a direct vertical knock back. This is incredibly important for tech chasing options because vertical knockback is the fastest to ignore asdi, which is the ONLY defensive option one has during a tech roll. C. Are faster than grab, thus being suitable reactive punishes for tech in place. These two moves are, of course, dsmash and utilt. It's very good for luigi that one of these hits in front first (dsmash) and the other hits in the back first (utilt.)

    So, the first way to tech chase is to make the tech roll punishes faster by jumping early in the tech animation. This allows you to still JC into a grab, punishing tech in place, while also being able to quickly choose whether you will wavedash to the right or left in the event of a tech roll.

    Let's see how this breaks down. Remember, tech in place is a 26 frame animation.

    Frame 15. Jump input

    ....

    Frame 19. Decision to grab tech in place must be made

    Frame 20. Luigi is airborne, can now start wavedash

    .....

    Frame 26. If luigi did jc grab, grab now comes out. Tech in place animation ends.

    .....

    Frame 30. Holy crap luigi is already on top of the opponent he's so fast (wavedash lag ends at this point, now assuming we are punishing tech rolls.)

    Frame 31. Luigi can now choose between a variety of moves, but in this case, let's stick with dsmash or utilt. Remember, hitting with the front of dsmash will be an easier punish for tech roll away than trying to utilt.

    .....

    Frame 40. Tech roll animation ends

    Now, consider that one can JC grab immediately in the jump animation, so it is possible to jump on frame 18, thus making it so the decision to wavedash in a direction can be delayed until frame 22-23.

    Alternate method:

    Given that dsmash and utilt are faster than grab, they are suitable replacements as a tech in place punish. However, you can not jc either of these moves, so this decision will make the timing of punishing a tech roll much tighter.

    To clarify, now you can wait until frame 21 to punish tech in place. This will of course bring dsmash out on frame 26 (dsmash should do a good job of contesting shine if spaced properly in the event of being late.)

    However, utilt being 1 frame faster than dsmash is now a tricky idea for this tech chase. This is because if you waited until frame 22, you would lose the option to punish the tech rolls with dsmash.

    Which brings me to my final point. If you delay until frame 21 to make your punish on tech in place easier, you need to have perfect executional timing on your tech roll punishes. This is very simple math. Wavedash takes 14 frames, dsmash takes 5 frames. 14+5=19. 21+19=40. The tech roll animations are 40 frames. You can shave one frame off by using utilt, but that is based strongly on positioning.

    This is my contribution to you luigi mains, based on my understanding of the character and the game. If I have any data wrong, feel free to correct me. Implementing and improving upon this is up to the luigi mains. I can tell you a few things to look for; the percentage at which dsmash and utilt break through asdi on relevant characters should be found and noted. What percent does it cause knockdown, and what percent does it lift up? If there is a percent range where either move does not cause a knockdown, DO NOT USE IT IN THAT RANGE.

    Also, take advantage of your big harder hitting moves when a tech roll is limited by stage positioning. For example, if tech roll away is on a platform, can you just insta dair instead of doing a wavedash? What about fsmash? Does up b fit into this tech chase at all?

    My suggestion is to take this as a nudge in the right direction, and run with it.
     
  2. as;ldh

    as;ldh
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    Awesome Info
     
  3. gravy

    gravy
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    Smash Ace

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    I got you dawgs
     
    Bandito, Pazx, P@RA and 1 other person like this.
  4. Sycorax

    Sycorax
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    You should really cite or give credit. Or at least give a link. Although, I suppose Gravy already came to tell everyone :p
     
    Kadano likes this.
  5. gravy

    gravy
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    Yah he posted it before me lolz
     
  6. TobiasXK

    TobiasXK
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    um
     
    Griffard likes this.
  7. Verda Stelo

    Verda Stelo
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    So the way that I've begun to tech chase throws on fastfallers may be slightly less theoretically sound but seems slightly easier. At low percents uthrow gives you a much larger window to position yourself to be able to react to the four tech options. Depending on percent and DI you can choose to dash, walk, or hop into the position from which you can grab/jab tech in place/no tech. From there you wavedash (or simply dash for tech in) to cover either tech rolls. At mid-high percent your opponent will begin to jump out of uthrow so you have to switch to dthrow which is the harder but more guaranteed regrab setup.
    The beauty of Luigi's tech chase game is in the mixups. I mentioned earlier that you can dash, walk, or hop into position after your throw--that's three different setups each with their own nuances that aid and hinder certain reactions and followups that your opponent has to consider in their tech decision. Until the highest percents you can go for cross up grabs to either mess up their DI or force their position to your advantage.
     
  8. Jelson

    Jelson
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    On fastfallers uthrow should be chained into more uthrows. If you purposely just want to mix it up and go for a tech chase (if they have a habit of tech rolling or something else you've picked up on while they're under pressure) then down throw to backward wavedash, but be mindful of the get up attack if they miss the tech. Actually now that you mention it, just walking upbto an opponent after down throw wouldn't be a bad idea.

    Also as far options when attacking a recovering/teching opponent would be landing on them with a late Nair, or wavedash to charged down/up/forward smash
     
    #8 Jelson, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  9. Verda Stelo

    Verda Stelo
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    Since we're referring to the highly optimized future of the metagame, utilt is suboptimal compared to the regrab which is guaranteed due to the limited amount of DI options as well as the known set of options from their contact with the ground. Utilt is susceptible to smash DI which can interrupt the flow state that you enter in reactive tech chasing (because you've experienced the exact situation several times before) or allow your opponent to escape altogether. I do agree that utilt is a very potent combo tool that can be used as a mixup to the regrab.
     
  10. BluEG

    BluEG
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    This stuff is useful but ignores having to be in the correct position for tech chasing. Luigi slides all over the place =/

    That being said, our tech chasing could use a lot more optimization!
     
  11. Orancube

    Orancube
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    How do we cover missed when we jump? Get up attack is a huge problem.
    Also do we use downthrow or upthrow on spacies?
     
  12. pkFRASH

    pkFRASH
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    I have a few questions regarding tech chasing, please excuse me if some of it is pretty basic, I'm still pretty new to the more advanced play!
    So after dtrhow, I'm gathering that a missed tech or tech in place can be followed up with a jcgrab, but if you predict a tech away and wd follow and they actually tech in place or miss, what would be the options there? Or should i be reacting more than predicting?

    Is pivot jab or pivot ftilt ever that useful? Is a jab reset to upb possible? If so best set ups?

    Also if you get up tilt or Dsmash after a tech roll, what's best to follow up with then? It just seems to me that regrab is always the best option, but I put that down to inexperience!

    Thanks guys! X
     
  13. M-Tude

    M-Tude
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    I don't know if this term has been coined yet, but I think we should call this the LuiGX tech case.

    Also, some thoughts:
    • Up-B can be replaced as a punish option for ANY of the tech punishes. It can be jump cancelled for the tech in place punish and it comes out frame 5 so it's fast enough for the tech rolls too.
    • Up-B also hits missed tech, which grab does not.
    • Essentially this allows us access to a guaranteed killing move provided we can do this tech chase
    Also, considering the complaint that Luigi is slippery and it is hard to get into position and KEEP position, a solution I thought of is WDing to position and doing an immediate shield stop out of a dash to stop momentum wherever you want to be. Shielding is fine because we will cancel it anyway with the jump input between frames 15-21.

    I'll see if I can upload a video of this maybe, but it should be pretty self explanatory.

    Also, I'm not a Luigi main but my primary practice partner is. I feel for you though, cause this stuff looks HARD. Good luck, can't wait to see if anyone uses this. Hope it helps.
     
    Anuran likes this.
  14. WeegUK

    WeegUK
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    Luigi main/nooob here!

    Let me ask... I want to go through this in simple detail to get it straight,

    Example: we've just up throw(n) a fox at mid percent (assuming we're not going for a chain grab now) and are reading di to some extent, our tech chase options are

    missed tech (probably just re grab or jab reset grab/whatever),
    tech in place (again re grab, dsmash/up tilt/whatever),
    tech roll left/right (wavedash dsmash/up tilt, possible grab, feck it jab shoryuken if you want!)

    but that between the tech in place and tech roll choices we have a 4 frame reaction time of weather we jump cancel the jump input into grab or choose a direction to wavedash?
    Sounds like major guess work to me or am I getting this totally wrong?
     
  15. Yann J.Ridin

    Yann J.Ridin
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    You can't grab a misstech.
    Reaction time is about 200 t0 300ms so 15 to 19 frames. In sum, what is faster than 15 frames need to be guessed.
    My personal technique to techchase is: Dsmash if misstech or standing tech. Run to CC Dsmash if he rolls out. Dash JC grab if he rolls in.
     
    WeegUK likes this.
  16. WeegUK

    WeegUK
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    Lets say we up throw and turn straight away, missed tech = shoryuken, tech in place = regrab (given that shoryuken can very easily be shielded?) tech away = WD forward dsmash and tech in = WD back uptilt, these seem to be the most optimal options but mean that you have to react to tech animations, where as cyclone can cover everything but tech roll in? And therefore could be thrown out automatically and moved left or right when you see them roll?
    Obviously up throw makes positioning easier but that makes dthrow a good mix up and possibly makes the opponent miss tech more?

    These are just a few thoughts I'd like to discuss, I've got more to talk about but what's your opinions on this everybody?
     
  17. Focus Attack

    Focus Attack
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    At percents where up B kills dsmash is gonna send them too high to follow up on until it starts killing itself around 150%. Regrab, utilt, ftilt, and fsmash are gonna be better options there.
     
  18. WeegUK

    WeegUK
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    Ive been thinking that up b on missed techs is gonna really pressure our opponents to tech somehow, thus limiting their options slightly? I mean obviously really savvy players will still miss tech to throw us off but if you catch one with up b then can read/react to a tech roll and punish again with up b that's gonna shake the opponent up something rotten!!
     
  19. WeegUK

    WeegUK
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    Seeing as no ones posting I feel a double post won't be so bad!

    Anyone got any info on best punishes for get up attack? I've been trying a few things but have no idea what's "best"
    The options I can see are to either:
    Sheild wd anything
    Spot dodge to anything
    Sh weak nair to up tilt
    Dash dance jc upsmash/grab (can up b work?)

    Any input guys?
     
  20. Focus Attack

    Focus Attack
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    None of Luigi's options are so fundamentally strong and consistent that there is always going to be a best answer in the thousands of situations that occur when someone getup attacks. The most important thing is to be good at using all of those punishes when they are the most appropriate. You want to punish getup attack and everything else out of as many positions and movements as possible which means you need your full kit. All of those things you listed work if you make them work.

    I like to short hop over the lower getup attacks like those of Fox, Falco, and Peach and go for things like strong nair, weak nair which actually may be very precise in timing, dair, tomahawk grab, or up B as you mentioned earlier if they're at kill percent.
    Maybe one day I'll be good enough to recognize which side the hitbox is gonna come out on first lol
     
    WeegUK likes this.

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