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[Shiri]

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[domiNate]

Kind of? haha anywas that was a nice read. I liked your points on all the different yoshi styles. One thing I'd like to say about your metaphor of all the different paths of yoshi play that lead to the same point, I like to think that those paths criss-cross and yoshi players can switch off and take things from each type of style and later go back to another and can learn from each one at different times to add more to their own style. Good stuff dude.

 

[Xanthyr]

I herd dat u cn got yyosi if u dup 1000 rar candez n bred 4 snorlax with a pika-blu. i swer i gt hem b4!!!!



















-cough- Oh man, that was tough on my brain. It took me over a minute to type that.

I see what you're talking about and I thought it was well pieced together. The technique knowledge aspect can be frighteningly powerful if you know how to use it. The twisting of the body of Yoshi can and must be used as a deadly tool. Such an example is the cookie-cutter situation of using his f-smash to avoid and then punish Marth after whiffing his own f-smash. To be a bit more unique, I'll show my own use of this fact.

2v2, I was the last one left on my team, and we were all on our last lives. I was recovering low with Yoshi, using his flutter jump to get back onto stage. Player 3(Fox) was ledge hogging and player 4 (Link) was standing near the ledge, waiting to spin-spike me. I am in the middle of the jump animation and the up-B happens. I'm about to hit it, but at the last moment I use Yoshi's Uair and dodge the last swing of the plade. l-cancel and then d-smash, Made me win the game. Or similar situation and I dodged a smash missile from Samus using the same tactic, and then caught her in her lag.

I don't know too much about the character/percentage-specific situations with Yoshi yet, but I'd gladly read every last bit if you were to write it down. Perhaps that's something that should be included in Project. Y.O.S.H.I.. A list where all of the attacks of the game, the effect they have on yoshi at which percentages. It could take a few days, but if someone where to apply that knowledge the double jump would be a fearsome beast.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow Shiri, that was deep and interesrting. Ill post my opinions when i have the time, but ur awesome.Liked the random jokes too

 

[Eltrotraw]

On a side note, Yoshi actually made wierd horn-like noises at first - he started talking Pokemon-ish starting from Yoshi's Story.

I sure wish I could add to that, though. I've got nothing.

 

[Shiri]

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[Deleted member]

Am I reading into the intricacies of our character too much? Perhaps. Maybe I should just play the game and have fun. However, I think regardless of the evolution of our tournament environment, we will still have a very long way for Yoshi to go both in the near and far futures. Thanks for taking the time to read this and feel free to post your own opinions. Hopefully this was coherent and meaningful. >_>;

Too bad brawl is out soon and all of our knowledge of yoshi goes out the window (unless melee tounies continue).

 

[Eltrotraw]

Too bad brawl is out soon and all of our knowledge of yoshi goes out the window (unless melee tounies continue).

That is why we need a more dedicated group to analyze the intricacies of Yoshi once Brawl comes out.

I'm not asking for a Mew2King styled analysis(though that would be very appreciated/nice), though as Shiri mentioned, knowing the ins and outs for Yoshi would be beneficial to all our games...

 

[Bloshi]

Normally I would love reading Shiri's long posts, but I don't care about the tier list that much at all...can you put in a tl; dr?

 

[Shiri]

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[Eltrotraw]

In other words: a summary.

 

[Shiri]

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[Shiri]

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[Bloshi]

It means too long; didn't read. Sorry for making it sound rude but I like short and sweet arguments in regard to tiers, as I think they're kind of dumb anyway. What's the point? Play who you wanna.

 

[Shiri]

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[Mind Trick]

Long but good read Shiri, props.

I agree with you on the Fox being the hardest matchup for Yoshi. I always thought it was Falco but somehow, the bird has become a somewhat more possible match up, while the fox... well... it makes me feel pretty helpless (watch this from 6:30 or so onward for a general feeling of the whoop *** i get from fast foxes XD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHe-kUfyoc)

About 2 weeks ago I faced probably the second best fox main of NL and I realised fox's speed is pretty broken vs Yoshi. You have to live without using a shield, because rolling is pretty much another free combo for fox >_<

Also, we dont have to suffer here from Sheiks broken grab here, so I tend to do pretty well vs sheiks, its still slightly in sheiks favor though imo.

Hardest matchups for Yoshi are imo:

1. Fox
2. Samus
3. Falco
4. Peach
5. Marth

 

[rmusgrave]

A good read Shiri. I agree with you when you say Fox is the hardest matchup, especially in NTSC. Your points on counter techniques to some of the cheap strategies top tiered characters use are also entirely valid for Yoshi.

I wish I had your faith in Yoshi however. I have picked up a lot of characters over the years for fun, and I honestly wouldn't place Yoshi much higher than he is on the tier list. We all know what Yoshi can do, but I think all the other characters above him have similar ability.

This is why I don't focus on tiers. Much more important to me in smash is matchups, which is also something you touched on. Yoshi can't solo a tournament. Each Yoshi player has his own style, and each style has its strengths against certain characters. Our overall goal should be to work out which style counters which character and which character no style can make an even matchup. It's for those characters that we need to counterpick.

My current lineup is Yoshi against everyone except Peach and Samus. I counter Peach with Fox, and Samus with Falcon. So far this has worked for me, but I've been lucky in tournaments to not face a Fox that is strong enough to beat me.

Another point I would make is that my Yoshi is incredibly strong against Samus players that do not know how to fight Yoshi. I can't say my style is too good against Samus however, as Hugs will sense my blasphemy and trash talk me down. I don't know how I became good against Samus, but since I faced Oro in 3 matches I haven't found another Samus to be any trouble.

I think I'll end here, but hopefully that added to the discussion.

 

[Shiri]

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[D1]

This was a really good read and I appreciated the shout-outs and conciseness of your well thought-out essay.

(stops meat-riding)

All in all, I agree w/ your post. I agree that Yoshi doesn't deserve his crappy spot in the tier list. I was watching Dire face one of the best Shieks in NYC "Jman" (he's REALLY good...even tho he choked @ VLS.) Anyhow, when he faced Jman's Shiek his Yoshi was gettin CGed to hell and yet he still managed to make it to game 3 and got the Shiek to his last stock. The Shiek needle camped, CG spammed, and even did platform CGs to the poor dino. It was hard to watch...but Dire still perservered w/ only Yoshi. It was a beautiful sight to see. Funny thing...during the whole set he didn't care about the outcome...and yet he managed to get him down to last stock. And yes, Jman does know how to fight Yoshi's...and yet Dire w/ his great mindgames managed to pull off alotta sweet and slick sh** to make the match look almost even despite the fact that every stock he lost he got CGed to death (yes he got out at certain percents...but that doesn't mean he can't get grabbed again >_>).

All in all, only thing I disagree w/ is the point made that Yoshi can't solo a tournament.

Yoshi can solo a tournament it all depends on the player and his experience and knowledge...and his endurance. Certain players after maining a low tier and losing for years...just throw up their hands and give up. Certain players after a while see something other players don't...and use it to their advantage when facing unbearable matchups...and succeed. Players like those are what change/defy the tier list. Yoshi has been proven to be a force to be reckoned with, generally speaking...but in the tournament scene...not sooo much.

IMO money may be a factor also in terms of people switching mains to top tiers...

...after realizing that they're wasting a 20 everytime they enter a tourney. They probably just get tired of losing and/or wasting money going to a tournament. Having blind faith in an overwhelmingly disadvantaged character isn't worth the amount of money they're losing, they suppose...so in order to up their chances of winning, they place blind faith in top tiers to up their chances of actually gaining a spot in the top 3 of the tournament instead of bottom 3.

I still <3 Yoshi tho...when Brawl comes out regardless of what changes are made...I'm maining him.

Right now I'm in love w/ Falco so its hard for me to pick up Yoshi unless someone tells me to...and its not cuz I'm tired of losing w/ Yoshi (thats the opposite ^_^) I'm just in love w/ Arwing Pilots...thats all.

 

[rmusgrave]

You're definitely right D1. I got tired of losing to Peach, so I started playing other characters to try and win. I cycled through a few characters before chosing Fox, simply because he has the ability to cheap out Peach the most effectively.

Still, your story about Dire's Yoshi is quite inspiring. I am tempted to try the matchup again and see if I can find something that will turn the matchup around. Which is pretty good, considering I have played Yoshi against my local Peach for so many years now that he has an amazing anti-Yoshi pressure game that I simply can't handle.

>_>

I'll give it a try next chance.

 

[Winnar]

Next comes the young man we all know and love. Me Bringer (see what I did there? With the strikeout? Clever, no?)

I laughed out loud when I read that. No lie. Funniest thing I've seen all day. N I GOTZ ME SUM STMBLPON 2 I NO RITE?

*cough* It's a little scary how easily I'm able to type like that now

Anyway, I really loved reading your...essay? I agreed with most of it, but I wasn't really sure what the main point is. Was it that Yoshi is underrated? Was it that Yoshi's come a long way? I can't really say for sure, all I know is that it was well written and I enjoyed reading it (and I do not enjoy reading).

If you're planning on replying with tl;dr, then you may as well stop reading here.

And uh...before I start talking, please keep in mind that I am probably more inexperienced than I let on. I watch a LOT of matches between basically every matchup that exists. I do not, however, have the chance to play with any of the people I watch, nor do I have the chance to play with anyone I would consider as good as the people I watch (most of you would be on that list, btw). I may end up saying something naive due to the fact that I have been isolated (by location) from real smashers. Of course, that all might change, since I moved to somewhere around D.C. (olol secretz). Who knows?

Right now my mantra of life has been, "If he can do it, why not me?" Fumi is a legend among Melee players because of his (or her?) mix of precision control, his ability to keep pressure on his opponent by using an unrelenting offense, and his using other players' unfamiliarity with Yoshi to his advantage. Precision control takes practice, which in essence is just a matter of time, the pressure is largely based on awe and shock mindgames where one-intentionally or not-forces the opponent into a defensive game the likes of which he or she neither is used to nor wants to be in, and as long as Yoshi is an obscure, tough to master character, Yoshi will always have the advantage of being less known.

Let me explain the third point first; almost all tournament goers I would assume know the theory of taking down a good Yoshi player. "Catch Yoshi in a double jump and gimp him," those kinds of things. But until that player actually learns effective ways to pull such gimpage off, it's nothing but theory and can only be so helpful. Do you understand? Imagine that Marth were an obscure character that hardly anyone played and Yoshi was top tier (if only). Before going into a match, we would think cleverly to ourselves, "Okay, try to get in close and be careful of his range, once I get in the match is mine." The advantage here is actually Marth's. You may know the key to victory, but Marth knows his spacing better than Yoshi knows Marth's spacing. Marth would use that to his advantage by catching the Yoshi mess up, and would use that slip up to combo and probably kill the Yoshi. I hope that makes sense. Now, back to reality...the key to victory here is being good enough to catch the opponent in the middle of a mistake (poor spacing, bad timing, anything) and exploit that mistake to the max. And then after they make that mistake, change things up a little bit; use different attacks, different approaches, different tactics-Yoshi has plenty of them-so that the opponent never quite regains that footing. Easier said than done, I know, but it is possible, and it is our biggest advantage. Unfortunately, it seems as though I've defeated myself with my own logic "Use this tactic to get the victory" sounds simple, but never quite is. It takes practice to make the opponent lose his confidence, his grip, and his cool; however, it's always going to be our biggest asset. Learn to use it on those unfortunate enough not to have Yoshi as a sparring partner.

Jumpstarting your own momentum as soon as the gates start can win the match, but what about the one after that? It is still possible to carry that momentum with you into what they assume is your worst stage and their best; the one they were told that in theory, will win them the match. Chances are, they feel more comfortable with their own stage, their home stadium. Shatter that confidence, and do it early, or getting your momentum back will be a thousand times harder to do. Above all, be confident that Yoshi is the better character, that you are the better player (if only because you were not dumb enough to underestimate your opponent), and that no opponent is too large to take down. Overconfidence is a champion's greatest weakness.

That's why I am always surprised that Yoshi is so low on the tier list. We have the element of surprise! With a bit of confidence, we could pull Yoshi out of this disgrace the tier list put him in. Shiri was right. Shiri said it best: We are the reason Yoshi is low tier. We are the reason Yoshi should be higher tier.

Maybe I'm too late in giving this speech. Maybe Brawl is where my focus should be. But I think that Yoshi has been done an injustice. I watch other characters and though there are some neat and innovative things that can be done with them, most of them deserve their ranking. There are only so many tricks up that character's sleeve. Yoshi has so much more to offer! Just watch any Fumi video, no two combo's are even alike! Why are there so many more different styles of Yoshi than nearly any other character? I think it's because Yoshi is the most unique character in Melee. Innovative is to Yoshi as Technical is to Fox. It just is.

Maybe I'm a coach in the game of Melee. I guess it would fit; I can't play the game, so I do the next best thing: I help those who do play, play better. Hopefully. Or maybe I waste their time.

And yes, Shiri, I knew you were hoping someone would take the bait and start a discussion. Well, here it is. The needlessly long reply you've been looking for.

Hum...sorry about the length and the melodrama of the whole thing, I'm kind of sleep deprived right now, but I saw Shiri's post and just got so excited.

 

[Shiri]

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[Winnar]

"Refresh themselves in the Yosh" Ah, I gotcha. Sort of a, "Let's get excited about Yoshi, again"?

Also, I think the hardest part about being Yoshi is practicing with Yoshi. The more Yoshi someone is exposed to, the easier it becomes to find patterns. Patterns, I suppose, are the enemy. They're so easy to fall into. "Okay, so I try a f-air to approach, then either jab twice or d-smash." Being confident in your control of Yoshi is one of your greatest assets. KNOW that you will connect with the f-air and that your window to jab or d-smash is so small that you can't wait to see if it will work. DO NOT EVER use the same approach twice, especially not twice in a row. There are plenty of other things you can do, if you notice they're shieldgrab happy, there's nothing a DJC'd neutral-B can't solve. Or even a throw! I remember trying to figure out how to use jabs effectively, and I noticed that Fumi was able to do what characters with real grabs are able to use jabs to do. Grab! The spacing and timing is tricky (to get off a running grab, at least), but it is possible.

Anyway, the point is that there's always a way to win as Yoshi. It's our job to figure out what we're doing wrong. I'm just stating things that I know I've found myself doing wrong. Hopefully if I preach it enough, I'll start following my own advice >.>

Speaking of neutral-B, though, I'm starting to think the best thing you can do is immediately throw an egg to where they'll escape. Combo'ing >>>> 2 or 3 hits of the b-air when they're in the egg.

D: <obligatory self-doubt passage>

Spoiler

Who knows, maybe I'm leading you guys in the wrong direction. I don't have any real experience, perhaps you'd be better off looking at my intent rather than my actual advice.

</obligatory self-doubt passage>

olol

 

[D1]

Good sh** Winnar and I'm happy to hear that Bringer ^_^ GAMBATTE!

 

[Winnar]

Hm...it feels odd posting only one line. Maybe I should try it more often, people might start reading what I say.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Lol hey shiri. Woot i was in one of your threads lol. But anyway, I think there are many ways for yoshi to climb up the tier list to middle. It is hard though. At a recent tournament, I played great during friendlies, and had some really great matches. but when it can time for some fights, I did get nervous and was punished for it. But basicly i think yoshi is near the bottom of the tier list becuase of how punishable he is. I don't like fighting sheik just becuase of the chain grab. My yoshi now can actually last alot long agaisnt peach now. Its still a bad match up though. Lol i don't like fighting mario's. You have to take that match slow, and pill by pill.

For fox I've found my yoshi can do well against some foxes. But gets stonned by others lol. I believe it has more with yoshi's air to ground game. If a fox is gonna stay on the ground and duke it out, Then i have a good chance. But if they through many n airs, shine grabs and what not. It puts much pressure on yoshi.

Marth I see as one high tier that I'm okay with yoshi playing against. One thing I found is that a high lv marth(112's or carter's if im not mistakin) don't always go for the ledge. That will F' up your edge hog game lol. But other than that, I say stay close to ground and watch spacing. RDJC is starting to become a good tool for me.

Hmm these are some good habbits that I believe help yoshi out alot., I've found you always want to make smart wavedashes and rolls to keep your oppents spacing off. Lol you don't want to get predictable. Also dash grabs are a great way to punish rolls. Wich can give you an upper hand in a match up. O and yoshi's N air is quite sexy, use the whole hitbox of it. Lately I've been finding it to save my tale from many oncoming attacks, and attacks that are already out. Everyone knows how important DI is. But what I've found recently to help me out is to di my air cancels also. Usually I would focus only on counter attacks after the air cancel. But combine that DI for maximum punishment. And neutral a's are a great way to relieve some pressure. Don't abuse it though because it can be read. Lol and I guess the last thing is to have fun with yoshi. Lol theres nothing worse then a moppy yoshi, makes me want to cry lol. Woot!!!! shout out to shiri for another great thread. O and I can't wait to play u and bloshi in some of the up coming GA tournies. Lol we can do a yoshi crew battle.

 

[Shiri]

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[Zozefup]

When I don't think they're going to sweetspot, I usually just d-tilt. Once they go low enough where I think they're going for ledge, then I try and grab the edge before they hit me. Well placed eggs can help with the edgeguarding as well, and all of this is easier said than done.

Edit: Rob_Gambino

 

[rmusgrave]

I liked your points on momentum Winnar, it is good that someone thinks about these things and lets people know. It's not a catch all thing though, the top tier players use momentum as well, and they have learnt to fight against momentum. It's a necessity but is far from a tournament winning strategy on its own.

In other words, it's important to not only know how to get the momentum going, but also to halter your opponent's on a mindgame level or even a low level i.e. stopping a combo.

 

[Winnar]

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing, how knowing how to use momentum is all fine and good in lower levels of play, but in tournaments with big names...maybe not so much?

I dunno, I do think everyone is susceptible to being on the wrong side of momentum (any Yoshi who's played a good Fox knows this for SURE). It's probably more complicated than I could explain without losing track of what I was explaining, so I'll take the lazy route and say "It's something everyone needs to find out on their own." Which is true, but I'm trying to help people at least think of things like momentum. "Lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink" sort of thing.

And lulz I was really excited when I typed that up. I think if you take what I say and ignore the enthusiasm and exaggeration, then you'll have what I really am trying to say. (Curse you English classes! Curse you and your making me used to writing long winded essays!)

Also LOL I moved in range of Chudat's biweeklies. Winnar is WHO?

 

[UNBlizzard]

im not reading this post
its too long
your all crazy

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

good read:D you've inspired me to play Yoshi more than Marth Yoshi is my fav game character of all time, but i don't play as him cus i thought he was a bad char.

 

[Seba]

I remember my first days playing Melee, when everybody was telling me to not pick Yoshi because he sucked so much.

As I was becoming better and playing good people, I realized he was not the best character in the game, however when played correctly and smart, I was pretty sure he could hold his own against most characters. Top Tiers are a pain for sure, but I think those matchups become extremely fun when you get used to them. Most Yoshis love the Marth matchup. I think it's pretty challenging to find an opening on Marth, but when you finally can you can bring some **** to him. Another matchup I love is the Samus matchup. Egging her when she's recovering can be very frustrating for the Samus player. My thought is that the only characters that **** Yoshi horribly are Fox, Falco and Sheik.

I soloed a tournament with Yoshi at 2006, I remeber getting to the Semifinals when I had to fight the best Falco in my country at that time. It was so frustrating I just wanted the first match to end and pick Fox or Falco to counter him. However I decided to give Yoshi a chance and then I began to play better, finally beating him in close matches. It was really hard to win that tournament with only Yoshi, but it sure felt amazing. I remember that I even called my girlfriend to tell her and she was like "What the **** are you talking about, who the hell is Yoshi" and stuff. So I think Yoshi players should give him a chance at tournaments, even if it is against a Space Animal.

I liked this thread a lot, it's good to see that there are more Yoshi players who think he is not bad.