10/24/09 - DK AN' FRIENDS (and books too), Lafayette (LA)

[Varuna]

Laffy crew presents
DK AN' FRIENDS.
MELEE TOURNAMENT, (atleast one setup available for brawl friendlies and blazblue)

Saturday, October 24th.
@
And Books Too
3315 Johnston St
Lafayette, LA 70503

EVENTS:
+registration opens at 11 AM

+Tournament starts at 12:00 with teams then singles then draft crews.

+Singles is $5.00

+Teams is $5.00

+the venue closes at 7:00 PM

+we will be sharing one side of the building with a Yu-Gi-Oh tournament(lol)


RULES:

4 stock
8-min. time limit
Items set to None
Best 2 out of 3
Double Elimination - 60/30/10 cash split


Stage List:

Neutral

Battlefield
Dream Land 64
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Yoshi's Story


Counterpick

Brinstar
Corneria
Fountain of Dreams
Kongo Jungle 64
Mute City
Poke Floats
Rainbow Cruise


Banned

The rest


The Procedure:

Game 1 is played on one of the neutral stages. At this time, both players stage strike, meaning that each one of you eliminates one stage until one is left, then you play on that stage. Pen and paper will be available for double blind character picking and disputes over who strikes first stage will be resolved by coin toss.

For all following games of the set:
1. The winner of the previous game strikes a stage then picks a character.
2. The loser of the previous game picks a character.
3. Winner strikes 2 more stages.
4. Loser picks stage.


Please note That in both cases stages are being STRIKED and not banned, meaning for a stage to not be playable for a game it must be striked FOR THAT GAME.


Extra rules:

Wobbling IS allowed, but it must not go beyond 200% to prevent excessive stalling.

Dave's Stupid Rule is applied - A player may not pick a stage that he/she has already won on.

Termina and Mushroom Kingdom 2 are legal for teams.

FoD and Mute city are not legal for teams.

Draft Crew rules:
After the singles tournament, (if time allows) a draft crew battle will be held.

The first and second place winners from singles will be team captains, with the second place player getting first pick for teams.
I doubt this will be a problem, but each team will have no more than 13 people (More on this later).

Rules for the battle:
Each team writes down the player that will play first and the character they chose.
Players will strike from the neutral stages to find a stage to play on.
When "Player 1" wins with 2 stocks at 100% damage, a new player from the other team will come in and player one will start the next match with 2 stocks at 0% and must remain the same char from the first round.
The entering player can counter pick the winner from the last match.

OK this is where we dont know what to do. the winner isnt allowed to change characters because of the one time use rule, so should counterpicking be allowed at all? if it is, i'd say either you can only cp from the neutrals (including FoD) or they can cp from all the stages but the winner gets like 4 stage strikes.

The games will continue on until one team is out of players.

Special rule for this crew battle:
Each character may only be used one time. The only time you may see the same character used is in the first match where both teams double blind pick. Let's say the first game is fox vs marth. NEITHER team may pick fox vs marth for the rest of the tournament. shiek and zelda count as 2 different characters. This is why teams can go no higher than 13 people.


Semi's, finals, and grand finals will be recorded.



ON TO THE IMPORTANT ****:
There will be 3 pecan pies present at the tournament baked himself by the legendary FLAREFOX.

1 of them will go to singles winners.
1 of them will go to teams winners .
and the third will will be distributed among those that bring a setup.

So if you really want a piece (I'm looking at you Eet) Bring a setup.

I'm aiming for atleast 4 setups for melee alone, one setup for brawl friendlies and one setup for blazblue

so far I have

SETUPS:
1. Me.
2. Patrick.
3. Flarefox
4. Taylor
5.
6.
possible 7th
possible 8th???

ATTENDANCE:

Myself
Flarefox
ISBS
Taylor
Kyle






-----------------------------------------------------------------

Please post if you are attending/ bringing a setup.

 

[Wes!]

Note: TaylorHJ is also planning a fun pickup-crews tourney which will happen after teams and singles. If you want this to happen, bring a setup so that we'll have the time to play crews! We need as many setups as we can get - And Books Too has plenty of table space.

P.S. Lol @ pie announcement being larger and brighter than most of the tourney thread. That's what we all REALLY care about!

-Flarefox

 

[Entreri]

I don't really like the new counterpicking technique planned for this tournament. I'm going to think about it a little bit and then probably make a longer post explaining why. However, it might be an intresting choice for the draft crews battle, since you can't change characters in that.

Also, this is the second melee tournament I'm seeing stage striking for first round instead of random and the second one claiming pokemon stadium is more neutral than fountain of dreams, which I think is a joke. Anyone else want to comment on this?

 

[Sudai]

Kyle, I think the stage striking thing is fine, but I'll agree that FoD is more neutral than PS1.

The CP system however...that's kind of bad.. Matt, would you mind explaining why you're going with this over traditional counter picking?

 

[Varuna]

First things first is that am not going to be stubborn about this but I'd still like some more responses.

I currently do not have time to explain in full my (and wes's) thought processes but basically its this: That certain characters have several "*****" counter picks where as long as the loser of the previous match gets a certain stage with a certain character he or she has a very low chance of losing and the winner of the previous match's challenge is not so much on how to beat that character, or that character on that stage, but on how to avoid pretty much being killed by the stages.

Fox vs any character that can't come close to his movement speed can get poke floats banned then just chose rainbow cruise.

Jiggs vs any fast faller or crappy recovery can get brinstar banned only to go to mute city where she still has a pretty huge advantage.

We felt that situations like this were a little unfair or in the least made the competition a little more about the stage and less about the matchup. We didn't, however, want to ban these stages all together because we thought it possible that they would still serve as less common counter picks for certain characters in certain matchups, stages the winner of the previous match might not have thought about.

This system is an effort and an experiment on our part to solve this problem. We aren't saying the system is "perfect" or even "better" but we think its solid enough to try at one local tourney.

And like I said. If you all absolutely fricking HATE it then we'll change it back.

 

[Entreri]

I don't really have a problem with the stage striking, though I would be in favor of replacing pokemon with fountain of dreams.

Also, I'm still thinking about the CP system, It's hard for me to decide how it will affect the tournament. My first instinct is that it will make the CP very powerful. The important point if that is true is that while it will be harder to take a set 2-0, in the third round when the winner of the first set gets to counterpick it might be considered an easy win.

The reason I say it may be too powerful is because one of your stage strikes, as loser, is before you know your opponents character, and with your remaining two stage strikes you can be almost be guarenteed to play your opponent on a bad stage. The difference with the normal counterpick method is that you always have the choice to pick a character well suited to the stage your opponent selected.

To contrast the old and new CP systems I would say the old CP you counterpick the opponent with a stage, and in this new style you counterpick the opponent with a character primarily and a stage secondly.

I would be very surprised if anyone's attendence hinged on the CP rule, and personally, right now I'm a bit intrigued by it.

Edit after reading Varuna's Post: I agree with what you said about the old CP system. The fairness of the old system is in the winner picking their character after the loser selects a stage. If a fox main takes a peach main to rainbow cruise the peach player can try out their falco. If a jiggs takes a marth to mute city the marth can try their(... uhh...)Luigi.(anyway...) Sometimes with the current system counterpicks backfire into matches that are not really in any advantage to the loser of the first round because of the winner's character selection. In the new system the counterpicks will almost always lead to an advantage for the counterpicker, albeit possibly a more mild one. I think the end result is that the new system favors people like me who predominantly use one character, and it reduces the effectiveness of a player who is versed with alot of characters.

 

[Sudai]

Kyle basically summed up what I was wanting to say, but with more words. I won't add more words. I, as well, am more interested by the thought process. I'm only planning to go for fun (I've never placed in a real Melee tourney, lol) so the actual ruling doesn't matter much to me. I probably will fight for FoD as a starter over PS1 if I get the time, though. :x

 

[IShouldBeStudying]

I agree that FoD is more fair than PS1. +1 vote to making FoD starter over PS1.

 

[Varuna]

I don't really have a problem with the stage striking, though I would be in favor of replacing pokemon with fountain of dreams.

We were also thinking about doing the same thing except to FD. Hell maybe we could even remove both fd and ps from neutrals.

Also, I'm still thinking about the CP system, It's hard for me to decide how it will affect the tournament. My first instinct is that it will make the CP very powerful. The important point if that is true is that while it will be harder to take a set 2-0, in the third round when the winner of the first set gets to counterpick it might be considered an easy win.

The reason I say it may be too powerful is because one of your stage strikes, as loser, is before you know your opponents character, and with your remaining two stage strikes you can be almost be guarenteed to play your opponent on a bad stage. The difference with the normal counterpick method is that you always have the choice to pick a character well suited to the stage your opponent selected.

Keep in mind that you get to clear 3 stages from the table before the loser gets to pick and 2 of those stages after you know his character. whereas before you only get 1 and its set in stone for rest of the set. The number of stages you are allowed to strike is designed to make their stage selection less powerfull but still variable.

Im also having trouble understanding; you are saying that you think that the 2 stage strikes after you know the matchup are too little to ensure a fair stage for the winner of the previous match?

Sometimes with the current system counterpicks backfire into matches that are not really in any advantage to the loser of the first round because of the winner's character selection.

That combined with the fact that 1 ban is simply too little vs some characters that have 3 or even 4 really good stages for them vs just about anyone else is what led us to this.

In the new system the counterpicks will almost always lead to an advantage for the counterpicker, albeit possibly a more mild one. I think the end result is that the new system favors people like me who predominantly use one character, and it reduces the effectiveness of a player who is versed with alot of characters.

A more mild but definite advantage to the counterpicker seemed fair to us, but like I said we are not putting our fingers in our ear over this.



Originally we thought about just doing 2 or 3 stage strikes after both player chose their character then counterpicking and in that case we definitely thought there would be an advantage to exlcusive mains. We were thinking that putting one of the stage strikes before the players chose their characters means that a player who is more likely to change characters is also more likely to get only 2 good stages striked against him instead of 3.

Thanks alot for the feed back I consider us lucky that we got something other than snarling and gnashing of teeth.

 

['V']

I'm not really too keen on the CP system, but it wouldn't hurt to experiment. I'll wait to see how people prefer it for the next tournament that I do.

As for moving FoD to counterpick from last time, I just needed to move one stage down to make stage striking actually work since you need a odd number of stages to do so. The reason I chose FoD to move to CP was because I figured the general concensus of LA didn't like FoD. Not to mention it's supposed to ruin Captain Falcon and I wanted to try to make the list as fair as possible.

Though next time I am willing to switch the positions of FoD and PS if enough people want to do that. I like to try new things anyway.

Did anyone notice that I banned Japes? Because I did. Let me know what you guys thought of that.

 

[Wes!]

FoD and PokeStadium could be switched, but FoD and FD could possibly be switched on the 5 neutral stages as well. What do you guys think?

Also, our CP system's entire goal is to force the players to focus on the matchup on a relatively balanced stage where neither character has a huge advantage. Less of Fox on PokeFloats and Jiggs on Brinstar, etc.

 

[Entreri]

The reason I said the CP could be more powerful is only because the winner can't change their character after the stage selection.

Old style CP: Forced to play on lame stage = switch to fox/falco
New style CP: Pick character you want -----> play on stage with moderate disadvantage

In the spirit of fairness I think we should consider adding one more CP stage to balance the number of stages of a certain size. Specifically I think that the number of stages with high ceilings & far walls is the problem. Consider a peach player counterpicking a fox/falco who wants a big stage. If the fox/falco chooses they can strike Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64, and Dreamland 64, which are the three largest stages by far. If you look at the contrary when the fox in counterpicking the peach, small ceiling suiting fox are on Yoshi's Story, Poke Floats, Rainbow Cruise, and Corneria. The peach player can only strike three out of the four.

Sorting the available stages by size (walls and ceiling) I would list:
Small -------> Yoshi's Story, Corneria, Poke Floats, Rainbow Cruise =4
Meduim ----> Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium, Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Brinstar =5
Large-------> Dreamland 64, Kongo Jungle 64, Mute City =3

If I was trying to balance out the system, in my oppinion, I would consider reducing the total number of strikes to 2 or adding another large stage to the mix. Maybe Jungle Japes would suffice. Also, perhaps another rule that only one neutral can be striked in a turn? Honestly, if I had to play my Marth as a fox player I would just strike FD, FoD, Battlefield. Seems like the person being counterpicked really might get too much say.

Again, let me emphasize that this is just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Deleted member]

a few things:

i have the flu and it sucks!

is there any reason yall are having the laf. smash fest on friday? and what time are yall planning on meeting? im planning on going back to work friday but ill still be a little sick so i probably wont be wanting to stay up all night. i am off work saturday though. if saturday is unavailable for yall, ill probably have to miss this one. i talked to the rest of br and they said friday or saturday are both fine.

as far as the cp stage rule goes, im not excited about it; being one of those people that play lots of chars as kyle said. im willing to try it out, but i would do it with one strike before chars are picked and one strike after. we generally know everyone's best chars and imo there are 2 stages per char that are extremely broken. fox and falco are pokefloats and rainbow. fox is mean on corneria, but i really dont think its thats bad. just an advantage. peach and jiggs are mute and dk 64. there also good on dream land and brinstar, but again; not that bad. imo those are the chars that depend the heaviest on CPs.

but really it's what ever you want to do. i just dont think you should strip away so many stages. i wont really care what ever you decide. but after the tourney ill have a much better opinion.

oh and i would leave the neutrals as they are.

 

[Deleted member]

Draft Crew Rules

After the singles tournament, (if time allows) a draft crew battle will be held.

The first and second place winners from singles will be team captains, with the second place player getting first pick for teams.
I doubt this will be a problem, but each team will have no more than 13 people (More on this later).

Rules for the battle:
Each team writes down the player that will play first and the character they chose.
Players will strike from the neutral stages to find a stage to play on.
When "Player 1" wins with 2 stocks at 100% damage, a new player from the other team will come in and player one will start the next match with 2 stocks at 0% and must remain the same char from the first round.
The entering player can counter pick the winner from the last match.

OK this is where we dont know what to do. the winner isnt allowed to change characters because of the one time use rule, so should counterpicking be allowed at all? if it is, i'd say either you can only cp from the neutrals (including FoD) or they can cp from all the stages but the winner gets like 4 stage strikes.

The games will continue on until one team is out of players.

Special rule for this crew battle:
Each character may only be used one time. The only time you may see the same character used is in the first match where both teams double blind pick. Let's say the first game is fox vs marth. NEITHER team may pick fox vs marth for the rest of the tournament. shiek and zelda count as 2 different characters. This is why teams can go no higher than 13 people.

 

[Deleted member]

and i can bring a full set up with a tv + an extra tv

 

[Deleted member]

and im down for winterfest, kal.

 

[Varuna]

In the spirit of fairness I think we should consider adding one more CP stage to balance the number of stages of a certain size. Specifically I think that the number of stages with high ceilings & far walls is the problem. Consider a peach player counterpicking a fox/falco who wants a big stage. If the fox/falco chooses they can strike Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64, and Dreamland 64, which are the three largest stages by far. If you look at the contrary when the fox in counterpicking the peach, small ceiling suiting fox are on Yoshi's Story, Poke Floats, Rainbow Cruise, and Corneria. The peach player can only strike three out of the four.

Sorting the available stages by size (walls and ceiling) I would list:
Small -------> Yoshi's Story, Corneria, Poke Floats, Rainbow Cruise =4
Meduim ----> Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium, Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Brinstar =5
Large-------> Dreamland 64, Kongo Jungle 64, Mute City =3

If I was trying to balance out the system, in my oppinion, I would consider reducing the total number of strikes to 2 or adding another large stage to the mix. Maybe Jungle Japes would suffice. Also, perhaps another rule that only one neutral can be striked in a turn? Honestly, if I had to play my Marth as a fox player I would just strike FD, FoD, Battlefield. Seems like the person being counterpicked really might get too much say.

You thought about it in a way I didn't. I am going to read a bit and test the wall and ceiling distances to see if they fall into that organization so I can make a better choice about the cp stage list. You are right about some characters best stages being neutrals aswell.
We still have a alot of time till the 24th and its capable of changing all the way up till I shout out that registration is closed.

is there any reason yall are having the laf. smash fest on friday? and what time are yall planning on meeting? im planning on going back to work friday but ill still be a little sick so i probably wont be wanting to stay up all night. i am off work saturday though. if saturday is unavailable for yall, ill probably have to miss this one. i talked to the rest of br and they said friday or saturday are both fine.

Saturday might be just as good if not better. I will start calling people. get well soon.

as far as the cp stage rule goes, im not excited about it; being one of those people that play lots of chars as kyle said. im willing to try it out, but i would do it with one strike before chars are picked and one strike after. we generally know everyone's best chars and imo there are 2 stages per char that are extremely broken. fox and falco are pokefloats and rainbow. fox is mean on corneria, but i really dont think its thats bad. just an advantage. peach and jiggs are mute and dk 64. there also good on dream land and brinstar, but again; not that bad. imo those are the chars that depend the heaviest on CPs.

Our notion with 1 strike before and 2 strikes after was that, if for instance you banned brinstar against someone you thought was going to stay jiggs, but they changed to fox you would only get to ban pokefloats and rainbow cruise and you would have to fight them on corneria. On the other hand if you were absolutely sure that they wanted to play fox for the second match you could get all 3 of fox's amazing stages striked. If that player was fine playing either character he could wait and see what you strike and get his character's 3rd best stage regardless. Kyle's point that a not all 3rd or 4th best stages are equally powerfull for their respective characters was a good one. definitely going to think about this alot more and we might even play some sets with it on the upcoming smashfest or something. We still definitely don't like the current popular mlg system that hasn't been changed in ages.

and i can bring a full set up with a tv + an extra tv

pie

 

[Candul]

Im super excited about this! Me and 3 others are coming from houma :-)

 

[IShouldBeStudying]

Im super excited about this! Me and 3 others are coming from houma :-)

interesting. is this someone new? *rubs chin*

 

['V']

That's Mark. You've met him before, Ken.

Edit: I've made the Melee Backroom and sent out the invitations. People, check your PM's.

 

[Curlz]

It says a cash split in the first post. Were you able to get the gambling law lifted at AB2?

 

[Varuna]

Im super excited about this! Me and 3 others are coming from houma :-)

bring a setup!

It says a cash split in the first post. Were you able to get the gambling law lifted at AB2?

I never said it wouldn't happen. I talked to the venue host an he said he would have to run it by the venue owner. I got back with him and said it was alright as long as it wasn't too much money, which is why entree fee will be staying around 5.00


I still need to make a poster for this!

 

[Mohr]

Id love to go to a melee tourney but right now 2+ hrs is too far to drive form NOLA. Hope the tourney turns out well though.

 

[Deleted member]

you should hitch a ride with pritch.

 

[Varuna]

Id love to go to a melee tourney but right now 2+ hrs is too far to drive form NOLA. Hope the tourney turns out well though.

You will be playing for more than 4 hours so its worth it imo.

 

[Turazrok]

I wish I could go, I have no ride, but I'm working on it. Also, the double counterpick kinda screws some people over =/

 

[Deleted member]

tura, if worst comes to worse and no one else from br goes, maybe you can squeeze in with us. i think right now in my car its just me, tim, freddy and kal.