0-death Chaingrabbing Fox on FD

[townes]

So I'm sick and tired of grabbing fox on FD and not converting the grab into a kill. I know M2K has been doing it for god knows how many years, but somehow the exact follow ups off of certain DIs at certain percents are still not common knowledge.
So, I am going to flesh out every single follow up on fox off of the grab in order to lead to guaranteed death or the highest possible percent before nairing them at like 140 or whatever it turns out to be. I was playing Armada today and he told me to delay my uairs when I was going for the million uairs to nair combo when fox does not want to DI left or right. By delaying the uairs(letting fox tumble in hitstun longer and waiting until marth is closer to the ground), you get 1-2 more uairs before the nair because fox does not go as high. The second important thing he said is that non-tipped uair is very good for setting up for an fsmash and subsequent edgeguard. Non tipped uair to fsmash will send fox at a much worse lower angle offstage whereas nair will send fox at a much more manageable (for fox) higher trajectory offstage.
I'm linking Kadano's thread because his answer to the CG at low percent is perfect, but he does not elaborate all the way to the kill, and I'm linking my chaingrab tutorial video because my options for finishing the CG were frankly not good enough in today's metagame. Finishing off the chaingrab early with fsmash or ftilt or finishing the chaingrab with a high nair are not optimal because they allow fox to survive. I don't want to be a lazy marth main. Let's kill our fox's when we grab them. If anyone has any info on the chaingrab that is hyper in depth, please post it. Otherwise, I'll have this done in the next couple of days.
http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8FmAs4rM7A&list=PL3Z01NXawoQceMjbPnuegbh4C_ECzAKOZ&index=12

 

[AirFair]

Sounds good. When this is done, it's probably going on the guidelist. Btw, how was WTFox singles? I wanted to watch one of your matches but I don't think I caught it. How was playing Armada? happy you got that chance.

 

[Kadano]

I started analyzing Marth’s chaingrab on Fox and Falco two or three months back. My goal was to create a flowchart video from 0 to death. When I realized how many options and other things I have to consider making this, I decided the total amount of time is not something I want to put in for free.
I might continue with this project in the next months, but it will take very long to finish.

I can already tell you that Marth’s chaingrab is harder than most people think and Fox / Falco have options to break out of it that hardly anyone knows about or incorporates into their gameplay. So basically, there’s a good chance that laying down the full details will make the chaingrab situation better for the spacies.

 

[townes]

Thanks kadano. I won't post anything that will help the species. And if you do decide to finish that project, I'd love to see the numbers. Promise I won't tell any foxes.

 

[TheKobanator]

Darn, that's pretty disappointing.

 

[townes]

I'm pretty dejected. I spent an hour just trying to flesh out every single DI option and follow up to uthrow on fox at 44 and 46%. Then I realized that if I did something like a SH uair at 46% no DI, I would have to then account for all the different DI options out of the uair by fox. And smash DI, forgetaboutit. I am going to go practice the chaingrab on 20XX fox and see if I can't up my 0-death consistency.
I feel like the point at which people get lazy is after they get through the pivot grabs and utilt regrab they opt for the uairs to nair or immediate tipper (neither of which kills with appropriate fox DI which is not difficult). So I'm going to continue working up to the utilt regrab and try to get an uair regrab on slight and no DIs and regrab on strong away and behind DIs. Lots of pummels and then uthrow -> non tipped uair -> tipped fsmash. Will post results of training. Also I'm going to watch some M2K videos for inspiration and plagiarism of techniques.

 

[Rlagkrud]

I can already tell you that Marth’s chaingrab is harder than most people think and Fox / Falco have options to break out of it that hardly anyone knows about or incorporates into their gameplay. So basically, there’s a good chance that laying down the full details will make the chaingrab situation better for the spacies.

I kind of disagree with the mentality of not putting out information because it'll help the other party.
If you know some unknown techniques for spacies and not releasing them just because you want Marth to win, isn't that a pretty selfish way to prevent development?
I'm not saying this to be a jerk; I love all the work you do Kadano.

 

[Kadano]

I kind of disagree with the mentality of not putting out information because it'll help the other party.
If you know some unknown techniques for spacies and not releasing them just because you want Marth to win, isn't that a pretty selfish way to prevent development?
I'm not saying this to be a jerk; I love all the work you do Kadano.

I never said I’m withholding it because it would help Fox. In fact, I have documented quite a few situations of Marth vs. spacies which showed better options for the spacies. So I don’t think accusing me of character bias is justified here.

If I tell you right now what these options are, people will ask me to explain in detail. (Due to the mentioned number of things I have to consider, this will take very long though.) Or maybe someone will play with it on his own and post information that’s only partially true. I don’t want either of these to happen. I want to go through with it, but the time I need to explain everything about Marth’s chaingrab properly and with every aspect considered is just really, really high. So far, I’ve worked ~15 hours on it, and that covered more or less two percent of the total workload. Because of the way Melee’s physics work, I don’t see any way to speed up this process (character animations’ hurtbubble rotations are too complicated that I could substitute testing in Melee with reconstructing the physics and calculating outside of emulation within a reasonable amount of time).

All my previous post was supposed to do is to give everyone who wants to flesh out the chaingrab completely an idea of just how much there is to it and how long it takes to analyze the entirety of it. Sure, you can write some roughly approximate flowcharts in a short time, but these will always have errors or aspects left out. So basically, don’t assume you can create a complete guide / reference on it unless you are willing to put hundreds of hours into this project.

 

[townes]

I think his main reason for not is the sheer time and manpower required to fully cover all options. The fact that he's not doing it probably works in our favor because if fox's had access to that document, 0-death would cease to exist on FD. I don't think he's trying to actively not expand Melee. I think this would take an incredible amount of time and effort and probably 2 people.

 

[1MachGO]

I started analyzing Marth’s chaingrab on Fox and Falco two or three months back. My goal was to create a flowchart video from 0 to death. When I realized how many options and other things I have to consider making this, I decided the total amount of time is not something I want to put in for free.
I might continue with this project in the next months, but it will take very long to finish.

I can already tell you that Marth’s chaingrab is harder than most people think and Fox / Falco have options to break out of it that hardly anyone knows about or incorporates into their gameplay. So basically, there’s a good chance that laying down the full details will make the chaingrab situation better for the spacies.

I think his main reason for not is the sheer time and manpower required to fully cover all options. The fact that he's not doing it probably works in our favor because if fox's had access to that document, 0-death would cease to exist on FD. I don't think he's trying to actively not expand Melee. I think this would take an incredible amount of time and effort and probably 2 people.

If I had to speculate, the only two situations I could see the chaingrab getting neutered is correct combo DI on utilt and survival DI on fsmash. If we are talking about optimal chaingrab research, it might be best to forgo looking at those options since they are gimmicky at the end of the day.

The best approach would be to reduce Marth's options to the ones that only launch the opponent at 90 degree angle. Since DI can only change the angle by ~17 degrees, the Marth should always be able to follow up at a sufficient height.

i.e. uthrow, uair, usmash

To be more clear, I don't think creating a chaingrab flow chart should be the goal. Rather, the best method would be to identify options which definitely work. Regrab is the best option and if uair/usmash don't work in its stead then we know other aerials are guaranteed to work.

So I am curious about:
1. The highest percent Marth can build with just uthrow regrabs
2. At the highest percent, can Marth get uair regardless of DI?
2a. If so, can he get a regrab to recreate the situation? If not, I imagine you can continue to uair juggle
3. Is there a percent usmash (tipper or middle; never sides) useful?
3a. Can Marth set up a usmash KO like Fox or Pikachu on fast fallers? I honestly doubt this, but if its humanly possible to achieve with only uthrows and uairs, it is technically the most optimal option.

Marth doesn't have Falcon's knee, Sheik's fair, and a pretty **** usmash hitbox. His strength isn't really killing from the grab but rather getting the opportunity to do so. Mark my words, the optimal Marth chaingrab of the future will be building percent with regrabs, get a couple uairs, create a DI trap with nair/fair, then secure a KO with an edge guard. Fsmash will become a mix up rather than the go-to kill option.

 

[PlamZ]

To get the kill, I usually sacrifice the % to get a F-smash close enough to the ledge that I can then switch to edge-guard mode. Aftr the second utilt regrab I usually go for weak-fair F-smash or just Pivot F-smash depending on their DI.