2018 Tier List

[Nohbl]

Singles Top 3 (in my lowly opinion) without order are Falco, Fox and Marth.* Arguably Fox and Falco could be equal in whatever spot they would occupy. It's hard see how having the reflector doesn't automatically make them the top characters, what with breaking crouch cancel and pressuring shield. After witnessing Smashbot's Fox and theoretically what could happen to any other character that isn't Falco, I have no belief whatsoever in their ever attaining a Top 2 spot.

Of course, that's perfect Melee, and it's so very likely that perfect Melee will never arrive. Indeed, for the past year, only one (1) Falco player has been a contender for winning majors; considering how good the character is, this is a freakish anomaly that would have only happened in a suboptimal universe. So if we aren't measuring the theoretical, what are we measuring? From what I've seen, people try to measure a Frankenstein's monster of results and theoreticals. If that's so, then the community will never produce a list that is more than just "good enough" for a couple years before they have to shuffle things out again. How boring.

*But with Jigglypuff possessing the Rest factor and her full meta yet underdeveloped, it's still up in the air (!) whether she belongs in Top 3 or Marth.

 

[zuloon]

Singles Top 3 (in my lowly opinion) without order are Falco, Fox and Marth.* Arguably Fox and Falco could be equal in whatever spot they would occupy. It's hard see how having the reflector doesn't automatically make them the top characters, what with breaking crouch cancel and pressuring shield. After witnessing Smashbot's Fox and theoretically what could happen to any other character that isn't Falco, I have no belief whatsoever in their ever attaining a Top 2 spot.

Of course, that's perfect Melee, and it's so very likely that perfect Melee will never arrive. Indeed, for the past year, only one (1) Falco player has been a contender for winning majors; considering how good the character is, this is a freakish anomaly that would have only happened in a suboptimal universe. So if we aren't measuring the theoretical, what are we measuring? From what I've seen, people try to measure a Frankenstein's monster of results and theoreticals. If that's so, then the community will never produce a list that is more than just "good enough" for a couple years before they have to shuffle things out again. How boring.

*But with Jigglypuff possessing the Rest factor and her full meta yet underdeveloped, it's still up in the air (!) whether she belongs in Top 3 or Marth.

I like you.

 

[Modesty]

So like the last tier list i see anywhere is from 2015!! and it looks kinda off... Heres my opinion of a more updated tier list. (Dont crucify me its just my opinion, but I would like to hear your thoughts)
https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,25,11,3.D#15,19,16,21,26,17.F#1,10.1,1,1,1,1

Mostly fine, you hella underrate Samus tho

Well for one: to me, His recovery is pretty bad.

Second: like you stated, he doesn't have a projectile, which is actually important when your opponent is off stage (for adding damage like fox and falco as a example)

Third: If attacked with projectiles all he can do is shield, (unlike Fox, with i his shine and Zelda, with Nayru's Love can send the projectile right back to the attacker.

Those are a few things that in my opinion set him back. However, i think he should be at least between Samus and pikachu. But this all my opinion and i think the rest of the tier list looks great

Think you really underrate Falcon for the wrong reasons. His recovery is pretty bad, but his lack of projectile is not that much of a hindrance when you consider his exceptionally strong movement speed and punish game. While Falco's lasers and sheik's needles can give him trouble, I wouldn't say too many other projectiles do. Peach's Turnips work well against him but it's dangerous for Peach to pull them, and the general opinion is even that Falcon beats Peach. I think it's really hard to leave Falcon out of the top 8. He loses to spacies especially Falco as well Sheik, but the match ups are do able, does fine against marth and puff, and beats peach and samus.

I don't really see Mario in the same tier as Doc. since the second one is basically a stronger version of the first.

Agree 100% Doc is underrated.

Literally any tier list is opinion but it should be backed up by facts. Let me give some reasons for why the changes I made are better.

The justification of puff being over sheik is pretty straightforward. Puff has one definite losing matchup, fox. All her other matchups are only theoretically losing (falco, marth) if she even loses. Sheik loses to ICs and fox. So sheik has more losing matchups. And sheik doesn't have a super good matchup in the top eight. But puff does, against ICs and especially Peach. So basically puff just has a better matchup spread.

ICs are not better than peach. We'll look at the matchup spread. So peach wins head to head against ICs. It's ICs worst matchup. ICs always have a hard loss to Puff. Peach also has a hard loss to puff. ICs have a good matchup against sheik. So far peach and puff are even (even though IC sheik isn't as good for ICs as Peach ICs is good for peach). ICs have hard loses to both fox and marth and at bare minimum does not beat falco and falcon. Where as peach loses to fox and marth not nearly as badly and has roughly even matchups against falco and falcon. If you wanted to take another approach where you look at frame data and neutral and punish, ICs still lose even though they have wobbling. Like I've never heard of an IC main putting ICs above peach so.

Really what I take issue with the most is placing ICs above peach. Basically nothing supports that, theory, results, nothing.

Agree Puff over Sheik and most of the statement, but I do think Puff also slightly loses to Falco.

I don't think you can justify Icies over Peach in any way. I don't think Icies Puff is anywhere near as bad as Peach Puff, but Icies lose to Peach and Fox hard. I'd say they both lose to Marth, and Icies lose to Falco worse, Peach I think goes even. Icies might do slightly better against Falcon, but they also lose to Samus and have trouble with Luigi and Gannon.

I'd be interested to hear the arguments for Icies or Pikachu over Samus. Both those characters have much worse neutral games and match up spreads in my opinion.

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,26.F#21,19,10.G#1,17.1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1

This would be my tier list rn, not as confident on the low tiers, but I will defend my top 8 lmao

 

[GatGoat]

Mostly fine, you hella underrate Samus tho



Think you really underrate Falcon for the wrong reasons. His recovery is pretty bad, but his lack of projectile is not that much of a hindrance when you consider his exceptionally strong movement speed and punish game. While Falco's lasers and sheik's needles can give him trouble, I wouldn't say too many other projectiles do. Peach's Turnips work well against him but it's dangerous for Peach to pull them, and the general opinion is even that Falcon beats Peach. I think it's really hard to leave Falcon out of the top 8. He loses to spacies especially Falco as well Sheik, but the match ups are do able, does fine against marth and puff, and beats peach and samus.


Agree 100% Doc is underrated.



Agree Puff over Sheik and most of the statement, but I do think Puff also slightly loses to Falco.

I don't think you can justify Icies over Peach in any way. I don't think Icies Puff is anywhere near as bad as Peach Puff, but Icies lose to Peach and Fox hard. I'd say they both lose to Marth, and Icies lose to Falco worse, Peach I think goes even. Icies might do slightly better against Falcon, but they also lose to Samus and have trouble with Luigi and Gannon.

I'd be interested to hear the arguments for Icies or Pikachu over Samus. Both those characters have much worse neutral games and match up spreads in my opinion.

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,26.F#21,19,10.G#1,17.1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1

This would be my tier list rn, not as confident on the low tiers, but I will defend my top 8 lmao

easy, pikas movement and gimping ability keep him above samus. and maybe i do overrate ics because of wobbling ill admit. but i have a buddy who can do some crazy desyncs as well so i factored that in. as for doc i honestly dont think hes much better than mario besides his wavedash bair... but i also just want to add that i didnt give much thought to the order within the tiers themselves, i kinda think theyre interchangeable . my personal bias wouldve been to put DK in front of ganon but i didnt want to be crucified by nerds lol

 

[Modesty]

easy, pikas movement and gimping ability keep him above samus. and maybe i do overrate ics because of wobbling ill admit. but i have a buddy who can do some crazy desyncs as well so i factored that in. as for doc i honestly dont think hes much better than mario besides his wavedash bair... but i also just want to add that i didnt give much thought to the order within the tiers themselves, i kinda think theyre interchangeable . my personal bias wouldve been to put DK in front of ganon but i didnt want to be crucified by nerds lol

Pikachu has a pretty solid punish game, but overall has a pretty bad neutral. Pika has really bad range and limited approach options. Samus has a worse punish game, but a legitimately top tier neutral. Samus also has a much better match up spread. Pikachu loses badly to Fox, Peach, Puff, and icies. He has a solid match up into Marth but that's about it for the top tiers. Most of Samus match ups are pretty doable her worst being Sheik and Falcon, but she has a solid match up vs spacies. Icies are sort of the same story in my opinion. They have a weak neutral game, but wobbling is always going to be a threat so they are more of a wild card, but since a lot of what they do is punish dependent, in a vacuum they are pretty bad.

Not sure I can agree with DK over Gannon but idk all that much about DK.

 

[GatGoat]

Pikachu has a pretty solid punish game, but overall has a pretty bad neutral. Pika has really bad range and limited approach options. Samus has a worse punish game, but a legitimately top tier neutral. Samus also has a much better match up spread. Pikachu loses badly to Fox, Peach, Puff, and icies. He has a solid match up into Marth but that's about it for the top tiers. Most of Samus match ups are pretty doable her worst being Sheik and Falcon, but she has a solid match up vs spacies. Icies are sort of the same story in my opinion. They have a weak neutral game, but wobbling is always going to be a threat so they are more of a wild card, but since a lot of what they do is punish dependent, in a vacuum they are pretty bad.

Not sure I can agree with DK over Gannon but idk all that much about DK.

in my honest opinion (im a low tier fanatic) everyone has a solid matchup against spacies since they get combo'd without end... and DK is definitely worse than ganon, i just love Dks punish game.

 

[Zaedis]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,3,11,16,21.G#19,26,17.H#10,1.1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
This is where I think characters should be about at on the tier list, but hey my opinion doesn't count for anything, I'm not even ranked locally.

 

[Nohbl]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,3,11,16,21.G#19,26,17.H#10,1.1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
This is where I think characters should be about at on the tier list, but hey my opinion doesn't count for anything, I'm not even ranked locally.

Here's a Luigi match to try and change your opinion.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Here's a Luigi match to try and change your opinion.

Your point?

 

[PixelSun]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,3,11,16,21.G#19,26,17.H#10,1.1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
This is where I think characters should be about at on the tier list, but hey my opinion doesn't count for anything, I'm not even ranked locally.

Just for curiosity, why did you put Falco above Fox?

 

[FalcoSBM1990]

SS Tier:

Fox

S Tier:

Marth, Falcon, Falco

A Tier:

Puff, Sheik, Peach

B Tier:

Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Yoshi, Samus, Dr.Mario, Luigi

 

[GatGoat]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,3,11,16,21.G#19,26,17.H#10,1.1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
This is where I think characters should be about at on the tier list, but hey my opinion doesn't count for anything, I'm not even ranked locally.

mewtwo 12th? LOL

 

[Skeeter Mania]

mewtwo 12th? LOL

Hey, he's free to have an opinion, m8.

 

[GatGoat]

Hey, he's free to have an opinion, m8.

i didnt say he wasnt allowed to have an opinion, but id like to know why he thinks mew2 is so high

 

[FooltheFlames]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...13.E#3,7,15,17,19,10.F#16,21,1,26.1,1,1,1,1,1

My list may be a little controversial hehe...

 

[Ten of Nine]

i didnt say he wasnt allowed to have an opinion, but id like to know why he thinks mew2 is so high

mew2 so high cuz he smokem weed

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...13.E#3,7,15,17,19,10.F#16,21,1,26.1,1,1,1,1,1

My list may be a little controversial hehe...

When someone says this, it's like saying "Don't even bother clicking the link I probably don't play this game". But's that's just an assumption, not saying it's truth...


IMO the 2018 tier list is the same as the last tier list. Let's all do the smart thing and wait for some repeated evidence for a character at high levels before discussing anything. Proof > Experience > Speculation > Hypotheticals >: |

Also I think Kirby should be higher (both physically and metaphorically)

 

[FooltheFlames]

mew2 so high cuz he smokem weed



When someone says this, it's like saying "Don't even bother clicking the link I probably don't play this game". But's that's just an assumption, not saying it's truth...


IMO the 2018 tier list is the same as the last tier list. Let's all do the smart thing and wait for some repeated evidence for a character at high levels before discussing anything. Proof > Experience > Speculation > Hypotheticals >: |

Also I think Kirby should be higher (both physically and metaphorically)

um I have definitely played Melee, like, a lot. Prolly more than any other; It's my favorite Smash.

That's why I said it might be controversial. I don't think Kirby and Pichu are the worst, but I see you agree with me on Kirby.