[#01] Meta Knight MU Discussion Thread 2010

[napZzz]

Bait. Hard. Throw out random Usmashes, sh Uairs and shff bair's, learn how to isjr consistently, stutterstep, etc. When I'm playing this MU I just try as hard as I can to bait the MK into a dashgrab, then go for my favorite string.

Stomp -> read the airdodge/nair/dair and get a gerudo -> Dtilt -> read the fair/dair/airdodge and get that second gerudo -> Dtilt -> follow into the air, bait the rising dair, and punish with an Uair -> and try to land the fsmash when it recovers with a stupid option since he just took ~75% and murder the *****.

I'm dead serious about this, so many MKs do this it's ridiculous. However afterwords, this string is obviously not going to work again, unless the MK is a complete moron.

From here on out, just camp as hard as you can. MKs main approach is running up, throwing their shield up, and waiting for a spotdoge or a roll to punish. Spam pivotgrabbing as soon as you see the MK make that first dash towards you. Do NOT try to approach, as a Ftilt or sh Fair will **** anything you try to approach with. If you get an MK offstage, do NOT go out after it. You will lose, wait for it to come back to you and try to punish it's recovery.

Tornado will be beaten out by a nicely timed Ftilt or Fsmash. I prefer going for the up angled Fsmash. If they're on the edge while you're closeish to it, they'll try either a ledge drop into a dj fair or airdodge into a buffered Ftilt. Hold up your shield, and if you see them airdodgeing, go for the punish with a jab or the ftilt if you think you have enough time. If they attack your shield with the fair, wait for it to finish and grab if they're close enough, or just roll away if they aren't.

Do your best to avoid the grab at all costs. If the MK plays smart, a grab is pretty much a stock. If you're above the MK, be extremely careful about when you airdoge, or you'll eat a nice shuttle loop. There really isn't a safe way to recover against a MK. I try to recover low and hope that they just go for an edgehog and mistime it.

If you're above a mk, get back to the ground as soon as possible. Don't try to **** around and be fancy trying to stomp him midair, because, again, a smart MK will just throw a tornado underneath you and send you right back up into the air.

That's all I got for now. I'll try and get some vids from the tourney I'm going to this weekend. Also, this is all just stuff that I've observed recently. If you have anything you disagree with or want to add, go right ahead. That IS what this thread is for after all.

Breezy goin in hard!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

isnt dtilt supposed to be great vs mk? it has great range and is a lot quicker than a lot of ganon's other moves, on the mk boards they said to look out for ganon's dtilt

does anyone know how to get back to the stage when being juggled?

 

[Exalted]

I'd just Warlock Punch the *******.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

If you know you're boned (and most of the time when juggled off-stage by MK you are) you might throw out a Ganoncide and hope to catch him. If you're still at the point where you can recover somehow, U-Air him away and go for the fast-fall recovery. Hope that he doesn't catch you on the way down.

 

[PK-ow!]

Copypasta for great justice

Do keep in mind that apparently I was wrong about ftilt on block. HOWEVER, a player may not be aware of the answer, or may screw up the timing (with shield stun) and just shield DI or something else bad.


I stand by every other tip in there. dtilt is still dtilt. It's just less friendly with the other spacing facts.

How to play vs. Meta Knight:

1 . First you want to get into
1. Unplug their controller
2. If 1 doesn't work or there are too many unskewered eyes in the venue.... ****, you'll actually have to play the game.

Okay.

3. Don't jump.

If you jump, you get juggled. If you get put offstage, you take 80%, and then juggled or gimped. If MK juggles you or gimps, you die. (Dying means you lose)

This rule contradicts a later point where I'm going to say to Thunderstorm. Well too bad. Don't ****ing jump. This means don't reflex DAir when he gets "in your space" like a ****ing '08 Ganon. March '08 Ganon. It doesn't accomplish anything anyway, even if you cross MK up.

We learned Ganon has risk reward. In this matchup, you don't take risks. You play perfectly.

4.
Ganon has one option to stop a basic walk-up, and that's ftilt. This ftilt is safe on block, but only if you get him with the sole of the boot, not any closer. Else he shieldgrabs.
However, it's safe in the sense you can do something before MK can hit you... but you'll be forced to shield + something if he runs up right after blocking. Remember though that he has to *run*, and at that distance it means DA, Dash grab (which has a goofy box from MK), or jump aerial, no normals. JC Usmash is punishable f10 at least after shield drop and is completely abuseable if spot dodged, so it's just inferior to DA; don't worry about it. He can't dash up shield unless he stops right in front of you, and Ganon's grab (lag) is faster than his insemination (when he gets serious). In short: Don't answer options he doesn't even have.

Thankfully, ftilt also has a range that compares to Ganon and MK's roll such that the threat of walk-up ftilt from you is real pressure. MK has to do something before you get to that range, unless he's planning to dodge. This opens you into Fsmash game, Ganon's general slow brutal murdering techniques, and what I'm getting to called "Ganon's mixup."
Oh, and perfect shield dtilt. On reaction. I'm not even joking.


For other kinds of approaches, you've got pivot grab - sliding pivot or not. (To slide, enter the grab at about the point the sound finishes, or when you could have foxtrotted. It's a friction effect for Ganon, so it has to do with where his foot is.) Ganon's grab, surprisingly, will get MK out of the air, but you had to already have cleared a certain distance. The slide is, if applied in the situation I want to communicate, safe on whiff, if you use only when MK is in the air, and he doesn't Dimensional Cape, because he can't cover the horizontal distance.
To shore up pivot grab's goofiness, if terrain is flat, or you're retreating into lower ground, there's thunder storming. TS makes it hard for MK to roll around underneath you, but it will lose to "wait". (The pivot grab is helped by uneven terrain.)
I need to stress TS in this MU is about taking initiative. TS before he gets under you; see how fast his reaction is, and what he likes to do with split seconds. You're showing ownership of your space, you're flinging your strongest box around, the one that kills MK in five. You hope to hit but you don't expect to. But if you could possibly be read into doing it and whiff punished? It's a bad reflex, stifle it. Mix in more grab / footsie.
You only do it because of him rolling around. And he will start rolling around, because if he doesn't he can't really move. His super F/DAir makes it look like he's mobile, but he's barely more mobile than you. He sucks out of dash. Without Roll you can corner him in so many ways, plus Fsmash is basically only answerable with roll, even if on reaction.
(btw, don't Dsmash. NAir is better.)


5.
If MK becomes very aerial, or jumps from far away and comes in from the vertical, you've got Usmash if you can actually nail the moment of his descent (MK's aerials can't clash with attacks; Tornado doesn't work 'down'). I stress "vertical", I mean 90 degrees. Abuse that IASA and act between MK's jumps so you either hit, or can shield and get away if he jumped again.

If he's not vertical, but is 'aerial' in the sense I mean here, he's hanging around your head. For that, he's obviously going to play around your A, but what you've got is a pivot grab as said, a slide effect out of your dodge if you want it, a nice roll, and BAir. There's an art to using BAir in a way that won't be caught by the sword, that will hit MK sooner than he thinks, and gives you a kind of initiative if it actually deters as an air anti-air. (Ganon should land before MK). Remember BAir only works for an MK "up"; one or two air jumps above the ground, for him. BAir sucks a-t-g.
BAir ends up being the move you use the least, because it's really bad if baited, but you hope to make it the one that sticks out in your opponent's mind the most, so he underestimates your movement tools.


6.
So understand his (MK's) dilemma here. He can't go through jab (although he'd love to cut your hand with his FAir; don't be tricked). So either he gets into the air and comes from mostly above that line, or he gets within your bubble first and comes up from below it. You have less ways to hit him if he comes from above, but keep cool and he actually has little ways to hit you. Refer to step 3. Roll, stay center stage, dash around (for pivot grab). Think ahead to when he runs out of jumps, save shield because you can't let Nado stab it. Just don't ****ing jump. Not even if your Uair would hit, don't ****ing do it.

A few small words: If you have tons of shield, sure, its not in your favour, but you can let MK come down through it. When he's low on jumps, he can't repeat rising DAir too many times; what he'll do is aerial, then something else to keep you blocking, then something on block or a get-away/grab. Answer these, of course, by waiting for the moment he's the one who can choose wrong, and either block something unsafe, or calmly drop shield (/ roll a grab) and chase his get away. You have to do this sometimes or MK can always land when he wants, by telegraphing this very attempt.​

When he comes in from low, he's got one set of tools which have basic answers from you, and the other set of tools which are the "strong" ones you'll actually see. Study his grab box; it's actually crap, and I paid for it SO LONG not knowing when it wouldn't even connect. Answer this 'low' approach with pivot grabs, TS, ftilt when he ****s up or hesitates.


His 'high' approach is better for you IMO, with payoff, but it requires a higher energy level. A lot of interactions go on in a second in this situation. The low approach is simplistic and at a low energy level, which MK styles may disfavour, but it lets him work on you psychologically more. You have to blank your mind and be inherently random while still paying attention, when playing the low game. Might be good to forget about predicting, and make him the one who has to predict. If you predict all the time, you just betray what your fears and expectations are. The high approach isn't mindgames, but technical interaction. You need air control, focus, foxtrotting / pivot grabbing (which I don't have consistently...), and not just any pivot grabbing but control over the two kinds relevant here; you need to move on the ground without taking eyes off of him in the air; if the stage isn't FD, you need awareness of the terrain and the consequences of the irregularities. Oh, and I understate this all the time, but you need to know how fast you walk, how fast MK jumps, falls, and drifts. You have to piece the (implied) numbers together to see the spatial relationships as they could work out a couple dozen frames from now, unconsciously (as unconsciously as you link Choke -> dtilt on peeps by now).


7.
Apply all of the above, and if the opponent isn't perfect (<==> the opponent makes a mistake (<==> if you've got a bloody chance in Hell) ), the opponent is going to lose his positioning. He's now close but not too close, has no momentum, has no frame advantage, and is probably "landing" (past the point of jumping).
You now apply "Ganon's mixup".
Ganon's mixup is the following garbage:
Dash up, Choke.
Dash up, Dash Attack
Dash up, stop (true pivot cancel, ideally), chase response.

Ganon's DA beats any attack, jump, and is situationally good on rolling. Choke beats shield, nothing, and late attacks.
The 'dash up' is because you've got to make most of 'em look like Dash Attack even though shield ***** it. There's a certain distance you use the Choke or DA from where you'll stop more than a leap from MK if you go through invincibility. You're trying to do this though where he'll feel too at risk to roll; you want to gel him; mostly, don't take the 'mixup' but rather look for an Fsmash, getting him to block at tip... or that ftilt.
If he indeed dodges you're kind of boned, but that's connected to the third item there, and this eighth point:


8.
If Meta Knight rolls, sidesteps, or air dodges, murder him.
I said don't jump up there. Okay, really, don't jump. But now you've got Air choke, Smashes, Nair, and BAir. Air Choke combines seamlessly with kara BAir. NAir is for MKs who haven't technically mastered the stringest requirements of his pressure. But make sure MK is 50%+ or he'll attack you after hit. BAir still sucks air to ground.

Gauge whether dtilt or ftilt is going to kill this stock. Depends how much ftilt staled. (I've forgotten, does ftilt stale on shield?) In actual practice, I've found ftilt still kills when it should off Choke.


9.
You now hit the opponent. Congrats. Don't chase him, because you've got nothing. Start over. Either MK lands far away or does an air approach. Watch out for Nado, but get reasonably close to his landing point. Don't get too close to edge, don't get overeager. Unlike the Snake matchup, MK can get that landing, and you don't need to keep it from him to win.


X.
Remember that some things MK does aren't safe on hit at low percents, or situationally. ftilt from him at tip give you time to make him uncomfortable, if you don't screw up and turn around or shield, but consciously roll or shield pressure him back. NAir, likewise, actually terrible if it doesn't induce tumble.
Don't play afraid of these attacks; you literally want to get hit by them, as they're the best opening you'll see.



tl; dr

BAIT.

Or, you know, lose. Three straight stocks. While he toys with you seeing how many unpunished Tornadoes he can get off. Or gives you one stock, to see how long it actually takes you when he DIs, and how many trades he can get because of his parallel-rules-moveset bs + your reckless spacing. I know people really do this.


So there's my analysis.

Opinion on the matchup: 0:100. Ganon can't win you scrub. You actually thought this would help you win? Dair dair dair Nado Meta Knight da bess, scrub.


[clipped]



Murder

 

[Bahamut777]

I'll open the Snake thread soon. You people can still discuss, if needed, and, please, vote for a final ratio.

I'm still up for 85:15.

 

[Exalted]

I'll go for 80:20 ratio.

 

[Dumbfire]

90 : 10
Or just state it 0 : 100 to let the MK sandbag as hard a possible lol

 

[Exalted]

Official Ganondorf versus Meta Knight matchup ratio - 69:69

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

id say its 25-75 or something, unless they're good at planking, then its probably 00-100

 

[Dumbfire]

Ranging from 25:75 to 00:100, realisticly unwinneble.
Kthanxbai

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

80-20 in Meta Knight's favor.