Why the hate on smash4?

[[OCK]LLama]

It's toxic (and laughably pathetic) posts like this that make outsiders & newcomers hate the Melee community and actively seek to avoid it. Congratulations.

It's annoying tumblr esque **** like this that made the subreddit and VGBC go to ****

It's a joke post that many people wanted to enjoy, not only this, but did you only come here to bash on melee lmao? Are you justifying ignorance and generalization of an ENTIRE COMMUNITY over someone disliking a game heavily.

Man this is why I hate these types of discussions, it's all the annoying passive **** that people post and pretend to be "neutral" but in reality aren't.

 

[Kurri ★]

Want to talk about faulty thinking? You two Sm4sh apologist are comparing apples to oranges, and completely misunderstanding what makes a game viable and relevant in the competitive FGC.

With series like Tekken and Street Fighter the developers and creators are always trying to think of the competitive community when making the next sequels and each game has gotten deeper and more viable in a tournament setting.

Brawl was the absolute opposite direction of that, it was intentionally made to be a non-competitive party casual game with the tripping, slowed down pace, the removal of all that was awesome in Melee, and hilarious new game mechanics.

Smash 4 is basically the same as he said himself "Brawl 2"....

It's very misguided to even make this comparison to other actual relevant fighting game series. Smash has been devolving and become more and more neutered with each installation since Melee.

When did I say anything about competitive viability? And how does one even measure competitive viability anyways? Is Melee like 10 competitive viabilities? Would Virtua Fighter be 50 competitive viabilities?

Did you even read my post, or did you think "This guy has a Sm4sh character as his avatar, he's obviously an apologist scrub!" I literally said that Melee had more options than Sm4sh, all of which take time and practice to get right. That means Melee has a higher learning curve and thus skill ceiling than Sm4sh. But that doesn't mean Sm4sh is less viable for competitive play, otherwise people wouldn't be playing UMvC3 or USFIV considering they both have lower skill ceilings than their predecessors.

edit: Oh and let me just add this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS7hkwbKmBM
Last time I checked, SFIV doesn't have anything near as execution heavy as this. But you know, I'm just an apologist, I know nothing about what makes a game viable and competitive.

 

[kingPiano]

When did I say anything about competitive viability? And how does one even measure competitive viability anyways? Is Melee like 10 competitive viabilities? Would Virtua Fighter be 50 competitive viabilities?

Did you even read my post, or did you think "This guy has a Sm4sh character as his avatar, he's obviously an apologist scrub!" I literally said that Melee had more options than Sm4sh, all of which take time and practice to get right. That means Melee has a higher learning curve and thus skill ceiling than Sm4sh. But that doesn't mean Sm4sh is less viable for competitive play, otherwise people wouldn't be playing UMvC3 or USFIV considering they both have lower skill ceilings than their predecessors.

edit: Oh and let me just add this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS7hkwbKmBM
Last time I checked, SFIV doesn't have anything near as execution heavy as this. But you know, I'm just an apologist, I know nothing about what makes a game viable and competitive.

Oh boy I feel like I'm reading YouTube comments...that first paragraph, embarrassing.

"otherwise people wouldn't be playing UMvC3 or USFIV considering they both have lower skill ceilings than their predecessors."

Have you even played USFIV? UMvC3?....lower skill ceilings than their predecessors?

Again you compare Sm4sh and Brawl to those games and their differences in the SF and MvC series. That is the fundamental mistake you are making. Sm4sh and Brawl were not made with competitive fighting in mind, as I've already stated it's the complete opposite. Smash's trajectory in the FGC is the complete opposite of every other serious fighting game series that is hosted at tournaments.

Again let me re-iterate BRAWL WAS MADE INTENTIONALLY NON-COMPETITIVE BECAUSE NINTENDO HATED THAT MELEE WAS MADE COMPETITIVE, THEY WANTED IT TO BE AS FAR AWAY FROM A COMPETITIVE GAME AS POSSIBLE. And you said your self that Sm4sh was basically "Brawl 2", so then Sm4sh isn't a true competitive fighting game. What more is there to say?

I don't hate the game but there is a reason a 14 year old game - Melee - is still on top. No other series or franchise in the FGC has anything remotely similar. That is a very telling fact, all Nintendo had to do was keep the mechanics and add pretty graphics and more characters. They could have been super lazy and not innovated on anything that Melee did. But they couldn't even get that right, and they keep regressing and degrading the series. It's hilarious and sad at the same time.



.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't hate the game but there is a reason a 14 year old game - Melee - is still on top. No other series or franchise in the FGC has anything remotely similar. That is a very telling fact, all Nintendo had to do was keep the mechanics and add pretty graphics and more characters. They could have been super lazy and not innovated on anything that Melee did. But they couldn't even get that right, and they keep regressing and degrading the series. It's hilarious and sad at the same time.



.

Bolded, Street Fighter.

You remember the backlash from SF3 to SF4? I do.

 

[Squire]

I took a break from this thread because I wanted to read something positive that clearly wasn't argument bait for the smash community.

But I'm in a lousy mood. SO I'M BACK

And that is why there is hate on smash4.

I don't think it's that simple. I really don't. I think trying to say that there's a single reason for Melee players to dislike Sm4sh, and that you are the first person to bring it up in 520 comments is a wild assumption, if not a borderline insult to the individual intelligence of the community members.

Brawl was a huge disappointment for Melee fans who wanted to continue the trend they were on of making the smash series respected competitively, so we all had high hopes that Sakurai would listen to the fan base and make Sm4sh more competitive. And it let us down. It wasn't the game we wanted or expected. It was a party game with wacky randomness and a fairly low skill ceiling, in relation to Melee.

After 15 years of Melee, people are still finding new ways to play, new matchups, and new combos. After 15 years of Sm4sh, people will be playing something else because of how shallow the game is.

I just don't want to split time with it during a melee tournament because I think it's boring to watch.

I think that a more genuine concern is the fact that perfectly good new Melee players are being attracted to a worse gaming experience simply because it's new.

The main thing that annoys me the most as a so called "Melee-Elitist" is that Smash 4(/Brawl) would be nothing without Melee.
If the Melee scene never existed Smash4(/Brawl) would be as competitively played as Mario Party and Nintendo knows this by now so they used the sucsess of Melee to promote there new game.

It's pretty simple, really. When there's a passionate cult following for a videogame (Melee) that gets sequels (Brawl, 4) that dissappoint that following, the sequels get a lot of hate.

These are just a few comments I picked up off of page 1 and page 13. (some are mine, admittedly), but each person quoted has a different reason for disliking the game. There's some general overlap, sure. But it's not as simple as "Melee players hate on Sm4sh because of X"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I gotta agree with the above, if you don't like something, it's not always as simple as black and white.

 

[Kurri ★]

Oh boy I feel like I'm reading YouTube comments...that first paragraph, embarrassing.

"otherwise people wouldn't be playing UMvC3 or USFIV considering they both have lower skill ceilings than their predecessors."

Have you even played USFIV? UMvC3?....lower skill ceilings than their predecessors?

Again you compare Sm4sh and Brawl to those games and their differences in the SF and MvC series. That is the fundamental mistake you are making. Sm4sh and Brawl were not made with competitive fighting in mind, as I've already stated it's the complete opposite. Smash's trajectory in the FGC is the complete opposite of every other serious fighting game series that is hosted at tournaments.

Again let me re-iterate BRAWL WAS MADE INTENTIONALLY NON-COMPETITIVE BECAUSE NINTENDO HATED THAT MELEE WAS MADE COMPETITIVE, THEY WANTED IT TO BE AS FAR AWAY FROM A COMPETITIVE GAME AS POSSIBLE. And you said your self that Sm4sh was basically "Brawl 2", so then Sm4sh isn't a true competitive fighting game. What more is there to say?

I don't hate the game but there is a reason a 14 year old game - Melee - is still on top. No other series or franchise in the FGC has anything remotely similar. That is a very telling fact, all Nintendo had to do was keep the mechanics and add pretty graphics and more characters. They could have been super lazy and not innovated on anything that Melee did. But they couldn't even get that right, and they keep regressing and degrading the series. It's hilarious and sad at the same time.

Where did I compare Sm4sh to SF or MvC? And when did I talk about Brawl? I brought them up as counter-arguments to:

With series like Tekken and Street Fighter the developers and creators are always trying to think of the competitive community when making the next sequels and each game has gotten deeper and more viable in a tournament setting.

Because both games are considered to be more "casual" than their predecessors or at least have a lower barrier to entry.

And you don't have to re-iterate anything, you didn't even need to say it the first time. Everyone knows Brawl was intentionally designed to me non-competitive. What do you think tripping was meant for? But that didn't stop it from building a competitive scene, because it doesn't need to be designed to be competitive to have a scene. Melee is the best example of this. No one at Nintendo thought, "Hey let's make a competitive game that'll be played at major tournaments!" It just happened. Same thing will happen with Sm4sh.

I don't care if you love or hate the game, I'm not trying to persuade you. All I'm trying to say is, it's a different game for a different audience and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

I think that a more genuine concern is the fact that perfectly good new Melee players are being attracted to a worse gaming experience simply because it's new.

Maybe they're just attracted to something that you're not capable of seeing. Personally I prefer Sm4sh and PM because I love playing ZSS, and Melee doesn't have her (or a good Roy).

 

[Squire]

But that didn't stop it from building a competitive scene,

A scene which no longer exists and was dying even before Sm4sh came out because they tried and realized it wasn't competition material.

Melee is the best example of this.

Which is why it is the most beloved of the smash games by the competitive audience.

Same thing will happen with Sm4sh.

Sm4sh isn't as deep as Melee. It could happen, but there's really no guarantee.

it's a different game for a different audience and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

There's not. Until it interrupts a Melee tournament for four hours, which is what sparked the outrage that led to this thread being made, from what I understand.

I prefer Sm4sh and PM because I love playing ZSS, and Melee doesn't have her (or a good Roy).

I don't know this feeling. Nintendo loves Mario too much to leave him out of anything. I guess I miss Young Link if that counts for anything.

 

[Kurri ★]

A scene which no longer exists and was dying even before Sm4sh came out because they tried and realized it wasn't competition material.

I never said that it still existed, just that it grew and was quite large for a while. Also it died not because it wasn't competitive but because more preferable alternatives were released (PM) or revived (Melee).

Which is why it is the most beloved of the smash games by the competitive audience.

Maybe I'm not articulating myself properly, but I very much agree that the Melee scene is the largest and most beloved competitive Smash scene. I don't really play Melee much and I'll still tune in for major tournaments and stuff.

Sm4sh isn't as deep as Melee. It could happen, but there's really no guarantee.

We'll see after Evo. Personally I feel that's the make or break for Sm4sh. Assuming it does make it, and I'm certain it will, I do agree it won't last nearly as long as Melee did. Once the next game, or major mod comes out people will flock to it. Which I don't think is a bad thing, like I said before it's the difference between love for a series and love for a game.

There's not. Until it interrupts a Melee tournament for four hours, which is what sparked the outrage that led to this thread being made, from what I understand.

That is... somewhat fair. Apex was missing an entire day, but I feel it wouldn't have made too much of a difference. Instead of four hours it'd probably be two, or none. I don't believe Aftershock had too much of a problem, but that's not nearly as large. And I don't think Sandstorm, but well... that had it's own slew of problems. Personally I feel they can be at the same tournament, just gotta organize them better.

I don't know this feeling. Nintendo loves Mario too much to leave him out of anything. I guess I miss Young Link if that counts for anything.

It sucks. The only reason I main Marth in Melee is cause he teaches good fundamentals, the most obvious being spacing. But in the end, it's not the same.

I really hope I'm not sending the idea that I think Melee players are stupid for playing a 14 year old game. I'm just hoping to dissuade the idea that the other games are objectively inferior or that their players are scrublords. Had it not been for Melee no one would be trying to play the other Smash games competitively, not even 64. Who remembers Viewtiful Joe Red Hot Rumble, or Digimon Rumble Arena? No one, because despite taking the formula, they're nothing like Melee and no one takes the chance with them.

 

[Spak]

And I don't think Sandstorm, but well... that had it's own slew of problems. Personally I feel they can be at the same tournament, just gotta organize them better.


It sucks. The only reason I main Marth in Melee is cause he teaches good fundamentals, the most obvious being spacing. But in the end, it's not the same.

Yeah, I wouldn't consider Sandstorm as the most successful tournament with canceling the PM Grand Finals and the power going out for Westballs and Armada for game 3 in Melee grand finals just as Westballz was getting his momentum back.

Also, I was a Roy main (casually) for 5 years and still played him frequently for another 3 ( and I recently started to pick him back up), so I can feel your pain, but now my main is Falcon with a Roy secondary who I only really use for fun and for the Puff MU. It's tough having both my main and my secondary either play completely differently or flat-out not exist in newer games.

 

[Jebus244]

I took a break from this thread because I wanted to read something positive that clearly wasn't argument bait for the smash community.

But I'm in a lousy mood. SO I'M BACK



I don't think it's that simple. I really don't. I think trying to say that there's a single reason for Melee players to dislike Sm4sh, and that you are the first person to bring it up in 520 comments is a wild assumption, if not a borderline insult to the individual intelligence of the community members.













These are just a few comments I picked up off of page 1 and page 13. (some are mine, admittedly), but each person quoted has a different reason for disliking the game. There's some general overlap, sure. But it's not as simple as "Melee players hate on Sm4sh because of X"

I gotta agree with the above, if you don't like something, it's not always as simple as black and white.

Well I agree, It's not black and white, but that doesn't mean a trend such as this can't be quantified in a statement. A majority of the quotes @ Squire used as his example either expressed why they liked/loved melee, or why they preferred it to sm4sh, not why there is HATE on sm4sh. The relevant quotes, as he said, have an overlapping hatred for sm4sh that could be summed up with my point. Either resentment or despair.

"The issue is too complex man... Like, how could you out of all the tens of people in this thread assume to thinkly believe that you know the machinations of the universe.... er, smashverse, man? ...yeah.." Puh-leez. I do think my point is correct, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume I am the first to realize why there is HATE on sm4sh. I summed it up, like many posts throughout this thread have, I just tried to capture the underlying theme in as concise a manner as possible. I actually don't hate sm4sh though, but I can empathize with the players who do, those whom Nintendo have turned their back towards. The series has taken a new and unfortunate turn, and with the release of sm4sh, they appear to be continuing down that path.

Edit: I'm being a little ridiculous in this post, I know that. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Jebus hit it on the head... I try to explain this over and over, people rarely listen.

Brawl / Smash 4 removed techniques WITHOUT ADDING IN NEW ONES!

Street fighter, tekken, mortal kombat, they all get better and have more mechanics with each new release to keep the gameplay exciting.

Brawl / Smash 4 were intentionally designed to have less techniques, less options, and less of anything that might be conceived as an unfair advantage over the casuals....

This is the most annoying part... you could remove everything from the game except A moves and Jumping, and a good smash player will still beat a scrub using basic fundamentals like spacing or mindgames.

So by making the gameplay slower, more defensive, and removing options (and therefore depth) nobody wins. Sakurai thinks he's helping out the casuals, but he's really just making smash into a really dull and boring game. You could remove 99% of gameplay mechanics and the better player would still win. I don't know why they think destroying a perfect game design (smash 64 / melee) and turning it into whatever the **** brawl and smash 4 are supposed to be, would benefit anybody.

And I still stand by my other point. 90% or more of smash 4 players will be smash 5/6/7/8/9 players. They have zero game loyalty. And comparing smash to street fighter / tekken is stupid because as Jebus had mentioned, the game designers of these franchises make an actual effort to ADD to the gameplay and depth, not to violate, hack, slash, and burn almost every technique. Would not be surprised if teching and grabbing are removed in smash 5 at this pace...

 

[kingPiano]

I should have definitely taken my own advice, I am sorry I've even replied to the previous comments that was my bad.

Obviously it's already known that Sm4sh and Brawl were steps backward in the Smash series from a competitive standpoint. They add nothing new, in fact they just subtract. The problem is that it does actively tarnish the Smash name when other competitive fighting game fans see these new Smash games at tournaments and think "What the hell is this? lol"

But there is a large audience for it since it's so easy to play and has a shallow learning curve, I accept that and it won't change for a while. Tobuscus and PewDiePie have massive audiences mostly comprised of really young kids who will laugh at anything. They are making crap tons of money; good for them, nothing wrong with any of that. I guess I need to get over my personal disappointment in Nintendo and their treatment of this series. You can make a casual game that also has this whole other world of deepness and complexity, we all thought Melee was just the glorious start. Nope, it was the end

Bolded, Street Fighter.

You remember the backlash from SF3 to SF4? I do.

Yea but is SF3 still on top? No. Melee is.

That analogy doesn't make much sense....again.

Brawl saw major backlash from Melee and rightfully so since it was about 1000x worse than the jump from SF3 to SF4 since it was intentionally made to be non-competitive and broken. Is there a point you were trying to make there?

 

[Kurri ★]

Well I agree, It's not black and white, but that doesn't mean a trend such as this can't be quantified in a statement. A majority of the quotes @ Squire used as his example either expressed why they liked/loved melee, or why they preferred it to sm4sh, not why there is HATE on sm4sh. The relevant quotes, as he said, have an overlapping hatred for sm4sh that could be summed up with my point. Either resentment or despair.

Basically this.

And I still stand by my other point. 90% or more of smash 4 players will be smash 5/6/7/8/9 players. They have zero game loyalty.

I agree with the majority of what you said but this. What is game loyalty? What does it mean aside from "I still play a game from 2001 so I'm better than you!" Disliking how the game feels, hating the removal of options, fearing the casualization, those are all reasonable complaints. Not having game loyalty? That's just trying to feel above others. I mean, I play a series that began in 1999, do I have more brand loyalty than you?

Yea but is SF3 still on top? No. Melee is.

Last I checked SFIV was, and after that UMvC3. Unless you weren't talking about the FGC as a whole but rather on top of their respective series, whereas then, yeah, Melee is. Melee has many times more attendees and viewers at tournaments than Sm4sh does.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Basically this.


I agree with the majority of what you said but this. What is game loyalty? What does it mean aside from "I still play a game from 2001 so I'm better than you!" Disliking how the game feels, hating the removal of options, fearing the casualization, those are all reasonable complaints. Not having game loyalty? That's just trying to feel above others. I mean, I play a series that began in 1999, do I have more brand loyalty than you? When

Ah I'm not trying to say it makes me more devoted to the series... I'm just saying that melee players are actual smash players where as a lot of smash 4 players are bandwagoners who will play any new game.

I'm guilty of this as well, I love mortal kombat 3 ultimate, used to play competitively, but now I play Mortal Kombat X because it's new and shiny.... and also a better game lol.

In general though, I prefer the classics to the new. For example IN MY OPINION A link to the past is better than any other Zelda game in the franchise... when it comes to Zelda I've beaten all of them but I only play Link to the past competitively / speed run because it's just... the best.

Same with Donkey Kong... I love the 64 version but to me it just can't compare to the amazing level design and gameplay in the snes versions of donkey kong (Mainly donkey kong country 2... man that game is great)

That being said, you're right. If smash 4 had all of melee's gameplay, new characters, and new techniques, I would play it over melee.

 

[Kurri ★]

You say this:

Ah I'm not trying to say it makes me more devoted to the series...

But then you say that:

I'm just saying that melee players are actual smash players where as a lot of smash 4 players are bandwagoners who will play any new game.

It comes off as "I'm more dedicated than them!" But whatever, I don't even really care.

As much as I do like Sm4sh; and I really do love it; I'm just waiting for a PM-esque mod so I can wavedash my way to victory.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

You say this:

But then you say that:

It comes off as "I'm more dedicated than them!" But whatever, I don't even really care.

As much as I do like Sm4sh; and I really do love it; I'm just waiting for a PM-esque mod so I can wavedash my way to victory.

If smash4 gets a PM-esque mod, I would play it full time. I love what PM did with Brawl, plus they make all the characters viable instead of just 5

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i doubt a PM mod will be made.

 

[kingPiano]

"Yea but is SF3 still on top? No. Melee is."

Last I checked SFIV was, and after that UMvC3. Unless you weren't talking about the FGC as a whole but rather on top of their respective series, whereas then, yeah, Melee is. Melee has many times more attendees and viewers at tournaments than Sm4sh does.

Go back and read what he was responding too.

Melee is still on top in the Smash series even though it's 14 years old.

SF3 is not, so his analogy and point made no sense for each series.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

i doubt a PM mod will be made.

Not with today's technology, the WII U / 3ds are still hard to hack into. But that won't last forever.

When Brawl came out nobody could have predicted that PM would be a thing... so.. have hope?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Go back and read what he was responding too.

Melee is still on top in the Smash series even though it's 14 years old.

SF3 is not, so his analogy and point made no sense for each series.

It still makes sense, there has been backlash in other series and what is top usually changes.

Not with today's technology, the WII U / 3ds are still hard to hack into. But that won't last forever.

When Brawl came out nobody could have predicted that PM would be a thing... so.. have hope?

That doesn't give me hope at all.

Not if they pull the same, make it just like Melee, stuff PM pulled with reading bad ideas again.

 

[Squire]

"The issue is too complex man... Like, how could you out of all the tens of people in this thread assume to thinkly believe that you know the machinations of the universe.... er, smashverse, man? ...yeah.." Puh-leez.

This was unnecessary, goofy, and ...just plain weird. Is that supposed to be me? Thinkly?

Whatever. I'm over it.

I stand by what I said that everyone has different reasons to not like sm4sh. I was hoping for a melee-esque smash when it was first coming out. Upon seeing what it was, I wasn't like "OH NO. I HATE THIS GAME BECAUSE SMASH IS GOING DOWN A DIFFERENT PAAAATH." I simply thought "That's about what I expected." and I left it alone. I still had Melee.

The reason I actively dislike the game, as opposed to just ignoring it, is because it took up four hours of Apex. "Oh you can't bring up Apex, we're over it in this thread." I can if it's the reason I don't like the game. You can't pose the question: "Why do you dislike Sm4sh?" and add the stipulation "But don't bring up the main reason."

The game has a low skill ceiling and learning curve, yadda yadda yadda, we've been over it again and again. And that's fine if you're playing it at home and hanging out with some friends as intended. It's when Nintendo turns around and yells "WE'RE COMPETITIVE NOW!" completely flip-flopping on their previous stance, that I get upset. It felt like we took a break from adult swim so all the children could play in the pool for four hours at Apex. We stopped watching a technical fighting game that had worked for 14 years to get where it was (Apex 2015 broke records for attendance) so we could literally watch two monkeys throw bananas at each other all night. No one wanted that. Melee and Sm4sh are often compared as "Chess vs. Checkers". I think a more accurate term would be "Olympics vs. Children's Talent Show"

Either resentment or despair.

This wasn't the reason you gave earlier. Saying "people hate sm4sh because they resent it, or it causes them despair" is so vague that I could replace sm4sh with literally anything and it would work. Your original reason was:

With the release of Sm4sh, Melee players have had an unfortunate revelation. Not only was Brawl a disappointing step back, but amidst the backtracking was a sidestep that has set the series on a different path!

I don't hate sm4sh for being on a different path. I enjoy playing the game casually, and I have melee for competition. I hate sm4sh because it went down a different path then pretended it was on the same path.

You're not competitive, sm4sh. You'll likely get the lowest viewer rating at Evo, and everyone will say "What is this? Why is this here? This is an event for real fighting games.". I'm not afraid that sm4sh is going to overtake melee. I'm afraid sm4sh is going to look awful to the rest of the FGC and that bad reputation will rub off on Melee for being in the same franchise. Stop trying to be competitive. Play the game at home with your friends.

And if you're going to play it in tournament, do it on a separate stream. I never want to see two idiot monkeys punching each other again unless it's at the zoo. Especially at the cost of Melee.

I don't hate sm4sh for being different, I hate it for being bad. That may just be my opinion, but that's exactly what the thread is asking for.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This was unnecessary, goofy, and ...just plain weird. Is that supposed to be me? Thinkly?

Whatever. I'm over it.

I stand by what I said that everyone has different reasons to not like sm4sh. I was hoping for a melee-esque smash when it was first coming out. Upon seeing what it was, I wasn't like "OH NO. I HATE THIS GAME BECAUSE SMASH IS GOING DOWN A DIFFERENT PAAAATH." I simply thought "That's about what I expected." and I left it alone. I still had Melee.

The reason I actively dislike the game, as opposed to just ignoring it, is because it took up four hours of Apex. "Oh you can't bring up Apex, we're over it in this thread." I can if it's the reason I don't like the game. You can't pose the question: "Why do you dislike Sm4sh?" and add the stipulation "But don't bring up the main reason."

The game has a low skill ceiling and learning curve, yadda yadda yadda, we've been over it again and again. And that's fine if you're playing it at home and hanging out with some friends as intended. It's when Nintendo turns around and yells "WE'RE COMPETITIVE NOW!" completely flip-flopping on their previous stance, that I get upset. It felt like we took a break from adult swim so all the children could play in the pool for four hours at Apex. We stopped watching a technical fighting game that had worked for 14 years to get where it was (Apex 2015 broke records for attendance) so we could literally watch two monkeys throw bananas at each other all night. No one wanted that. Melee and Sm4sh are often compared as "Chess vs. Checkers". I think a more accurate term would be "Olympics vs. Children's Talent Show"



This wasn't the reason you gave earlier. Saying "people hate sm4sh because they resent it, or it causes them despair" is so vague that I could replace sm4sh with literally anything and it would work. Your original reason was:



I don't hate sm4sh for being on a different path. I enjoy playing the game casually, and I have melee for competition. I hate sm4sh because it went down a different path then pretended it was on the same path.

You're not competitive, sm4sh. You'll likely get the lowest viewer rating at Evo, and everyone will say "What is this? Why is this here? This is an event for real fighting games.". I'm not afraid that sm4sh is going to overtake melee. I'm afraid sm4sh is going to look awful to the rest of the FGC and that bad reputation will rub off on Melee for being in the same franchise. Stop trying to be competitive. Play the game at home with your friends.

And if you're going to play it in tournament, do it on a separate stream. I never want to see two idiot monkeys punching each other again unless it's at the zoo. Especially at the cost of Melee.

I don't hate sm4sh for being different, I hate it for being bad. That may just be my opinion, but that's exactly what the thread is asking for.

Why are you blaming smash 4 for taking up APEX when it lost a day, had to wait for other events as well and Melee took longer?

But w/e I've said my piece here.

I don't think smash games are really that far apart in depth, and see pros and cons to each game.

 

[Squire]

Why are you blaming smash 4 for taking up APEX when it lost a day, had to wait for other events as well and Melee took longer?

But w/e I've said my piece here.

I don't think smash games are really that far apart in depth, and see pros and cons to each game.

I know. I was there. And the general consensus among the people I overheard was "Are they canceling Sm4sh? They should just cancel Sm4sh. This is supposed to be a Melee tournament." And while I think that would've been rude since sm4sh players paid just as much money and went through the same crap to get there, I don't think it should've been on the same stream. It shouldn't have interrupted Melee, especially with the time constraints. Sm4sh is Cousin Oliver of the Brady Bunch when it comes to the tournament scene. What's he doing there? And why do the writers on the show (Nintendo, in this metaphor) want us to pay attention to him so much? He doesn't bring anything to the table.

I just don't understand the appeal of sm4sh as a competitive game when we already have Melee. "I want to get into the tournament scene but I don't want to spend a lot of time playing the game." is a common argument amongst sm4sh players. And I don't even want to get into why that makes no sense.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know. I was there. And the general consensus among the people I overheard was "Are they canceling Sm4sh? They should just cancel Sm4sh. This is supposed to be a Melee tournament." And while I think that would've been rude since sm4sh players paid just as much money and went through the same crap to get there, I don't think it should've been on the same stream. It shouldn't have interrupted Melee, especially with the time constraints. Sm4sh is Cousin Oliver of the Brady Bunch when it comes to the tournament scene. What's he doing there? And why do the writers on the show (Nintendo, in this metaphor) want us to pay attention to him so much? He doesn't bring anything to the table.

I just don't understand the appeal of sm4sh as a competitive game when we already have Melee. "I want to get into the tournament scene but I don't want to spend a lot of time playing the game." is a common argument amongst sm4sh players. And I don't even want to get into why that makes no sense.

Then those people are idiots. APEX is fir the official smash titles, not just Melee. Respect should be given, chanting after Zero's win, wishing the brawl and Smash 4 players got killed in the hotel, purposely entering fake Melee players to make it seem like it had more entrances as people bragged about in the hotel.

Crap like this makes the scene look bad as a whole. Multiple people on reddit, smashboards and other places complained saying they didn't like the toxic environment.

If people think that at all is ok, I have no respect for them as a person.

Hate and like what you want, just don't be an ass about it like Hax, Leffen etc. do.

Having a high skill floor is a deterrent sometimes, if you make it too high it can turn people off since it's keeping people from playing the real game.

 

[Kurri ★]

Why are you blaming smash 4 for taking up APEX when it lost a day, had to wait for other events as well and Melee took longer?

Didn't Melee take longer because it had more sets than Sm4sh?

"I want to get into the tournament scene but I don't want to spend a lot of time playing the game."

People who say this, aren't the people at the top though.

The Smash games are definitely different when it comes to depth, or at least a learning curve. Sm4sh and Melee may have the same amount of depth when it comes to things like basic fundamentals, but it comes to the actual execution, Melee is leaps and bounds farther along than Sm4sh. I think a better way to put it is that Sm4sh has a much lower skill FLOOR than Melee, meaning that any newbie can jump in and look like they know what they're doing, while Melee has a much higher one, where a newbie will obviously look like they have no sense.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Didn't Melee take longer because it had more sets than Sm4sh?


People who say this, aren't the people at the top though.

The Smash games are definitely different when it comes to depth, or at least a learning curve. Sm4sh and Melee may have the same amount of depth when it comes to things like basic fundamentals, but it comes to the actual execution, Melee is leaps and bounds farther along than Sm4sh. I think a better way to put it is that Sm4sh has a much lower skill FLOOR than Melee, meaning that any newbie can jump in and look like they know what they're doing, while Melee has a much higher one, where a newbie will obviously look like they have no sense.

Melee did not take longer. Matches don't go to time out in melee, and melee isn't about camping % dmg... so the games go by way faster. I think melee had more ENTRANTS than smash 4, which means yes it will take longer to wrap up. But if you compare match time vs match time... smash 4 is wayyy slower, and as a result, extremely boring to watch. Hence the Melee chants, hence the stream going ape**** bashing smash 4.

The point about skill floor is a good one... but melee still has a much higher skill ceiling as well.

 

[Squire]

Then those people are idiots. APEX is fir the official smash titles, not just Melee. Respect should be given, chanting after Zero's win, wishing the brawl and Smash 4 players got killed in the hotel, purposely entering fake Melee players to make it seem like it had more entrances as people bragged about in the hotel.

Crap like this makes the scene look bad as a whole. Multiple people on reddit, smashboards and other places complained saying they didn't like the toxic environment.

If people think that at all is ok, I have no respect for them as a person.

Hate and like what you want, just don't be an *** about it like Hax, Leffen etc. do.

I agree. I don't like competitive sm4sh, but I'm not trying to shut it down. I just think it should be separate from Melee. People are going to like what they like.

But this thread asked why people didn't like sm4sh, and I gave my opinion. That doesn't mean I hate everyone who plays sm4sh and want the game to be destroyed.

I think Nintendo needs to make up its mind on competitive vs. non-competitive (supporting tournaments while adding in mechanics to stop competitive play. what?) and I think sm4sh should be streamed away from Melee. That's pretty much it.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I think Nintendo needs to make up its mind on competitive vs. non-competitive (supporting tournaments while adding in mechanics to stop competitive play. what?) and I think sm4sh should be streamed away from Melee. That's pretty much it.

I agree 100% It makes NO sense to encourage tournaments, yet release a game that is CLEARLY designed to be counter intuitive to the standards melee set for competitive smash.

And yeah, two separate streams solves everything. I felt like I was being forced to watch smash 4 in the background at Apex so that I didn't miss a moment of melee top 8... and that annoyed me.

 

[Kurri ★]

Melee did not take longer. Matches don't go to time out in melee, and melee isn't about camping % dmg... so the games go by way faster. I think melee had more ENTRANTS than smash 4, which means yes it will take longer to wrap up. But if you compare match time vs match time... smash 4 is wayyy slower, and as a result, extremely boring to watch. Hence the Melee chants, hence the stream going ape**** bashing smash 4.

The point about skill floor is a good one... but melee still has a much higher skill ceiling as well.

You're fighting me, but, if you read properly, I agreed with you... Melee did take longer but it had a Top 48, Sm4sh had a Top 32 and the difference between the two I think was no more than 30 minutes. That right there is a problem, especially considering Sm4sh is played with 6 minutes 2 stocks. I also said Melee has a higher execution level, implying a higher skill ceiling.

The only problem with two separate streams is if someone plays both games, and makes it quite far in them. But that should be remedied by proper TOing.

 

[Jebus244]

EDIT: People started to agree and get along so I thought I should delete this. It reinforced my point and defended my reply to @ Squire , but there was some trolling in it. So... Gone!

EDIT 2: Without trolling but defending my clearer reasons "resentment" and "despair", it was my intention to infer those reasons in my original comment.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

r/ smashbros in itself is a reason to hate smash 4. Have any of you seen how bad it has become? You can get downvoted just for saying you LIKE melee.

 

[Kurri ★]

r/ smashbros in itself is a reason to hate smash 4. Have any of you seen how bad it has become? You can get downvoted just for saying you LIKE melee.

That's not a reason, considering you get downvoted for saying you LIKE Sm4sh, or PM, or 64 or just stating an opinion in general. That's more of a reason to hate how reddit works. Besides, /r/Smashbros has always been bad, reddit in general is bad.

 

[Squire]

This is the internet, where people yell at you for having any opinions at all because they can. I don't really see it as an argument for or against any smash game.

 

[Jebus244]

I don't really see it as an argument for or against any smash game.

 

[Squire]

Good use of good movie.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree. I don't like competitive sm4sh, but I'm not trying to shut it down. I just think it should be separate from Melee. People are going to like what they like.

But this thread asked why people didn't like sm4sh, and I gave my opinion. That doesn't mean I hate everyone who plays sm4sh and want the game to be destroyed.

I think Nintendo needs to make up its mind on competitive vs. non-competitive (supporting tournaments while adding in mechanics to stop competitive play. what?) and I think sm4sh should be streamed away from Melee. That's pretty much it.

They want to do both, at least it seems to be that way at this point.

Which works for League of Legends.

 

[Jebus244]

In my experience, sm4sh is perfect for drunk smash. I practice and play melee sober, sm4sh when I'm drinking. It's a ton-o-fun.

 

[Squire]

In my experience, sm4sh is perfect for drunk smash. I practice and play melee sober, sm4sh when I'm drinking. It's a ton-o-fun.

Essentially, yeah. That's about right.

It's fun and goofy and I can have a good time with it (especially under heavy intoxication) but it's not something I tend to take seriously. Totally on your side.

I have no hate for sm4sh as a game to play when I'm bored. It's on par with Mario Kart or Mario Party for me. And that's not an insult. There's a reason I spend a ton of money on those games. They're great!

I just don't see it as competitive or deep on the level of Melee. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game. Some players compete with Sm4sh, and that's fine if that's what they want to do. I'm not going to egg their houses for it. It's just not as good as Melee imo and I don't really get the tournament appeal.

 

[Pwii]

I think Apex was the main reason that Sm4sh players perceive Melee players as hating them. With all the ****posting in chat and the crowd's reaction.

The biggest issue was that the TOs acted on the assumption that Melee players care about Sm4sh, and they wouldn't want to miss either. Which is not true. Most of the people were there for Melee because it's more popular in the FGC. Not to mention most of those people either didn't care about Sm4sh, or stopped caring really quick after Dabuzz showed up.

So I would say the wave of people with their hate for Sm4sh comes from a reaction based on certain people acting like they like Sm4sh, and forcing it down their throats.