『SHIN MEGAMI TENSEI』Protagonists Support Thread. (Awaiting Reincarnation...)

[SNEKeater]

Just noticed rewatching the trailer that Nahobino can summon 2 swords at once, one for each hand. At least in cutscenes

Edit: trailer is officially uploaded.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Every trailer makes Nahobino coming to Smash that much more obvious.

 

[Lyncario]

I just watched the trailer and man, it's amazing. I gotta heavily agree with one of the top comment posted on the trailer of the Atlus channel, the gameplay to cutscene ratio is amaizng, it's what other story-heavy games should try rather than just showing a bunch of cinematics, rather show a short number of them and some important moments, and also a lot of gameplay. Definitively one of the coolest trailers I saw, and makes me very hype for the game.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I wonder why the digital preorder takes such a significantly longer time to pop up than the physical one. It's not like that requires the preload to be available already for fear of spoilers.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

I've cancelled my premium pre order on amazon and ordered it from the Nintendo store since it comes with extra stuff, so hopefully it arrives OK. I've not heard great things about the Nintendo store, but it's a bit late now.

Also:

Spoiler: Daily Demon #57

Lachesis

Also also:

The new trailer looks really good. I really want to know more about the police officer though, he looks cool.

 

[amageish]

I've cancelled my premium pre order on amazon and ordered it from the Nintendo store since it comes with extra stuff, so hopefully it arrives OK. I've not heard great things about the Nintendo store, but it's a bit late now.

Also:

Spoiler: Daily Demon #57

Lachesis

Also also:

The new trailer looks really good. I really want to know more about the police officer though, he looks cool.

I'm glad they're at least doing a rotating restock on the premium edition, even if the original launch was... rocky to say the least. I am sticking with normal at the moment, but I can't say I am not jealous of that book...

I'm quite curious about the Lawful organizations/characters this time around in general... Definitely a different angle then we usually see in it, at least from the prevailing theories/discussion.

Also, I guess this is a Smash thread... So I'll ask... If we have multiple Nahobino race fighters with similar powersets, do we get multiple Nahobino in Smash?

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #58

Spoiler

Next is Asura.

Mishaguji can also be spotted during today's showcase so that's another returning demon.

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #59

Spoiler

Asura with Critical Spirit (makes the next attack a guaranteed critical hit), Freikugel and Megidolaon. Next is Orochi.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Seriously guys, watch this video.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

This is an example of the growing Megaten fandom’s creative work and it is really good.

 

[SNEKeater]

Seriously guys, watch this video.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

This is an example of the growing Megaten fandom’s creative work and it is really good.

Just started to video to see if the video brings some points or "hints" I've might missed, and the first thing I hear is

"Persona 5 blew up because of Smash"

Okay. That's not true lmao.

I mean, Smash obviously helped because well, it's Smash. Any series will gain exposure thanks to Smash due to it's crossover nature. But Persona 5 was already popular before of Smash. All the praise, grow in interest and awards for the game didn't came because Joker was announced in Smash, all of that happened before.

Now I'll continue the video, but I just wanted to point that out lol

 

[amageish]

Huh, SMTV is trending on Twitter, at least in Canada. Doesn't seem to be for any one particular reason, but GameStop has revealed it is in the Top 10 most pre-ordered Switch games of the summer, in a solid 5th place, sandwhiched between Pokemon Legends: Arceus and Pokemon Brilliant Diamond.

"Persona 5 blew up because of Smash"

Okay. That's not true lmao.

I mean, Smash obviously helped because well, it's Smash. Any series will gain exposure thanks to Smash due to it's crossover nature. But Persona 5 was already popular before of Smash. All the praise, grow in interest and awards for the game didn't came because Joker was announced in Smash, all of that happened before.

Oof lol. I think you can argue Smash Bros inclusion greatly impacted the type of fandom P5 has (you know, the "Don't mess with us P5 fans; we haven't played the game" memes), but it was a breakout success before Smash...

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Just started to video to see if the video brings some points or "hints" I've might missed, and the first thing I hear is

"Persona 5 blew up because of Smash"

Okay. That's not true lmao.

I mean, Smash obviously helped because well, it's Smash. Any series will gain exposure thanks to Smash due to it's crossover nature. But Persona 5 was already popular before of Smash. All the praise, grow in interest and awards for the game didn't came because Joker was announced in Smash, all of that happened before.

Now I'll continue the video, but I just wanted to point that out lol

This is from a new Persona 5 fan’s perspective, she thinks it is mostly because of Smash because that is how she and everyone she knows got into Persona.

From the perspective of someone who has been a fan of SMT and Megaten since 2009 I can say that when the original Persona 5 came out in Japan it was not really a big thing compared to other RPGs. Persona 4 Golden being one of the best Vita games gave Persona some spotlight it previously didn’t have, but even then that game didn’t even sell 1.5 million copies until the Steam port and that was the best selling Persona game. Before Joker came to Smash Persona 5 barely had outsold Persona 4 Golden on two consoles with like ten times the install base of the Vita each.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Before Joker came to Smash Persona 5 barely had outsold Persona 4 Golden on two consoles with like ten times the install base of the Vita each.

Persona 5 has sold 2 million copies worldwide, the highest sales in the series

The latest game in the Persona series has done very well for itself.

www.vg247.com

false. That's like twice the amount P4G did on Vita. JRPGs are just niche games that rarely pull crazy numbers like 10+ millions, unless you're Final Fantasy or Pokemon, and the Vita did exactly appeal to that niche crowd to help Golden's success in the platform (similarly to the high attachment rate of Nintendo games on the WiiU despite the pitiful hardware series).
I think outside of stuff like Mother and Fire Emblem in the west, people overstate how much Smash influences a series sales.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Persona 5 has sold 2 million copies worldwide, the highest sales in the series

The latest game in the Persona series has done very well for itself.

www.vg247.com

false. That's like twice the amount P4G did on Vita. JRPGs are just niche games that rarely pull crazy numbers like 10+ millions, unless you're Final Fantasy or Pokemon, and the Vita did exactly appeal to that niche crowd.
I think outside of stuff like Mother and Fire Emblem in the west, people overstate how much it influences a series sales.

Person 4 Golden sold 1.48 million on the Vita, it was one of the Vita’s best selling games. RPGs are the reason the Vita lived as long as it did in Japan.
Persona 5 was at just above 2 million copies sold before Joker came to Smash for over a year’s worth of sales. That was excellent for Atlus and Persona, but Persona 5 has now dwarfed that thanks to Smash(in thanks to people like the one who made the video who hated RPGs when Persona 5 came out).

 

[SNEKeater]

This is from a new Persona 5 fan’s perspective, she thinks it is mostly because of Smash because that is how she and everyone she knows got into Persona.

From the perspective of someone who has been a fan of SMT and Megaten since 2009 I can say that when the original Persona 5 came out in Japan it was not really a big thing compared to other RPGs. Persona 4 Golden being one of the best Vita games gave Persona some spotlight it previously didn’t have, but even then that game didn’t even sell 1.5 million copies until the Steam port and that was the best selling Persona game. Before Joker came to Smash Persona 5 barely had outsold Persona 4 Golden on two consoles with like ten times the install base of the Vita each.

I mean, I can totally understand your first point. For people who weren't aware of the series and knew it existed thanks to Smash, it will obviously feel like Smash made Persona popular. But I do not agree with that because that's not the whole truth.

I got into the series during 2017, the year P5 came out in the West. At that point I think I already heard about the series on the internet a few times, but that was it. Then P5 came out, and in the following months everyone, including both the media and fans, were praising the game on social media, forums... basically everywhere. My curiosity for the series grew because of that and then I played Persona 5.

So again, Smash made Persona more popular? Yes, I agree with that. Did Smash made Persona popular? Nope, I don't agree with that.

As I said in my previous post, Persona was already a hit among the general public before Joker's reveal for Smash. And by public here, I mean dedicated players, which is still a big audience. I'm not talking about casual players that don't consume videogame news and just stick with super popular games such as FIFA, GTA, Mario Kart or Assassin's Creed.
Persona 5 success was a combination of word by mouth, unanimous acclaim from public/journalists, and viral videos and memes there was a ton of that, and I remember it well because I did see a ton of memes and random P5 related videos on Youtube back then. To the point where you could hear Last Surprise in random videos not even related to Persona 5 or videogames.

And all of that was already a thing before Game Awards 2017. When the list of nominations came up and Persona 5 was one of the contenders for best game of the year, I definitely remember that making some noise. No one expected that despite P5 being so critically acclaimed, a niche series such as Persona would be able to make it to the list of best games of the year in a big western awards show. That did help to bring more eyes into Persona 5 and the whole franchise.

Joker's reveal, which happened at the next edition of the Game Awards, took place like almost 2 years after Persona 5's western release. At that point the game was definitely a popular game, and was widely considered as the JRPG of the generation so far.

Then Joker in Smash happened, and yes, that evidently helped the series a lot. I don't deny that. Just wanted to clarify that P5 was a popular game before Smash. In terms of sales, well, even if it sounds kinda dumb... popularity =/= sales. A game or a character can be super popular thanks to multiple factors, but that doesn't necessarily means all these people you see talking about it have actually bought and played the game. Everyone who has been playing games for some years definitely has heard or recognizes Mega Man in some of his multiple incarnations, but then you find out that the series has never crossed the 2 million mark for any of it's releases.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Huh, SMTV is trending on Twitter, at least in Canada. ...in a solid 5th place, sandwhiched between Pokemon Legends: Arceus and Pokemon Brilliant Diamond.

This is one of the reasons Nahobino basically has to come to Smash as the final fighter.
SMT V is basically sandwiched between the Pokémon releases in terms of dates too. In November the Gen 4 remakes will be the talk of the town for holiday releases, and right after that Arceus comes to launch Pokemon into new heights. Without Nahobino in Smash Atlus and Nintendo will have killed SMT V half a year ago.

I mean, I can totally understand your first point. For people who weren't aware of the series and knew it existed thanks to Smash, it will obviously feel like Smash made Persona popular. But I do not agree with that because that's not the whole truth.

I got into the series during 2017, the year P5 came out in the West. At that point I think I already heard about the series on the internet a few times, but that was it. Then P5 came out, and in the following months everyone, including both the media and fans, were praising the game on social media, forums... basically everywhere. My curiosity for the series grew because of that and then I played Persona 5.

So again, Smash made Persona more popular? Yes, I agree with that. Did Smash made Persona popular? Nope, I don't agree with that.

As I said in my previous post, Persona was already a hit among the general public before Joker's reveal for Smash. And by public here, I mean dedicated players, which is still a big audience. I'm not talking about casual players that don't consume videogame news and just stick with super popular games such as FIFA, GTA, Mario Kart or Assassin's Creed.
Persona 5 success was a combination of word by mouth, unanimous acclaim from public/journalists, and viral videos and memes there was a ton of that, and I remember it well because I did see a ton of memes and random P5 related videos on Youtube back then. To the point where you could hear Last Surprise in random videos not even related to Persona 5 or videogames.

And all of that was already a thing before Game Awards 2017. When the list of nominations came up and Persona 5 was one of the contenders for best game of the year, I definitely remember that making some noise. No one expected that despite P5 being so critically acclaimed, a niche series such as Persona would be able to make it to the list of best games of the year in a big western awards show. That did help to bring more eyes into Persona 5 and the whole franchise.

Joker's reveal, which happened at the next edition of the Game Awards, took place like almost 2 years after Persona 5's western release. At that point the game was definitely a popular game, and was widely considered as the JRPG of the generation so far.

Then Joker in Smash happened, and yes, that evidently helped the series a lot. I don't deny that. Just wanted to clarify that P5 was a popular game before Smash. In terms of sales, well, even if it sounds kinda dumb... popularity =/= sales. A game or a character can be super popular thanks to multiple factors, but that doesn't necessarily means all these people you see talking about it have actually bought and played the game. Everyone who has been playing games for some years definitely has heard or recognizes Mega Man in some of his multiple incarnations, but then you find out that the series has never crossed the 2 million mark for any of it's releases.

Persona’s popularity has skyrocketed far more than you think because of Smash, a lot of people who want Persona 5 don’t own Sony consoles. If Persona 6 is multi platform(if the rumors of Persona 6 using Unreal Engine 4 are true then this will probably happen) you will see a Breath of the Wild vs Twilight Princess kind of jump with Persona 6 getting close to selling 10 million copies without an enhanced version and leaving Persona 5 in the dust.

Mega Man is a victim of being a popular character within video games before video games were actually popular and a lot of his popularity doesn’t even come from video games.

 

[SNEKeater]

About the video, I did finish watching it. First of all I'm gonna say it's very cool edited. Kinda surprised because IDK, I was expecting something more... normal? Most Smash videos I've seen about speculation aren't really that good when it comes to editing lol. Anyway:

- She talks about the whole thing about Pass 2 having one extra character, and how they remarked on that fact when they announced Pass 2, when they show the image with the 5 new fighters and then they add another one. This can be easily explained as them remarking Pass 2 having one more character because the first one had 5, while Pass 2 has 6. People always assumed a potential second Fighter Pass would have 5 fighters. Them giving CP11 some special "attention" when they announced the second Fighter Pass isn't because it's Nahobino and "hey Smash Ultimate has been just a disguised promotion for SMTV all these years" lol

- She mentions how SMTV was announced at the Switch presentation. This is obviously true, and probably implies there was a partnership for this title going on between Atlus and Nintendo since the beginning. This isn't really a point for Nahobino in Smash if you ask me. It obviously helps the whole narrative because it shows there was a compromise between both sides since the very first Switch presentation. But this reasoning could be applied as well to other series that also appeared there and not just SMT.

- About the whole "Sakurai could have got special access to SMT V or Nahobino", I mean, as I said multiple times in the newcomer speculation thread, I think it's possible, to the point I think I was one of the few people that thought the timeframe offers enough margin for that to be possible. That doesn't mean I think Nahobino is a lock for CP11, though, because it's still an unlikely situation. But I do kinda agree here, it could happen if they planned Nahobino as a DLC character time ago.

- The cross promotion of SMTV coming out around the same time as Nahobino would make sense, that is evident. Nintendo is certainly pushing the game and obviously a Smash character, close or around the release of SMTV, would help the game and the series.

- Nintendo publishing SMTV in Europe is definitely a good sign for this theory, but I mean, it's not exclusive of SMTV. Ace Attorney during the Nintendo DS days was also published by them in at least Europe, I think, and maybe the same happened with the Layton series. I say maybe because I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but I'm not that familiar with Layton games so I'm not entirely sure. The point is, Nintendo helping third party companies with publishing some of their games in certain regions doesn't inherently mean something for Smash. Otherwise Phoenix Wright should have been in Smash since at least Smash 4.

- Nahobino being in the front center in every piece of SMTV material is... not really a point unless I miss something here? Like, yeah, she's saying they're pushing the character a lot so people will see his face everywhere on the internet and make him more familiar to those people even before SMTV launches. That just feels like stretching things out a lot. I know this is not the most convincing argument in the video, but of course a company is going to push their game using the protagonist. That's just common sense.

- Okay. Arguing that Persona 5 was added as "bait" for SMTV is just... dumb. Like, I can see what she's trying to say, and it would be okay if it was just a joke or something like that. But she's kinda actually saying "Joker was just added to bait Persona fans so they eventually become more familiar with SMT once Nahobino is added". Like... maybe Joker was just added because Persona 5 was a very popular game, that happened to caught Nintendo's eyes, and then got added to the game to try to appeal a different demographic? That definitely sounds more logical to me.

I could see the logic behind this point if Nahobino was added shortly after Joker or as the first fighter of Pass 2, if I'm being generous, because not all the people sticks around as much as we do. People who buy 1 or 2 DLC characters for Smash because they're big fans of said fighter usually play the game a few weeks and that's it.

- At the end she talks about all the effort they're making in promoting SMTV. This is true and this is definitely the game with the biggest marketing effort Atlus has done so far. Nintendo is helping with that as well, at least in Europe. I'm convinced Atlus would be pleased to have Nahobino or a different SMT character in Smash, but that choice is obviously up to Nintendo. If Nahobino wasn't CP11, Atlus would still promote their game a lot, as they originally planned.

Persona’s popularity has skyrocketed far more than you think because of Smash, a lot of people who want Persona 5 don’t own Sony consoles. If Persona 6 is multi platform(if the rumors of Persona 6 using Unreal Engine 4 are true then this will probably happen) you will see a Breath of the Wild vs Twilight Princess kind of jump with Persona 6 getting close to selling 10 million copies without an enhanced version and leaving Persona 5 in the dust.

Mega Man is a victim of being a popular character within video games before video games were actually popular and a lot of his popularity doesn’t even come from video games.

I mean, yeah. Switch players begging for Persona 5 to get ported isn't news to me. And it's not surprising. A lot of people still has the notion that a Smash character has to have their games on Nintendo's console. Persona 5 was, as I sad, already quite popular before Joker got revealed for Ultimate. Then he got announced, and interest from Nintendo users in Persona skyrocketed. I remember when he got announced that absolutely everyone assumed "they're going to announce Persona 5 for Switch in the next Direct, wait for it!"... and well, here we are lol

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

About the video, I did finish watching it. First of all I'm gonna say it's very cool edited. Kinda surprised because IDK, I was expecting something more... normal? Most Smash videos I've seen about speculation aren't really that good when it comes to editing lol. Anyway:

- She talks about the whole thing about Pass 2 having one extra character, and how they remarked on that fact when they announced Pass 2, when they show the image with the 5 new fighters and then they add another one. This can be easily explained as them remarking Pass 2 having one more character because the first one had 5, while Pass 2 has 6. People always assumed a potential second Fighter Pass would have 5 fighters. Them giving CP11 some special "attention" when they announced the second Fighter Pass isn't because it's Nahobino and "hey Smash Ultimate has been just a disguised promotion for SMTV all these years" lol

- She mentions how SMTV was announced at the Switch presentation. This is obviously true, and probably implies there was a partnership for this title going on between Atlus and Nintendo since the beginning. This isn't really a point for Nahobino in Smash if you ask me. It obviously helps the whole narrative because it shows there was a compromise between both sides since the very first Switch presentation. But this reasoning could be applied as well to other series that also appeared there and not just SMT.

- About the whole "Sakurai could have got special access to SMT V or Nahobino", I mean, as I said multiple times in the newcomer speculation thread, I think it's possible, to the point I think I was one of the few people that thought the timeframe offers enough margin for that to be possible. That doesn't mean I think Nahobino is a lock for CP11, though, because it's still an unlikely situation. But I do kinda agree here, it could happen if they planned Nahobino as a DLC character time ago.

- The cross promotion of SMTV coming out around the same time as Nahobino would make sense, that is evident. Nintendo is certainly pushing the game and obviously a Smash character, close or around the release of SMTV, would help the game and the series.

- Nintendo publishing SMTV in Europe is definitely a good sign for this theory, but I mean, it's not exclusive of SMTV. Ace Attorney during the Nintendo DS days was also published by them in at least Europe, I think, and maybe the same happened with the Layton series. I say maybe because I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but I'm not that familiar with Layton games so I'm not entirely sure. The point is, Nintendo helping third party companies with publishing some of their games in certain regions doesn't inherently mean something for Smash. Otherwise Phoenix Wright should have been in Smash since at least Smash 4.

- Nahobino being in the front center in every piece of SMTV material is... not really a point unless I miss something here? Like, yeah, she's saying they're pushing the character a lot so people will see his face everywhere on the internet and make him more familiar to those people even before SMTV launches. That just feels like stretching things out a lot. I know this is not the most convincing argument in the video, but of course a company is going to push their game using the protagonist. That's just common sense.

- Okay. Arguing that Persona 5 was added as "bait" for SMTV is just... dumb. Like, I can see what she's trying to say, and it would be okay if it was just a joke or something like that. But she's kinda actually saying "Joker was just added to bait Persona fans so they eventually become more familiar with SMT once Nahobino is added". Like... maybe Joker was just added because Persona 5 was a very popular game, that happened to caught Nintendo's eyes, and then got added to the game to try to appeal a different demographic? That definitely sounds more logical to me.

I could see the logic behind this point if Nahobino was added shortly after Joker or as the first fighter of Pass 2, if I'm being generous, because not all the people sticks around as much as we do. People who buy 1 or 2 DLC characters for Smash because they're big fans of said fighter usually play the game a few weeks and that's it.

- At the end she talks about all the effort they're making in promoting SMTV. This is true and this is definitely the game with the biggest marketing effort Atlus has done so far. Nintendo is helping with that as well, at least in Europe. I'm convinced Atlus would be pleased to have Nahobino or a different SMT character in Smash, but that choice is obviously up to Nintendo. If Nahobino wasn't CP11, Atlus would still promote their game a lot, as they originally planned.



I mean, yeah. Switch players begging for Persona 5 to get ported isn't news to me. And it's not surprising. A lot of people still has the notion that a Smash character has to have their games on Nintendo's console. Persona 5 was, as I sad, already quite popular before Joker got revealed for Ultimate. Then he got announced, and interest from Nintendo users in Persona skyrocketed. I remember when he got announced that absolutely everyone assumed "they're going to announce Persona 5 for Switch in the next Direct, wait for it!"... and well, here we are lol

This is part of the reason why I wanted to show this to people. Her editing skills are great for such a small channel and she deserves more views. Her arguments are not the same as mine as far as Nahobino getting into Smash though, so I will try to explain why she is right or on the right track for most of them:

-First of all, we weren’t even sure we would get a 2nd pass because there initially wasn’t one. Some people might have expected 5 in the 2nd pass because the 1st one had 5, but there were quite a few people who were expecting like 3 at most because they knew the 2nd pass was not a sure thing but at the same time it was logical for Nintendo to make another one. The special emphasis on the 11th pack was brought to my attention by more people than just Ide when I too didn’t make much of it at the time btw.

-SMT V wasn’t just announced at the Switch presentation, it was given a long teaser trailer before the game even existed yet. No other 3rd party at the presentation had anything like this and few 3rd parties were even at the event. This was the presentation to show off the next Zelda and Mario and yet SMT V got almost as much time as they did at a closed Nintendo event. People wouldn’t even believe you if you told them that SMT V was revealed with the Switch and they didn’t watch the presentation, that is how strange that was.

-When you take into account just how many characters and franchises have actually been eliminated from the running and what choices Nintendo actually has from a marketing perspective SMT V becomes very obvious. The timing for SMT V’s development doesn’t just make Nahobino possible, it makes him a clear front runner for just that alone. No game except for SMT V has been on the minds of Nintendo since the Switch has existed in the market without ANYTHING in Smash.

-Again, it is not just a good way to push SMT V but actually a necessity for SMT V at this point. Nahobino in Smash means that SMT V goes from a niche series being purposely destroyed by Atlus and Nintendo by putting it up against the Pokémon 25th anniversary AND the Persona 25th anniversary, to a break out series selling Switchs and capitalizing on Persona’s continued growth to put it within range of the popular RPGs. Nintendo and Atlus know what they are doing by putting it right against Pokémon in the holiday season and focusing the limelight on SMT V via Smash.

-As you said it being published in Europe is a good sign for Nahobino in Smash. It means that Nintendo has quite a bit to lose if SMT V fails. This is the same Nintendo that put SMT V against Pokémon titles. As it stands now SMT V will be massacred by Pokémon in the holidays after the Persona anniversary already takes the wind out of its sails in September and then it will be left for dead before Arceus and more Persona stuff stomp on it to death. This is complete suicide without Nahobino in Smash.

-Look at the thumbnail of any trailer for any RPG ever. You will not see a close up of just the main character and literally nothing else multiple times in a row(there are close ups of newly introduced characters(like Mythra in Xenoblade 2) sometimes)for any of them except SMT V. Even the trailers that don’t even focus on Nahobino still have his face shoved in front of the camera(except the last one because they are trying to juxtapose Nahobino with the red snake woman as opposites due to her color scheme and also people have wanted to get info on her since we saw the box art so Atlus effectively told people she would be in the trailer by making her the thumbnail).

-This is the main point I disagree with her on. Persona 5 was not “bait”(although it will kind of work out that way until mainline Persona comes to Switch), it was an extra. You can claim Persona 5 was super popular before Joker all you want, but there is difference between a series that had sold 11 to 12 million copies in total at that point to a series like Metal Gear Solid or Sonic with multiple tens of millions of copies coming to Smash from other consoles. Persona was nowhere near popular enough to just jump to a Nintendo crossover event without any mainline games on Nintendo consoles, especially when SMT was right there waiting in line for a long time already. Persona would need to do absolutely insane numbers for Nintendo to use popularity as an excuse to choose it over a series already closely affiliated with Nintendo or any 3rd party on other systems that are easily 3 to 4 times more popular.

-Again, this goes back to Atlus and Nintendo setting up SMT V for certain death without Nahobino in Smash. All of this marketing will be a complete waste if all of the Persona fans interested in SMT V buy Persona games instead and all of the hardcore RPG fans with Switch consoles elect to take a trip down memory lane by buying the Pokémon Gen 4 remakes and Arceus instead of SMT V. The Pokémon Presents is already coming at basically the same time as the 2nd “news” section for SMT V, so the games are already starting to bump heads and it is only August.

 

[amageish]

This is one of the reasons Nahobino basically has to come to Smash as the final fighter.
SMT V is basically sandwiched between the Pokémon releases in terms of dates too. In November the Gen 4 remakes will be the talk of the town for holiday releases, and right after that Arceus comes to launch Pokemon into new heights. Without Nahobino in Smash Atlus and Nintendo will have killed SMT V half a year ago.

I’m sorry; are you suggesting ATLUS would have cancelled SMTV, one of their biggest upcoming releases, because Pokemon... exists? SMTV and Pokemon do not share a target audience; this is comparing a very casual-targeted monster collection game to a much more niche one.

I think you’re overestimating how much the industry revolves around big releases. The games industry is full of niche titles that are budgeted with the exceptation of selling under a million units. ATLUS is a company that produces a lot of niche stuff. Ergo, P5 selling 2 million and getting mainstream recognition through things like the GOTY nomination at The Game Awards was pretty big for it.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

I’m sorry; are you suggesting ATLUS would have cancelled SMTV, one of their biggest upcoming releases, because Pokemon... exists? SMTV and Pokemon do not share a target audience; this is comparing a very casual-targeted monster collection game to a much more niche one.

I think you’re overestimating how much the industry revolves around big releases. The games industry is full of niche titles that are budgeted with the exceptation of selling under a million units. ATLUS is a company that produces a lot of niche stuff. Ergo, P5 selling 2 million and getting mainstream recognition through things like the GOTY nomination at The Game Awards was pretty big for it.

Atlus could have easily scheduled the game to come out at a different time, or Nintendo could have scheduled Pokémon to come out at a different time.

You don’t seem to understand that a Gen 4 remake is not just going to have little kids or casuals who normally don’t buy games getting it, it is nostalgic for people my age and a little younger; and Legends Arceus literally DOES have basically the same target demographic as SMT V(I am for sure getting it and I haven’t bought a mainline Pokémon game in almost 20 years now)when that is coming out in January.

Atlus AND Nintendo expect SMT V to sell comparably to Persona 5, this isn’t a low budget game that can sell under a million copies without Atlus and Nintendo taking a considerable hit.

 

[SNEKeater]

This is part of the reason why I wanted to show this to people. Her editing skills are great for such a small channel and she deserves more views. Her arguments are not the same as mine as far as Nahobino getting into Smash though, so I will try to explain why she is right or on the right track for most of them:

Yeah, I've only watched this video but it certainly surprised me when it comes to the editing. Maybe I'll watch more of her videos.

-First of all, we weren’t even sure we would get a 2nd pass because there initially wasn’t one. Some people might have expected 5 in the 2nd pass because the 1st one had 5, but there were quite a few people who were expecting like 3 at most because they knew the 2nd pass was not a sure thing but at the same time it was logical for Nintendo to make another one. The special emphasis on the 11th pack was brought to my attention by more people than just Ide when I too didn’t make much of it at the time btw.

Yeah you're right, we weren't sure if a second Pass was going to happen. But most people felt it was a safe bet. I remember people speculated about more DLC but maybe not necessarily a full new Pass, that's why some might suggested 2 or 3 standalone DLC characters.

Of course that wasn't what ended happening. I don't blame anyone for thinking CP11 might be a special deal in some way at first, because I also remember being kinda surprised at seeing we we're getting 6 characters instead of 5. But I don't know, I think the most logical way to view it is that they made an emphasis on the sixth fighter not because said character is a special thing or anything like that, but because it was simply one more character than the last time.

I could be wrong though, but IDK, I think that perspective is the more likely one.

-SMT V wasn’t just announced at the Switch presentation, it was given a long teaser trailer before the game even existed yet. No other 3rd party at the presentation had anything like this and few 3rd parties were even at the event. This was the presentation to show off the next Zelda and Mario and yet SMT V got almost as much time as they did at a closed Nintendo event. People wouldn’t even believe you if you told them that SMT V was revealed with the Switch and they didn’t watch the presentation, that is how strange that was.

The teaser wasn't really that long. I assume you are talking about the one were Odin appears at the end, right? I don't know, I'm quite sure that teaser didn't even last a minute.

In any case, Nintendo wanted to convince people that their newest console was going to have a decent third party support, so it was natural that the presentation had a decent third party support in terms of announcements. We don't know (or at least, I don't remember it) if by that time SMTV was already confirmed as a Switch exclusive, but Atlus was a good partner of Nintendo, releasing a good amount of exclusive games on DS and 3DS, so it isn't that surprising Nintendo wanted to showcase SMTV's reveal there.

If people didn't believe the game was announced there it isn't because it feels like a lie but more because they probably don't remember it. I mean, if you're not a SMT/Atlus fan I think is understandable to not expect non-fans of the series to remember a brief teaser that only showcased like 20 shadowy demon figures from 4 years ago.

-When you take into account just how many characters and franchises have actually been eliminated from the running and what choices Nintendo actually has from a marketing perspective SMT V becomes very obvious. The timing for SMT V’s development doesn’t just make Nahobino possible, it makes him a clear front runner for just that alone. No game except for SMT V has been on the minds of Nintendo since the Switch has existed in the market without ANYTHING in Smash.

You're not really wrong here. Nahobino certainly fits with the "shill pick" and cross promotion idea that some fans have been anticipating for CP11, but I think you can realize that CP11 doesn't have to be a character like that, right?

For all what we know, CP11 could be a big fan request without a new game coming soon like I don't know, Isaac, Waluigi... or Crash, if we talk about third parties. Or maybe a character that barely anyone considered for Smash. It's hard to tell.

Like, I get why people are anticipating Nahobino as CP11. Byleth finalized the first Fighter Pass so some of them are just being pessimistic and assume it's going to be another "shill pick". But they could easily add a diferent character. In other words:

• It makes sense for Atlus and Nintendo? Yeah, totally.
• I'd like for Nahobino or a different SMT rep to be CP11? Yeah, I'd be quite happy with that.
• Do I feel it's a lock? Not at all.

-Again, it is not just a good way to push SMT V but actually a necessity for SMT V at this point. Nahobino in Smash means that SMT V goes from a niche series being purposely destroyed by Atlus and Nintendo by putting it up against the Pokémon 25th anniversary AND the Persona 25th anniversary, to a break out series selling Switchs and capitalizing on Persona’s continued growth to put it within range of the popular RPGs. Nintendo and Atlus know what they are doing by putting it right against Pokémon in the holiday season and focusing the limelight on SMT V via Smash.

I don't agree with this.
SMT isn't or wasn't being purposefully destroyed or boycotted by Atlus. That just doesn't make sense. A different thing would be saying they didn't invest that much effort into promoting the series until now, which is true. But also keep in mind that before SMTV, all the new SMT games have been handheld titles. Last time we got a "big" SMT game was during the PS2 days. Handheld games have inherently that stigma of being smaller games, and handhelds were the ideal platform for a lot of small series to keep surviving. You need less resources and time for a handheld game. That's why Atlus released a **** ton of games on 3DS, while after that we have only gotten Persona 5, the Dancing games, P5 Strikers (made by Koei Tecmo) and basically that's it when it comes to new game releases.

This has been also the case for other japanese devs that had a rough time going from the 3DS to create HD games.

While there's a certain overlap between SMT and Pokémon, SMT fans will still buy SMTV even if they pick up Pokémon. I think you can avoid potential buyers going with Pokémon instead of SMTV by doing a big push of marketing, which has been the case so far, and of course the game getting good reviews would also help, and will surely be the case considering Atlus hardly delivers a bad game.

I get your point and Nahobino in Smash would definitely help the game a lot, obviously him getting in as CP11 would give SMTV an extra push at launch and well, forever. As I said, it does certainly make sense, but Nintendo could easily go with a different character for different reasons.

-As you said it being published in Europe is a good sign for Nahobino in Smash. It means that Nintendo has quite a bit to lose if SMT V fails. This is the same Nintendo that put SMT V against Pokémon titles. As it stands now SMT V will be massacred by Pokémon in the holidays after the Persona anniversary already takes the wind out of its sails in September and then it will be left for dead before Arceus and more Persona stuff stomp on it to death. This is complete suicide without Nahobino in Smash.

I get the concern about SMTV being sandwiched by multiple Pokémon games and the upcoming Persona news, but I mean... the game is being strongly marketed so far by both Nintendo and Atlus, and I'm sure that the final quality of the game will generate enough word by mouth effect to mitigate any potential losses.

Keep in mind that the E3 trailer alone brought a decent amount of eyes into the series, at least with what I've seen so far. To begin with a good amount of Persona fans will jump into the series with SMTV, they will probably enjoy it and spread good things about the game, just like we will do.

I think you don't have enough faith in the game itself, while it has been looking amazing so far and Atlus seems very confident about what they're creating. SMT is (probably) never going to sell as much as Persona or be as popular as Persona, but it doesn't need to to be succesful and keep having new games.

Again, a Smash cross promotion would help not only SMTV but the entire series a lot. But you're talking about it like SMTV is gonna sell like super poorly, and I don't think so. It's probably going to surpass SMTIV sales in it's first few months, for example, and that alone would be a big success. Atlus' expectations are obviously going to be smaller compared to Persona 6, whenever that game comes out.

-Look at the thumbnail of any trailer for any RPG ever. You will not see a close up of just the main character and literally nothing else multiple times in a row(there are close ups of newly introduced characters(like Mythra in Xenoblade 2) sometimes)for any of them except SMT V. Even the trailers that don’t even focus on Nahobino still have his face shoved in front of the camera(except the last one because they are trying to juxtapose Nahobino with the red snake woman as opposites due to her color scheme and also people have wanted to get info on her since we saw the box art so Atlus effectively told people she would be in the trailer by making her the thumbnail).

I mean, I guess you're right? I could see why they would do that. Nahobino's design is certainly striking for the eyes, and quite pleasing for most people I'd say. After the E3 trailer he already became kinda popular even if his game is not out thanks to his design and the whole femboy aspect.

-This is the main point I disagree with her on. Persona 5 was not “bait”(although it will kind of work out that way until mainline Persona comes to Switch), it was an extra. You can claim Persona 5 was super popular before Joker all you want, but there is difference between a series that had sold 11 to 12 million copies in total at that point to a series like Metal Gear Solid or Sonic with multiple tens of millions of copies coming to Smash from other consoles. Persona was nowhere near popular enough to just jump to a Nintendo crossover event without any mainline games on Nintendo consoles, especially when SMT was right there waiting in line for a long time already. Persona would need to do absolutely insane numbers for Nintendo to use popularity as an excuse to choose it over a series already closely affiliated with Nintendo or any 3rd party on other systems that are easily 3 to 4 times more popular.

As I already said, popularity doesn't always ties to big number sales. Not every franchise will sell like crazy.

I guess you could view it that way, but you could also see it from a different perspective: Nintendo chose Persona over SMT because they were in talks with Atlus, then specifically wanted a character from them to improve their relationship, and they felt the natural option was Persona because it's Atlus biggest IP right now. Persona 5 being a big hit for the series probably also helped Nintendo to make the decision.

-Again, this goes back to Atlus and Nintendo setting up SMT V for certain death without Nahobino in Smash. All of this marketing will be a complete waste if all of the Persona fans interested in SMT V buy Persona games instead and all of the hardcore RPG fans with Switch consoles elect to take a trip down memory lane by buying the Pokémon Gen 4 remakes and Arceus instead of SMT V. The Pokémon Presents is already coming at basically the same time as the 2nd “news” section for SMT V, so the games are already starting to bump heads and it is only August.

But there's no Persona games coming out soon, and knowing how Atlus usually operates, there's not going to be a big Persona game anytime soon. And the upcoming announcements for the 25th anniversary of Persona aren't going to happen all at once. As they said, said reveals will take place between this year and Fall of next year. Even if the first reveal is Persona 6, the game isn't going to release until at least end of 2022, and that's being really generous if Persona 5 and SMTV are anything to go by.

In any case, I think you bring some interesting points, but the thing that kinda bothers me as I already explained to you a few weeks ago is that you're assuming Nahobino is CP11. Well, that's not really a problem, because each one can believe in what they want, but the fact that he's an absolute lock. Mostly because that doesn't give a really good image of SMT fans or Nahobino as a character to other Smash fans. A Smash fan that isn't interested in SMT at all but might be eventually into it once SMTV comes out will probably feel some fatigue against the series or Nahobino if he keeps finding people acting like Nahobino is a lock.

Not that different from when popular requests such as Dante, Ryu Hayabusa or Crash were seen as inevitable by a lot of fans. In the end by doing that you're going to alienate the people who feel indifferent about these characters. I know it's lame to be like that but it's hard to avoid.

What I'm basically saying: I think it would be better on your part if you didn't treat this as an absolute inevitability, even if you still think that. You would actually get more people sympathize with you idea if you presented your whole Nahobino theory in a more reasonable way and without calling him a lock.

If you want we could keep the conversation via private messages so that way we won't bother this thread, but as you already know I'd be actually be pleased with Nahobino as CP11. So it's not like I'd hate the idea.

 

[amageish]

Atlus could have easily scheduled the game to come out at a different time, or Nintendo could have scheduled Pokémon to come out at a different time.

You don’t seem to understand that a Gen 4 remake is not just going to have little kids or casuals who normally don’t buy games getting it, it is nostalgic for people my age and a little younger; and Legends Arceus literally DOES have basically the same target demographic as SMT V(I am for sure getting it and I haven’t bought a mainline Pokémon game in almost 20 years now)when that is coming out in January.

Atlus AND Nintendo expect SMT V to sell comparably to Persona 5, this isn’t a low budget game that can sell under a million copies without Atlus and Nintendo taking a considerable hit.

Sorry, I should be clear: I do think Pokemon fans will buy the Pokemon game, but I also think most SMT fans won't go "Welp. Pokemon is out, so I guess I'll just entirely pass on the game I have been waiting literal years for!". Obviously money is finite and I'm sure some people will have to make tough decisions in the short-term, but I imagine most people who are both SMT and Pokemon fans will eventually buy both. There also isn't a holiday release window where there won't be a lot of competition for video games; it is a competitive.

I also imagine ATLUS likes money and wants it to do well, but also... This is a game very clearly using assets from Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE, a proper Nintendo-ATLUS collab that sold 36,868 physical units in Japan on first release and they gave it a Switch port anyway. I'm sure ATLUS wants the game to do as well as possible, hence the high-profile marketing it has gotten since friggin' pre-production, but I also don't think most businesses set their minimum standard to be the best-selling game you've had in recent memory.

I do think SMT is going to get content in Smash, even if it is a just a spirit event. I just don't think they are relying on Smash Bros as their primarily form of adverting - or, at minimum, I don't think you can definitely prove that through pre-emptive inductive reasoning.

In any case, I think you bring some interesting points, but the thing that kinda bothers me as I already explained to you a few weeks ago is that you're assuming Nahobino is CP11. Well, that's not really a problem, because each one can believe in what they want, but the fact that he's an absolute lock. Mostly because that doesn't give a really good image of SMT fans or Nahobino as a character to other Smash fans. A Smash fan that isn't interested in SMT at all but might be eventually into it once SMTV comes out will probably feel some fatigue against the series or Nahobino if he keeps finding people acting like Nahobino is a lock.

Not that different from when popular requests such as Dante, Ryu Hayabusa or Crash were seen as inevitable by a lot of fans. In the end by doing that you're going to alienate the people who feel indifferent about these characters. I know it's lame to be like that but it's hard to avoid.

What I'm basically saying: I think it would be better on your part if you didn't treat this as an absolute inevitability, even if you still think that. You would actually get more people sympathize with you idea if you presented your whole Nahobino theory in a more reasonable way and without calling him a lock.

If you want we could keep the conversation via private messages so that way we won't bother this thread, but as you already know I'd be actually be pleased with Nahobino as CP11. So it's not like I'd hate the idea.

And yeah, I don't think being 100% definitively confident in a Smash pick is ever something that will end well.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Sorry, I should be clear: I do think Pokemon fans will buy the Pokemon game, but I also think most SMT fans won't go "Welp. Pokemon is out, so I guess I'll just entirely pass on the game I have been waiting literal years for!". Obviously money is finite and I'm sure some people will have to make tough decisions in the short-term, but I imagine most people who are both SMT and Pokemon fans will eventually buy both.

It’s not about SMT fans not buying SMT V, they absolutely will no matter how good and numerous Pokémon is, but we are shooting higher than that.

It is about the RPG fans who saw SMT V at E3 and were interested but their lives got busy and now they have all but forgotten about SMT V but of course they know and loved Pokémon as a kid so if they ever need a RPG to play they can always go to the nostalgia well. It is about the people who bought SMT IV or Nocturne or a SMT spin off other than Persona because their friends said it was cool and they really liked what little that they played of it but they had to put it down for some reason and now they have been playing nothing but more casual games because their life has changed and other RPGs don’t appeal to them the same way that SMT did and they don’t usually watch game media so they don’t even know about SMT V.

Nahobino in Smash would change the game for SMT in more ways than even I could ever imagine.

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #60

Spoiler

Kinda funny seeing Orochi in the overworld to be honest. I don't think it's a design that well suited for 3D movement haha

Next is Neko Shogun

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Daily Demon #60

Spoiler

Kinda funny seeing Orochi in the overworld to be honest. I don't think it's a design that well suited for 3D movement haha

Next is Neko Shogun

Kinda reminds of Steelix in SwSh except this looks more like an exception being unfitting in the overworld rather than the norm lol.

 

[SNEKeater]

Kinda reminds of Steelix in SwSh except this looks more like an exception being unfitting in the overworld rather than the norm lol.

Yeah, also wtf he's super high level here. I think in SMT IV he was around level 30.

Edit: cool fan art I found about the red lady:

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[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #61

Spoiler

Daily Demon #62

Spoiler

Next is Hanuman.

Remember that supposedly this week we're getting more SMT5 news according to Atlus themselves.

 

[amageish]

Remember that supposedly this week we're getting more SMT5 news according to Atlus themselves.

Clearly, this means that SMTV and Pokemon will have crossover content with each other announced in tomorrow's Pokemon Presents. That is the only possible outcome of ATLUS teasing news on the same week we will also get Pokemon news! /s

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it. I do hope they don't show too much in the way of story content though. Things feel like they've been getting more and more spoiler-y...

Edit: Some cute SMT Kirbies

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[SNEKeater]

Edit: Some cute SMT Kirbies

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This is clearly a tease of what we're going to get with CP11.

By the way, Atlus posted Doi's words on Hayataro.

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Apparently he was planned to be the first demon Nahobino meets in the game, and it was also possible to ride him to move quicker around the overworld.

Honestly... a shame that mechanic seems to have been cut because it sounds dope. Being able to ride different demons in SMT sounds cool, like Dragon Quest XI.

 

[Idon]

Ayo everybody.
In 24 hours we'll be getting our 2nd SMTV news report!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

That is the only possible outcome of ATLUS teasing news on the same week we will also get Pokemon news! /s

The same day....

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #63

Spoiler

Next is Naga.

Also, a bit more of gameplay in the spoiler tag from Atlus' twitter account. Around 30 seconds of gameplay that confirms 2 returning demons.

Spoiler

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I'm talking about Mot and Dionysus.

 

[SNEKeater]

Volume 2 of SMTV news. Turn on the subtitles for english subs.

They talk about some of the new characters introduced in the previous trailer and then explain the Essence, Glory and Miracle mechanics, which all reminds me of Strange Journey. Miracles are basically the Sub-Apps from SJ or the IV duology, looks like, which is cool.

 

[amageish]

Volume 2 of SMTV news. Turn on the subtitles for english subs.

They talk about some of the new characters introduced in the previous trailer and then explain the Essence, Glory and Miracle mechanics, which all reminds me of Strange Journey. Miracles are basically the Sub-Apps from SJ or the IV duology, looks like, which is cool.

Nice to finally have the identities of more of the demons on the boxart. Also SMTV has both a new Lilith and a new Sophia, huh? We're... really going back to the classics, I guess!

The mechanics all look pretty solid still, not that I'm too worried on that front anyway.

 

[SNEKeater]

Nice to finally have the identities of more of the demons on the boxart. Also SMTV has both a new Lilith and a new Sophia, huh? We're... really going back to the classics, I guess!

The mechanics all look pretty solid still, not that I'm too worried on that front anyway.

Yeah we're still missing the green dude which I assume it's egyptian inspired. I guess we will see more of him in the next big trailer.

Also, Game Informer released new screenshots of the game, all in english. They also have the official arts for the new characters:

Shin Megami Tensei V Preview - New Exclusive Shin Megami Tensei V Screenshots Show Off Demon Negotiation And Fusion - Game Informer

We also get info straight from Atlus about these features and the new characters.

www.gameinformer.com

New demons confirmed with all the recent footage:

Bugs, Poltergeist, Makami, Flaeris, Aeros. I don't think I'm missing anyone

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #65

Spoiler

Byakko looking good. His design feels better in 3D than 2D.
Next is Orthrus, we're in doggo time I guess

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #66

Spoiler

Daily Demon #67

Spoiler

Vishnu is using his Devil Summoner palette, cool.
Next is Gabriel.

Will Mara be #69? We will find out tomorrow.

 

[amageish]

Spoiler

Looks like Berith is up next.

Also, in something very weird, NintendoLife has suddenly done a full article about this one specific demon trailer for... some reason...

Spoiler

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Big Gabriel fans at NintendoLife, I guess?

 

[SNEKeater]

Spoiler

Looks like Berith is up next.

Also, in something very weird, NintendoLife has suddenly done a full article about this one specific demon trailer for... some reason...

Spoiler

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Big Gabriel fans at NintendoLife, I guess?

Gabriel looking really nice here. I like how she looks in this game.

Shame that #69 isn't Mara though.

 

[SNEKeater]

Daily Demon #69

Spoiler

Daily Demon #70

Spoiler

Next is Anubis

Also, Atlus West has posted and translated what Doi said about Manananggal when he designed her.

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