Meta 1.1.4 Marth Changes

[mmacola]

I know that his walking acceleration is up. I don't know how to prove it though.

Ledge get up, keep holding stick and compare side by side how fast it takes to reach the other side. Big Battlefield may be good for this since it's a long stage.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ledge get up, keep holding stick and compare side by side how fast it takes to reach the other side. Big Battlefield may be good for this since it's a long stage.

That's not what I mean. Ftilt then immediately walk away. Short hop backwards and keep holding in that direction so you turn around and walk away. Walk around in general.

^That's the proof but it isn't game data proof. It doesn't count unless that Japanese dude (forgot his name) releases the game files that have character mobility once again.

 

[mmacola]

That's not what I mean. Ftilt then immediately walk away. Short hop backwards and keep holding in that direction so you turn around and walk away. Walk around in general.

^That's the proof but it isn't game data proof. It doesn't count unless that Japanese dude (forgot his name) releases the game files that have character mobility once again.

It would still be good to see it in action.

Anyway, can anyone confirm increased knockback of upsmash? According to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/kill-percents-on-all-relevant-moves.408572/ upsmash should kill mario on 3DS omega gaur plain at 124%, and I'm killing him at 120% (edit: on the same conditions). Sorry if this has been noted already, didn't see it anywhere.

 

[Vipermoon]

It would still be good to see it in action.

Anyway, can anyone confirm increased knockback of upsmash? According to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/kill-percents-on-all-relevant-moves.408572/ upsmash should kill mario on 3DS omega gaur plain at 124%, and I'm killing him at 120% (edit: on the same conditions). Sorry if this has been noted already, didn't see it anywhere.

In training mode? (just making sure there's no freshness)

Also how do we know if the 124% is before or after the 3% dust cloud?

Do you have Dreamland? I believe that has the same blastzones as Wii U. I'm getting 107% on DL, 110% including dust cloud.

 

[mmacola]

In training mode? (just making sure there's no freshness)

Also how do we know if the 124% is before or after the 3% dust cloud?

Do you have Dreamland? I believe that has the same blastzones as Wii U. I'm getting 107% on DL, 110% including dust cloud.

Yes, in training mode. Don't know if the numbers on that thread reflected the dust cloud damage, thats pretty much why I asked it here instead of confirming it as a change . Don't have dreamland either, so I can't test it there.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes, in training mode. Don't know if the numbers on that thread reflected the dust cloud damage, thats pretty much why I asked it here instead of confirming it as a change . Don't have dreamland either, so I can't test it there.

I think Duck Hunt also has the same blastzones. Try that

 

[mmacola]

Nope, 120% as well.

Just asked a friend who hasn't updated hers 3ds version, and apparently it's 120% on theirs too. Oh well

 

[Vipermoon]

There was 99% chance it was placebo lol

 

[ElementUser]

Marth range changes confirmed through data mining!

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-final-content-1-1-4-patch-discussion.430033/page-14#post-20841443

EDIT: Included quote.

Since everyone's asking about Marth (and Lucina) hitbox changes...

Jab1, Jab2
Tipper hitbox X value change 6.5 → 7

Ftilt
Tipper X 6.7→7.7

Dtilt
Sour hitbox Y 3.2→2.7, X 15.2→16.7 (hitbox not tied to sword, those numbers aren't as silly as they sound)
Tipper hitbox X 6.7→8.2

Nair
Hit 1 tipper X 6.7→7.7
Hit 2 tipper X 6.5→7.5

Fair
Tipper X 6.7→7.7

Bair
Tipper X 6.7→7.7

Utilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Uair, Dair
Same hitboxes


tl;dr - sword/tipper is longer for many attacks and dtilt reaches further below the ledge

edit: orz, tad too slow

 

[Aanuj4444]

Damn im so glad that the range of the tipper hitbox increased

 

[Rewrite]

I would like to point out that for Marth's first jab, forward tilt, up tilt, and down smash, his end-lag in Smash 4 is faster than his IASA frames in Brawl for those same moves.

Brawl Marth's frame data taken from the Brawl Marth frame-data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-frame-data.204825/

Brawl Jab 1
Hit: 4
End: 35
IASA: 27
Shield Stun: 6
~Shield Hit Lag: 3
ADVANTAGE: -20
Tipper Shield Stun: 8
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE: -23

Wii U Jab 1
Active: 5F - 7F
Duration: 28F -> 25F

Brawl Forward Tilt
Hit: 7-11
End: 39
IASA: 35
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -22
Tipper Shield Stun: 12
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -27

Wii U Forward Tilt
Active: 8F - 11F
Duration: 36F -> 33F

Brawl Up Tilt
Hit: 6-13
End: 39
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -27
Tipper Shield Stun: 12
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -32

Wii U Up Tilt
Active: 6F - 8F, Late 9F - 12F
Duration: 36F -> 33F

Brawl Down Smash
Hit: 6, 21
End: 64
Shield Stun Hit 1: 14
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE: -52
Shield Stun Hit 2: 7
~Shield Hit Lag: 7
ADVANTAGE: -43
Tipper Shield Stun 1: 16
~Shield Hit Lag: 16
ADVANTAGE: -58
Tipper Shield Stun 2: 15
~Shield Hit Lag: 15
ADVANTAGE: -43

Wii U Down Smash
Active: 6F - 7F, 21F - 23F
Duration: 64F -> 54F

EDIT: removed d-tilt information with the confirmation of no changes to the move.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dtilt is unchanged.

Melee/Brawl/1.0.0 Smash 4/1.1.4 Smash 4

Jab 1: 25/27/29/25

Input for Jab 2: 20/20/20/17

Jab 2: 25/27/29/28

Input for Jab 1 after Jab 2: 20/27/29/28

Dash Attack: 39/49/49/49

Ftilt: 35/35/39/33

Utilt: 31/39/42/33

Dtilt: 19/21/23/23

Fsmash: 47/49/51/51

Usmash: 45/49/58/58

Dsmash: 61/64/64/54

Nair: 49/49/49/49

Fair: 29/33/37/37

Bair: 34/39/39/39

Uair: 45/45/45/45

Dair: 59/59/59/59

Grab: 30/29/29/29

Dash Grab: 40/40/35/35

Pivot Grab: NA/??/33/33

Shield Breaker: 44/52/52/50

Dancing Blade 1: 29/29/45?/41

DB2: 40/40/38/38

DB3: 46/46/43/43

DB4-Up: 50/50/50/50

DB4: 50/55/55/55

DB4-Down: 60/65/71/71

Counter window: 5-29/5-29/5-27/5-27

Counter: 59/59/59/59

Counter damage: 7/8 (x1.1)/8 (x1.2)/8 (x1.2)

Dolphin Slash landing lag: 34/34/23/20

Walk speed: 1.6/1.5/1.5/1.5

Run speed: 1.8/1.7/1.785/1.785

Air speed: 0.9/1.034/1.02/1.02

Aerial acceleraton: 0.7?/0.7/0.7/0.7

Fall speed: 2.2/1.5/1.58/1.58

Fast fall speed: 2.5/2.1/2.528/2.528

Fall speed acceleration (aka Gravity): 0.085/0.06715/0.075/0.075

Stuff you can't see: his received major nerfs in damage, hitbox size, inner hitbox removal, hitbox duration/active frames, lag on a few moves still, range on a few moves still, landing lag, major nerfs to pre-hitbox autocancels and post-hitbox autocancels, major knockback nerfs to throws, and many move specific nerfs (like Dair, Uair, and Dancing Blade).

 

[Rewrite]

Dtilt is unchanged.
Stuff you can't see: his received major nerfs in damage, hitbox size, inner hitbox removal, hitbox duration/active frames, lag on a few moves still, range on a few moves still, landing lag, major nerfs to pre-hitbox autocancels and post-hitbox autocancels, major knockback nerfs to throws, and many move specific nerfs (like Dair, Uair, and Dancing Blade).

These are all attributes that people are already well aware of. I chose specifically to focus on the frame-data because at the time that was what had been confirmed in the official patch notes thread. For those reasons though, you're post is considerably more useful than mine since it's far more complete.

 

[Vipermoon]

These are all attributes that people are already well aware of. I chose specifically to focus on the frame-data because at the time that was what had been confirmed in the official patch notes thread. For those reasons though, you're post is considerably more useful than mine since it's far more complete.

Oh, Dtilt did get a huge range increase which is in the patch notes. I was saying the duration of the move is unchanged.

 

[Rewrite]

Oh, Dtilt did get a huge range increase which is in the patch notes. I was saying the duration of the move is unchanged.

Oh yeah, I understood what you meant completely. When I noticed d-tilt was safer I automatically attributed it to frame data buffs instead of a range increase which would also make it safer.

ALSO WE HAVE THIS NOW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Dv7LY40_M&feature=youtu.be

Should we call this the "waiter combo" or the "tip-ah" (hoo-hah)?

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh yeah, I understood what you meant completely. When I noticed d-tilt was safer I automatically attributed it to frame data buffs instead of a range increase which would also make it safer.

ALSO WE HAVE THIS NOW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Dv7LY40_M&feature=youtu.be

Should we call this the "waiter combo" or the "tip-ah" (hoo-hah)?

That's not a thing. Dthrow didn't change, his jumps didn't change. Bair has slightly more range. Bair and Uair is stronger. In a real match, you can air dodge before hitstun ends (before the combo counter on training ends). This is why it never worked for us before.

 

[DariusM27]

That's not a thing. Dthrow didn't change, his jumps didn't change. Bair has slightly more range. Bair and Uair is stronger. In a real match, you can air dodge before hitstun ends (before the combo counter on training ends). This is why it never worked for us before.

The bitter sad truth, lol.

If anything, it might be somewhat more rewarding than before to go for throw combos at mid percents, when it has more chance to connect.

 

[DariusM27]

Can we talk about dtilts reduced knock back for a minute? Lol, I feel like I noticed that right away and haven't seen anyone else talk about it.

Like, I know I couldn't dtilt to connecting dash cancel fsmash on ike at 55% prepatch.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Can we talk about dtilts reduced knock back for a minute? Lol, I feel like I noticed that right away and haven't seen anyone else talk about it.

Is that a thing? I haven't seen the data yet. If anything is say it had more...

 

[DariusM27]

Is that a thing? I haven't seen the data yet. If anything is say it had more...

Non tipped dtilt seems to have less knock back, but I'd like some official confirmation and side by side proof to be sure.
I don't know about dtilt tipper though. Darn move was so hard to land prepatch anyway, lol

 

[Freelance Spy]

Non tipped dtilt seems to have less knock back, but I'd like some official confirmation and side by side proof to be sure.
I don't know about dtilt tipper though. Darn move was so hard to land prepatch anyway, lol

I'll say that double dtilt works more often, although people tend to get knocked out of range for the second hit. So I really don't think there is a change there.

Maybe someone would like to test if you can use dtilt into anything else?

I'd rather test jab to shield breaker and see how much of a window there is...

 

[A_Kae]

Dtilt's KB values are the same as last patch. 40 BKB and 40 KBG for untipped, and 50 BKB and 40 KBG for tipped.

Source: https://www.diffchecker.com/zq6ncwvg (scroll down to line 1660 or search for AttackLw3 for dtilt. The only things changed were hitbox positions)

Edit: for convenience, the relevant code:

Spoiler: 1.1.3

Extended_Hitbox(Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=7, Unknown=0x1E, Unknown=0x28, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x28, Unknown=2.7, Unknown=0, Unknown=3.2, Unknown=15.2, Unknown=0x19, Unknown=0.35, Unknown=0.7, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA, Unknown=0, Unknown=4.4, Unknown=9.2)
Hitbox(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=10, Angle=0x1E, KBG=0x28, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=2.7, X=0, Y=0, Z=6.7, Effect=0x19, Trip=0.35, Hitlag=1.25, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Unknown=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA)

Spoiler: 1.1.4

Extended_Hitbox(Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=7, Unknown=0x1E, Unknown=0x28, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x28, Unknown=2.7, Unknown=0, Unknown=2.7, Unknown=16.7, Unknown=0x19, Unknown=0.35, Unknown=0.7, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA, Unknown=0, Unknown=4.4, Unknown=9.2)
Hitbox(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=10, Angle=0x1E, KBG=0x28, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=2.7, X=0, Y=0, Z=8.2, Effect=0x19, Trip=0.35, Hitlag=1.25, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Unknown=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA)

 

[DariusM27]

Huh, that's crazy. Oh well, that's how it goes with patches when you don't read game data I guess. :/ thanks for the info

 

[haxfactory]

I'm thinking that these changes may see my Marth come out of my pocket soon. I've played him casually since launch (all through the laggy mess days really), but there was no way I was maining him like that. So I played mostly Fox throughout Smash 4 when I was playing serious. But now, especially with these extended hitboxes I think I can main him. Retreating fairs feel even better than they did before.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'll say that double dtilt works more often, although people tend to get knocked out of range for the second hit. So I really don't think there is a change there.

Maybe someone would like to test if you can use dtilt into anything else?

I'd rather test jab to shield breaker and see how much of a window there is...

Double Dtilt is within range more often due to the large range increase. In this case, the tipper isn't easier (which is good, sour Dtilt has better follow-up potential) because with Dtilt, they moved the sourspot the same distance forward.

 

[ElementUser]

How about Uair & Fair killing noticeably earlier though (like, 10-20% earlier)? Do they have increased knockback growth?

 

[Vipermoon]

How about Uair & Fair killing noticeably earlier though (like, 10-20% earlier)? Do they have increased knockback growth?

No just damage. And that is proved from the game data we have on him. Nothing received a knockback change for him this patch.

 

[FiXalaS]

No just damage. And that is proved from the game data we have on him. Nothing received a knockback change for him this patch.

Increased damage = increased knockback.

 

[Vipermoon]

Increased damage = increased knockback.

I knew someone was going to do that.

You guys should know what I mean because did I deny that his aerials killed earlier up there^? No. They obviously do.

"No knockback change" means in this context that there weren't changes to his knockback values.

 

[FiXalaS]

I knew someone was going to do that.

You guys should know what I mean because did I deny that his aerials killed earlier up there^? No. They obviously do.

"No knockback change" means in this context that there weren't changes to his knockback values.

Yea, sorry about that. (I didn't want the one who asked to think it's placebo)

So I wanna try marth when I get home, overall how are the changes doing him? any good?

 

[DariusM27]

Yea, sorry about that. (I didn't want the one who asked to think it's placebo)

So I wanna try marth when I get home, overall how are the changes doing him? any good?

Safer and more shield pressure. Full hop fair to fallingnair is safe and hard to shut down. Range boost is nice. Utilt combos are better. Uair or bair kill confirms from dthrow on some characters.

 

[Horseketchup]

Dtilt is unchanged.

Melee/Brawl/1.0.0 Smash 4/1.1.4 Smash 4

Jab 1: 25/27/29/25

Input for Jab 2: 20/20/20/17

Jab 2: 25/27/29/28

Input for Jab 1 after Jab 2: 20/27/29/28

Dash Attack: 39/49/49/49

Ftilt: 35/35/39/33

Utilt: 31/39/42/33

Dtilt: 19/21/23/23

Fsmash: 47/49/51/51

Usmash: 45/49/58/58

Dsmash: 61/64/64/54

Nair: 49/49/49/49

Fair: 29/33/37/37

Bair: 34/39/39/39

Uair: 45/45/45/45

Dair: 59/59/59/59

Grab: 30/29/29/29

Dash Grab: 40/40/35/35

Pivot Grab: NA/??/33/33

Shield Breaker: 44/52/52/50

Dancing Blade 1: 29/29/45?/41

DB2: 40/40/38/38

DB3: 46/46/43/43

DB4-Up: 50/50/50/50

DB4: 50/55/55/55

DB4-Down: 60/65/71/71

Counter window: 5-29/5-29/5-27/5-27

Counter: 59/59/59/59

Counter damage: 7/8 (x1.1)/8 (x1.2)/8 (x1.2)

Dolphin Slash landing lag: 34/34/23/20

Walk speed: 1.6/1.5/1.5/1.5

Run speed: 1.8/1.7/1.785/1.785

Air speed: 0.9/1.034/1.02/1.02

Aerial acceleraton: 0.7?/0.7/0.7/0.7

Fall speed: 2.2/1.5/1.58/1.58

Fast fall speed: 2.5/2.1/2.528/2.528

Fall speed acceleration (aka Gravity): 0.085/0.06715/0.075/0.075

Stuff you can't see: his received major nerfs in damage, hitbox size, inner hitbox removal, hitbox duration/active frames, lag on a few moves still, range on a few moves still, landing lag, major nerfs to pre-hitbox autocancels and post-hitbox autocancels, major knockback nerfs to throws, and many move specific nerfs (like Dair, Uair, and Dancing Blade).

Thanks for these numbers, jab1>jab2 data is hard to find online for characters was lookin for it before. Do you know any general resource that has more detailed frame data of jab windows for other characters? Kurogane hammer just has each single jab's FAF's.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks for these numbers, jab1>jab2 data is hard to find online for characters was lookin for it before. Do you know any general resource that has more detailed frame data of jab windows for other characters? Kurogane hammer just has each single jab's FAF's.

Yes I do actually. Thank @Thinkaman for this awesome resource. It is game version 1.0.4 but it's accurate for most characters. You can check various patch notes in the smash academy if you're worried that it isn't (for example, Link or Falco probably isn't with how many times their jabs were changed).

Weird fun fact: Lucina's jab 2 window is frame 18, for some reason 1 after Marth.

Edit: oops forgot to paste it

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

 

[Horseketchup]

Yes I do actually. Thank @Thinkaman for this awesome resource. It is game version 1.0.4 but it's accurate for most characters. You can check various patch notes in the smash academy if you're worried that it isn't (for example, Link or Falco probably isn't with how many times their jabs were changed).

Weird fun fact: Lucina's jab 2 window is frame 18, for some reason 1 after Marth.

Edit: oops forgot to paste it

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Sweet this is a great resource right here, exactly what I was lookin for. Just to clarify, when it says "tranistions on frame 20", does that mean frame 20 would be the first frame of jab 2's start up? Or would it be frame 21?

So for 1.1.4, would this mean Marth's jab 2 first hitbox is out frame 19 or frame 20? Jab transition stuff kind of confuses me lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sweet this is a great resource right here, exactly what I was lookin for. Just to clarify, when it says "tranistions on frame 20", does that mean frame 20 would be the first frame of jab 2's start up? Or would it be frame 21?

So for 1.1.4, would this mean Marth's jab 2 first hitbox is out frame 19 or frame 20? Jab transition stuff kind of confuses me lol.

I believe that means the first frame of the move is the frame after. So 21 or 18. But I don't know for sure

 

[Horseketchup]

I believe that means the first frame of the move is the frame after. So 21 or 18. But I don't know for sure

Thanks, either way good to know his jab is a bit safer now