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Why the hate on smash4?

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InfinityAlex

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You know, maybe it's because I was only a small child when Melee released and that I have been following Smash 4 ever since its announcement, but I just feel very little emotional attachment to Melee. Also, my other statement was definitely not the point I meant to push; In hindsight, what I mean is that the Ganondorf set was pretty much decided shortly after it began. The DaBuz/Abadango set was anyone's game at any given time for a lot of that set. As well as this, Abadango was using a B/C tier character (Pac-Man) but was playing him very effectively. I don't really find anything exciting about seeing Falcon dittos or Ganondorf dittos because it's just so common.
 

Spak

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The DaBuz/Abadango set was anyone's game at any given time for a lot of that set. As well as this, Abadango was using a B/C tier character (Pac-Man) but was playing him very effectively. I don't really find anything exciting about seeing Falcon dittos or Ganondorf dittos because it's just so common.
Well, the SilentWolf v. Axe set was a S-Tier vs an A-Tier, Unknown v. DJ Nintendo was a S-Tier vs an A-Tier and a F-Tier, but there is a LOT more seperation between characters from a game that has developed its meta for 14 years so a Pikachu and Samus have a hard time against Fox and Bowser is nearly impossible to win with against a Fox. Falcon dittos are amazing (in my opinion) because they both combo each-other really well and any opening could lead to a lot of damage (plus, the ending to the match was amazing). Falcon and Ganon dittos are also pretty rare (Ganon dittos much more so). Also, in the Ganon ditto, he called the U-Tilt before the match started, and that's literally the hardest move to hit in the entire game.

In addition, fun fact about this set. Eikelmann didn't want to misrepresent Kage and was ashamed of how badly he was losing, so the last set he realized he would lose and took away the Kage tag (at 8:18). You can see an example of how much the Melee community cares for one another (in general) because BizzaroFlame saw this and checked to see if Eikelmann was OK.

EDIT: Second hardest move to hit. Forgot about fully charged flare blade.
 
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Squire

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The DaBuz/Abadango set was anyone's game at any given time for a lot of that set. As well as this, Abadango was using a B/C tier character (Pac-Man) but was playing him very effectively. I don't really find anything exciting about seeing Falcon dittos or Ganondorf dittos because it's just so common.
Well, to get it out of the way, Ganondorf dittos are not common. At all. They're very rare. Ganondorf is not a top tier character. Falcon dittos are a little more common, but still pretty rare.

But my main point is, DaBuz/Abadango may have been close, and it's cool that one of them was using a B/C tier character. But tell me how that's any different from the Shroomed vs. Dart match where Dart was using Marth, a very high tier, and Shroomed was using Doc, a mid tier, and it came down to the last hit.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think you can make an argument that Sm4sh has closer sets every time compared to Melee.

You know, maybe it's because I was only a small child when Melee released and that I have been following Smash 4 ever since its announcement, but I just feel very little emotional attachment to Melee.
Maybe it's an age thing? I know a lot of young people play Melee and a lot of older people play Sm4sh, but speaking in generalities I think Melee has an older fan base. Maybe sm4sh doesn't appeal to melee players because we're so used to a different style of play, and sm4sh players can't understand the appeal of melee because they didn't play it early on? Just a thought.
 
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InfinityAlex

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Maybe it's an age thing? I know a lot of young people play Melee and a lot of older people play Sm4sh, but speaking in generalities I think Melee has an older fan base. Maybe sm4sh doesn't appeal to melee players because we're so used to a different style of play, and sm4sh players can't understand the appeal of melee because they didn't play it early on? Just a thought.
It's almost definitely this; I was extremely hyped when I first got Brawl, around 10 or 11 years old. Now that I have Smash 4, I look back on Brawl and see a lot of good ideas bogged down by a lot of terrible design choices. I doubt I'll be like this every time a new Smash game comes out, but I definitely think it's an age thing and actually being around for it. Thing is, both Melee and Smash 4 will be replaced in time for whatever reason (though I do concede it could be a very long time for Melee due to its massive following) and we could end up with something completely different in their places. Just ruminating, though. XD
 

Roukiske

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It's almost definitely this; I was extremely hyped when I first got Brawl, around 10 or 11 years old. Now that I have Smash 4, I look back on Brawl and see a lot of good ideas bogged down by a lot of terrible design choices. I doubt I'll be like this every time a new Smash game comes out, but I definitely think it's an age thing and actually being around for it. Thing is, both Melee and Smash 4 will be replaced in time for whatever reason (though I do concede it could be a very long time for Melee due to its massive following) and we could end up with something completely different in their places. Just ruminating, though. XD
That may be true about the age thing. Though it's just nostalgia glasses really (awwww yeah 64). However, by preference, if I saw both games side by side at high level play, one just suits the kind of games I wanna play more than the other. If nothing replaces either of the games, and (I've seen indie game devs ATTEMPT these kinds of games), then they'll always be around. "There's nothing like Melee" and at the moment there's nothing like Sm4sh.
 

InfinityAlex

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Probably hence why Project M has been phased out a bit at Apex and the like this year. No point having 2 Melees when Smash 4 is in of itself quite a different experience altogether.
 

Squire

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Probably hence why Project M has been phased out a bit at Apex and the like this year. No point having 2 Melees when Smash 4 is in of itself quite a different experience altogether.
P:M was phased out by fear of legal action from Nintendo, not from lack of variety.
 

Makai Wars

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Probably hence why Project M has been phased out a bit at Apex and the like this year. No point having 2 Melees when Smash 4 is in of itself quite a different experience altogether.
This and also Nintendo was sponsoring Apex and they likely wouldn't appreciate a mod of Brawl.

Anyway Smash 4 v Melee is silly since they're totally different things; Melee's metagame is kind of dead set save for wildcards who show up with rare characters (i.e Amsa) while Smash 4 is still up and coming and ever changing, what with DLC and patches and all that.
People like to say Smash 4 is campy and can't be played competitively ect ect but mostly of these things are generalizations made by people who've probably only seen fights like the Dabuz v Abandago or FG scrubs. People who trash talk Smash 4 fail to see the myriad of streams with up and coming players all bringing something new.

I think a lot of negativity from the Melee scene comes from them being afraid Smash 4 will kill Melee and all their years of dedication will be put to waste because everyone is drawn to the shiny new game, so some try to tear it down to keep Melee in it's place. This has caused a lot of riffraff between the two communities since Smash 4 players strike back against Melee players only out of defense for their own game, granted some are just tired of Melee, but it's negativity all the same.

Honestly, since #OneUnit was a bust, it'd probably be just better off if the two games are just separate all the time save for big tourneys like EVO. Sharing a stream is a plain bad idea as Apex Smash 4 grand finals proved. Both games are great in their own merits, but when you mix the communities a lot of infighting happens.
 

Racuncai

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Melee's metagame is kind of dead set save for wildcards who show up with rare characters (i.e Amsa)
we discover new things all the time, like AIA's (aerial interrup attack), and ZPS(Z PowerShield) , this things are like 2 or 3 months old.

i'm a falcon player and i love to optimize his meta studying the frame data and hitboxes, knowing autocancel frames implement some old and new stuff to have more fun, you only neeed to see Pew Pew match, he is using whatever he can to be better at the game and that's awesome, that's not an dead meta my friend.

@Bobojack , this is what i call an unreasonable opinion, because they doesn't have any arguments at all.
 
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Mr.C

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When you're gifted with greatness, it's hard to validate the existence of games that are sub par successors. Melee is a master piece, plain and simple. The game will go down in history for being one of the greatest, deepest and most skill intensive fighting games ever made. Brawl and Smash 4 are dust in the wind as soon as a new game in the series comes out.
 
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KyroChao

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^ Except that Smash 4 is likely the last smash game. Granted Sakurai is full of **** sometimes but as of know we cant really say otherwise

Also, not too sure about the age thing. Im 14 and play sm4sh competitively, and had melee when i was little but put it down when brawl came out. Only a few months ago, i picked up melee again and i'm freaking addicted, its so much better in every way. I'll still play sm4sh for a long time but even though i'm just fighting CPU's in melee, j never get angry at melee like i can in sm4sh.
 
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Spak

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^ Except that Smash 4 is likely the last smash game. Granted Sakurai is full of **** sometimes but as of know we cant really say otherwise
Yeah, Brawl was also supposed to be the last Smash game. Sakurai didn't even know Brawl was being made until he saw the trailer at E3 and was asked after the trailer if he would help develop it.

Anyways, I found proof that Sakurai wanted to make Smash games in the future (this article was made in 2010) intentionally less competitive and much more accessible:

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."
http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

EDIT: I can't find the article about Sakurai not knowing about Brawl until he saw it announced, so it may have been a rumor of the time or Google just doesn't like bringing up articles from 9 or 10 years ago.
 
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kingPiano

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Yeah, Brawl was also supposed to be the last Smash game. Sakurai didn't even know Brawl was being made until he saw the trailer at E3 and was asked after the trailer if he would help develop it.


http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

EDIT: I can't find the article about Sakurai not knowing about Brawl until he saw it announced, so it may have been a rumor of the time or Google just doesn't like bringing up articles from 9 or 10 years ago.

You can't find proof because.......Metaknight created Brawl. *dramatic prairie dog*

In the beginning MetaKnight created the Brawl and the Smash.
And the Tier List was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the Melee veterans. And the Spirit of the Meta moved upon the face of the tournaments.
And MetaKnight said, Let there be tripping: and there was tripping.
And MetaKnight saw the tripping, and it was good; and MetaKnight nerfed all the Melee characters.....hard.





.
 
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RIP|Merrick

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I also think some people are alleviated from Melee as a competitive game because for some, not everyone can sadly go to tournaments often or even practice with other competent players for reasons. (College, too far a distance for venues that have friendlies and tourneys, etc), which could also be why people like me flock to Smash 4. Yeah, the match quality can vary between players, but for the vast majority of my various matches against others, I have had near lagless experiences that made me happy. They did online right here, at least for 1v1 (Any more players and my enjoyment starts to drop significantly. One person can ruin it for everyone, lmao). The quality can be about as close to playing local matches, it has been that fantastic for me. Nintendo done good son.

Getting to play in several online tournaments lately, too. Having to drive out an hour and a half to a venue then back is not something I can really afford to do at times...which makes me really appreciate Smash 4s pretty great online services, and for those who host those online tournaments.
 

Pwii

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Waveshine ->turnaround u-tilt with fox is new, like 2014/5 new. Fox being considered the best is pretty new. It took till like 2012 for fox to beat puff, and around then it was like only Mango who would lasercamp them effectively. Gravy and his techchase optimization is new.

After 15 years of Melee, people are still finding new ways to play, new matchups, and new combos. After 15 years of Sm4sh, people will be playing something else because of how shallow the game is.
 

Squire

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After 15 years of Sm4sh, people will be playing something else
Sm4sh is fun casually with some drunk friends or something, but you're right. It's like brawl. Once sm4sh came out, brawl was gone. Does anyone still talk about that game? Sometimes I completely forget it exists. It's not even sm4sh that killed it. That game was limping along, slowly bleeding out when sm4sh showed up to put the mercy bullet in its head.

Melee survived through a sequel, brawl did not. The difference is that melee had a level of depth to it that brawl didn't. It's easy to kill a game like brawl, because it takes no time at all for people to move on from it. Melee is still thriving, after two sequels. Will sm4sh survive a potential two sequels? I doubt it. I think in a few years we'll be having this debate again about melee vs. smash 5, and the sm4sh crowd will be as quiet then as the brawl crowd is now.
 
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MuraRengan

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Melee's metagame is kind of dead set save for wildcards who.
This is the kind of thing that could only be said by someone who has not played Melee. Melee's metagame has been advancing steadily for years. Advanced techs =/= metagame, and the thing that keeps people playing is that the sheer amount of options and subtleties that are programmed into the game makes every match a unique and refreshing experience. Furthermore, the massive amount of options has made for seemingly endless avenues for improvement. To put this as simply as I can, there is JUST SO MUCH TO DO in Melee that I can't "move on" to a game that has less stuff you can do. I have played every smash game ever made competitively, in fact, I am currently playing around in Smash 4 since there's some local competition, but after having played Melee, every other game seems SO SIMPLE that the victories don't feel as rewarding. Every victory I get in Melee is a combination of continuous high-technical execution while simultaneously analyzing the opponent, the situations, and the opportunities, and the other games have that in such less of a degree that I could never be as happy with a victory in Smash 4 as I am in Melee. Smash 4 just feels like a highly limited version of what Smash really could be, as Melee and P:M have shown it.

Side note: Brawl Minus is hella fun.
 

Squire

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them being afraid Smash 4 will kill Melee
Is this real? I've seen this brought up several times in this thread, and I don't understand it. Melee has more competitors and followers right now than it ever had before, even after the release of sm4sh. I also don't know any Melee players personally who are dying to switch to sm4sh. Melee has always been a grassroots sort of deal, so I don't think they're really afraid of "losing their seat at the top" which they don't have.

I know people get jealous, and I know the melee community is only human so I'm sure a few people out there have that fear, but I think this is unfairly thrown around as a knee-jerk defensive reaction to "we don't like your game."

I have no hate for the sm4sh community. I have my own opinions on the game, which I've brought up before in this thread, but I don't care if sm4sh is getting streamed somewhere. I just don't want to split time with it during a melee tournament because I think it's boring to watch. But I'm certainly not afraid of it.
 

MuraRengan

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In terms of Melee "dieing" I think that a more genuine concern is the fact that perfectly good new Melee players are being attracted to a worse gaming experience simply because it's new. I had to watch all the new players in my scene flock to Brawl when it first came out. A lot of them used the same lines "I like the pace of Brawl better. Tech skill is too burdensome." Funny thing is our Brawl scene is completely dead, and many of the good players have switched to Melee.
 

kingPiano

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Is this real? I've seen this brought up several times in this thread, and I don't understand it. Melee has more competitors and followers right now than it ever had before, even after the release of sm4sh. I also don't know any Melee players personally who are dying to switch to sm4sh. Melee has always been a grassroots sort of deal, so I don't think they're really afraid of "losing their seat at the top" which they don't have.

I know people get jealous, and I know the melee community is only human so I'm sure a few people out there have that fear, but I think this is unfairly thrown around as a knee-jerk defensive reaction to "we don't like your game."

I have no hate for the sm4sh community. I have my own opinions on the game, which I've brought up before in this thread, but I don't care if sm4sh is getting streamed somewhere. I just don't want to split time with it during a melee tournament because I think it's boring to watch. But I'm certainly not afraid of it.
The whole "Meles fans are afraid of Sm4sh taking over" makes me chortle. It makes me chortle A LOT.

Melee was released in 2001; 14 years later it's going stronger then ever, we are still able to see new characters get unexpected results, and the meta is constantly still evolving. Sm4sh kids can start talking about the "takeover" in 14 years. Then maybe I will listen, until then it's a waste of time to even read such naive comments.


p.s. If Melee is older than you, then you probably shouldn't even be making comments in this thread. A certain level of maturity, experience, and intelligence has not yet been obtained.
 
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Pwii

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In terms of Melee "dieing" I think that a more genuine concern is the fact that perfectly good new Melee players are being attracted to a worse gaming experience simply because it's new. I had to watch all the new players in my scene flock to Brawl when it first came out. A lot of them used the same lines "I like the pace of Brawl better. Tech skill is too burdensome." Funny thing is our Brawl scene is completely dead, and many of the good players have switched to Melee.
The whole "Meles fans are afraid of Sm4sh taking over" makes me chortle. It makes me chortle A LOT.

Melee was released in 2001; 14 years later it's going stronger then ever, we are still able to see new characters get unexpected results, and the meta is constantly still evolving. Sm4sh kids can start talking about the "takeover" in 14 years. Then maybe I will listen, until then it's a waste of time to even read such naive comments.


p.s. If Melee is older than you, then you probably shouldn't even be making comments in this thread. A certain level of maturity, experience, and intelligence has not yet been obtained.
Melee is not going to die, but Sm4sh is hurting it. A lot of people in the smashfest group I play with have switched over to mostly Sm4sh instead of Melee/PM. It's not threatening Melee really, but it's frustrating to have people straight up not want to play with you. Of course, I know some people who get into Melee because of Sm4sh, which is really encouraging. (come to think of it, I started out Brawl until I saw a glimpse of high-level Melee.)
Side note: Brawl Minus is hella fun.
I would rather play Brawl Minus at a competitive level than Sm4sh or Brawl Kappa.
 
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Spak

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Yeah, I started some of the competitive tech for Melee because I didn't understand what teching was when it was discussed on Smash Bros Dojo! (I checked the Dojo every day after school for updates on Brawl), so I looked it up on Smash Bros Wiki and saw a bunch of cool things to do in Melee. Unfortunately, I never really understood the applications of it, streaming wasn't a thing, and the whole idea of sharing video was still pretty underdeveloped (YouTube had already been out for a couple years, but it was still a bit primitive). Because of that, I never really got into starting my competitive training until 2012 (all of my friends and I got pretty good at both Melee and PM) and went to my first tourney in 2014 (hence the reason I got an account on the boards).

This is starting to turn into a story of how I got into Smash, but that's already a thread I made a while ago.

EDIT: Although I have gone to locals since I posted that, so the last part should be updated sometime.

EDIT 2: Grammatical error has been fixed.
 
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Caryslan

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^ Except that Smash 4 is likely the last smash game. Granted Sakurai is full of **** sometimes but as of know we cant really say otherwise

Also, not too sure about the age thing. Im 14 and play sm4sh competitively, and had melee when i was little but put it down when brawl came out. Only a few months ago, i picked up melee again and i'm freaking addicted, its so much better in every way. I'll still play sm4sh for a long time but even though i'm just fighting CPU's in melee, j never get angry at melee like i can in sm4sh.
Smash 4 being the last Smash game is as unlikely as Mario Kart 8 being that last game in that series. Smash Bros is one of Nintendo's most dependable cash cow franchises, and they will keep it going regardless of if Sakurai comes back to work on Smash 5.

I think that's why work on Smash 4 was outsourced to Namco. So Nintendo could have a backup plan in case Sakurai did not want to come back.

Nintendo almost never ends a series just because its creator decides to stop working on new games. Mother is the only one that comes to mind, and that is an RPG series that likely had nowhere to go when it came to new stories.

Sakurai left the Kirby series over a decade ago, and Hal has kept making Kirby games during that time, with two recent ones coming out on the 3DS and Wii U.

The only real time Nintendo kills off series or puts them on hiatus is when they bomb in sales, like what happened to Metroid, F-Zero, and Star Fox.

As long as Smash Bros prints money and remains one of Nintendo's cash cows, we will keep getting new games. Unless I'm wrong, Smash on the 3DS has already sold 6 million copies, and the Wii U version is already doing better then Mario Kart 8.

Smash Bros will get a new game on the NX. Its one of the major draws Nintendo still has left.
 

Squire

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Most fans of Nintendo expect certain franchises to get an installment with every console release. Mario Kart, Legend of Zelda, Mario Party, some type of Super Mario Bros, and Super Smash Bros. It's been a Nintendo staple since 1999 and they haven't missed a chance to introduce a new smash onto every console since N64. I doubt they'll just drop it because Sakurai is tired.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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A lot if people have the wrong idea why Melee got higher numbers like it does now.

Project M
Evo

Those are the reasons why Melee got bigger and Brawl died off to 64 levels of attention. Probably a lot bigger than most other reasons.

It breathed new life into it.

Brawl isn't played because it got modded and replaced, plus with Smash 4 fixing key issues a lot of people had people didn't want to go back.

Plus infinitely better net code helps it's appeal a lot.
 
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kingPiano

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A lot if people have the wrong idea why Melee got higher numbers like it does now.

Project M
Evo

Those are the reasons why Melee got bigger and Brawl died off to 64 levels of attention. Probably a lot bigger than most other reasons.

It breathed new life into it.

Brawl isn't played because it got modded and replaced, plus with Smash 4 fixing key issues a lot of people had people didn't want to go back.

Plus infinitely better net code helps it's appeal a lot.
Brawl has tripping and MetaKnight, so I would hope that the Brawl community finally became intelligent enough to realize that is was becoming a joke and bringing great shame to the competitive FGC.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Brawl has tripping and MetaKnight, so I would hope that the Brawl community finally became intelligent enough to realize that is was becoming a joke and bringing great shame to the competitive FGC.
Metaknight issues had have not made it as good but nothing else here was a main factor like the two points I listed.
 

kingPiano

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Metaknight issues had have not made it as good but nothing else here was a main factor like the two points I listed.
It appears bringing up valid points would not make any difference but "modded and replaced" are not even close.

The mod is not endorsed or played at large tournaments, and the replacement is only so popular because of Nintendo's money they are throwing at it. Without any other factors Brawl would have naturally died because it.....sucks, and the largest factor behind why melee has exploded again would be the Documentary, then Evo and the funding behind that movement. But you can't get funding unless you have the massive interest in it to start with, so I guess the real reason is that people are so passionate about such a solid game that one person would donate $20,000 and another would make an ambitious documentary about it. You will never see that for Smash 4 or Brawl, and if you think you will you are sadly mistaken.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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It appears bringing up valid points would not make any difference but "modded and replaced" are not even close.

The mod is not endorsed or played at large tournaments, and the replacement is only so popular because of Nintendo's money they are throwing at it. Without any other factors Brawl would have naturally died because it.....sucks, and the largest factor behind why melee has exploded again would be the Documentary, then Evo and the funding behind that movement. But you can't get funding unless you have the massive interest in it to start with, so I guess the real reason is that people are so passionate such a solid game that one person would donate $20,000 and another would make an ambitious documentary about it. You will never see that for Smash 4 or Brawl, and if you think you will you are sadly mistaken.
Modded and replaced is exactly what happened.

People agree pretty much at this stage Brawl and Melee had this large divide, PM made Brawl more into Melee so that removed it. PM might be getting axed left and right for Smash 4, and legal reasons, these days but it still was a large contribution to the boost of Melee.

Which if you remember Brawl actually was bigger than Melee til the past 2-3 years.

Brawl died because Melee got a giant boost from Evo, PM and I guess I forgot the documentary which we can throw that in as well.

Smash 4 at this point would, even more so if Nintendo wants to get more involved it seems.

Game quality is not why someone was dropped or picked up, still subject in this situation outside of PM which has large legal issues as is.
 

Kurri ★

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Not sure if anyone wants the opinions of a "filthy PM/Sm4sh scrub" but if I had to guess, it's most likely because it's a different game; you can't play Sm4sh like Melee. Sm4sh is missing a lot of the options Melee has; you can't L-Cancel to reduce landing lag, you can't wavedash as a movement option, characters are floatier and "sluggish," defensive options are really dominant, and a lot of the veterans characters feel nerfed (i.e. Marth's sword being noticeably smaller). But I wouldn't go as far to say that Sm4sh (and PM; noticed a strong disdain for it by Melee players) is a bad game for it, it's a different game.

It appears bringing up valid points would not make any difference but "modded and replaced" are not even close.

The mod is not endorsed or played at large tournaments, and the replacement is only so popular because of Nintendo's money they are throwing at it. Without any other factors Brawl would have naturally died because it.....sucks, and the largest factor behind why melee has exploded again would be the Documentary, then Evo and the funding behind that movement. But you can't get funding unless you have the massive interest in it to start with, so I guess the real reason is that people are so passionate such a solid game that one person would donate $20,000 and another would make an ambitious documentary about it. You will never see that for Smash 4 or Brawl, and if you think you will you are sadly mistaken.
It's true Brawl would've died, but not because it sucks, but because Sm4sh came out. Sm4sh is the first smash game that you could actually translate skill from the previous game to it, in other words, it's Brawl 2. I don't understand the whole idea that if a game dies to it's sequel it was a failure. No one said Blazblue Calamity Trigger was a failure when everyone moved to Continuum Shift or Chrono Phantasma. I'm certain no one will say Street FIghter IV sucked when everyone moves to Street Fighter V.

Brawl died because of PM, Evo, the documentary, and Sm4sh.

Sm4sh is growing not because of that Nintendo $$$; which, iirc, they only helped out with Apex; but because there's a legitimate love and passion for it too.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Sm4sh is growing not because of that Nintendo $$$; which, iirc, they only helped out with Apex; but because there's a legitimate love and passion for it too.
Not too sure about that. When Super Smash Brothers 5 is released, about 95% or MORE than 95% of the smash 4 players will jump right on the new game hype train and forget allllll about smash 4, just like brawl.

To me, that's not love... but rather flirtation. Just because you're banging some chick does not mean you will marry her. Brawl / Smash 4 provide that cheap prostitute experience, but they're not marriage material like melee ;)

But.... We'll still be playing melee when smash 5 comes out. And when smash 6 comes out. Etc. Now THAT'S real love.

That's the difference. Melee players TRULY love the game, We will never stop playing melee. Smash 4 players are mostly playing it because it's new and shiny.
 
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Kurri ★

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Not too sure about that. When Super Smash Brothers 5 is released, about 95% or MORE than 95% of the smash 4 players will jump right on the new game hype train and forget allllll about smash 4, just like brawl.
Of course they will, but that's because they have a love for the series as a whole rather than one game. Not that it's bad to love one game, just understand it's a different kind of love. Tekken players will move on the latest installment, not because the last one was "that cheap prostitute experience" but because they're married to the series. I think a better (and less offensive) analogy would be, Melee players stop at a destination, digging through every little thing they can find, while Brawl/PM/Sm4sh/(Whatever subsequent game or modification) players stick with the journey experiencing every twist and turn and seeing how far they can go.

You'll never stop playing Melee, I'll never stop playing Smash.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Not too sure about that. When Super Smash Brothers 5 is released, about 95% or MORE than 95% of the smash 4 players will jump right on the new game hype train and forget allllll about smash 4, just like brawl.

To me, that's not love... but rather flirtation. Just because you're banging some chick does not mean you will marry her. Brawl / Smash 4 provide that cheap prostitute experience, but they're not marriage material like melee ;)

But.... We'll still be playing melee when smash 5 comes out. And when smash 6 comes out. Etc. Now THAT'S real love.

That's the difference. Melee players TRULY love the game, We will never stop playing melee. Smash 4 players are mostly playing it because it's new and shiny.
That is faulty thinking right here.

More people probably play MvC3 and Street Fighter 4 right now, that doesn't mean older games suck, just that people went to the newest installment, like every single other fighter out there.

People might still play Melee but so? People still play MvC2 and SFII, that doesn't mean they are bad games.

Melee is big right now for the reasons I listed above, not because it's league better or anything of the sort.
 

Jebus244

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It's true Brawl would've died, but not because it sucks, but because Sm4sh came out. Sm4sh is the first smash game that you could actually translate skill from the previous game to it, in other words, it's Brawl 2.
This is actually a really good point. The best point I've heard regarding the viability of this franchise as a competitive game. Kudos to you!

However, the same would apply if sakuria would have kept the franchise like melee. Hell, even 64 has L-cancelling. The mechanics shouldn't have changed, and it's a damn shame they did. Those mechanics haven't stopped players from trying to compete for years and years. They are tried and true. It's undeniable that they give you THE BEST control over your character out of any in the series bar none.

Of course they will, but that's because they have a love for the series as a whole rather than one game. Not that it's bad to love one game, just understand it's a different kind of love. Tekken players will move on the latest installment, not because the last one was "that cheap prostitute experience" but because they're married to the series. I think a better (and less offensive) analogy would be, Melee players stop at a destination, digging through every little thing they can find, while Brawl/PM/Sm4sh/(Whatever subsequent game or modification) players stick with the journey experiencing every twist and turn and seeing how far they can go.

You'll never stop playing Melee, I'll never stop playing Smash.
I think this is flawed. I believe the majority of players playing the games you've mentioned would agree that they feel noticeably similar to their predecessors, and even evolved from them. With the addition of characters and flashy gimmicks, the core of the competitive game still exists.

This is not the case with the smash series. Melee was an evolution from 64. The way the Street Fighter series works, the way Mortal Combat works, the way Tekken works... Brawl was a step back. Brawl, ironically, is the tripping forward-dash of sequels.

With the release of Sm4sh, Melee players have had an unfortunate revelation. Not only was Brawl a disappointing step back, but amidst the backtracking was a sidestep that has set the series on a different path!

That right there may cut to the core of it. Aside from the ridiculousness at APEX that started this thread, the subconscious knowledge melee players have is that they've lost their game.

And that is why there is hate on smash4.
 
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kingPiano

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That is faulty thinking right here.

More people probably play MvC3 and Street Fighter 4 right now, that doesn't mean older games suck, just that people went to the newest installment, like every single other fighter out there.

People might still play Melee but so? People still play MvC2 and SFII, that doesn't mean they are bad games.

Melee is big right now for the reasons I listed above, not because it's league better or anything of the sort.
Want to talk about faulty thinking? You two Sm4sh apologist are comparing apples to oranges, and completely misunderstanding what makes a game viable and relevant in the competitive FGC.

With series like Tekken and Street Fighter the developers and creators are always trying to think of the competitive community when making the next sequels and each game has gotten deeper and more viable in a tournament setting.

Brawl was the absolute opposite direction of that, it was intentionally made to be a non-competitive party casual game with the tripping, slowed down pace, the removal of all that was awesome in Melee, and hilarious new game mechanics.

Smash 4 is basically the same as he said himself "Brawl 2"....

It's very misguided to even make this comparison to other actual relevant fighting game series. Smash has been devolving and become more and more neutered with each installation since Melee.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Want to talk about faulty thinking? You two Sm4sh apologist are comparing apples to oranges, and completely misunderstanding what makes a game viable in the competitive FGC.

With series like Tekken and Street Fighter the developers and creators are always trying to think of the competitive community when making the next sequels and each game has gotten deeper and more viable in a tournament setting.

Brawl was the absolute opposite direction of that, it was intentionally made to be a non-competitive party casual game with the tripping, slowed down pace, the removal of all that was awesome in Melee, and hilarious new game mechanics.

Smash 4 is basically the same as he said himself "Brawl 2"....

It's very misguided to even make this comparison to other actual relevant fighting game series. Smash has been devolving and become more and more neutered with each installation since Melee.
I'm not even being an apologist.

I'm pointing out many viewpoint I find to be faulty or misleading.

It is entirely relevant and not apples and oranges, it's how it works and has worked plain and simple.

You can call it non competitive garbage all you want, it's still competitive and people will compete it in more than they ever have with Brawl.
 

Jebus244

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Want to talk about faulty thinking? You two Sm4sh apologist are comparing apples to oranges, and completely misunderstanding what makes a game viable and relevant in the competitive FGC.

With series like Tekken and Street Fighter the developers and creators are always trying to think of the competitive community when making the next sequels and each game has gotten deeper and more viable in a tournament setting.

Brawl was the absolute opposite direction of that, it was intentionally made to be a non-competitive party casual game with the tripping, slowed down pace, the removal of all that was awesome in Melee, and hilarious new game mechanics.

Smash 4 is basically the same as he said himself "Brawl 2"....

It's very misguided to even make this comparison to other actual relevant fighting game series. Smash has been devolving and become more and more neutered with each installation since Melee.
Come on dude, you don't need to attack them. You made one legitimate point in your comment, and it just reflected my previous comment.
 
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