Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[monzer]

Ah, I see. I don't quite remember that fight, but the wiki says that "the power of love" defeated it. I'm assuming that that means the Pure Hearts. So yeah, this doesn't say much about Mario.

Oh yeah, he was weakened by the pure hearts and by some other things which are big spoilers.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Baton Kirby has only been shown to manipulate objects his own size. Which reminds me, Sonic shouldn't be affected either in the first place.

Parts of Bowser/Sonic are Kirby's own size.

They launch Marx about a foot sideways, and then he is propelled upwards by another force.

What force, exactly?

We do in the credits.

Not all of them.

Such as?

Any of the strong attacks they use.

Samus shoots another one while his mouth is full.

Kirby ducks.

Can Kirby actually inhale electricity in the first place?

Yes.

Show one that's the size of that found in the anime, then.

He didn't use that move in the games.

A yard is three feet, and Kirby is only eight inches tall. The scale seems to suggest that it's not a yard, but I might be wrong.

Kirby launches enemies several Kirbies, and each one is only a bit smaller than a foot. Maybe he launched them more than one yard.

There's a sizeable delay between the final hit and the teleport, and he doesn't get knocked back at all.

That's the same amount of delay as when regular Marx was knocked back.

Also, seeing as Marx just absorbed the energy as a planet, Marx Soul would be a lot heavier than regular Marx.

Because he could very well be lying, misled, etc.

Why would any of those things occur?

Why not?

The definition of block is, "put an obstacle in the way of (something proposed or attempted)." Seems very different.

Are you talking about the creators of the Pokemon series/movie/etc, or the creators of Mewtwo in-universe?

Former.

An object having the power to destroy a planet doesn't mean that every attack from that object has the power to destroy a planet.

Yet, the most powerful attacks from the object would.

The effect of the sword (cutting through something) doesn't.

The effect of a sword is striking and thrusting.

Because that's how Pokemon rules work, and all trainers agree to them.

Except this isn't a rule, it's a move.

Prove that it could penetrate Super Sonic, then.

Super Sonic isn't immune to having his moves disabled. That isn't his effect.

Magic Room negates held items. Sonic doesn't hold his Rings, and he'd be using the Emeralds here anyways.

Pokemon items aren't actually held either; Pokemon without hands can hold them. He'd use the Emeralds and the Rings.

Prove that it affects Super Sonic.

Super Sonic isn't immune to having his skills swapped. That isn't his effect.

He's using the same attacks, with the same amount of force. One does not simply choose when physics do and do not apply.

You can still control where things are launched.

And thus we can't assume that all of it is the same.

Then how do we know what's different and what isn't?

Do you have a clearer demonstration?

That was the clearest thing I could find.

Why is that? His mouth could be a portal, and that would leave plenty of room for internal organs.

If his mouth was a portal, the organs would go into it.

You don't seem to understand the concepts at work here. If a city was condensed into a small enough space, Sonic could likely take it out in one or maybe two hits. However, since it's so big, and Sonic can only be in one place at once, he has to traverse that entire city, which even at light speed, is slower than the alternative (although not by much). Since Kirby is such a small target, Sonic can hit all of him at once, so he can take him out very quickly. It's not the durability that would give him "trouble", it's the area the city takes up.

Yet, if you take a city small enough so Sonic could hit it all at once, keeping its durability, its durability still wouldn't stack up to Kirby's.

I'm also curious when Sonic has used the LSA to destroy like a city.

The main explosion is pink, and space is dark. Purple is almost like a darker pink, so pink + dark = purple.

The explosion is white.

A) His mouth would be full after inhaling a few, and then they would hit him.
B) Meanwhile, Kirby is vulnerable from being in his water form and having to switch Copy Abilities, so Bowser strikes.

A) He destroys them.
B) How would either of those things make them vulnerable?

No, I mean his entire weight. What if Giga Bowser sits on Kirby, or better yet, lies on him with his spiky shell?

Kirby would have to be on the ground for that to happen, but he's in the air.

Sleep Kirby is vulnerable to attacks. He's defenseless.

Except Bowser is the one going to sleep, not Kirby.

Baton Kirby wouldn't be able to get through due to Bowser's hands etc getting in the way, and if he did, it takes a while to explode a Baton victim.

A) Bowser can't react to Baton Kirby's beam.
B) If Bowser blocked it, Kirby would just blow up his hand, and then keep becoming Baton Kirby to blow up other parts.
C) The victim explodes when Kirby tosses the baton.

Ultra Sword hasn't been shown to chop through something as tough as Bowser.

It chops through mountains. Even so, Kirby can chop off his body parts individually.

Thus, burning logs are closer to flamethrowers.

Um, what?

If you get in a car crash, you'll be put into a state of shock. If Kirby crashes his Warp Star, he's put into a state of shock.

If you get in a car crash, the state of shock doesn't stop you from moving.

Then we can't assume that it's the same technique, because there's no evidence that it is.

It's visually the same. That's the evidence.

And faraway things that are not in space.

Prove it.

But he's far too slow.

Animal Statues Kirby can jump, and he doesn't need to be fast to go over it.

Right, he's smaller than one.

Yet, he has more health, he is more durable, and he is more powerful, meaning he isn't a Mario enemy. Aside from that, he isn't an enemy in his own series either.

Alternatively, Mario could just dodge the rather telegraphed attack. He's the master of stomping on things; he knows a stomping attack when he sees one.

A) This isn't a stomping attack.
B) Kirby would be near his head, so Mario wouldn't be able to dodge it.

Mario doesn't transform. He simply wears a different hat.

Then what is this?

I can't remember off of the top of my head, but real life drills can.

A) What will the drill even do for Mario in the first place?
B) Kirby throws Mario to the end of the arena; he won't be able to drill through that.

Any other attack, then.

A) Will do what, exactly?
B) Can Mario get anything out before Kirby kills him?

Prove its strength.

You need a strong grab to throw things around the sun.

Aside from this, how does Mario counter Ultra Sword Kirby chopping him into pieces?

Mario's abilities change, like the Mega Evolutions change abilities.

Which one of Mario's abilities change? Also, Reveal Glass changes abilities too.

Mega Evolutions are both more similar to power-ups and more common than the Reveal Glass, so we use them as the comparison.

They aren't more similar, and what does commonality have to do with anything?

A wheel spinning at 10,000 RPM (hypothetical number) has less force than a pair of scissors, then?

If it's not moving, yes.

I don't see how a spinning wheel and a chopping pair of scissors are more conditional than an active laser and a moving wall.

Laser beams are always active, so it isn't conditional. You added "moving" and "not moving" as conditions for the wheel.

This is about Sonic.

Actually, it's about Mario.

Also, Mario's invincibility items do destroy crushing walls when they're not part of the environment, such as Thwomps.

A) A Thwomp isn't a crushing wall.
B) Thwomps are enemies, explaining why the items destroy them. Mewtwo's laser beam isn't an enemy.

Then where did the pickles come from?

They were just generated to correspond to you transforming.

Seeing as how Lumas already turn into multiple planetoids etc, this doesn't seem to be a limitation for them.

How do you know they turn into the multiple planetoids?

But as we can see from the multiple nonsensical things in Pokemon, simply "making sense" in our world isn't solid proof.

Then what is solid proof?

Cutscenes are made to progress the story.

Not necessarily.

No, it's still spinning counterclockwise.

It's spinning clockwise.

Not all at once. If Kirby is spinning the Warp Star around, Sonic simply attacks from below, through the Warp Star.

Kirby's spinning it vertically.

A) They're both Chaos Control.
B) I suppose.
C) Does the stone become invincible too? If not, Sonic could simply remove it.

A) Does time freezing activate with the same lack of starting lag?
C) Yes. Also, the stone is frozen in time, so Sonic couldn't remove it.

A) Yes, while racing towards Kirby. The transformation takes only a fraction of a second.
B) The boost travels at extremely high speeds. The exact speeds are unknown (it's being debated currently whether or not it's FTL), but we know that Sonic can run at hypersonic speeds without the boost. Hypersonic is, at minimum, Mach 5.5, or around 4186.63 mph. And Sonic can reach these speeds instantly. Has Kirby been shown to react to that?

A) The transformation stops him from moving.
B) The Boost doesn't have enough range to reach Kirby.

Ah.

What is that supposed to mean?

He doesn't talk about anything in particular in the entries, so he talks about whatever. In Pikmin 2, he's supposed to be talking about the treasure.

How does one "express" a battery?

Talking about it.

And my brain can. My brain = the ship's A.I.

We were talking about the scanner though, not the ship's AI.

Such as?

He could be doing some of that on the ship.

And thus it's easier for the bullet to penetrate the plants. A smaller point of impact makes it easier to penetrate something; that's why a sharp knife cuts more easily than a dull one.

It still wouldn't take 25 Pikmin to reduce the force of one bullet.

If this society has spaceships, then I'd imagine they also have access to missiles. They're an advanced society.

Olimar flies in the spaceship to dodge the missiles.

He approved them. Doing nothing to stop a bad thing from happening is almost as bad as doing it yourself.

Unless you're scared to oppose.

Do you have a video of a playthrough where there are no monsters remaining when the knife is obtained?

And his mind is wrong.

Due to sense.

And why does this mean that depression isn't present because Olimar doesn't take damage?

Depression causes pain, and therefore, it would cause damage in Pikmin.

It does show that he might not be the best at decision making.

Wait, what irresponsibility are you talking about anyways?

And running the risk of destroying the Pikmin.

That's still the Pikmin's decision.

King of bugs syndrome (original disorder, do not steal) shows that he's bad at making accurate conclusions, which tells us that the dimensional cutter's description is even more likely to be faulty.

Bad at making accurate conclusions?

Except here, they're held together.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

How so?

You and I both said they weren't energy.

When is this limitation shown?

Again, logic. Statement with proof > statement without proof.

That your "it doesn't work diagonally" argument both makes no sense and has no footing.

So how doesn't the black hole suck up Mario when he isn't in front of/behind it?

The OHKO isn't the pulling force. The pulling force is what's bringing the victim to that OHKO. Mario can't escape from his, and they pull him in faster than Schwarz does Kirby, so they have a higher pulling force.

True.

Relevant to Kirby's durability/resistance to forces/etc.

I was only comparing it to Mario black holes.

Yes, a lot of them.

But not inescapably by Rosalina's opponents.

No, they propel themselves away from the Observatory.

But they don't control the direction after propulsion.

Becuase...?

See above.

Taking something away is an interaction, as is destroying something. Both would not work if Sonic couldn't interact with objects while time is frozen, but he can.

Just because he can destroy things, that doesn't mean he can move them.

Knocking something back, tearing it apart, etc also require interaction and movement.

When does Sonic knocks things back?

It takes less than a second, and again, with a higher speed, this time would be greatly reduced.

It takes about a second. Why would Sonic be moving at a higher speed?

He can roll and boost in games like Sonic Colors for the DS. If Sonic can't roll and boost at the same time, it's usually because he's missing one of the techniques in that particular game.

Is he using the Spin Dash when he boosts?

Why can't a body be feral?

It involves being in a wild state. As in, state of mind.

It enables him to, and wolf instincts seem to be the cause.

Yet, he still chooses to, which is a mental action. Instincts are responses, but Sonic wasn't responding to anything.

The purpose of a wolf's howl isn't to scare away foes. It's more like a war cry.

A war cry is a choice, and choices are done mentally.

But not underwater.

When Sonic freezes time, he isn't underwater.

Prove it.

If he did, he wouldn't freeze other characters in time when he used it.

Jet Kirby has lag, too; he needs to charge up.

He'd be out of the Power Bomb's range when he was charging.

Unless the attack is strong enough to break through the guard.

It would be weakened anyways.

A) It melts through the guard and gets to Kirby.
B) Prove it.
C) You mean the regular one? That one is much weaker.

A) The Power Bomb directionally attacks once. If is attacking the guard, it wouldn't attack Kirby.
B) The light that does not get reflected gets either absorbed (mostly) or transmitted (usually only for very thin film mirrors). The portion that gets absorbed is transformed into heat, which is transferred into the mirror material.
C) The same applies for Samus' attack, after weakened by the first guard.

The speed speaks for itself.

I didn't see him go fast.

How durable is it?

Damage from all physical attacks is reduced to 1. The armor works on attacks from universal weapons.

How fast is it?

How fast?

Bikes can move at up to 22 MPH.

You might have to ask @Dryn about the speed of Palutena's flying.

How much force can it "seal"?

Attacks from continental dragons.

Sol can't heal after the user has already been killed, can it?

You're assuming that Mega Mario would kill Ike.

What does Patience do?

Greatly boosts the avoiding capabilities of the user.

Can it protect the Trainer?

If the Pokemon walked near him, it would.

The journal is unreliable, because it comes from Olimar, who is unreliable.

How do you know Olimar is unreliable?

Magolor is mortal, correct? Mortal beings often cannot handle or control infinite power.

Prove it.

What is the explanation for this?

Force ≠ resistance to effects.

Is Kirby hit by the same exact attack that destroys a planet?

We don't see.

First round. Nightmare explodes a bit, and then floats off. No launching here.
Second round. Nightmare is launched a small distance, teleports to the center of the screen, and explodes. No Marx-level launching here.
Third round. Wait, there isn't one.

I was talking about the part when Dedede spat Kirby to another planet. Such feat makes Kirby's feats a non-outlier.

Sonic doesn't automatically die when he loses his Rings.

He's not losing the Rings, he's losing the effects of them.

Even so, they're not "held" by him; they're absorbed into his body.

Same applies to items that Magic Room has negated.

It's only considered a "weak spot" because the plating is thinner in that area. Considering it can take multiple super missiles, whereas cordite can only take one super missile and is known for withstanding multiple military-grade missiles, that's pretty impressive. I wasn't saying Ridley has planetary durability, though. Dark Samus, on the other hand . . .

Yeah, I've heard about Dark Samus.

I'm not seeing anything here, except Enemy's death resulting in the destruction of a large portion of the Moon, which I wouldn't even say is our moon.

See above.

I linked this, but it didn't show up, so I'll post it again.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

And how powerful are they?

Why not? It only works on adjacent enemies. What weapon does Robin use to counter attack?

According to the Fire Emblem Wiki, "Luck (運) is a stat whose tooltip often describes it as a measurement of the divine favor a character has, or some variant thereof."

The Chaos Emeralds don't require a deity to shine down on Sonic in order for him to use them.

He hasn't, because of the game mechanic of non-destructible environments.

By Sonic traveling at light speed?

Not rigid enough to stop a bullet, if I'm not mistaken.

It implies an advanced society.

Then why does the entry I linked to mention "feral teeth"?

And how durable is that?

You didn't answer my question. How does Falchion "seal" attacks, and what is the most powerful attack that it can negate?

How fast is he?

It can destroy pipes and large brick blocks as well.

Not in the sonicverse.

Actually, the Light Speed Dash does ignore gravity.

We don't know where they come from, so I'd say no.

I dunno.

Powerful enough to one shot Super Sonic that’s for sure!

No weapons are required for Counter to activate.

You didn’t answer that question. The tooltip has never stated that in FE7-10 and the only thing that implies that is the Luck booster (Goddess Icon/Ashera Icon) item.

Neither does the Luck stat.

Excuses from a Sonic fan.

My eyes could track him and he wasn’t even a blur.

Have you forgotten that we are dealing with microscopic bullets here?

Some advanced societies are incredibly peaceful.

I’ve never seen anyone use feral in that sense.

Durable enough to stop any physical attack with only a few exceptions (none of which are available to the rest of the cast).

That is just how it is. It seals all attacks except dragon attacks and indirect (projectile) attacks.

Movement wise he is 11/7 or 57% faster than a standard seasoned foot soldier.

We are talking about flesh and blood characters not some cheap masonry.

We are not in the Sonicverse anymore.

He still has to worry about falling into pits in his games, right?

From the sky where meteors normally come from?

(facepalm) You have just lost all of my respect on these boards.

Well that is an interesting way to make dinner.

@ Munomario777 If Sonic is so fast then how come I don't recall him pulling any Flash Step shenanigans?

 

[Munomario777]

Parts of Bowser/Sonic are Kirby's own size.

I doubt that Kirby will get anywhere trying to spin Sonic's shoe around, or twist (giant) Bowser's claw.

What force, exactly?

It seems to resemble a rocket ship taking off. Stars appear below Marx, and he launches off at high speeds.

Not all of them.

The ones we do see are completely unscathed.

Any of the strong attacks they use.

Such as?

Kirby ducks.

Samus would likely be aiming low enough to catch the duck, given their height difference.

Yes.

When does he?

He didn't use that move in the games.

He creates tornadoes in the games.

Kirby launches enemies several Kirbies, and each one is only a bit smaller than a foot. Maybe he launched them more than one yard.

In the video, the enemy moves about two Kirbies from its original position. That's under two feet.

That's the same amount of delay as when regular Marx was knocked back.

Thank you for drawing that parallel, actually. Marx Soul waits a moment, and teleports away. Kirby doesn't power the teleportation. Marx waits a moment, and launches off. Kirby doesn't power the launch.

Also, seeing as Marx just absorbed the energy as a planet, Marx Soul would be a lot heavier than regular Marx.

He can fly just as well. Converting mass into energy and storing said raw energy doesn't add a significant amount of weight, does it? If so, prove it.

Why would any of those things occur?

They could occur, because he's human.

The definition of block is, "put an obstacle in the way of (something proposed or attempted)." Seems very different.

Let's say I blocked with a shield. I'm putting an obstacle (the shield) in the way of something attempted (the attack). This also nullifies the attack, or makes it ineffective.

Former.

When is this stated?

Yet, the most powerful attacks from the object would.

Prove that these are the most powerful attacks.

The effect of a sword is striking and thrusting.

No, that's the cause. The sword strikes an object, causing the effect of the object getting sliced.

Except this isn't a rule, it's a move.

And the rules state that said move must be respected.

Super Sonic isn't immune to having his moves disabled. That isn't his effect.

Disable isn't able to penetrate defenses like Protect. That isn't its effect.

Pokemon items aren't actually held either; Pokemon without hands can hold them. He'd use the Emeralds and the Rings.

Mewtwo can only take away one item at once, and by the time he'd take away even all of the Emeralds, Sonic would already freeze time.

Super Sonic isn't immune to having his skills swapped. That isn't his effect.

Skill Swap isn't able to penetrate defenses like Protect. That isn't its effect.

You can still control where things are launched.

Not if you're doing the exact same thing every time.

Then how do we know what's different and what isn't?

We assume that the clone only has what it's been shown to have, and don't use speculation. Simple.

That was the clearest thing I could find.

Well, it seems like it's a result of landing on the platform, and plus, the knockback isn't as major as the type Sonic demonstrates. And that was on heavy-duty robots, not light pink puffballs.

If his mouth was a portal, the organs would go into it.

It only affects things going into his mouth. If it affected Kirby himself, his skin etc might implode into it as well.

Yet, if you take a city small enough so Sonic could hit it all at once, keeping its durability, its durability still wouldn't stack up to Kirby's.

You have yet to prove that.

I'm also curious when Sonic has used the LSA to destroy like a city.

He hasn't, but simple math tells us that he would pack quite a punch. It's just that the gameplay mechanic of non-destructible environments gets in the way.

The explosion is white.

Same thing applies.

A) He destroys them.
B) How would either of those things make them vulnerable?

A) How? He has no Copy Ability, and his mouth is full.
B) Water Kirby lacks any special defensive capabilities, and switching Copy Abilities takes a second.

Kirby would have to be on the ground for that to happen, but he's in the air.

Bowser grabs Kirby and puts him on the ground.

Except Bowser is the one going to sleep, not Kirby.

Does Sleep not involve Kirby falling asleep?

A) Bowser can't react to Baton Kirby's beam.
B) If Bowser blocked it, Kirby would just blow up his hand, and then keep becoming Baton Kirby to blow up other parts.
C) The victim explodes when Kirby tosses the baton.

A) It doesn't seem particularly fast from the footage.
B) Kirby can't control multiple objects at once, can he?
C) It seems to require some rapid spinning beforehand.

It chops through mountains.

Small mountains.

Even so, Kirby can chop off his body parts individually.

Meanwhile, Bowser uses his other body parts to attack Kirby.

Um, what?

Flamethrowers and burning logs both consist of fire, whereas Kirby's stars do not. Therefore, burning logs are more similar to flamethrowers than Kirby's stars are.

If you get in a car crash, the state of shock doesn't stop you from moving.

I meant voluntary movement, not movement due to momentum.

It's visually the same. That's the evidence.

It lacks the charge (or at least, seems to). It's also visually the same as the other non-charged techniques.

Prove it.

Are you joking?

Animal Statues Kirby can jump, and he doesn't need to be fast to go over it.

The fireballs are rather fast, and Mario could get close up and shoot as well.

Yet, he has more health, he is more durable, and he is more powerful, meaning he isn't a Mario enemy. Aside from that, he isn't an enemy in his own series either.

Power has nothing to do with durability. Kirby might be able to survive more attacks, but they're on a smaller scale. Mario's stomping attacks would naturally be more powerful than, say, a Waddle Dee's jumping attack. Being classified as an "enemy" is rather irrelevant here, but I will say that Kirby is the enemy of, say the Waddle Dees (except Bandanna Dee).

A) This isn't a stomping attack.
B) Kirby would be near his head, so Mario wouldn't be able to dodge it.

A) It's an attack from above, using downwards force to kill the target by hitting their head. It's at least similar to a stomping attack.
B) Kirby would actually have to get up there first.

Then what is this?

An unofficial wiki page.

A) What will the drill even do for Mario in the first place?
B) Kirby throws Mario to the end of the arena; he won't be able to drill through that.

A) Help him escape the situation you described.
B) What do you mean by that? You mean the wall?

A) Will do what, exactly?
B) Can Mario get anything out before Kirby kills him?

A) Knock Kirby away and allow Mario to escape.
B) It depends on the method that Kirby uses.

You need a strong grab to throw things around the sun.

Keeping a grip on a held object and throwing said object are two different feats. Kirby's small arms would hamper his ability to do the former.

Aside from this, how does Mario counter Ultra Sword Kirby chopping him into pieces?

By getting out of the way of the extremely telegraphed attack.

Which one of Mario's abilities change? Also, Reveal Glass changes abilities too.

As an example, the Ice Flower in Super Mario Galaxy changes Mario's ability of swimming in water to one of creating walking on top of water.

They aren't more similar, and what does commonality have to do with anything?

If one thing is more common, the other thing is an outlier, and thus we use the former.

If it's not moving, yes.

This wheel is moving; it's spinning around.

Laser beams are always active, so it isn't conditional. You added "moving" and "not moving" as conditions for the wheel.

Laser beams aren't always active (which I will now reword as "firing"); they could be charging. The conditions of "firing" and "moving" are already applied to the laser beam and the wall, respectively.

Actually, it's about Mario.

No, this stemmed from crushing wall vs laser. Super Sonic is killed by crushing walls. I stated that we agreed that, at most, this is a deity attack (in regards to Super Sonic's relative durability against deity attacks), at which point you suddenly changed the topic to Mario.

A) A Thwomp isn't a crushing wall.
B) Thwomps are enemies, explaining why the items destroy them. Mewtwo's laser beam isn't an enemy.

A) It's a wall that crushes things.
B) It's an attack from an enemy.

They were just generated to correspond to you transforming.

Generated by what exactly?

How do you know they turn into the multiple planetoids?

Because said planetoids aren't present beforehand.

Then what is solid proof?

If there was, say, Professor Oak stating that PP isn't energy, that would be solid proof.

Not necessarily.

How so?

It's spinning clockwise.

I didn't see it change direction, whichever way it was spinning.

Kirby's spinning it vertically.

Then he attacks from the part that Kirby's Hypernova will inevitably not cover.

A) Does time freezing activate with the same lack of starting lag?
C) Yes. Also, the stone is frozen in time, so Sonic couldn't remove it.

A) Since it's the same technique, we can safely assume so. We don't get a good shot of it activating.
C) Sonic can affect other things from a Chaos Control state. If the stone is intangible, how is Kirby holding it?

A) The transformation stops him from moving.
B) The Boost doesn't have enough range to reach Kirby.

A) For a brief moment.
B) It has the speed to reach him before he could even blink.

He doesn't talk about anything in particular in the entries, so he talks about whatever. In Pikmin 2, he's supposed to be talking about the treasure.

In Pikmin 1, he mentions his family and his longing for them multiple times.

Talking about it.

Okay...

We were talking about the scanner though, not the ship's AI.

The AI generates the sales pitches.

He could be doing some of that on the ship.

And he could not be doing some of that on the ship.

It still wouldn't take 25 Pikmin to reduce the force of one bullet.

Prove it.

Olimar flies in the spaceship to dodge the missiles.

Unless there are too many to dodge. If Olimar can't dodge an asteroid that isn't even trying to attack him, I doubt he could shake off multiple heat-seeking missiles.

Unless you're scared to oppose.

Why would Olimar be afraid to edit a lying sales pitch?

There are monsters in the next part of the LP.

Due to sense.

Or lack thereof.

Depression causes pain, and therefore, it would cause damage in Pikmin.

Prove that emotional pain causes physical damage. Actually, I can provide evidence that it doesn't. Olimar is clearly missing his family in the first game, and that would surely cause some sort of emotional pain. However, he suffers no physical damage because of this.

Wait, what irresponsibility are you talking about anyways?

Throwing the Pikmin at deadly monsters.

That's still the Pikmin's decision.

And Olimar is irresponsible for throwing them.

Bad at making accurate conclusions?

Inconsistent at it, rather.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

How is disproving disproof circular reasoning?

You and I both said they weren't energy.

You compared Star Bits to actual bits of stars. I provided evidence that they're not the same thing. I don't see how this supports your point.

Again, logic. Statement with proof > statement without proof.

This isn't logic, it's speculation.

So how doesn't the black hole suck up Mario when he isn't in front of/behind it?

The black hole has no front or back, so this doesn't make much sense.

I was only comparing it to Mario black holes.

I see.

But not inescapably by Rosalina's opponents.

I don't see why hundreds of Lumas couldn't create hundreds of galaxies.

But they don't control the direction after propulsion.

They control it before then.

Just because he can destroy things, that doesn't mean he can move them.

Destroying something involves movement.

When does Sonic knocks things back?

He performs at least one of those actions when he destroys something.

It takes about a second. Why would Sonic be moving at a higher speed?

Because he can, and it's faster.

Is he using the Spin Dash when he boosts?

He's capable of doing so.

It involves being in a wild state. As in, state of mind.

I'm pretty sure teeth (one of the examples given in the definition) can't have a feral state of mind.

Yet, he still chooses to, which is a mental action. Instincts are responses, but Sonic wasn't responding to anything.

He's beginning to defend an area, which is when wolves often howl due to instinct.

A war cry is a choice, and choices are done mentally.

So Sonic decides to yell to start a match. How does that mean that he'll be deterred from attacking Marth due to the Darksphere (the root of this conversation)?

When Sonic freezes time, he isn't underwater.

And?

If he did, he wouldn't freeze other characters in time when he used it.

That's his intent.

He'd be out of the Power Bomb's range when he was charging.

How would he get there quickly enough?

It would be weakened anyways.

How?

A) The Power Bomb directionally attacks once. If is attacking the guard, it wouldn't attack Kirby.
B) The light that does not get reflected gets either absorbed (mostly) or transmitted (usually only for very thin film mirrors). The portion that gets absorbed is transformed into heat, which is transferred into the mirror material.
C) The same applies for Samus' attack, after weakened by the first guard.

A) It lasts for long enough that it would hit Kirby after the shield was penetrated.
B) And?
C) It's not weakened. It's just postponed.

I didn't see him go fast.

He gets around quickly enough. Nothing superhuman for his scale, but it's worth noting.

Damage from all physical attacks is reduced to 1. The armor works on attacks from universal weapons.

I see.

Seems fast enough.

Bikes can move at up to 22 MPH.

How fast is it in-game.

You might have to ask @Dryn about the speed of Palutena's flying.

Okay, then.

Attacks from continental dragons.

How powerful are said attacks? Also, doesn't it only seal non-dragon attacks?

You're assuming that Mega Mario would kill Ike.

Yes, because Ike is human, and Mega Mario can destroy things that are more durable than humans.

Greatly boosts the avoiding capabilities of the user.

How much so?

If the Pokemon walked near him, it would.

I see.

How do you know Olimar is unreliable?

Because of reasons being discussed above.

Prove it.

It's a common trope. What being uses the crown to its fullest extent, out of curiosity?

Force ≠ resistance to effects.

As in, what is the explanation for Counter returning the effects?

We don't see.

Then we can't assume.

I was talking about the part when Dedede spat Kirby to another planet. Such feat makes Kirby's feats a non-outlier.

How does being spit out by Dedede prove anything?

He's not losing the Rings, he's losing the effects of them.

Again, Sonic doesn't automatically die when this happens.

Same applies to items that Magic Room has negated.

Prove that, say, a potion is absorbed into the bodies of Pokemon.

Powerful enough to one shot Super Sonic that’s for sure!

Prove it. Super Sonic can tank attacks from planet-destroying deities multiple times over.

No weapons are required for Counter to activate.

So an unarmed unit can use Counter?

You didn’t answer that question. The tooltip has never stated that in FE7-10 and the only thing that implies that is the Luck booster (Goddess Icon/Ashera Icon) item.

I haven't found in-game descriptions, so I'm going with the wiki for now.

Neither does the Luck stat.

It's under debate.

Excuses from a Sonic fan.

The same thing applies to, say, Samus's Power Bomb.

My eyes could track him and he wasn’t even a blur.

Because gameplay misrepresents it.

Have you forgotten that we are dealing with microscopic bullets here?

With a smaller point of impact, and thus better piercing ability.

Some advanced societies are incredibly peaceful.

And we don't see any indication of this for Hocotate, do we?

I’ve never seen anyone use feral in that sense.

I'm seeing it on the dictionary page.

Durable enough to stop any physical attack with only a few exceptions (none of which are available to the rest of the cast).

Such as?

That is just how it is. It seals all attacks except dragon attacks and indirect (projectile) attacks.

"That's just how it is" isn't convincing evidence.

Movement wise he is 11/7 or 57% faster than a standard seasoned foot soldier.

How fast is that?

We are talking about flesh and blood characters not some cheap masonry.

Flesh and blood are less durable than steel and bricks.

We are not in the Sonicverse anymore.

We're using physics from each character's game for that chaacter; I believe that was voted for.

He still has to worry about falling into pits in his games, right?

Not while using the Light Speed Dash.

From the sky where meteors normally come from?

And Bowser isn't exactly bringing the sky with him in this fight.

(facepalm) You have just lost all of my respect on these boards.

I just forgot...

Well that is an interesting way to make dinner.

Quite.

@ Munomario777 If Sonic is so fast then how come I don't recall him pulling any Flash Step shenanigans?

I think I remember something like that from one of the TV series. The Quick Step is sort of similar to that.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I doubt that Kirby will get anywhere trying to spin Sonic's shoe around, or twist (giant) Bowser's claw.

A) Who said he'd have to spin them?
B) He's firing the beam at Sonic's midsection.

It seems to resemble a rocket ship taking off. Stars appear below Marx, and he launches off at high speeds.

That would just be the blast from Kirby's attack.

The ones we do see are completely unscathed.

There are other parts that could have been scathed.

Such as?

Nightmare's tornado drill, Galacta Knight's Knight Beam, Marx Soul's black hole, etc.

Samus would likely be aiming low enough to catch the duck, given their height difference.

If he was ducking, it would take a while for her to aim it in the right spot. She could aim in front of or behind him.

When does he?

He can inhale Miracle Matter's electric attacks.

He creates tornadoes in the games.

They're several different moves with varying properties.

In the video, the enemy moves about two Kirbies from its original position. That's under two feet.

What enemy were you looking at?

Thank you for drawing that parallel, actually. Marx Soul waits a moment, and teleports away. Kirby doesn't power the teleportation. Marx waits a moment, and launches off. Kirby doesn't power the launch.

And how do you know Marx Soul wasn't launched?

He can fly just as well. Converting mass into energy and storing said raw energy doesn't add a significant amount of weight, does it? If so, prove it.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence) Whenever energy is added to a system, the system gains mass
(http://socratic.org/questions/how-does-mass-affect-weight) So in a same place, in a same gravitacional field, as mass gets bigger, weight also does so.

They could occur, because he's human.

But why would they?

Let's say I blocked with a shield. I'm putting an obstacle (the shield) in the way of something attempted (the attack). This also nullifies the attack, or makes it ineffective.

A shield doesn't make the attack ineffective, it just gets in the way.

When is this stated?

They put it in the movie.

Prove that these are the most powerful attacks.

They do the most damage.

No, that's the cause. The sword strikes an object, causing the effect of the object getting sliced.

Striking is an effect, not a cause.

And the rules state that said move must be respected.

A) What rule states that?
B) What's your point?

Disable isn't able to penetrate defenses like Protect. That isn't its effect.

You're breaking the rules.

Mewtwo can only take away one item at once, and by the time he'd take away even all of the Emeralds, Sonic would already freeze time.

A) Magic Room negates all items.
B) He's negating the Rings, not the Emeralds.

Skill Swap isn't able to penetrate defenses like Protect. That isn't its effect.

Breaking the rules again.

Not if you're doing the exact same thing every time.

Yes you can.

We assume that the clone only has what it's been shown to have, and don't use speculation. Simple.

We see that it has Galaxia and the Dimensional Cape. That isn't speculation.

Well, it seems like it's a result of landing on the platform, and plus, the knockback isn't as major as the type Sonic demonstrates. And that was on heavy-duty robots, not light pink puffballs.

It's a result of him flying up. The amount of knockback isn't relevant.

It only affects things going into his mouth. If it affected Kirby himself, his skin etc might implode into it as well.

Brain nerves go into the mouth.

You have yet to prove that.

He survives hits from planetary threats.

He hasn't, but simple math tells us that he would pack quite a punch. It's just that the gameplay mechanic of non-destructible environments gets in the way.

And what about the bosses that Sonic has used the LSA on?

Same thing applies.

White + dark doesn't equal purple.

A) How? He has no Copy Ability, and his mouth is full.
B) Water Kirby lacks any special defensive capabilities, and switching Copy Abilities takes a second.

A) Star Spit.
B) Wave Surf makes Kirby invincible. Taking out the time freezing game mechanic, switching Copy Abilities is instant.

Bowser grabs Kirby and puts him on the ground.

A) Kirby is too fast for that to happen.
B) Kirby flies back up.

Does Sleep not involve Kirby falling asleep?

If he uses it on someone else, it doesn't.

A) It doesn't seem particularly fast from the footage.
B) Kirby can't control multiple objects at once, can he?
C) It seems to require some rapid spinning beforehand.

A) It does, actually.
B) He does it one after the other.
C) When was it stated that he had to spin it?

Small mountains.

What makes you think they're small?

Meanwhile, Bowser uses his other body parts to attack Kirby.

Kirby chops off those parts too.

Flamethrowers and burning logs both consist of fire, whereas Kirby's stars do not. Therefore, burning logs are more similar to flamethrowers than Kirby's stars are.

What does this prove?

I meant voluntary movement, not movement due to momentum.

Same thing.

It lacks the charge (or at least, seems to).

Prove this.

It's also visually the same as the other non-charged techniques.

Prove this too.

Are you joking?

No.

The fireballs are rather fast, and Mario could get close up and shoot as well.

Kirby trips Mario and attacks.

Power has nothing to do with durability.

Kirby is more durable too.

Kirby might be able to survive more attacks, but they're on a smaller scale. Mario's stomping attacks would naturally be more powerful than, say, a Waddle Dee's jumping attack.

Mario's stomping attacks are much weaker than other attacks that Kirby has survived.

Being classified as an "enemy" is rather irrelevant here, but I will say that Kirby is the enemy of, say the Waddle Dees (except Bandanna Dee).

Then why did you bring enemies up?

A) It's an attack from above, using downwards force to kill the target by hitting their head. It's at least similar to a stomping attack.
B) Kirby would actually have to get up there first.

A) Why couldn't Kirby do it up?
B) This is after Mario gets rid of his flying power-up. Mario is coming to Kirby.

An unofficial wiki page.

All of Mario's power-ups transform him.

A) Help him escape the situation you described.
B) What do you mean by that? You mean the wall?

A) How?
B) Yes.

A) Knock Kirby away and allow Mario to escape.
B) It depends on the method that Kirby uses.

A) Does Mario even have any attacks that will knock Kirby away?
B) Fire Breath.

Keeping a grip on a held object and throwing said object are two different feats. Kirby's small arms would hamper his ability to do the former.

Both feats involve strength of the same hand muscles.

By getting out of the way of the extremely telegraphed attack.

And what if Kirby holds him in place?

Aside from this, Hypernova Kirby has the force of a veritable (not hyperbole) black hole. Mario and Bowser have no counter for this.

As an example, the Ice Flower in Super Mario Galaxy changes Mario's ability of swimming in water to one of creating walking on top of water.

Except most of Mario's power-ups don't change his abilities.

If one thing is more common, the other thing is an outlier, and thus we use the former.

That's when a single thing shows differences. Reveal Glass and Mega Stones aren't the same thing.

This wheel is moving; it's spinning around.

I meant actually going somewhere.

Laser beams aren't always active (which I will now reword as "firing"); they could be charging. The conditions of "firing" and "moving" are already applied to the laser beam and the wall, respectively.

Fair enough.

No, this stemmed from crushing wall vs laser. Super Sonic is killed by crushing walls. I stated that we agreed that, at most, this is a deity attack (in regards to Super Sonic's relative durability against deity attacks), at which point you suddenly changed the topic to Mario.

It was always Mewtwo vs Mario.

A) It's a wall that crushes things.
B) It's an attack from an enemy.

A) It's not a wall.
B) It involves the user touching Mario. Mewtwo doesn't do that with his beams.

Generated by what exactly?

The transformation.

Because said planetoids aren't present beforehand.

And?

If there was, say, Professor Oak stating that PP isn't energy, that would be solid proof.

So what method are you using to prove your statement, exactly?

How so?

Bonus cutscenes aren't.

I didn't see it change direction, whichever way it was spinning.

I did.

Then he attacks from the part that Kirby's Hypernova will inevitably not cover.

Whatever that may be, it is is too small for Sonic to reach.

A) Since it's the same technique, we can safely assume so. We don't get a good shot of it activating.
C) Sonic can affect other things from a Chaos Control state. If the stone is intangible, how is Kirby holding it?

A) You mean you can't find a video of it?
C) Can he take them? Kirby is intangible too.

A) For a brief moment.
B) It has the speed to reach him before he could even blink.

A) Kirby inhales during the moment.
B) And not the distance.

In Pikmin 1, he mentions his family and his longing for them multiple times.

Because he wasn't supposed to be talking about anything else.

The AI generates the sales pitches.

We were talking about the scanner though.

And he could not be doing some of that on the ship.

If he had stress, why wouldn't he?

Prove it.

The bullet is constantly suffering a drop in force for each Pikmin. It wouldn't have that much force after less than 25 Pikmin.

Unless there are too many to dodge. If Olimar can't dodge an asteroid that isn't even trying to attack him, I doubt he could shake off multiple heat-seeking missiles.

Olimar flies high in the sky.

Why would Olimar be afraid to edit a lying sales pitch?

The ship might leave him.

There are monsters in the next part of the LP.

And Olimar doesn't experience them when he gets the knife.

Or lack thereof.

How does he lack sense because of thinking something ridiculous is false?

Prove that emotional pain causes physical damage. Actually, I can provide evidence that it doesn't. Olimar is clearly missing his family in the first game, and that would surely cause some sort of emotional pain. However, he suffers no physical damage because of this.

Depression causes physical pain.

Throwing the Pikmin at deadly monsters.

And Olimar is irresponsible for throwing them.

That's the Pikmin's responsibility/irresponsibility.

Inconsistent at it, rather.

I've seen much, much, much more accurate conclusions than inaccurate conclusions made from Olimar.

How is disproving disproof circular reasoning?

You used your argument to disprove it.

If Star Bits were compressed water, they'd deflect each other.

You compared Star Bits to actual bits of stars. I provided evidence that they're not the same thing. I don't see how this supports your point.

You provided evidence that Star Bits weren't energy.

This isn't logic, it's speculation.

Reasoning that she can't > lack of reasoning that she can.

The black hole has no front or back, so this doesn't make much sense.

So the black hole doesn't have any range?

I don't see why hundreds of Lumas couldn't create hundreds of galaxies.

They don't have enough Star Bits.

They control it before then.

But they don't have any sort of control afterwards.

Destroying something involves movement.

Of the destroyer.

He performs at least one of those actions when he destroys something.

When time is frozen?

Because he can, and it's faster.

"Because he can" isn't an argument, and you haven't proved that it's faster.

He's capable of doing so.

Prove it.

I'm pretty sure teeth (one of the examples given in the definition) can't have a feral state of mind.

That definition says "feral" means that an animal is wild. Being wild could also be why he resisted Dark Gaia's influences.

He's beginning to defend an area, which is when wolves often howl due to instinct.

How does he know the area needs to be defended?

So Sonic decides to yell to start a match. How does that mean that he'll be deterred from attacking Marth due to the Darksphere (the root of this conversation)?

Deciding to howl means he's feral, and being feral means he can resist the Darksphere's influences. Sonic doesn't decide to howl, so he can't resist the influences.

And?

Sonic can breathe at any time or place, except when is he is underwater. When he freezes time, he isn't underwater, so he can breathe.

That's his intent.

So he chooses to freeze Shadow/Silver in time?

How would he get there quickly enough?

Jet Kirby flies at Mach 5.

How?

The mirror guard reflects most of it back.

A) It lasts for long enough that it would hit Kirby after the shield was penetrated.
B) And?
C) It's not weakened. It's just postponed.

A) Prove it.
B) Proving that some of the attack gets reflected.
C) The first guard reflects most of it back, thus weakening the attack.

He gets around quickly enough. Nothing superhuman for his scale, but it's worth noting.

Okay.

How fast is it in-game?

We don't know if Ness is moving at his top speeds or not.

How powerful are said attacks?

Continental or so.

Also, doesn't it only seal non-dragon attacks?

Yes, but if these guys weren't dragons, the attacks would be sealed.

Yes, because Ike is human, and Mega Mario can destroy things that are more durable than humans.

Ike is much more durable than the average human, or anything that Mega Mario has destroyed.

How much so?

By 10.

It's a common trope.

Then what are some other examples?

What being uses the crown to its fullest extent, out of curiosity?

Magolor.

As in, what is the explanation for Counter returning the effects?

There isn't one.

Then we can't assume.

Why wouldn't the bosses use their destructive attacks on Kirby?

How does being spit out by Dedede prove anything?

Did you even read what I said?

Again, Sonic doesn't automatically die when this happens.

Then what happens?

Prove that, say, a potion is absorbed into the bodies of Pokemon.

Exeggcutor can hold potions. Exeggcutor has no hands.

Prove it. Super Sonic can tank attacks from planet-destroying deities multiple times over.

Monados pack universal power. Universe >>>>> planet.

 

[Crystanium]

A fellow I've been debating with told me a little more about bolt of lightning. While watching Sonic battle Perfect Chaos, I only saw the player get up to his maximum speed by using the boosts on the ground. It looks like Sonic takes a lot of time to get to his maximum speed otherwise. What I mean is this person I've been talking to said his playthrough took him about 15 seconds for bolt of lightning to be in effect. What this means then is if Sonic reaches his maximum speed in 15 seconds, then each second he'll increase his speed by Mach 19.44 each second and be at 224,000 mi/h at 15 seconds. So let's take Sonic's speed at 1 second. Sonic will produce 3.504836 * 10^6 N, or 393.96 tons-force.

By the way, Kirby's "veritable black hole" it's figurative. "Veritable" means "Used as an intensifier, often to qualify a metaphor".

 

[Munomario777]

A) Who said he'd have to spin them?
B) He's firing the beam at Sonic's midsection.

A) Is that not what Batom Kirby is meant to do?
B) And Sonic is too big for Baton to control.

That would just be the blast from Kirby's attack.

Kirby's attack sends Marx sideways, and then he flies upwards.

There are other parts that could have been scathed.

"X could have happened" is not solid proof.

Nightmare's tornado drill, Galacta Knight's Knight Beam, Marx Soul's black hole, etc.

Do these destroy planets?

If he was ducking, it would take a while for her to aim it in the right spot. She could aim in front of or behind him.

Samus has no problem tracking moving targets, let alone ducking ones.

He can inhale Miracle Matter's electric attacks.

And how powerful are these?

They're several different moves with varying properties.

None of which have the properties of the tornado from the anime.

What enemy were you looking at?

The one at the timestamp you linked to.

And how do you know Marx Soul wasn't launched?

It was. It got launched sideways a bit, just like regular Marx.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence) Whenever energy is added to a system, the system gains mass
(http://socratic.org/questions/how-does-mass-affect-weight) So in a same place, in a same gravitacional field, as mass gets bigger, weight also does so.

Reading a bit more into this, I found that one million joules of energy (enough to light a one-watt lightbulb for about 11.5 days) translates to one billionth of a kilogram. We don't know for sure how much energy Marx Soul gains from this, but I somewhat doubt that a conversion with that ratio would change the launch from escape velocity to a couple of inches to the side.

But why would they?

Because he's human.

A shield doesn't make the attack ineffective, it just gets in the way.

Thus making it ineffective.

They put it in the movie.

When does Mewtwo destroy a planet in the movie?

They do the most damage.

The most powerful attacks it's capable of delivering, not that appears in the boss(es).

Striking is an effect, not a cause.

It's both. It's the effect of moving one's arm, but it's the cause of an object being damaged.

A) What rule states that?
B) What's your point?

A) The rules of Pokemon do.
B) The Pokemon let the slower character move first because of the rules that their trainer agreed to.

You're breaking the rules.

How so? If Disable can't affect a non-invincible Pokemon inside of a force field, then I doubt that it could affect an invincible hedgehog. Even if force fields are for whatever reason the only thing that can block these moves, Sonic has those in the form of the Shields.

A) Magic Room negates all items.
B) He's negating the Rings, not the Emeralds.

A) Not Mega Stones.
B) Then Sonic is free to teleport out.

Breaking the rules again.

See above.

Yes you can.

Prove that you can change where an attack launches something without changing the attack or its properties.

We see that it has Galaxia and the Dimensional Cape. That isn't speculation.

No, we see a sword and a cape.

It's a result of him flying up.

He stops only when he lands on the platform.

The amount of knockback isn't relevant.

It is. The more momentum Kirby has (supplied by greater knockback), the harder it will be for him to stop.

Brain nerves go into the mouth.

Point?

He survives hits from planetary threats.

Which means nothing unless we know how powerful the actual attacks are.

And what about the bosses that Sonic has used the LSA on?

He deals double the damage to Chaos... 6 I think it was? Seeing as how this boss is made of water, brute force wouldn't be the best way to get rid of it.

White + dark doesn't equal purple.

Right. It seems more pinkish in his farther from the center.

A) Star Spit.
B) Wave Surf makes Kirby invincible. Taking out the time freezing game mechanic, switching Copy Abilities is instant.

A) Due to its relative slowness and inability to cover all angles, it won't work here.
B) No, taking out time freezing, it still takes a second.

A) Kirby is too fast for that to happen.
B) Kirby flies back up.

A) Fair enough. This could work out Kirby loses Jet and the Warp Star, though.
B) Right into Bowser's spiky shell.

If he uses it on someone else, it doesn't.

From what I can tell, obtaining the Sleep ability puts Kirby to sleep automatically.

A) It does, actually.
B) He does it one after the other.
C) When was it stated that he had to spin it?

A) It takes a few seconds to reach its target.
B) But he can't keep Bowser's hand from blocking the beam.
C) He seems to be charging up for it beforehand, with the spinning becoming more and more rapid.

What makes you think they're small?

Kirby's relative size to them.

Kirby chops off those parts too.

Not quick enough to prevent Bowser from attacking.

What does this prove?

That energy attacks don't necessarily negate one another.

Same thing.

Not really. In a car crash, your body is moving (due to inertia), but the shock, pain, etc prevents you from acting, at least for a moment. The same applies to Kirby crashing the Warp Star.

Prove this.

Prove that it does have a charge.

Prove this too.

Both involve Kirby flying through the air and making sharp turns (at least, some attacks in game do).

No.

Okay, then.

Kirby trips Mario and attacks.

Kirby is in stone form. If Kirby tries to trip Mario (presumably by getting in the way of his feet), he's just making himself an easy target for a fireball.

Mario's stomping attacks are much weaker than other attacks that Kirby has survived.

That's irrelevant to the Gold Flower.

Then why did you bring enemies up?

Because Kirby is similar in mass to them (being very generous to Kirby here).

A) Why couldn't Kirby do it up?
B) This is after Mario gets rid of his flying power-up. Mario is coming to Kirby.

A) Because Stone falls down.
B) You said that Kirby could fly above Mario and use Stone to attack him. I'm pointing out that Kirby is rather vulnerable while flying (using Stone, at least).

All of Mario's power-ups transform him.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

A) How?
B) Yes.

A) Did you not describe Kirby trapping Mario in a wall or something?
B) It's a drill. Drills can go through things like concrete.

A) Does Mario even have any attacks that will knock Kirby away?
B) Fire Breath.

A) He has a mean soccer kick.
B) Mario can take a bit of fire breath.

Both feats involve strength of the same hand muscles.

Throwing something requires the arm muscles, as well as body muscles. Holding onto something requires a good grip, and getting your arms around whatever you're holding onto. Given Kirby's smooth surface and short arms, this wouldn't exactly be his strong point, let alone against someone as large as Mario.

And what if Kirby holds him in place?

He doesn't. He's holding the sword.

Aside from this, Hypernova Kirby has the force of a veritable (not hyperbole) black hole. Mario and Bowser have no counter for this.

How does that prove anything?

Except most of Mario's power-ups don't change his abilities.

They do, by adding abilities.

That's when a single thing shows differences. Reveal Glass and Mega Stones aren't the same thing.

Correct. Magic Room is a single thing. It allows Mega Stones, but not Reveal Glasses. Mega Stones are the majority here (in terms of transformation items), so we use them.

I meant actually going somewhere.

Same thing applies.

It was always Mewtwo vs Mario.

Since when?

A) It's not a wall.
B) It involves the user touching Mario. Mewtwo doesn't do that with his beams.

A) In that case, neither are crusher blocks and the like.
B) Both are attacks.

The transformation.

Then the same would apply for Lumas and black holes.

And?

They become present when the transformation occurs.

So what method are you using to prove your statement, exactly?

Mostly examples from gameplay, with the occasional name meaning to back it up.

Bonus cutscenes aren't.

(circular reasoning Wikipedia link)

I did.

I see it spinning in the same direction. Either way, Sonic can take some spinning. He might not have been shown to suddenly go from spinning in one direction to spinning in another, but he can start spinning instantly at much higher speeds.

Whatever that may be, it is is too small for Sonic to reach.

Unless he shrinks himself.

A) You mean you can't find a video of it?
C) Can he take them? Kirby is intangible too.

A) Not without the unnecessary "Chaos Control" shout, no.
B) Rings and the like can be collected during this, if I'm not mistaken. I don't see how being intangible would help you pick up an intangible object.

A) Kirby inhales during the moment.
B) And not the distance.

A) The transformation is unnecessary if Sonic is just boosting.
B) It crosses the distance.

Because he wasn't supposed to be talking about anything else.

And?

We were talking about the scanner though.

Which is connected to the AI.

If he had stress, why wouldn't he?

I'm not sure he'd know about them at this point. I mean, I doubt he would have studied it, and he likely couldn't look it up online or anything; I hear the cell service is pretty bad in orbit around unexplored alien planets.

The bullet is constantly suffering a drop in force for each Pikmin. It wouldn't have that much force after less than 25 Pikmin.

Prove it.

Olimar flies high in the sky.

As do the missiles.

The ship might leave him.

I doubt that it would be programmed to do so.

And Olimar doesn't experience them when he gets the knife.

Is he under the impression that there are no more monsters to face at this point in time?

How does he lack sense because of thinking something ridiculous is false?

Because it's not ridiculous, and it's true.

Depression causes physical pain.

Source?

That's the Pikmin's responsibility/irresponsibility.

And it's Olimar's for doing it.

I've seen much, much, much more accurate conclusions than inaccurate conclusions made from Olimar.

From what I can gather, the outlandish conclusions seem to often be inaccurate. Guess what else is outlandish? A regular pocket knife slicing through dimensions.

You used your argument to disprove it.

You said that if Star Bits were liquid, they wouldn't stay in the net. I showed that this doesn't prevent the Star Bits from being water that forms into clumps. In fact, water undergoes a similar clumping process in space in real life.

If Star Bits were compressed water, they'd deflect each other.

Prove it.

You provided evidence that Star Bits weren't energy.

They could be. Water gives the body energy, and Star Bits could simply give that energy in its rawest form.

Reasoning that she can't > lack of reasoning that she can.

Your reasoning isn't grounded in examples from canon.

So the black hole doesn't have any range?

Quite the contrary; they can pull Mario in from extremely far away.

They don't have enough Star Bits.

A galaxy costs about 300 Star Bits, and Rosalina has 9,999 of them. That's about 33 galaxies, not to mention that galaxies have Star Bits in them, making them a renewable resource.

But they don't have any sort of control afterwards.

They could still be placed strategically throughout the battlefield.

Of the destroyer.

And the thing being destroyed.

When time is frozen?

Yes.

"Because he can" isn't an argument,

It is. If Sonic is capable of doing something, I'd imagine that he'd take advantage of it.

and you haven't proved that it's faster.

If Sonic's movement is faster, the creation of the tornado (which relies on movement) is faster. Sonic activates it by going in a circle, and the faster he is, the sooner he goes in a circle.

Prove it.

He does so in, say, Sonic Colors for the DS.

That definition says "feral" means that an animal is wild.

It also lists "feral teeth" as an example.

Being wild could also be why he resisted Dark Gaia's influences.

Having a wild exterior is a result of resisting the influences, not a cause.

How does he know the area needs to be defended?

Because it's running rampant with evil monsters.

Deciding to howl means he's feral, and being feral means he can resist the Darksphere's influences. Sonic doesn't decide to howl, so he can't resist the influences.

Prove that Sonic doesn't decide to howl, even though he does so at only specific points.

Sonic can breathe at any time or place, except when is he is underwater. When he freezes time, he isn't underwater, so he can breathe.

Sonic breathes air, and so if the air is frozen, he can't breathe (or move for that matter).

So he chooses to freeze Shadow/Silver in time?

He never actually does that.

Jet Kirby flies at Mach 5.

Only after charging up.

The mirror guard reflects most of it back.

Prove it.

A) Prove it.
B) Proving that some of the attack gets reflected.
C) The first guard reflects most of it back, thus weakening the attack.

The guard would most likely break instantly, and the Power Bomb lasts for about a second.
B) The Power Bomb isn't made of light.
C) You have yet to prove that.

We don't know if Ness is moving at his top speeds or not.

So... how fast is it in game?

Continental or so.

Last I checked, "continental" isn't a measurement of power.

Yes, but if these guys weren't dragons, the attacks would be sealed.

Prove it.

Ike is much more durable than the average human, or anything that Mega Mario has destroyed.

Prove it.

By 10.

So, what does that mean outside of Fire Emblem?

Then what are some other examples?

The Infinity Stones in Guardians of the Galaxy are a good example. Just beware of spoilers!

Magolor.

Does he utilize its "infinite power", and if so, when is this states?

There isn't one.

Then we mustn't extrapolate.

Why wouldn't the bosses use their destructive attacks on Kirby?

To avoid collateral damage.

Did you even read what I said?

Yes. I don't see how getting spit out of Dedede's mouth makes his one-and-done feats non-outliers.

Then what happens?

He simply loses the protection provided by the Rings.

Exeggcutor can hold potions. Exeggcutor has no hands.

Executor has plenty of mouths.

Monados pack universal power. Universe >>>>> planet.

Prove that the attacks in question are this powerful.

 

[Crystanium]

@ Munomario777 , Samus' tracking is especially useful with the dark visor. Whenever warrior ings become amorphous, Samus is unable to remain locked-on. Whatever the reason is unknown. However, with the dark visor, warrior ings remain locked-on, even when amorphous.

As for power bombs, like all nuclear explosives, they generate light. The intensity of the light is magnitudes greater than what Kirby is dealing with. I am not going to assume no limits for any character unless otherwise proved, and that includes Kirby. I'm going to involve myself into this match between Kirby and Sonic. Kirby hasn't displayed any precognitive abilities or even the ability to dodge things traveling even close to 1% the speed of light. As I mentioned in my last post, Sonic will be able to reach Mach 19.44 in 1 second and that will increase another Mach 19.44 per second (Mach 38.88 in 2 seconds) until 15 seconds have passed.

Honestly, if Sonic is massless during light speed dash, he's better off using bolt of lightning. Sure, he'll only be 0.0334% the speed of light, but at least it's not brief and will pack a punch. Maybe Kirby's spark abilities also travel at the speed of lightning, but if Kirby cannot hit Sonic with the attack, then he's done. And since the "thousands of force" was brought up to me twice concerning Samus, at least we have Sonic's ability to hit 3.5 meganewtons, which is a force of 3.5 million. Anyone who is hit by Sonic should turn into paste. Hopefully Sonic can withstand this force as well, or he's dead, too.

 

[Munomario777]

@Dryn

I'd imagine 3.5 meganewtons would hurt quite a bit, haha. I believe that (Super) Sonic can survive crashing into walls etc using the technique in Sonic Adventure, so crashing into foes shouldn't be all that different.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn

I'd imagine 3.5 meganewtons would hurt quite a bit, haha. I believe that (Super) Sonic can survive crashing into walls etc using the technique in Sonic Adventure, so crashing into foes shouldn't be all that different.

I just want to make sure. By the way, I erred. 3.5 meganewtons is when Sonic is at maximum speed. At 1 second (assuming 15 seconds is the duration it takes to reach top speed), Sonic will produce 233,655.75 newtons, which is "thousands of force".

 

[Munomario777]

I just want to make sure. By the way, I erred. 3.5 meganewtons is when Sonic is at maximum speed. At 1 second (assuming 15 seconds is the duration it takes to reach top speed), Sonic will produce 233,655.75 newtons, which is "thousands of force".

What's interesting about this is the fact that dash panels will immediately get Sonic into this "lightning bolt" state. I'd imagine that something like the Spin Dash, Boost, etc would also work for this, as they all send Sonic at his top speeds instantly.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

And Olimar is irresponsible for throwing them.

Prove it. Super Sonic can tank attacks from planet-destroying deities multiple times over.

So an unarmed unit can use Counter?

I haven't found in-game descriptions, so I'm going with the wiki for now.

With a smaller point of impact, and thus better piercing ability.

And we don't see any indication of this for Hocotate, do we?

Such as?

"That's just how it is" isn't convincing evidence.

How fast is that?

Flesh and blood are less durable than steel and bricks.

We're using physics from each character's game for that character; I believe that was voted for.

Not while using the Light Speed Dash.

I think I remember something like that from one of the TV series. The Quick Step is sort of similar to that.

How is throwing Pikmin at deadly beasts irresponsible? How else would you secure food for the Pikmin and treasure for the company? It is far better to attack from above then to swarm from the front.

Lethality doesn’t care how strong your defense is, it just wants you dead! The only enemies with half resistance to it are bosses and final bosses are outright immune. Sonic doesn’t fall into anyone of those categories.

Yes. That includes an archer being attacked at melee range where he can’t strike back with his bow. You will have to ask @ShadowLBlue for video examples because I can’t find where that unarmed Counter to Lethality went to. The fact that it reflects 100% of the damage inflicted by the attacker back to him regardless of the defender’s strength heavily suggests the defender’s weapon isn’t involved in the Counter activation.

I have no idea where the Wiki found that tooltip. If it is in awakening then @ShadowLBlue would know. I still don’t know why the Luck stat would increase on a level up if that was the case. It also isn’t mentioned on the other FE wiki (although that one is a stub).

You forgot to mention less mass and thus less force.

That goes both ways.

Monado Enchant lets normal weapons pierce Mechon armor normally and adds a slight damage bonus. Obviously unavailable.
Via toppling him which can be blocked with a Topple Resist Gem.
Anti-Mechon weapons which are unavailable.
Ether based attacks which can still do 50% of normal damage. It is debatable if magic or Pokemon special attacks would count.

You don’t have convincing evidence either.

Ask @Dryn. I’m not good with this stuff.

Flesh and Blood can get out of the way, while steel and bricks can’t perform barrel rolls.

Which doesn’t work in a normal setting for Sonic.

He can’t use the LSD all the time.

I tried looking for a Quick Step video on YouTube but I only got a mess of fan-mods. You wouldn’t have a link to a competent player using Quick Step would you? I’d like to compare it against another non-Sonic series Sega character.

Unless he shrinks himself.

Prove it.

Prove that the attacks in question are this powerful.

What the?

Normal human beings don’t hold up against having boulders rolling through them https://youtu.be/Owkf-SA1PGA?list=PLcU-h8ycX_j99B9DN6aIZbgnn52bzLoVL&t=1703 at 28:23-29:00.

They can kill other Monado wielders when other attacks would come up short.

I am not going to assume no limits for any character unless otherwise proved, and that includes Kirby.

So that means Sonic is going to get hit every now and then, right?

@ Kirby Dragons Depression cause physical pain, really? I would think the emotional and mental pain would be the real concern!
In regards to the Master Crown, having infinite power doesn’t mean every single attack that comes from it has world destroying power. The world shattering part refers to it’s ability to destroy the world over a period of time rather than with any individual attack.
Ike doesn’t have patience, and even if he did it wouldn’t be the first skill to bring up. In regard to skills.

Effective Fire Emblem Character Skills​

Robin​

Stat boosts:
Strength+2
Magic+2
Skill+2
Defense+2
All stats+2
Hit Rate+20
Avoid+10
Movement+1

Always active:
Renewal: Recovers 30% HP at the start of the user’s turn.
Pass: User can pass through tiles occupied by enemy units.
Acrobat: All traversable terrain cost one movement point to cross.
Iote’s Shield: Negates user’s flying type weakness.
Hex: Avoid-15 to all adjacent enemies.
Anathema: Avoid and critical avoid-10 to all enemies within a 3 tile radius.
Limit Breaker: Raise the user’s STR, MAG, SKL, SPD, LUK, DEF, and RES cap by 10 each.

Conditional boosts:
Outdoor fighter: Hit rate and avoid+10 when fighting outdoors.
Indoor fighter: Hit rate and avoid+10 when fighting indoors.
Swordfaire: STR+5 when equipped with a sword and MAG+5 if equipped with the Levin sword.
Bowfaire: STR+5 when equipped with a bow.
Tomefaire: MAG+5 when equipped with a tome.
Swordbreaker: Hit rate and avoid+50 when the enemy is equipped with an sword.
Lancebreaker: Hit rate and avoid+50 when the enemy is equipped with an lance.
Axebreaker: Hit rate and avoid+50 when the enemy is equipped with an axe.
Bowbreaker: Hit rate and avoid+50 when the enemy is equipped with an bow.
Tomebreaker: Hit rate and avoid+50 when the enemy is equipped with an tome.
Prescience: Hit rate and avoid+15 during the user’s turn.
Patience: Hit rate and avoid+10 during the enemy’s turn.
Lucky Seven: Hit rate and avoid+20 up to the 7th turn.
Quick Burn: Hit rate and avoid+15 at the start of the battle. Effect decreases with every passing turn.
Slow Burn: Hit rate and avoid increase by one each turn, up to the 15th turn (turns off after that).
Tantivy: Hit rate and avoid+10 if no allies are within a 3 tile radius.
Focus: Critical+10 when no allies are within a 3 tile radius.
Lifetaker: User recovers 50% HP after they defeat an enemy during the user’s tome.

Has a chance to activate:
Ignis: Adds MAG/2 to STR for physical attacks and STR/2 for magic attacks. SKL%
Sol: Recover HP equal to half the damage dealt to the enemy. SKL%
Luna: Ignores half of the enemy’s defense or resistance. SKL%
Astra: Deals 5 consecutive half damage hits. SKL/2%
Lethality: Instantly kills the enemy. SKL/4%
Pavise: Halves damage from sword, lance, axes, and beaststones. SKL%
Aegis: Halves damage from bows, tomes, and dragonstones. SKL%
Miracle: Character survives with one HP after receiving an attack that would otherwise KO them (must have more than one HP to activate). Also works on Lethality. LUK%
Vengeance: Inflicts (user’s max HP-current HP)/2 extra damage. SKL*2%
Armsthrift: Attack does not use up weapon durability. LUK*2%

Activates at low health:
Vantage: When HP drops below half, always attack 1st during enemy turn.

Male Robin only:
HP+5
Resistance+10
Aggressor: Attack+10 during the user’s turn.
Zeal: Critical+5
Counter: deals back all damage received when attacked by an adjacent enemy (does not work if the unit with counter is killed by the attack). Works even if he has no weapon equipped.
Gamble: Hit Rate-5, Critical+10
Wrath: Critical+20 when under half HP
Axefaire: STR+5 when equipped with an axe and MAG+5 if equipped with the Bolt axe.

Female Robin only:
Speed+2
Resistance+2
Relief: Recovers 20% HP at the start of the turn if no other units are within a 3 tile radius.
Lancefaire: STR+5 when equipped with a lance and MAG+5 if equipped with the Shockstick.
Galeforce: Allows the user another full action after they defeat an enemy during the user’s turn (only once per player phase).

Lucina (Robin as Mother)​

Everything that Female Robin has plus
Aether: 2 attacks, 1st strike has Sol effect, 2nd strike is Luna. SKL/2%
Rightful King: boosts skill activation by 10%.

Activation rates​

Male Robin:
Lethality=14.5%(chance of activation with brave weapon 26.9%)
Astra=24.8%
Sol=35.21%
Luna=14.79%
Ignis=6.21%
Vengeance=4.5%

Pavise+Aegis=58%
Miracle=58%

Female Robin:
Lethality=15.25% (chance of activation with brave weapon 28.17%)
Astra=25.85%
Sol=35.93%
Luna=14.01%
Ignis=5.47%
Vengeance=3.49%

Pavise+Aegis=61%
Miracle=58%

Lucina (Robin as mother):
Lethality=25.75% (chance of activation with brave weapon 44.87%)
Aether=30.81%
Astra=18.3%
Sol=18.55%
Luna=5.01%
Ignis=1.35%
Vengeance=0.5%

Pavise+Aegis=73%
Miracle=70%

Best Classes​

Male Robin: Wyvern Lord
Female Robin: Dark Flier
Lucina (Robin as mother): Dark Flier

Capped Stats​

Male Robin (asset=skill and flaw=HP):
HP: 80+5+5=90
STR: 47+10+4+2=63
MAG: 29+10+4+2=45
SKL: 42+10+4+2=58
SPD: 38+10+2+2=52
LUK: 44+10+2+2=58
DEF: 47+10+4+2=63
RES: 29+10+12+2=53
MOV: 8+1+2=11

Female Robin (asset=skill and flaw=HP):
HP: 80+5=85
STR: 37+10+4+2=53
MAG: 41+10+4+2=57
SKL: 45+10+4+2=61
SPD: 42+10+4+2=58
LUK: 44+10+2+2=58
DEF: 33+10+4+2=49
RES: 40+10+4+2=56
MOV: 8+1+2=11

Lucina (Robin as mother):
HP: 80+5=85
STR: 39+10+4+2=55
MAG: 42+10+4+2=58
SKL: 47+10+4+2=63
SPD: 44+10+4+2=60
LUK: 46+10+2+2=60
DEF: 33+10+4+2=49
RES: 40+10+4+2=56
MOV: 8+1+2=11

Stats are calculated to include Limit Breaker, stat boosting skills, Boots and Tiki’s Tear.

Battle Stats​

Calculations:
Hit Rate=Weapon’s hit rate+[(SKL*3+LUK)/2]+weapon rank bonus+ weapon triangle effect+ skill bonuses.

Avoid=(SPD*3+LUK)/2+skill bonuses.

Critical=Weapon’s critical+(SKL/2)+skill bonuses.

Weapon triangle effect: Hit rate+15 for advantage, -15 for disadvantage. Sword>Axe>Lance>Sword.

Weapon Rank Bonus: Lance, Bow, and Tomes=hit rate+5, Axes=hit rate+10.

Skill Bonuses: one of either indoor or outdoor fighter (Hit rate and avoid+10), one of either Patience or Prescience (Hit rate and avoid+15 or 10 respectively), Quick Burn and Slow Burn combined for the 1st fifteen turns (Hit rate and avoid+15), Lucky Seven for the 1st seven turns (Hit rate and avoid+20), Tantivy if no allies are within Longbow range (Hit rate and avoid+10), the appropriate “breaker” skill (Hit rate and avoid+50), Hex to enemies in melee range (Avoid-15 to enemy, effectively Hit rate+15), Anathema to all enemies within Longbow range (Avoid and critical avoid-10 to enemy, effectively Hit rate and Critical+10), Focus when no allies within Longbow range (Critical+10), Zeal (Critical+5), Gamble (Hit rate-5, critical+10), Wrath when below half HP (Critical+20), Hit rate+20, Avoid+10.

The following values don’t account for “breaker” skills, Hex, Wrath and use the weaker of the two skills Patience and Prescience. Weapon hit rate, critical rate, weapon triangle effect and weapon rank bonus is ignored as well. Base means discounting skills and going off pure stats.

Male Robin:
Base hit rate=116
With skills=206(Turns 1-7), 186(Turns 8-15), 171(Turn 16+)
Base Avoid=107
With skills= 182(Turns 1-7), 162(Turns 8-15), 147(Turn 16+)
Base Critical=29
With skills=64

Female Robin:
Base hit rate=120
With skills=215(Turns 1-7), 195(Turns 8-15), 180(Turn 16+)
Base Avoid=116
With skills=191(Turns 1-7), 171(Turns 8-15), 156(Turn 16+)
Base Critical=30
With skills=50

Lucina (Robin as mother):
Base hit rate=124
With skills=219(Turns 1-7), 199(Turns 8-15), 184(Turn 16+)
Base Avoid=120
With skills= 195(Turns 1-7), 175(Turns 8-15), 160(Turn 16+)
Base Critical=31
With skills=51

Now I know why the game only lets you use five skills at a time.

As you can see the Robins and Lucina are at their peak at the very beginning of the battle thanks to their skills.
I put in the formulas to show my work and to impress @Dryn.

@ Kirby Dragons @Dryn For Ike's skills should I go with what I believe is the stronger version of a skill from FE9 and FE10 due to the fact that some of them were nerfed going from FE9 to FE10 (particularly Resolve and Vantage)? I will put up a skill analysis for Ike when I get an answer.



In regards to Pokemon Pikachu can OHKO Jigglypuff with Volt Tackle if he is holding the Light Ball so I updated my chart.

Apparently Genius Wario can spot invisible objects http://www.mariowiki.com/Genius_Wario. Wario can also benefit from being hit by certain attacks http://www.mariowiki.com/Bouncy_Wario, http://www.mariowiki.com/Flaming_Wario, http://www.mariowiki.com/Flat_Wario, and http://www.mariowiki.com/Frozen_Wario.

I have compiled a list of Mario power-ups, am I missing any?

Mario Power ups​

Standard:
Super Mushroom

Projectile based:
Fire Flower
Hammer Suit
Super Flower
Ice Flower
Boomerang Flower
Gold Flower

Flight based:
Super Leaf/P Wing
Tanooki Suit (includes statue ability)
Cape Feather
Power Balloon
Carrot (Bunny)
Wing Cap
Bee Mushroom
Boo Mushroom
Red Star
Propeller Mushroom
Super Acorn/P-Acorn

Swimming based:
Frog Suit
Blue Shell
Penguin Suit (Ice balls included)

Invincibility based:
Super Star
Vanish Cap
Metal Cap
Mega Mushroom
Rainbow Star

Copy based:
Copy Flower
Double Cherries

Other:
Mini Mushroom
Life Mushroom
Spring Mushroom
Cloud Flower (can create 3 clouds only)
Rock Mario (rolls around in a boulder)
Statue Leaf
Super Bell
Lucky Bell (has statue form)



@Dryn Do you have any specifics on the two Kong guns and the Orange Grenades?

 

[Crystanium]

What's interesting about this is the fact that dash panels will immediately get Sonic into this "lightning bolt" state. I'd imagine that something like the Spin Dash, Boost, etc would also work for this, as they all send Sonic at his top speeds instantly.

Yep. Again, the person I've been talking to mentioned the boost as a means to get to top speed. Honestly, no one is going to win against Sonic. Even with my argument for Samus' sense move, stopping time will be like moving FTL and Samus won't know what's hitting her. This is how Professor Zoom keeps up with the Flash.

As for the infantry, I don't know the speed, so I can't figure out what 57% of the speed would be.

I'm flattered, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 .

As for stronger versions, I'm not really sure. If something is consistently shown to be stronger or weaker, we should work with that. I also don't have any specifications. I apologize for not getting to that. I'll try to figure things out.

 

[Munomario777]

How is throwing Pikmin at deadly beasts irresponsible? How else would you secure food for the Pikmin and treasure for the company? It is far better to attack from above then to swarm from the front.

Really? I'd say swarming is better. It's more effective in game, and there's power in numbers.

Lethality doesn’t care how strong your defense is, it just wants you dead! The only enemies with half resistance to it are bosses and final bosses are outright immune. Sonic doesn’t fall into anyone of those categories.

Being classified as a "boss" or "final boss" is irrelevant here. What other properties of these enemies might lead to this immunity, in particular the final bosses?

Yes. That includes an archer being attacked at melee range where he can’t strike back with his bow. You will have to ask @ShadowLBlue for video examples because I can’t find where that unarmed Counter to Lethality went to. The fact that it reflects 100% of the damage inflicted by the attacker back to him regardless of the defender’s strength heavily suggests the defender’s weapon isn’t involved in the Counter activation.

I see. Ignoring Counter's requirement of an adjacent foe and the no-limits fallacy required for Robin to deal back all of the force to Sonic, he can survive this force anyways. No matter what his speed is, Sonic can crash into a wall and come out unscathed. Newton's third law of motion saves the day!

I have no idea where the Wiki found that tooltip. If it is in awakening then @ShadowLBlue would know. I still don’t know why the Luck stat would increase on a level up if that was the case. It also isn’t mentioned on the other FE wiki (although that one is a stub).

I see.

You forgot to mention less mass and thus less force.

True, but I'm not sure it's a significant enough decrease.

That goes both ways.

We see rocket ships,

Monado Enchant lets normal weapons pierce Mechon armor normally and adds a slight damage bonus. Obviously unavailable.
Via toppling him which can be blocked with a Topple Resist Gem.
Anti-Mechon weapons which are unavailable.
Ether based attacks which can still do 50% of normal damage. It is debatable if magic or Pokemon special attacks would count.

What is the most powerful attack that the armor can block?

You don’t have convincing evidence either.

You're the one that's trying to prove something.

Flesh and Blood can get out of the way, while steel and bricks can’t perform barrel rolls.

And Mega Mario's flesh and blood is faster. (Unless you have proof of Ike's speed.)

Which doesn’t work in a normal setting for Sonic.

How so?

He can’t use the LSD all the time.

It's rather unnecessary here, since he can already move at the speed of lightning in an instant.

I tried looking for a Quick Step video on YouTube but I only got a mess of fan-mods. You wouldn’t have a link to a competent player using Quick Step would you? I’d like to compare it against another non-Sonic series Sega character.

Sure thing.

What the?

By the power of Sonic '06!

Normal human beings don’t hold up against having boulders rolling through them https://youtu.be/Owkf-SA1PGA?list=PLcU-h8ycX_j99B9DN6aIZbgnn52bzLoVL&t=1703 at 28:23-29:00.

I'm pretty sure pipes do. In fact, Rock Mario is at least that size and travels faster, and he can't even dent a pipe.

They can kill other Monado wielders when other attacks would come up short.

How does this prove their force?

So that means Sonic is going to get hit every now and then, right?

What makes you say that?

Apparently Genius Wario can spot invisible objects http://www.mariowiki.com/Genius_Wario. Wario can also benefit from being hit by certain attacks http://www.mariowiki.com/Bouncy_Wario, http://www.mariowiki.com/Flaming_Wario, http://www.mariowiki.com/Flat_Wario, and http://www.mariowiki.com/Frozen_Wario.

Interesting.

I have compiled a list of Mario power-ups, am I missing any?

Mario Power ups​

Standard:
Super Mushroom

Projectile based:
Fire Flower
Hammer Suit
Super Flower
Ice Flower
Boomerang Flower
Gold Flower

Flight based:
Super Leaf/P Wing
Tanooki Suit (includes statue ability)
Cape Feather
Power Balloon
Carrot (Bunny)
Wing Cap
Bee Mushroom
Boo Mushroom
Red Star
Propeller Mushroom
Super Acorn/P-Acorn

Swimming based:
Frog Suit
Blue Shell
Penguin Suit (Ice balls included)

Invincibility based:
Super Star
Vanish Cap
Metal Cap
Mega Mushroom
Rainbow Star

Copy based:
Copy Flower
Double Cherries

Other:
Mini Mushroom
Life Mushroom
Spring Mushroom
Cloud Flower (can create 3 clouds only)
Rock Mario (rolls around in a boulder)
Statue Leaf
Super Bell
Lucky Bell (has statue form)

Seems like you should be good to go!

Yep. Again, the person I've been talking to mentioned the boost as a means to get to top speed. Honestly, no one is going to win against Sonic. Even with my argument for Samus' sense move, stopping time will be like moving FTL and Samus won't know what's hitting her. This is how Professor Zoom keeps up with the Flash.

Well, I think we've answered the thread then!

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I think we've answered the thread then!

The answer should have been obvious from the get-go. I'm sure this could have been addressed on the first page, but not many are willing to admit loss.

I have figured out the estimate of Link's powder keg. This is from my blog.

In my previous post, I presented evidence defending what type of explosive is used in the Zelda universe and came up with how much energy a single bomb produces. This time, I'm interested in the powder keg. Using the same information as before, I can come up with an estimate. However, I had to do a bit of modifying when it came to figuring out the height of Goron Link and the differences in the size of Goron Link and the powder keg. What I mean is that when Link holds a bomb, the camera kind of pans out, so the amount of pixels will alter.

Goron Link has a height of 217 pixels, where as Link has a height of 116 pixels. Dividing 217 over 116 gives me a 187% difference. I assume Link is 147.32 cm., so that means Goron Link is 275.59 cm. tall. With this in mind, I can transition this information onto the powder keg. When Goron Link is holding the powder keg, he's 125 pixels tall, so we can say that 125 pixels is equal to 275.59 cm. While I should be looking for the height of the powder keg, the way I must calculate would actually require me to rotate the powder keg so that the length becomes the height.

One side of the powder keg is 32 pixels, but I'm going to only use 31 pixels because I'm going to assume the casing is a pixel thick and all I really care about is the gunpowder inside of it. This means 31 pixels is equal to 68.35 cm. The length of the powder keg is 82 pixels, but again, I only care about the inside of the powder keg and am assuming the casing is 1 pixel thick, so 81 pixels is 178.58 cm. Now that we have the numbers, using the formula to find the volume of a hexagonal prism gives us 2,167,307.92 cm^3. Using 1.7 g/cm^3 gives us 3,684,423.47 g., and since there's 3,000 J/g in gunpowder, energy of a powder keg is 11,053,270,400.01 J, or 2.64 tons of TNT.

 

[monzer]

I just realized that Kirby can summon 3 other clones of himself, plus one helper. Should Kirby be allowed to do this? Sets has also said that hyper sonic isn't canon so should sonic be allowed to transform into hyper sonic?

 

[Munomario777]

I just realized that Kirby can summon 3 other clones of himself, plus one helper. Should Kirby be allowed to do this?

Yes.

Sets has also said that hyper sonic isn't canon so should sonic be allowed to transform into hyper sonic?

In my opinion yes, but it doesn't really change anything. Super Sonic can already OHKO pretty much anyone on the roster, so Hyper Sonic is unnecessary.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

By the way, Kirby's "veritable black hole" it's figurative. "Veritable" means "Used as an intensifier, often to qualify a metaphor".

Using Google's definition, eh?

Veritable: being truly or very much so

A) Is that not what Baton Kirby is meant to do?
B) And Sonic is too big for Baton to control.

A) He's meant to blow enemies up.
B) If you have control over someone's midsection, you can pretty much control where their body goes.

Kirby's attack sends Marx sideways, and then he flies upwards.

Then where did the blast come from, and why would Marx fly himself into a planet?

"X could have happened" is not solid proof.

And what if X is very likely?

Do these destroy planets?

We don't see.

Samus has no problem tracking moving targets, let alone ducking ones.

What does that have to do with anything?

And how powerful are these?

I'm not sure, but that isn't relevant to anything.

None of which have the properties of the tornado from the anime.

Thus meaning it's a different move.

The one at the timestamp you linked to.

Other enemies are launched further in the video.

It was. It got launched sideways a bit, just like regular Marx.

How do you know he isn't launched up? Or at least, and upward launching force isn't applied to him?

Reading a bit more into this, I found that one million joules of energy (enough to light a one-watt lightbulb for about 11.5 days) translates to one billionth of a kilogram. We don't know for sure how much energy Marx Soul gains from this, but I somewhat doubt that a conversion with that ratio would change the launch from escape velocity to a couple of inches to the side.

I wasn't talking about the launch to the side.

Because he's human.

I'm human, but I don't lie, and I'm not usually misled.

Thus making it ineffective.

The effect of a sword (striking) still takes place.

When does Mewtwo destroy a planet in the movie?

It's stated, and it's also the plot.

The most powerful attacks it's capable of delivering, not that appears in the boss(es).

I fail to see why they wouldn't use their most powerful attack on someone who's beating them up.

It's both. It's the effect of moving one's arm, but it's the cause of an object being damaged.

Striking isn't the effect of moving one's arm, it's the effect of the sword.

A) The rules of Pokemon do.
B) The Pokemon let the slower character move first because of the rules that their trainer agreed to.

A) Again, what rule?
B) The trainer doesn't agree to Magic Room.

How so? If Disable can't affect a non-invincible Pokemon inside of a force field, then I doubt that it could affect an invincible hedgehog. Even if force fields are for whatever reason the only thing that can block these moves, Sonic has those in the form of the Shields.

That's still breaking the rules. We agreed not to compare Super Sonic to Protect. Unless Sonic's shields have the effect of block Disable, it doesn't.

A) Not Mega Stones.
B) Then Sonic is free to teleport out.

A) Rings ≠ Mega Stones.
B) Yet, without his Rings, his health is gone.

Prove that you can change where an attack launches something without changing the attack or its properties.

People use pretty much the same exact swing in baseball, yet the ball never goes to the same place each time.

No, we see a sword and a cape.

The only sword and cape that Meta Knight has are Galaxia and the Dimensional Cape.

He stops only when he lands on the platform.

He stops in the air.

It is. The more momentum Kirby has (supplied by greater knockback), the harder it will be for him to stop.

Puffing up multiple times then.

Point?

If Kirby had a brain, the nerves would go into his mouth, thus making them ineffective. Bodies don't have ineffective brains.

Which means nothing unless we know how powerful the actual attacks are.

They are threats to planets with their attacks. They use their attacks on Kirby.

He deals double the damage to Chaos... 6 I think it was? Seeing as how this boss is made of water, brute force wouldn't be the best way to get rid of it.

Okay.

Right. It seems more pinkish in his farther from the center.

The purple dust is away from the pink.

A) Due to its relative slowness and inability to cover all angles, it won't work here.
B) No, taking out time freezing, it still takes a second.

A) It doesn't have slowness.
B) Really?

A) Fair enough. This could work out Kirby loses Jet and the Warp Star, though.
B) Right into Bowser's spiky shell.

A) Kirby can become Jet Kirby again.
B) Why would he do that?

From what I can tell, obtaining the Sleep ability puts Kirby to sleep automatically.

In Kirby Air Ride, touching other players puts them to sleep.

A) It takes a few seconds to reach its target.
B) But he can't keep Bowser's hand from blocking the beam.
C) He seems to be charging up for it beforehand, with the spinning becoming more and more rapid.

A) You must've been watching the video wrong.
B) After Kirby blows it up, he can.
C) That looks like enjoyment rather than charging to me.

Kirby's relative size to them.

So is everything in Kirby relative to Kirby's size?

Not quick enough to prevent Bowser from attacking.

Prove it.

That energy attacks don't necessarily negate one another.

How did you draw that conclusion from comparing a burning log to a flamethrower?

Not really. In a car crash, your body is moving (due to inertia), but the shock, pain, etc prevents you from acting, at least for a moment. The same applies to Kirby crashing the Warp Star.

Shock and pain don't prevent you from acting.

Prove that it does have a charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Both involve Kirby flying through the air and making sharp turns (at least, some attacks in game do).

Kirby didn't make sharp turns in the attack.

Okay, then.

That's a different use. Making something you can already see clearer.

Kirby is in stone form. If Kirby tries to trip Mario (presumably by getting in the way of his feet), he's just making himself an easy target for a fireball.

The fireball shoots in an arc, so it would go around Kirby if he was close enough to trip Mario.

That's irrelevant to the Gold Flower.

Then why'd you bring it up?

Because Kirby is similar in mass to them (being very generous to Kirby here).

Prove that mass is what defines a Mario enemy.

A) Because Stone falls down.
B) You said that Kirby could fly above Mario and use Stone to attack him. I'm pointing out that Kirby is rather vulnerable while flying (using Stone, at least).

A) Animal Statues Kirby can jump.
B) I said he could jump into Mario's head, not fly.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

My argument is that the Wing Cap transforms him. My proof is that all of Mario's power-ups transform him.

A) Did you not describe Kirby trapping Mario in a wall or something?
B) It's a drill. Drills can go through things like concrete.

A) Throwing him into a wall.
B) But do Mario drills?

A) He has a mean soccer kick.
B) Mario can take a bit of fire breath.

A) Which isn't applicable if Mario is holding onto his foot.
B) He dies in two hits.

Throwing something requires the arm muscles, as well as body muscles. Holding onto something requires a good grip, and getting your arms around whatever you're holding onto. Given Kirby's smooth surface and short arms, this wouldn't exactly be his strong point, let alone against someone as large as Mario.

Grabbing involves the arm muscles too.

He doesn't. He's holding the sword.

With one hand.

How does that prove anything?

"Veritable" means that it is real and true, meaning that Hypernova Kirby has the force of a real and true black hole.

They do, by adding abilities.

Add ≠ change.

Correct. Magic Room is a single thing. It allows Mega Stones, but not Reveal Glasses. Mega Stones are the majority here (in terms of transformation items), so we use them.

A Mega Stone is a single item.

Same thing applies.

In terms of force, going somewhere wheel > scissors that can cut through cardboard > stationary spinning wheel.

Since when?

Since I brought it up in the Mewtwo vs Mario section.

A) In that case, neither are crusher blocks and the like.
B) Both are attacks.

A) Thwomps are crusher blocks. Crushing walls are, well, crushing walls.
B) The Thwomp is what dies, not the Thwomp's attack. Even so, Mewtwo's beam > Thwomp's crushing.

Then the same would apply for Lumas and black holes.

Meaning, the Lumas don't turn into them.

They become present when the transformation occurs.

The transformation generates them.

Mostly examples from gameplay, with the occasional name meaning to back it up.

That's what I'm using too.

(circular reasoning Wikipedia link)

How?

I see it spinning in the same direction. Either way, Sonic can take some spinning. He might not have been shown to suddenly go from spinning in one direction to spinning in another, but he can start spinning instantly at much higher speeds.

And what if Kirby spins him in multiple directions while tossing him around?

Unless he shrinks himself.

Making him much easier to inhale.

A) Not without the unnecessary "Chaos Control" shout, no.
B) Rings and the like can be collected during this, if I'm not mistaken. I don't see how being intangible would help you pick up an intangible object.

A) Ah.
B) Sonic doesn't actually grab the Rings. The intangibility might counter itself.

A) The transformation is unnecessary if Sonic is just boosting.
B) It crosses the distance.

A) If he doesn't transform, Kirby can harm him.
B) Prove it.

And?

He isn't explaining anything specific, so he brings up something out of nothing specific. This doesn't apply to the Courage Reactor.

Which is connected to the AI.

Point?

I'm not sure he'd know about them at this point. I mean, I doubt he would have studied it, and he likely couldn't look it up online or anything; I hear the cell service is pretty bad in orbit around unexplored alien planets.

Prove it.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-31-the-books-o-truth/
Note how the common military bullet only makes it through 7 inches of paper. Pikmin are thicker.

As do the missiles.

I doubt that it would be programmed to do so.

Is he under the impression that there are no more monsters to face at this point in time?

I don't know. But, it's pretty obvious that Olimar doesn't expect anything major.

Because it's not ridiculous, and it's true.

Olimar doesn't know either of those things.

Source?

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/depression/depression-in-men.htm

And it's Olimar's for doing it.

No.

From what I can gather, the outlandish conclusions seem to often be inaccurate. Guess what else is outlandish? A regular pocket knife slicing through dimensions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

You said that if Star Bits were liquid, they wouldn't stay in the net. I showed that this doesn't prevent the Star Bits from being water that forms into clumps. In fact, water undergoes a similar clumping process in space in real life.

See below.

Prove it.

The reason the water doesn't go through the net is because the holes are too small. The holes in between molecules of other Star Bits are even smaller, so the Star Bits wouldn't go through.

They could be. Water gives the body energy, and Star Bits could simply give that energy in its rawest form.

Ah.

Your reasoning isn't grounded in examples from canon.

Mario's power-ups don't stack in canon. There's an example. Bowser can't breath fire streams and homing fireballs from his mouth at the same time. There's another one. The Magical Paintbrush can't use multiple types of graffiti at the same time. 3-0.

Quite the contrary; they can pull Mario in from extremely far away.

A) What's the explanation for any time that Mario doesn't get sucked in when he's near a black hole?
B) If they have so much range, how does Rosalina keep from getting sucked in?

A galaxy costs about 300 Star Bits, and Rosalina has 9,999 of them. That's about 33 galaxies, not to mention that galaxies have Star Bits in them, making them a renewable resource.

300 Star Bits would take a while to manage in a quick amount of time, and it would take Rosalina some time to find the Star Bits.

They could still be placed strategically throughout the battlefield.

How would anyone be able to place them?

And the thing being destroyed.

When does it move?

Yes.

Interesting.

It is. If Sonic is capable of doing something, I'd imagine that he'd take advantage of it.

You haven't proved he's capable of doing it.

If Sonic's movement is faster, the creation of the tornado (which relies on movement) is faster. Sonic activates it by going in a circle, and the faster he is, the sooner he goes in a circle.

How do you know Sonic uses his speed when creating the tornado?

He does so in, say, Sonic Colors for the DS.

Do you have a video?

It also lists "feral teeth" as an example.

Feral teeth indicates that the animal with the teeth is wild.

Having a wild exterior is a result of resisting the influences, not a cause.

How?

Because it's running rampant with evil monsters.

Sonic doesn't see the monsters.

Prove that Sonic doesn't decide to howl, even though he does so at only specific points.

I was saying that he does decide to howl.

Sonic breathes air, and so if the air is frozen, he can't breathe (or move for that matter).

Then how does he breathe when moving at high speeds and in space?

He never actually does that.

If Sonic had complete control over Chaos Control, he wouldn't need Shadow/Silver to manipulate time.

Only after charging up.

Then he charges up and flies away.

Prove it.

The article you linked proved it.

The guard would most likely break instantly, and the Power Bomb lasts for about a second.
B) The Power Bomb isn't made of light.
C) You have yet to prove that.

A) That doesn't stop it from getting weakened.
B) Same thing applies.
C) See B.

So... how fast is it in game?

If we're going to limit the bicycle to this speed, we have to limit Mario to less than 20 MPH. That's what I was getting at here.

Last I checked, "continental" isn't a measurement of power.

Last I checked, it was. Depending on the context, of course. Continental characters use continental attacks. That's what makes them continental.

Prove it.

Every direct non-dragon attack in Fire Emblem is sealed.

Prove it.

Ike can survive potent tomes, large amounts of arrows and sword slashes, and falling boulders.

So, what does that mean outside of Fire Emblem?

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 might know better about that.

The Infinity Stones in Guardians of the Galaxy are a good example. Just beware of spoilers!

Do those have infinite power?

Does he utilize its "infinite power", and if so, when is this states?

It isn't stated yes or no, but why wouldn't he?

Then we mustn't extrapolate.

Again, force ≠ resistance to effects.

To avoid collateral damage.

Why would they care?

Yes. I don't see how getting spit out of Dedede's mouth makes his one-and-done feats non-outliers.

Being launched through space isn't an outlier in Kirby, because it's happened multiple times.

He simply loses the protection provided by the Rings.

What does that mean for attacks that hit him?

Executor has plenty of mouths.

Qwilfish, then. He can use Spit Up while holding an item, proving that he doesn't hold items in his mouth.

Prove that the attacks in question are this powerful.

They come from the Monado.

Also, I can say the same thing about the "planet-destroying deities" you said.

Yes.

I was refraining from using them because I wasn't sure, but that changes things if the answer's yes. Hehehe.

In my opinion yes, but it doesn't really change anything. Super Sonic can already OHKO pretty much anyone on the roster, so Hyper Sonic is unnecessary.

 

[monzer]

In my opinion yes, but it doesn't really change anything. Super Sonic can already OHKO pretty much anyone on the roster, so Hyper Sonic is unnecessary.

Yeah the only characters i see surviving super sonic are the top tier characters.

So I feel that kirby's clones and meta knight with his helper would definitely be able to overwhelm sonic. Mewtwo's trick room would also allow him to bear sonic very easily. I can't see any other characters beating sonic.

I'm not sure if this was brought up yet but many characters here, mostly the ones in RPGs, have a chance of landing a critical hit. These characters could possibly beat character in a higher tier because of this. Since this is luck based, should this be taken into account.

 

[Crystanium]

@ Kirby Dragons
Nope. I use Oxford English Dictionary. I consider all other dictionaries **** tier. So, I don't know how your definition did anything to affect the one I provided, especially when it's often figurative.

Also, Mario's speed is less than 20 mi/h. I already calc'd his speed to be 16.06 mi/h. Still pretty fast for a human.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Kirby Dragons
Nope. I use Oxford English Dictionary. I consider all other dictionaries **** tier. So, I don't know how your definition did anything to affect the one I provided, especially when it's often figurative.

I've heard that that definition is only used in the United Kingdom.

Also, Mario's speed is less than 20 mi/h. I already calc'd his speed to be 16.06 mi/h. Still pretty fast for a human.

Interesting.

 

[Munomario777]

Using Google's definition, eh?

Veritable: being truly or very much so

When is this term actually used?

A) He's meant to blow enemies up.
B) If you have control over someone's midsection, you can pretty much control where their body goes.

A) After spinning them around. In fact, its original Japanese name is "Baton Twirling Kirby".
B) Prove that Baton Kirby is capable of controlling only one's midsection.

Then where did the blast come from, and why would Marx fly himself into a planet?

The blast came from Marx. He does this for the same reason that a car would explode; it was triggered.

And what if X is very likely?

Prove its likelihood. I've already disproven it.

We don't see.

Then we cannot assume.

What does that have to do with anything?

If Samus can track quickly moving targets with ease, I doubt a crouching one will give her any trouble.

I'm not sure, but that isn't relevant to anything.

How large are they?

Thus meaning it's a different move.

Or an altered version of an existing one.

Other enemies are launched further in the video.

Do you have timestamps for these?

How do you know he isn't launched up? Or at least, and upward launching force isn't applied to him?

It is; just not by Kirby.

I wasn't talking about the launch to the side.

Allow me to restate my argument. At the end of Marx Soul's boss fight, Kirby launches him a small distance to the side, and then he teleports away. The former is done by Kirby, and the latter is done by Marx. In the regular Marx fight, Kirby launches him a small distance to the side, and then he flies away. Using the same pattern, the former is done by Kirby, and the latter is done by Marx.

I'm human, but I don't lie, and I'm not usually misled.

Haha, that's funny.

The effect of a sword (striking) still takes place.

Striking isn't the result of a sword. A sword is an object. A sword could exist, but it's not always striking something. Anyway, the end result (or the ultimate effect of an action), in this case the slicing, is negated by the blocking of the attack.

It's stated, and it's also the plot.

Again, I ask. When?

I fail to see why they wouldn't use their most powerful attack on someone who's beating them up.

Perhaps to conserve the energy for later?

Striking isn't the effect of moving one's arm, it's the effect of the sword.

See above.

A) Again, what rule?
B) The trainer doesn't agree to Magic Room.

A) The rule in Pokemon. We don't ever see the actual rule listings, so we?
B) Then why does the slower Pokemon get to move first?

That's still breaking the rules. We agreed not to compare Super Sonic to Protect. Unless Sonic's shields have the effect of block Disable, it doesn't.

When did we sgree not to use logic? Because that's what I'm doing.

A) Rings ≠ Mega Stones.
B) Yet, without his Rings, his health is gone.

A) Ah, you're referring to Rings. Gotcha.
B) Wrong. He loses protection granted by the Rings. More on that in a bit.

People use pretty much the same exact swing in baseball, yet the ball never goes to the same place each time.

It isn't always the "same exact swing". Differences in the velocity, angle, direction, etc of the bat change the ball's trajectory.

The only sword and cape that Meta Knight has are Galaxia and the Dimensional Cape.

This isn't Meta Knight.

He stops in the air.

Ater hitting the ground,

Puffing up multiple times then.

Provide clear evidence first. Then we'll talk.

If Kirby had a brain, the nerves would go into his mouth, thus making them ineffective. Bodies don't have ineffective brains.

Unless the portal only affects inhaled items/enemies.

They are threats to planets with their attacks. They use their attacks on Kirby.

Prove that these are the same attacks.

The purple dust is away from the pink.

Even so, the purple energy didn't deal that much damage to Dedede, did it?

A) It doesn't have slowness.
B) Really?

A) It lacks sufficient speed.
B) Yes. You just posted a video of Kirby taking a moment to acquire an ability.

A) Kirby can become Jet Kirby again.
B) Why would he do that?

A) Did we not agree that once Kirby loses a Copy Ability, he can't regain it?B) Because the shell is above him.

In Kirby Air Ride, touching other players puts them to sleep.

And in every other game, acquiring the ability puts Kirby to sleep.

A) You must've been watching the video wrong.
B) After Kirby blows it up, he can.
C) That looks like enjoyment rather than charging to me.

A) My bad. Still, it's not particularly fast.
B) Which takes time.
C) Can he not enjoy the charging?

So is everything in Kirby relative to Kirby's size?

Yes, that's how scale works.

Prove it.

I don't recall the Ultra Sword being very quick.

How did you draw that conclusion from comparing a burning log to a flamethrower?

Fire doesn't cancel itself out, and fire is a form of energy.

Shock and pain don't prevent you from acting.

Then why can't Kirby move here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

The burden of proof is on you. You're arguing the positive.

Kirby didn't make sharp turns in the attack.

Does he not do so during, say, Rocket Dive?

That's a different use. Making something you can already see clearer.

And the island isn't in space.

The fireball shoots in an arc, so it would go around Kirby if he was close enough to trip Mario.

Mario could just shoot it downwards.

Then why'd you bring it up?

To add to the scale I was talking about.

Prove that mass is what defines a Mario enemy.

It's not. However, I'd imagine less mass would be easier to turn into a gold coin.

A) Animal Statues Kirby can jump.
B) I said he could jump into Mario's head, not fly.

Does this actually deal damage? Even if it does, it's far too slow.

My argument is that the Wing Cap transforms him. My proof is that all of Mario's power-ups transform him.

When is it stated that all power-ups transform Mario?

A) Throwing him into a wall.
B) But do Mario drills?

A) What exactly would this accomplish?
B) I can't recall offhand.

A) Which isn't applicable if Mario is holding onto his foot.
B) He dies in two hits.

A) Mario has two feet.
B) I see each power-up "layer" acting as a human's durability. So if Mario suffers a lethal amount of, say, burning, he shrinks instead of dying.

Grabbing involves the arm muscles too.

Yes, but holding onto something is mostly a matter of friction and coverage. Of course, it also involves the arm muscles, but without either sufficient friction or coverage, you won't get very far.

With one hand.

Holding Mario in place would require two hands. Of course, this is only if Kirby is actually capable of holding onto Mario in the first place.

"Veritable" means that it is real and true, meaning that Hypernova Kirby has the force of a real and true black hole.

See above.

Add ≠ change.

Adding an ability changes Mario's available abilities.

A Mega Stone is a single item.

Really?

In terms of force, going somewhere wheel > scissors that can cut through cardboard > stationary spinning wheel.

And yet, the former wheel cannot cut through cardboard.

A) Thwomps are crusher blocks. Crushing walls are, well, crushing walls.
B) The Thwomp is what dies, not the Thwomp's attack.

A) The difference being?
B) And the laser would perish here.

Even so, Mewtwo's beam > Thwomp's crushing.

Fair enough.

Meaning, the Lumas don't turn into them.

They do, but either way, black holes appear as a result of the Lumas transforming.

The transformation generates them.

Would that not happen here as well?

That's what I'm using too.

I don't see any gameplay suggesting that PP isn't energy. Care to direct me to that?

How?

You used your argument as evidence.

And what if Kirby spins him in multiple directions while tossing him around?

When does Kirby do this on someone his size?

Making him much easier to inhale.

Except he's going nowhere near the vortex.

A) Ah.
B) Sonic doesn't actually grab the Rings. The intangibility might counter itself.

He moves them. How would intangibility "counter itself" exactly?

A) If he doesn't transform, Kirby can harm him.
B) Prove it.

A) Except he has no time to do so.
B) The speed speaks for itself.

He isn't explaining anything specific, so he brings up something out of nothing specific. This doesn't apply to the Courage Reactor.

And what exactly does this prove?

Point?

The AI is informing Olimar of the "observation".

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-31-the-books-o-truth/
Note how the common military bullet only makes it through 7 inches of paper. Pikmin are thicker.

Since when are Pikmin seven inches thick?

I doubt that it would be programmed to do so.

As do I.

I don't know. But, it's pretty obvious that Olimar doesn't expect anything major.

Based on what evidence?

Olimar doesn't know either of those things.

He has Louie running around, telling people to call him the "king of bugs".

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/depression/depression-in-men.htm

Where does the article state that depression leads to injury?

No.

"No" is not a convincing argument.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

How so? I'm saying that since the outlandish statements are often false, and the knife's space-time slicing is outlandish, that the knife's statement is likely false.

The reason the water doesn't go through the net is because the holes are too small. The holes in between molecules of other Star Bits are even smaller, so the Star Bits wouldn't go through.

Streams of water can "pass through" other water. For proof, try holding some sort of water jet (i.e. a water gun) underwater and aim it up.

Mario's power-ups don't stack in canon. There's an example. Bowser can't breath fire streams and homing fireballs from his mouth at the same time. There's another one. The Magical Paintbrush can't use multiple types of graffiti at the same time. 3-0.

How do these say anything about Rosalina's wand?

A) What's the explanation for any time that Mario doesn't get sucked in when he's near a black hole?
B) If they have so much range, how does Rosalina keep from getting sucked in?

A) I'd imagine it;s a result of varying strengths from black hole to black hole. In other words, some are stronger than others.
B) By keeping her distance.

300 Star Bits would take a while to manage in a quick amount of time, and it would take Rosalina some time to find the Star Bits.

Feeding a Luma 300 Star Bits takes a couple of seconds. She already has the Star Bits.

How would anyone be able to place them?

The Lumas could do so by setting their trajectory accordingly.

When does it move?

When it's destroyed.

Interesting.

It also leads me to believe that Sonic could take Marth's sword while time is frozen. If he actually needed to, that is.

You haven't proved he's capable of doing it.

Sonic can travel in tight circles at light speed. I have no doubt that he could do so at lower speeds.

How do you know Sonic uses his speed when creating the tornado?

When Sonic goes fast, the tornado forms.

Do you have a video?

Not offhand.

Feral teeth indicates that the animal with the teeth is wild.

Prove this assertion, then.

How?

Dark Gaia's influence is spread throughout the entire planet, affecting all of its citizens (at night, of course). Most people are only affected on the inside, or their personalities. Their bodies are the same. With Sonic, it's the opposite. It seems that the influence "deflected" from Sonic's personality, and instead went to his body.

Sonic doesn't see the monsters.

He sees the giant one that's tearing apart the planet.

I was saying that he does decide to howl.

So if Sonic's only personality difference is that he decides to howl, what makes you think that the Darksphere will completely reverse his intentions?

Then how does he breathe when moving at high speeds and in space?

He breathes at high speeds by inhaling and exhaling, and he breathes in space because of gameplay inconsistencies. Sonic's fear of drowning is common throughout the games, and it even affects his personality and behavior.

If Sonic had complete control over Chaos Control, he wouldn't need Shadow/Silver to manipulate time.

Shadow, the most proficient user of Chaos Control there is, still can't time travel on his own.

Then he charges up and flies away.

Not before the Power Bomb obliterates him.

The article you linked proved it.

That article relates to mirrors and light, not reflective guards and Power Bombs.

A) That doesn't stop it from getting weakened.
B) Same thing applies.
C) See B.

A) What makes it get weakened, then?
B) And the article does not.

If we're going to limit the bicycle to this speed, we have to limit Mario to less than 20 MPH. That's what I was getting at here.

We're limiting them to what's shown in gameplay, unless otherwise stated. Why should we extrapolate for Ness's bicycle?

Last I checked, it was. Depending on the context, of course. Continental characters use continental attacks. That's what makes them continental.

Really?

Every direct non-dragon attack in Fire Emblem is sealed.

And Sonic is not in Fire Emblem.

Ike can survive potent tomes, large amounts of arrows and sword slashes, and falling boulders.

Can he survive things that tear through steel like it's nothing?

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 might know better about that.

Okay, then.

Do those have infinite power?

I believe so. They can destroy an entire planet's surface with little effort.

It isn't stated yes or no, but why wouldn't he?

Because it's too much for him to control.

Again, force ≠ resistance to effects.

And?

Why would they care?

If they unleashed their full power on Kirby, they could, say, create an explosion so powerful that they end up killing themselves.

Being launched through space isn't an outlier in Kirby, because it's happened multiple times.

So, what does this prove exactly?

What does that mean for attacks that hit him?

He dies, unless he has other protection. This includes Shields, Invincibility, Color Powers, etc.

Qwilfish, then. He can use Spit Up while holding an item, proving that he doesn't hold items in his mouth.

It has a tail.

They come from the Monado.

And? So does, say, Back Slash, which I'm pretty sure doesn't have "universal power".

Also, I can say the same thing about the "planet-destroying deities" you said.

Not exactly. Perfect Chaos, for instance, uses water and floods to destroy a city. Sonic survives these. Solaris erases time and space, leaving behind a nonsensical void. Who remains intact? Sonic. (Except he's dead, but that's separate from this.) The Time Eater sucks the life and color out of worlds, including Sonic's friends. Yet, Sonic is still alive and colorful as ever. Both of them are, in fact.

Ah yes, him. Arrow of Light should open him up to a lightning-speed Caliburn stab.

Yeah the only characters i see surviving super sonic are the top tier characters.

I honestly can't see anyone (besides Ganon) surviving, what was it, 300+ tons of force?

So I feel that kirby's clones and meta knight with his helper would definitely be able to overwhelm sonic.

How so? The Homing Attack/Light Speed Attack allow for rapid-fire attacks on multiple targets. Plus, Kirby would have no time to create these helpers.

Mewtwo's trick room would also allow him to bear sonic very easily.

How so? Even if Mewtwo could attack first when Trick Room is enabled (which is under debate atm), he won't have time to use the move before Sonic KOs him with a lightning-speed attack.

I'm not sure if this was brought up yet but many characters here, mostly the ones in RPGs, have a chance of landing a critical hit. These characters could possibly beat character in a higher tier because of this. Since this is luck based, should this be taken into account.

Yes, but we should take the chance into account when deciding a winner. Let's say character A will beat character B if a critical hit occurs, and if not, B wins. If the critical hit has a 10% chance of occurring, then we declare B the winner since they have a higher chance of winning.

Also, Mario's speed is less than 20 mi/h. I already calc'd his speed to be 16.06 mi/h. Still pretty fast for a human.

What about Mega Mario?

 

[Crystanium]

I've heard that that definition is only used in the United Kingdom.

You'll need to support that. The American English version of the Cambridge Dictionary defines veritable as "used to emphasize how great or unusual something is by comparing it to something else", and the example is, "If current projection shold, Montgomery County will experience a veritable explosion in its school-age population (= it will have many more students)." That explosion isn't a real explosion, but speaks metaphorically.

@ Munomario777 , Mario's height is 64 pixels. This is equal to 5'1", or 154.94 cm. As giant Mario, his stride is 133 pixels. 133 / 64 is 208% Mario's height, or 321.9846875 cm. Mario's stride frequency is 6 strides per 1.737 seconds, or 3.4542314335060449 strides per second. Multiplying this by Mario's stride gives us 11.12 m/s, or 24.87 mi/h.

 

[Manta]

Unless I'm wrong, shouldn't Ike be able to kill Ganon, Ragnell (Ike's sword) was made by a Godess and then a Godess blessed it after that allowing Ike to kill the Godess that originally made the sword. I haven't fully played a Zelda game so I'm not sure what qualifies as being able to kill Ganon.

 

[monzer]

Unless I'm wrong, shouldn't Ike be able to kill Ganon, Ragnell (Ike's sword) was made by a Godess and then a Godess blessed it after that allowing Ike to kill the Godess that originally made the sword. I haven't fully played a Zelda game so I'm not sure what qualifies as being able to kill Ganon.

It depends on how you interpret it. If you belive that only the power of light can beat Ganon. Then any good character could damage him. If you think that the master sword is just the only thing strong enough to kill Ganon, then any character who is close to his power could beat him.

 

[Munomario777]

I see it as holy weaponry/attacks being the only things that can kill him, meaning things that are made by gods and such. So yes, I'd say that Ragnell would work.

 

[monzer]

@ Munomario777
Trick room would guarantee that mewtwo would attack first. Kirby has survived planets exploding with minimal damage, that explosion had much more power than super sonic. Kirby would start with the helpers at the beginning of the match since all characters are starting in their best form for the match-up.

Kirby can travel across the solar system in a matter of seconds so that shows that Kirby on a warp star is much much faster than the speed on light. Kirby also can use his warp star for as long as he wants in space. Kirby could simply break the planet and fly away on a warp star and super sonic would eventually wear off and then sonic would be defenseless. Of course this is only if Kirby can land a blow to break the planet, so ill say it could go either way.

Oh yeah and here is the canon tier list 3.0, whitch has more accurate placements and has glitch and item characters.

S-tier
Kirby
Meta knight
Shulk
Sonic
Mewtwo
King Dedede

A+ tier
Samus
Crazy Hand
Master Hand

A-tier
Greninja
Charizard
Lucario
Ganondorf
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Rosalina and lumas
Ness
Lukas

B-tier
Dark Pit
Pit
Toon Link
The koopalings
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Pokemon trainer
Palutina
Link
Squirtle
Jiggilypuff
Pichu

C-tier
Yoshi
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Mario
Wario
Robin
Ike
Marth
Roy
Lucina
Shiek
Mega Man
Zelda
Peach

D-tier
Captain Falcon
Snake
Fox
Falco
Pac-man
Duck Hunt
Hothead
B. Bomb
Mii Gunner
Ice climbers
Villager
Mii Sword fighter

E-tier
Little Mac
Mii Brawler
Mr. Game and Watch
Wii Fit Trainer
Mr. Saturn

F-tier
Olimar
R.O.B

G-tier
Sandbag

 

[Munomario777]

@ Munomario777
Trick room would guarantee that mewtwo would attack first.

Even if it would actually work (which is under debate atm), Mewtwo wouldn't even have time to activate it.

Kirby has survived planets exploding with minimal damage, that explosion had much more power than super sonic.

Said explosion left the planet's surface unscathed.

Kirby would start with the helpers at the beginning of the match since all characters are starting in their best form for the match-up.

We're giving them their best resources to work with, but they start in their normal state. Either way, these would give Sonic no trouble.

Kirby can travel across the solar system in a matter of seconds so that shows that Kirby on a warp star is much much faster than the speed on light.

The Milky Way Wishes map is nowhere near the size of the actual solar system.

Kirby also can use his warp star for as long as he wants in space. Kirby could simply break the planet and fly away on a warp star and super sonic would eventually wear off and then sonic would be defenseless.

Super Sonic can last for about two hours and forty-five minutes. When has Kirby demonstrated the ability to "break the planet"? Even so, this arena is ultimately indestructible, and there's a ceiling, so this isn't an option.

 

[Crystanium]

Unless I'm wrong, shouldn't Ike be able to kill Ganon, Ragnell (Ike's sword) was made by a Godess and then a Godess blessed it after that allowing Ike to kill the Godess that originally made the sword. I haven't fully played a Zelda game so I'm not sure what qualifies as being able to kill Ganon.

It requires sacredness and force. Force is defined as "The sacred power of the gods gave to the world. It's the breath of life itself."(Hyrule Historia, pg. 75) So I guess you could say Ganondorf can only be defeated by weapons combined with sacredness and life.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Really? I'd say swarming is better. It's more effective in game, and there's power in numbers.

Being classified as a "boss" or "final boss" is irrelevant here. What other properties of these enemies might lead to this immunity, in particular the final bosses?

And Mega Mario's flesh and blood is faster. (Unless you have proof of Ike's speed.)

How so?

It's rather unnecessary here, since he can already move at the speed of lightning in an instant.

Sure thing.

By the power of Sonic '06!

I'm pretty sure pipes do. In fact, Rock Mario is at least that size and travels faster, and he can't even dent a pipe.

How does this prove their force?

What makes you say that?

Well, I think we've answered the thread then!

Depending on the enemy (aka not Waterwraiths) using both tactics at the same time might be the optimal strategy.

Descriptions of final bosses:
FE7: Being a Fire Dragon.
FE8: Being a Demon King.
FE9: Wearing a goddess blessed armor while riding a dragon.
FE10: Being a Goddess or one with a strong blessing by such (portrayed as the Mantle skill).
FE13: Being a Kaiju sized Dragon fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gimle.jpg with the Dragonskin Skill.

Mechon armor durability feats:
Regular Mechon armor against sword strikes https://youtu.be/tmMj_A_GLcU?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=665 at 11:05-11:16.
Face armor against a man wielded HE gun https://youtu.be/tmMj_A_GLcU?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=338 at 5:38-5:50.
Face armor against multiple attacks (including ramming) from a Mobile Artillery https://youtu.be/tmMj_A_GLcU?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=1171 at 19:31-20:50.
Regular Mechon and Face armor versus Anti-Air Batteries https://youtu.be/GfGG-oLBpCc?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=974 at 16:14-16:46.
Jade Face claims that Mechon are made of Steel but he might have been talking metaphorically, especially when you consider how advanced the Homs are and the fact that they can’t penetrate their armor without weapons made from Mechon armor. If it is Steel then they must have given it some special treatment like how the Black Knight’s blessed armor rendered him invincible to all but a few types of attacks and weapons.
@Dryn, How much trouble would this (Metal) Face give Samus? Even Team Star Fox could run into trouble with him.

Have you forgotten that Mega Man is a robot and how fast is Mega Man (not including Time Stopper like abilities)?

We aren’t fighting in the Sonic universe so Sonic will wind up nuking himself.

When does he move at lightning speed? Link please.

Never mind, what I was thinking about wasn’t as fast as my memory suggested.

Isn’t that the one everyone wants to forget (AKA the Black Sheep)?

Does Rock Mario have access to steep slopes? Also pipes can’t bend or sway to absorb the force like a high rise.

It means they are far beyond everyone else in the setting.

Banning no limit fallacies means that you can’t respond with Sonic dodges the attack. Why would Sonic need to use the Chaos Emeralds if he is never in danger of being hit?

You’re not getting off that easily Sonic!

The answer should have been obvious from the get-go. I'm sure this could have been addressed on the first page, but not many are willing to admit loss.

I have figured out the estimate of Link's powder keg. This is from my blog.

In my previous post, I presented evidence defending what type of explosive is used in the Zelda universe and came up with how much energy a single bomb produces. This time, I'm interested in the powder keg. Using the same information as before, I can come up with an estimate. However, I had to do a bit of modifying when it came to figuring out the height of Goron Link and the differences in the size of Goron Link and the powder keg. What I mean is that when Link holds a bomb, the camera kind of pans out, so the amount of pixels will alter.

Goron Link has a height of 217 pixels, where as Link has a height of 116 pixels. Dividing 217 over 116 gives me a 187% difference. I assume Link is 147.32 cm., so that means Goron Link is 275.59 cm. tall. With this in mind, I can transition this information onto the powder keg. When Goron Link is holding the powder keg, he's 125 pixels tall, so we can say that 125 pixels is equal to 275.59 cm. While I should be looking for the height of the powder keg, the way I must calculate would actually require me to rotate the powder keg so that the length becomes the height.

One side of the powder keg is 32 pixels, but I'm going to only use 31 pixels because I'm going to assume the casing is a pixel thick and all I really care about is the gunpowder inside of it. This means 31 pixels is equal to 68.35 cm. The length of the powder keg is 82 pixels, but again, I only care about the inside of the powder keg and am assuming the casing is 1 pixel thick, so 81 pixels is 178.58 cm. Now that we have the numbers, using the formula to find the volume of a hexagonal prism gives us 2,167,307.92 cm^3. Using 1.7 g/cm^3 gives us 3,684,423.47 g., and since there's 3,000 J/g in gunpowder, energy of a powder keg is 11,053,270,400.01 J, or 2.64 tons of TNT.

The Powder Keg’s 2.64 tons of TNT compared to the regular bomb’s what. Do we have calculations for regular bombs or the super bomb from ALTTP?

@Dryn, how could you give up on Samus? Are you really going to be turned into roadkill by a hedgehog?

Yes.

In my opinion yes, but it doesn't really change anything. Super Sonic can already OHKO pretty much anyone on the roster, so Hyper Sonic is unnecessary.

Super Sonic can’t even OHKO Robotnik’s machines.

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 might know better about that.

@ Kirby Dragons 10 avoid can be anything from useful to useless depending on how successful you were evading their attacks to begin with. If you were evading 10% of attacks before then you would evade 20% now. If you were evading 95% of attacks before then you would become untouchable afterwards. If the enemy has been hitting you with every attack that +10 to avoid may or may not bring the enemy’s hit rate below 100. It also won’t work on against attacks that have guaranteed accuracy. Don’t forget about the “Breaker” skills and their +50 to hit rate and avoid, as they will make a massive difference against any opponents that use those weapon types. Axebreaker will effect more than Pillager, as the Hammers used by Mario, Luigi, Link, Kirby, King Dedede, and Ice Climbers all fall under the Axes category of weapons.

High five.



@ Munomario777
In response to your quote block at the bottom of post 5862:
That’s good for him because the Black Knight, Deghinsea and Ashera would tear him a new one.

Can Sonic survive Vantage, Adept, Cancel/Guard, Aether, Beastfoe, Corrosion, Disarm, Miracle, Counter, Resolve, Wrath or Ragnell?

Back Slash doesn’t have obscene power, the Monado does.

Arrow of Light won’t work because it isn’t holy. Caliburn won’t work because it’s from a story book like the Paper Mario games.

Mewtwo taunts Sonic and gets Trick Room off that way.

Unless I'm wrong, shouldn't Ike be able to kill Ganon, Ragnell (Ike's sword) was made by a Godess and then a Godess blessed it after that allowing Ike to kill the Godess that originally made the sword. I haven't fully played a Zelda game so I'm not sure what qualifies as being able to kill Ganon.

yes that's what I'm going for.

@ Manta Looking forward to Xenoblade Chronicles X? I’m sure that setting will give us high end characters for this thread!

Oh yeah and here is the canon tier list 3.0, whitch has more accurate placements and has glitch and item characters.

S-tier
Kirby
Meta knight
Shulk
Sonic
Mewtwo
King Dedede

A+ tier
Samus
Crazy Hand
Master Hand

A-tier
Greninja
Charizard
Lucario
Ganondorf
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Rosalina and lumas
Ness
Lukas

B-tier
Dark Pit
Pit
Toon Link
The Koopalings
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Pokemon trainer
Palutena
Link
Squirtle
Jiggilypuff
Pichu

C-tier
Yoshi
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Mario
Wario
Robin
Ike
Marth
Roy
Lucina
Shiek
Mega Man
Zelda
Peach

D-tier
Captain Falcon
Snake
Fox
Falco
Pac-man
Duck Hunt
Hothead
B. Bomb
Mii Gunner
Ice climbers
Villager
Mii Sword fighter

E-tier
Little Mac
Mii Brawler
Mr. Game and Watch
Wii Fit Trainer
Mr. Saturn

F-tier
Olimar
R.O.B

G-tier
Sandbag

The Pits and Palutena (you misspelled her name) below generic Pokemon, really!?



Did anyone realize that Silver weapons can also kill Ganondorf thanks to Link’s silver arrows?

Now for my promised analysis on Ike.

Ike's Stats​

Ike (accounts for Yune’s blessing, Ragnell, Boots and Celerity):
HP: 65
STR: 37+5=42 (59 with Resolve)
MAG: 15+5=20
SKL: 40+5=45 (65 with Resolve)
SPD: 37+5=42 (59 with Resolve)
LUK: 30+5=35
DEF: 32+5+5=42
RES: 23+5=28
MOV: 7+2+2=11
HP restore at beginning of turn: 6+20=26 (40% of max HP)

Ike's Skills​

Always active:
Nihil: Negates the enemies’ combat related skills (incredibly useful against the Robins and Lucina, may find uses elsewhere).
Fortune: Negates critical hits.
Imbue: Restores HP equal to the use’s magic stat at the beginning of the turn.
Renewal: Restores 10% of max HP (rounded down)at the beginning of the turn.
Celerity: Boosts movement by two.
Pass: Allows user to pass through spaces occupied by the enemy.
Beastfoe: User inflicts effective damage on Beasts with any weapon (works on Cats, Tigers, Lions, and Wolves at a minimum).
Dragonfoe: User inflicts effective damage on Dragons with any weapon (works on Dragons, and Wyverns at a minimum).
Birdfoe: User inflicts effective damage on Birds with any weapon (works on Crows, Hawks, and Herons at a minimum).
Nullify: Negates enemy’s weapon effectiveness bonus (useful against Marth‘s Swordslayer).
Daunt: All enemies within 3 spaces have accuracy and critical hit rate dropped by 5.

Has a chance to activate:
Aether: Two attack combo comprising Sol (1st hit, restores health equal to damage done) and (2nd hit, ignores half the defense stat (FE9) or all of it (FE10)). Can’t be activated at range. SKL% (FE9) or SKL/2% (FE10)
Guard (FE9)/Cancel (FE10): Negates the enemy’s next attack if the attack hits. SKL% (FE9) or SPD% (FE10)
Adept: Allows user to perform a consecutive attack (similar to a brave weapon but stacks with it). SKL% (FE9) or SPD (FE10)
Counter: Enemy sustains half the damage he/she just inflicted on the user. SKL%
Disarm: Forcibly unequips the enemy’s weapon on a successful hit. SKL/2%
Corrosion: Reduces enemy’s weapon durability by user’s level (+20 if promoted)/4 (rounded up)(FE9) or by user’s level (+20 for 2nd tier or +40 for 3rd tier). Would be an excellent foil to the Robins and Lucinas’ Armsthrift skill. SKL% (FE9) or SKL/2% (FE10)
Miracle: Cuts HP in half (rounded up) when receiving a fatal strike. LUK%
Cancel (FE9)/Pavise (FE10): Negates all damage when activated. SKL%

Activates at low health:
Wrath: critical hit rate+50 when under 50% (FE9)/30% (FE10) HP.
Resolve: Increases Strength (FE9 only), Skill, and Speed by 50% when under 50% HP.

Other:
Vantage: Allows the user to attack first in a round of combat. Especially nasty when combined with Adept, Guard/Cancel, Disarm, and Corrosion. Always (FE9) or SPD% (FE10)

Activation Rates​

Ike (percentage in parenthesis is with resolve active):
Aether (FE10)=22% (32%)
Guard (FE9)=45% (65%)
Adept (FE9)=45% (65%)
Counter=45% (65%)
Disarm=22% (32%)
Corrosion (FE10)=22% (32%) chance to lower enemy weapon durability by 60 (enough to one shot all normal swords, axes, lances, bows, tomes, and staves).

Pavise=45% (65%)
Miracle=35%

Chance for a OHKO to get pass Guard, Disarm, Corrosion, Pavise and Miracle (1 swing)=11.96% (3.68%)
With a brave weapon or one Adept activation (2 swings)=4% (0.6%)
Brave weapon plus one Adept activation (3 swings)=1.34% (0.1%)
Brave weapon plus two Adept activation (4 swings)= 0.45% (0.02%)

Not all foes will be susceptible to Corrosion or Disarm.

@Dryn Do you want to double check my math?

 

[Munomario777]

Depending on the enemy (aka not Waterwraiths) using both tactics at the same time might be the optimal strategy.

Point?

Descriptions of final bosses:
FE7: Being a Fire Dragon.
FE8: Being a Demon King.
FE9: Wearing a goddess blessed armor while riding a dragon.
FE10: Being a Goddess or one with a strong blessing by such (portrayed as the Mantle skill).
FE13: Being a Kaiju sized Dragon fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gimle.jpg with the Dragonskin Skill.

FE9's seems like a decent fit. Hyper Sonic is "blessed by the gods" in that they created the Master Emerald.

Mechon armor durability feats:
Regular Mechon armor against sword strikes https://youtu.be/tmMj_A_GLcU?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=665 at 11:05-11:16.
Face armor against a man wielded HE gun https://youtu.be/tmMj_A_GLcU?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=338 at 5:38-5:50.
Face armor against multiple attacks (including ramming) from a Mobile Artillery https://youtu.be/tmMj_A_GLcU?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=1171 at 19:31-20:50.
Regular Mechon and Face armor versus Anti-Air Batteries https://youtu.be/GfGG-oLBpCc?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=974 at 16:14-16:46.
Jade Face claims that Mechon are made of Steel but he might have been talking metaphorically, especially when you consider how advanced the Homs are and the fact that they can’t penetrate their armor without weapons made from Mechon armor. If it is Steel then they must have given it some special treatment like how the Black Knight’s blessed armor rendered him invincible to all but a few types of attacks and weapons.

Okay, then.

Have you forgotten that Mega Man is a robot and how fast is Mega Man (not including Time Stopper like abilities)?

And?

We aren’t fighting in the Sonic universe so Sonic will wind up nuking himself.

We agreed to use each character's physics for that character, IIRC. So Sonic, for instance, doesn't explode when he goes light speed.

When does he move at lightning speed? Link please.

Dryn explained it rather well above. It's a technique called "Bolt of Lightning".

Isn’t that the one everyone wants to forget (AKA the Black Sheep)?

Yes, but while it was retconned, I still acknowledge character feats from it, since it's the same Sonic as was in the other games.

Does Rock Mario have access to steep slopes?

No, but he's already moving faster than the Boulder you showed.

Also pipes can’t bend or sway to absorb the force like a high rise.

Can't they?

It means they are far beyond everyone else in the setting.

In Zelda, an empty bottle can reflect Ganon's tennis balls of energy, while a hookshot cannot. Does this mean that the empty bottle is more powerful than the hookshot?

Banning no limit fallacies means that you can’t respond with Sonic dodges the attack.

Why is that?

Why would Sonic need to use the Chaos Emeralds if he is never in danger of being hit?

They could help for Chaos Control, or taking care of certain characters (coughganoncough).

You’re not getting off that easily Sonic!

"You won't get away with this!"

Super Sonic can’t even OHKO Robotnik’s machines.

Bolt of Lightning isn't used against Robotnik's machines.

@ Munomario777
In response to your quote block at the bottom of post 5862:
That’s good for him because the Black Knight, Deghinsea and Ashera would tear him a new one.

What exactly are you referring to?

Can Sonic survive Vantage, Adept, Cancel/Guard, Aether, Beastfoe, Corrosion, Disarm, Miracle, Counter, Resolve, Wrath or Ragnell?

• Vantage, Miracle, and Counter aren't proven to work on Sonic without extrapolation.
• Adept and Cancel require another attack to be performed before it can activate, which won't occur here.
• Aether won't be activated because Sonic attacks first.
• Beastfoe only works on a specific tribe of beasts.
• Corrosion and Disarm; Sonic isn't using a weapon.
• Resolve and Wrath's stat buffs won't put the FE characters anywhere near Sonic's level.
• Ragnell is just a sword with a few buffs, no?

Back Slash doesn’t have obscene power, the Monado does.

And Back Slash comes from the Monado. Thus, we cannot assume that all Monado attacks pack "universal power".

Arrow of Light won’t work because it isn’t holy.

Neither are the Silver Arrows, if I'm not mistaken. Either way, the Master Emerald (or rather, the Super Emeralds) fixes this.

Caliburn won’t work because it’s from a story book like the Paper Mario games.

Except here, the book and the real world are closely connected. Aside from Sonic and his chili dogs entering the storybook, in Sonic and the Secret Rings, a genie comes out of the storybook to meet Sonic.

Mewtwo taunts Sonic and gets Trick Room off that way.

By the time Mewtwo would even think of hitting , Sonic would have already obliterated him.

 

[Nerdicon]

Light speed = 396 SPD. Sonic's boost = 1200 SPD. The numbers speak for themselves. I don't see how you'd get convincing FTL travel while still having a playable game.

Except the light-speed attack and the homing attack do the same damage so either Sonic loses mass or he's still moving at the same speed...

Not to mention that with a fast and powerful enough attack Sonic can be caught in an infinite knockback loop while in Super form forced to either wait for slow death as Super Sonic or transform back into normal Sonic and die quickly. Problem is, the only character who could probably accomplish this is Samus with the Hyper Beam unless you can name other strong rapid fire attacks.

Also don't forget Kirby! Jet Kirby can hit Mach 5 at full charge and cruise at what I can assume to be a lower speed. While cruising he can convert his forward momentum into a explosive jet cracker that causes a large explosion. While traveling at max speed he creates a huge jet cracker burst to do damage. He can use the Jet Cracker both as a weapon and a braking mechanism. He comes to a complete stop as well as converting all of his energy into the jet cracker (I assume).

Withstand is not the same as survive. To withstand something would mean minimal to no damage has been done. I'll list Kirby's abilities and put Samus' next to each to give a comparison.

• Beam - Power beam
• Bomb - Bomb; power bomb
• Burning - Plasma beam, light beam
• Fire - Plasma beam, light beam
• Freeze - Ice beam
• Hi-jump - Shinespark, screw attack
• Ice - Ice beam
• Jet - Shinespark
• Laser - Light beam, nova beam
• Missile - Missile, super missile, seeker missile, hyper missile, diffusion missile
• Plasma - Plasma beam
• Spark - Plasma beam

As you can see, Samus has the same abilities as Kirby, but hers are portrayed in a more powerful manner, so if we decided to work with your idea, Kirby would still lose against Samus. Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence of Kirby's health being his durability outside of game play.
.

While I don't disagree with your verdict, I must point out Mirror Kirby who effectively counters all of Samus' attacks bar throwing Kirby via Grapple Beam. If the Mirror helper or clones could actually extend their shields then the match-up might be different story. All of Kirby's "invincible guards" share a weakness (that I noted in my invincibility analysis) they all fail when Kirby is airborne. The only attack I can think of that went through the Mirror Guard was Marx's Giant Laser not necessarily due to it's power, but because it knocks Kirby forcefully up causing him to lose the guard and get damaged. To prove this point stone can take the hit no problem.

As for arena choices I would just roll with what I said earlier, going with randomly generated terrain is too much of a wildcard.

I'd also like to note again that the various gemstones of the Fire Emblem lose their effect when placed in the shield.

 

[Munomario777]

Except the light-speed attack and the homing attack do the same damage so either Sonic loses mass or he's still moving at the same speed...

Lore > gameplay. Lore says that Sonic moves at light speed.

Not to mention that with a fast and powerful enough attack Sonic can be caught in an infinite knockback loop while in Super form forced to either wait for slow death as Super Sonic or transform back into normal Sonic and die quickly. Problem is, the only character who could probably accomplish this is Samus with the Hyper Beam unless you can name other strong rapid fire attacks.

What do you mean by "infinite knockback loop"?

Also don't forget Kirby! Jet Kirby can hit Mach 5 at full charge and cruise at what I can assume to be a lower speed. While cruising he can convert his forward momentum into a explosive jet cracker that causes a large explosion. While traveling at max speed he creates a huge jet cracker burst to do damage. He can use the Jet Cracker both as a weapon and a braking mechanism. He comes to a complete stop as well as converting all of his energy into the jet cracker (I assume).

Kirby needs to charge up before going at Mach 5 (and even that would be far too slow for Sonic, as he can travel at around Mach 294 with no charge time), and no, we can't assume anything about his other speeds because nothing is shown, implied, or stated, as per the rule.

While I don't disagree with your verdict, I must point out Mirror Kirby who effectively counters all of Samus' attacks bar throwing Kirby via Grapple Beam. If the Mirror helper or clones could actually extend their shields then the match-up might be different story. All of Kirby's "invincible guards" share a weakness (that I noted in my invincibility analysis) they all fail when Kirby is airborne. The only attack I can think of that went through the Mirror Guard was Marx's Giant Laser not necessarily due to it's power, but because it knocks Kirby forcefully up causing him to lose the guard and get damaged. To prove this point stone can take the hit no problem.

Mirror Kirby hasn't been shown to block attacks as powerful as Samus's. Saying that it could is a no-limits fallacy.

As for arena choices I would just roll with what I said earlier, going with randomly generated terrain is too much of a wildcard.

Agreed.

By the way, welcome back!

 

[monzer]

Even if it would actually work (which is under debate atm), Mewtwo wouldn't even have time to activate it.

He would just activate it after sonic hits him or while he is powering up the super sonic.

Said explosion left the planet's surface unscathed.

It's still a planet sized explosion that did little damage to Kirby.

The Milky Way Wishes map is nowhere near the size of the actual solar system.

That's because it's a video game map. Video game hub areas or maps aren't supposed to be life sized.

Super Sonic can last for about two hours and forty-five minutes. When has Kirby demonstrated the ability to "break the planet"? Even so, this arena is ultimately indestructible, and there's a ceiling, so this isn't an option.

In Megaton Punch you can crack the planet in half. If the arena is indestructible I guess that won't work but Kirby is nigh invulnerable on a warp star and can do a ton of damage. If one of those Kirby's gets on it can easily kill Sonic. of those would easily kill sonic. Again, it comes down to whether or not a Kirby could get on a warp star so I feel it could still go either way.

The Pits and Palutena (you misspelled her name) below generic Pokemon, really!?

Those Pokemon still have power close to beings that have the power to control space and time and are basically gods. I am going to look into the Kid Icarus characters to see how strong they actually are though.

 

[Munomario777]

He would just activate it after sonic hits him or while he is powering up the super sonic.

Mewtwo wouldn't be able to attack after Sonic does; it would be an OHKO (unless he's survived 300+ tons of force before).

It's still a planet sized explosion that did little damage to Kirby.

That's because of the nature of the explosion, not Kirby's durability.

That's because it's a video game map. Video game hub areas or maps aren't supposed to be life sized.

So tell me, then, why we should assume that Milky Way Wishes is the same size as our solar system.

In Megaton Punch you can crack the planet in half. If the arena is indestructible I guess that won't work but Kirby is nigh invulnerable on a warp star and can do a ton of damage. If one of those Kirby's gets on it can easily kill Sonic. of those would easily kill sonic. Again, it comes down to whether or not a Kirby could get on a warp star so I feel it could still go either way.

Kirby doesn't gain any durability from a Warp Star, does he? Speed is no issue, since Sonic is far faster than it, and even if it was faster, he could simply freeze time. Not to mention the fact that Kirby won't actually get a chance to even think about getting on a Warp Star before Sonic turns him into mush.

 

[Crystanium]

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 ,
Samus has dealt with plenty of large enemies. I could list them all off, if you'd like me to. However, I will just go ahead and list off large, mechanical enemies.

• Ridley Robot
• Hive Mecha
• Meta Ridley
• Caretaker Class Drone
• Quadraxis
• Mogenar
• Defense Drone
• Aurora Unit 313
• Mother Brain
• RB176 Ferrocrusher
• Nightmare
• B.O.X. Security Robot
• Yakuza

Because I'm not familiar with Xenoblade, I'd need to know what attacks and defenses Metal Face has.

As for Sonic, I don't think Samus has a chance because of time freeze. There's no point continuing with the match between the two. Sonic can outrun power bombs, but in order for Sonic to do that, he'd need to know what Samus is doing in the first place. So it could go either way, it just looks like it'll favor Sonic overall.

About the super bomb, I'm willing to bet the size of that bomb is the size of an ordinary bomb. Yet, in the shop, it shows the super bomb next to three normal bombs. If we assume the size of these normal bombs displayed here are the actual size by comparison (which would make sense), then super bombs are almost as tall as Link.

Link is 44 pixels tall. The bomb is is 32 pixels tall. I'll assume Link is 152.4 cm., or 5'. Usually, I have the height for child and adult Link fixed, but Link from ALttP looks a little more mature. Anyway, assuming the casing is 1 pixel, I'll divide 31 pixels over 44 pixels. This is equal to 107.37 cm. in diameter. Using 4/3 pi r^3 gives me a volume of 648,157.54 cm^3. Then I'll multiply this by the density of gunpowder (1.7 g/cm^3), giving me 1,101,867.81 g. There's 3,000 J/g in gunpowder, so a super bomb yield is 3,305,603,437.5 J, or 0.79 tons of TNT, more than enough energy to vaporize a human.

As for your math, I'll give it a look. Resolve increases strength, skill, and speed by 50% when under 50% HP. Keeping 50% in mind, the following should be:

Aether = 0.22 * 0.5 = 0.11 + 0.22 = 0.33 * 100 = 33%
Guard = 0.45 * 0.5 = 0.225 + 0.45 = 0.675 * 100 = 67.5%, or 68% if we round up.
Adept = 0.45 * 0.5 = 0.225 + 0.45 = 0.675 * 100 = 67.5%, or 68% if we round up.
Counter = 0.45 * 0.5 = 0.225 + 0.45 = 0.675 * 100 = 67.5%, or 68% if we round up.
Disarm = 0.22 * 0.5 = 0.11 + 0.22 = 0.33 * 100 = 33%
Corrosion = 0.22 * 0.5 = 0.11 + 0.22 = 0.33 * 100 = 33%

This applies to Pavise as well if Resolve works on that. I'm not sure how you did the other parts concerning OHKO.

While I don't disagree with your verdict, I must point out Mirror Kirby who effectively counters all of Samus' attacks bar throwing Kirby via Grapple Beam. If the Mirror helper or clones could actually extend their shields then the match-up might be different story. All of Kirby's "invincible guards" share a weakness (that I noted in my invincibility analysis) they all fail when Kirby is airborne. The only attack I can think of that went through the Mirror Guard was Marx's Giant Laser not necessarily due to it's power, but because it knocks Kirby forcefully up causing him to lose the guard and get damaged. To prove this point stone can take the hit no problem.

Knockback should be no issue. Missiles can launch space pirates off their feet, but what's even more interesting is so can a single power beam. If we consider that these space pirates take 20 hits from uncharged power beams and only 2 charged power beams, then imagine what a charged power beam could do to those space pirates if they already get knocked back. The charge beam would at least be increasing Samus' beams time 10.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

When is this term actually used?

A) After spinning them around. In fact, its original Japanese name is "Baton Twirling Kirby".
B) Prove that Baton Kirby is capable of controlling only one's midsection.

A) How does that mean Kirby needs to spin his victim before blowing them up?
B) The midsection is as tall as he is.

The blast came from Marx. He does this for the same reason that a car would explode; it was triggered.

You're going to need proof of this.

Prove its likelihood. I've already disproven it.

When did you disproof that there could be damage elsewhere?

Then we cannot assume.

Why not?

If Samus can track quickly moving targets with ease, I doubt a crouching one will give her any trouble.

This isn't a matter of tracking, it's a matter of aiming.

How large are they?

The yellow one.

Or an altered version of an existing one.

When was this stated?

Do you have timestamps for these?

No.

It is; just not by Kirby.

And how do you know that?

Allow me to restate my argument. At the end of Marx Soul's boss fight, Kirby launches him a small distance to the side, and then he teleports away. The former is done by Kirby, and the latter is done by Marx. In the regular Marx fight, Kirby launches him a small distance to the side, and then he flies away. Using the same pattern, the former is done by Kirby, and the latter is done by Marx.

I don't see how restating your argument did anything.

Haha, that's funny.

When did Olimar have self-esteem problems?

Striking isn't the result of a sword. A sword is an object. A sword could exist, but it's not always striking something.

How does that mean it's not the effect?

Anyway, the end result (or the ultimate effect of an action), in this case the slicing, is negated by the blocking of the attack.

The end result isn't the same thing as an effect.

Again, I ask. When?

Didn't that answer your question?

Perhaps to conserve the energy for later?

A) Bosses are getting destroyed in their fights. If they don't use their most powerful attacks, there won't be a later.
B) Characters don't lose energy in Kirby.

A) The rule in Pokemon. We don't ever see the actual rule listings, so we?
B) Then why does the slower Pokemon get to move first?

A) If the trainer/Pokemon had to agree, I wouldn't see the point of creating a room in the first place.
B) That's the effect of the move.

When did we agree not to use logic? Because that's what I'm doing.

Comparing an invincible hedgehog to a guy in a forcefield is literally one of the most illogical things I've ever heard.

It isn't always the "same exact swing". Differences in the velocity, angle, direction, etc of the bat change the ball's trajectory.

If there are changes in the swing, they could be minor changes that aren't very noticeable. Same goes with Kirby's attacks.

This isn't Meta Knight.

He pretty much is.

Ater hitting the ground,

I never saw him hit the ground.

Unless the portal only affects inhaled items/enemies.

Why would it?

Prove that these are the same attacks.

Both of them are the attacks that the bosses use.

Even so, the purple energy didn't deal that much damage to Dedede, did it?

No, but the purple energy in the explosion is a much larger quantity.

A) It lacks sufficient speed.
B) Yes. You just posted a video of Kirby taking a moment to acquire an ability.

A) Giga Bowser is still slower.
B) Through time freezing (removed) and raising his arm (removed).

A) Did we not agree that once Kirby loses a Copy Ability, he can't regain it?
B) Because the shell is above him.

A) That is only for Crash, Mike, Sleep, and Paint. Other abilities can be regained through their Copy Essence Deluxes.
B) If I had a spiky shell above me, I wouldn't jump into it.

And in every other game, acquiring the ability puts Kirby to sleep.

Point?

A) My bad. Still, it's not particularly fast.
B) Which takes time.
C) Can he not enjoy the charging?

A) It is.
B) It happens once Kirby throws the baton.
C) I wouldn't.

Yes, that's how scale works.

Since when is everything in the series scaled from Kirby?

I don't recall the Ultra Sword being very quick.

Point?

Fire doesn't cancel itself out, and fire is a form of energy.

If they're shot at each other, I mean.

Then why can't Kirby move here?

Because of a game mechanic.

The burden of proof is on you. You're arguing the positive.

You're the one who made the statement, so it's on you.

Does he not do so during, say, Rocket Dive?

Yes, and I don't see what your point is.

And the island isn't in space.

Again, different use.

Mario could just shoot it downwards.

And while he's doing that, Kirby escapes. Or switches out of stone form; he creates an explosion that would destroy the fireball and knock away the Gold Flower.

To add to the scale I was talking about.

How is the scale relevant?

It's not. However, I'd imagine less mass would be easier to turn into a gold coin.

How?

Does this actually deal damage?

It isn't an attack in Kirby.

Even if it does, it's far too slow.

Animal Statues Kirby's jumping isn't slow.

When is it stated that all power-ups transform Mario?

What I just realized is that the name of the course is "Wing Mario Under the Rainbow". Wing Mario as in, a transformation.

A) What exactly would this accomplish?
B) I can't recall offhand.

A) Killing Mario.

A) Mario has two feet.
B) I see each power-up "layer" acting as a human's durability. So if Mario suffers a lethal amount of, say, burning, he shrinks instead of dying.

A) Kirby would behind one of them, so if Mario kicked, he'd just be hurting himself.
B) That is proven otherwise. Humans don't die after being hit once with a hammer.

Yes, but holding onto something is mostly a matter of friction and coverage. Of course, it also involves the arm muscles, but without either sufficient friction or coverage, you won't get very far.

Holding Mario in place would require two hands. Of course, this is only if Kirby is actually capable of holding onto Mario in the first place.

Then three Kirbies hold onto Mario with six hands total.

Adding an ability changes Mario's available abilities.

It adds to them, but it doesn't change them.

Really?

Linking me to one page describing one item.

And yet, the former wheel cannot cut through cardboard.

I don't see what your point is.

They do, but either way, black holes appear as a result of the Lumas transforming.

That would mean Lumas can't use black holes unless one of them transforms.

Would that not happen here as well?

Yes, but not as the Lumas turning into black holes.

I don't see any gameplay suggesting that PP isn't energy. Care to direct me to that?

You can't run out of energy to use a weak fire, and still have energy to use a strong fire. You can, however, do this with PP. Therefore, PP isn't energy.

You used your argument as evidence.

When?

When does Kirby do this on someone his size?

He doesn't, because the blast can expand to their whole body.

Except he's going nowhere near the vortex.

Kirby adjusts so that he is.

He moves them. How would intangibility "counter itself" exactly?

Not sure, actually.

A) Except he has no time to do so.
B) The speed speaks for itself.

A) If Sonic is boosting, he can't get there in time.
B) But the speed only applies to when Sonic is boosting. The boost isn't permanent.

And what exactly does this prove?

That the Courage Reactor is a love device.

The AI is informing Olimar of the "observation".

Being informed of something isn't an observation.

Since when are Pikmin seven inches thick?

Each Pikmin is thicker than a piece of paper. That's what I meant.

Based on what evidence?

The enemies he saw in that area were rather weak.

He has Louie running around, telling people to call him the "king of bugs".

When?

Where does the article state that depression leads to injury?

Near the bottom.

How so? I'm saying that since the outlandish statements are often false, and the knife's space-time slicing is outlandish, that the knife's statement is likely false.

Okay.

Streams of water can "pass through" other water. For proof, try holding some sort of water jet (i.e. a water gun) underwater and aim it up.

Except you're talking about compressed water, not water streams.

How do these say anything about Rosalina's wand?

They are all in Mario. Same with the wand.

Also, Inhale passes through walls, so Kirby can always just inhale the wand anyways.

A) I'd imagine it;s a result of varying strengths from black hole to black hole. In other words, some are stronger than others.
B) By keeping her distance.

A) So, are there black holes that suck up Mario no matter where he stands?
B) You just said black holes have suction from long distances.

Feeding a Luma 300 Star Bits takes a couple of seconds. She already has the Star Bits.

Ah.

The Lumas could do so by setting their trajectory accordingly.

How would that let them place the black holes?

It also leads me to believe that Sonic could take Marth's sword while time is frozen. If he actually needed to, that is.

Marth would simply sheathe his sword beforehand so Sonic couldn't get it.

Sonic can travel in tight circles at light speed. I have no doubt that he could do so at lower speeds.

When does he do that at light speed?

When Sonic goes fast, the tornado forms.

How do you know he goes fast?

Prove this assertion, then.

The page you linked.

Dark Gaia's influence is spread throughout the entire planet, affecting all of its citizens (at night, of course). Most people are only affected on the inside, or their personalities. Their bodies are the same. With Sonic, it's the opposite. It seems that the influence "deflected" from Sonic's personality, and instead went to his body.

Do you have a video?

He sees the giant one that's tearing apart the planet.

Not in the video I posted of him howling.

So if Sonic's only personality difference is that he decides to howl, what makes you think that the Darksphere will completely reverse his intentions?

I didn't say it would reverse his intentions.

He breathes at high speeds by inhaling and exhaling, and he breathes in space because of gameplay inconsistencies. Sonic's fear of drowning is common throughout the games, and it even affects his personality and behavior.

How do you know he inhales and exhales?

Shadow, the most proficient user of Chaos Control there is, still can't time travel on his own.

Meaning that Shadow doesn't have complete control either.

Not before the Power Bomb obliterates him.

Power Bomb isn't even strong enough to match Kirby's planetary durability anyways.

That article relates to mirrors and light, not reflective guards and Power Bombs.

Then why'd you post it?

A) What makes it get weakened, then?
B) And the article does not.

A) The reflective guard.
B) See above.

We're limiting them to what's shown in gameplay, unless otherwise stated. Why should we extrapolate for Ness's bicycle?

Because you were extrapolating for Mario.

Really?

Debating with fictional characters uses levels of power, based on how much they can destroy.

And Sonic is not in Fire Emblem.

A) What's your point?
B) We're talking about Mario.

Can he survive things that tear through steel like it's nothing?

A) He survives things that tear through countries.
B) Talking about Mario again.

Because it's too much for him to control.

A) If it was too much for him to control, he wouldn't exactly be able to wear the crown.
B) We can see that the Master Crown transforms Magolor, which suggests that the power is being absorbed into his body.

And?

Being powerful shouldn't mean that Counter/Miracle can't stop something.

If they unleashed their full power on Kirby, they could, say, create an explosion so powerful that they end up killing themselves.

Yet, they are hitting Kirby, not themselves.

So, what does this prove exactly?

That Kirby launching Marx isn't an outlier.

He dies, unless he has other protection. This includes Shields, Invincibility, Color Powers, etc.

Interesting.

It has a tail.

I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to hold a lot of items with a vertical tail.

And? So does, say, Back Slash, which I'm pretty sure doesn't have "universal power".

Actually, pretty much all of Shulk's attacks have universal power.

Not exactly. Perfect Chaos, for instance, uses water and floods to destroy a city. Sonic survives these. Solaris erases time and space, leaving behind a nonsensical void. Who remains intact? Sonic. (Except he's dead, but that's separate from this.) The Time Eater sucks the life and color out of worlds, including Sonic's friends. Yet, Sonic is still alive and colorful as ever. Both of them are, in fact.

Okay.

Ah yes, him. Arrow of Light should open him up to a lightning-speed Caliburn stab.

Caliburn is a loaned weapon, isn't it?

How so? The Homing Attack/Light Speed Attack allow for rapid-fire attacks on multiple targets. Plus, Kirby would have no time to create these helpers.

Homing Attack and LSA aren't rapid.

How so? Even if Mewtwo could attack first when Trick Room is enabled (which is under debate atm), he won't have time to use the move before Sonic KOs him with a lightning-speed attack.

Barrier + Mewtwo's already high Defense stat say otherwise.

You'll need to support that. The American English version of the Cambridge Dictionary defines veritable as "used to emphasize how great or unusual something is by comparing it to something else", and the example is, "If current projection shold, Montgomery County will experience a veritable explosion in its school-age population (= it will have many more students)." That explosion isn't a real explosion, but speaks metaphorically.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/veritable?s=t
There are two different definitions here. The first is the one you provided, and it's for the British dictionary. The definition that I posted is for every other country.

Let me provide another link for extra support. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/veritable
Note how the second definition is from the Collins English Dictionary (British).

 

[Nerdicon]

Lore > gameplay. Lore says that Sonic moves at light speed.

Which really doesn't matter because gameplay still says that the light speed attack does the same damage as the homing attack which means Sonic either must be losing mass or game logic. Even if he did use said LSA he has a noticeable period of end lag if I remember correctly (if he doesn't have another target)

What do you mean by "infinite knockback loop"

When Super Sonic is hit with a powerful attack he loses a few rings and tumbles for a second or two. With no invincibility frames to save him he could be caught in an infinite loop.

Kirby needs to charge up before going at Mach 5 (and even that would be far too slow for Sonic, as he can travel at around Mach 294 with no charge time), and no, we can't assume anything about his other speeds because nothing is shown, implied, or stated, as per the rule.

For one I need a source on Sonic's speed, for two yes we can assume about other speeds by comparing the full charge speed to his cruise speed.

Mirror Kirby hasn't been shown to block attacks as powerful as Samus's. Saying that it could is a no-limits fallacy.

You don't have proof that he can't, that's making baseless assumptions

Veritable black hole, meaning that his stomach becomes a literal black hole...geez Kirby you could be a little nice sometimes. If Sonic tried to fly into Kirby and he used hypernova, Sonic would be linguine before he could react. Unfortunately for Kirby vs Samus though, this means she is immune to Hypernova due to the gravity suit negating the pull of gravity. This might mean that Kirby is resistant to gravitational fields as well given the literal black hole he keeps in hypernova form.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, that seems in-line with Schwarz being identified as a "black hole".

A) How does that mean Kirby needs to spin his victim before blowing them up?
B) The midsection is as tall as he is.

A) For the same reason that, say, Sonic has to charge up before a Spin Dash.
B) And the rest of the body is not.

You're going to need proof of this.

Marx spreads his wings as if he's flying, and stars come out from below him (indicating that some sort of force is at work).

When did you disproof that there could be damage elsewhere?

When the credits showed the surface being completely unscathed.

Why not?

Because at this point it's just speculation.

This isn't a matter of tracking, it's a matter of aiming.

Samus can aim at moving enemies, so a crouching Kirby would be no problem.

The yellow one.

Those don't really look like electrical attacks, or at least not the kind that Samus uses.

When was this stated?

It's not. It's also not stated that they're separate.

No.

Then you'll have to specify what you're referring to.

And how do you know that?

Because Kirby is applying the sideways launching force.

I don't see how restating your argument did anything.

I was hoping it would be a bit more clear.

When did Olimar have self-esteem problems?

Who ever said anything about self-esteem?

How does that mean it's not the effect?

Striking isn't the result of simply "the sword", as striking doesn't occur whenever there's a sword. The strike is the result of the swing, arm movement, etc.

The end result isn't the same thing as an effect.

It's the final effect in a chain of causes and effects (or at least, the final effect within a certain context).

Didn't that answer your question?

No, it's not specific enough.

A) Bosses are getting destroyed in their fights. If they don't use their most powerful attacks, there won't be a later.
B) Characters don't lose energy in Kirby.

A) It could be a matter of underestimating Kirby, not being very bright, or just game balance.
B) Because they don't use their most powerful (and energy-draining) attacks.

A) If the trainer/Pokemon had to agree, I wouldn't see the point of creating a room in the first place.
B) That's the effect of the move.

A) It could be giving the user a speed buff.
B) As agreed to by the trainers.

Comparing an invincible hedgehog to a guy in a forcefield is literally one of the most illogical things I've ever heard.

Right, the invincible hedgehog is actually invincible, whereas the Pokemon in the forcefield isn't (although the forcefield itself is rather protective).

If there are changes in the swing, they could be minor changes that aren't very noticeable. Same goes with Kirby's attacks.

Prove that they exist, then.

He pretty much is.

In that case, each of the Clone Troopers is Jango Fett.

I never saw him hit the ground.

Then you may want to try rewatching the video you linked.

Why would it?

Perhaps because it's one-way (i.e. only works on the side of the "portal" that's facing away from Kirby).

Both of them are the attacks that the bosses use.

And these bosses have multiple attacks.

No, but the purple energy in the explosion is a much larger quantity.

It seems more like white/pink energy to me.

A) Giga Bowser is still slower.
B) Through time freezing (removed) and raising his arm (removed).

A) The fireballs aren't.
B) Why is raising his arm removed?

A) That is only for Crash, Mike, Sleep, and Paint. Other abilities can be regained through their Copy Essence Deluxes.
B) If I had a spiky shell above me, I wouldn't jump into it.

A) I'm pretty sure we agreed to the Copy Abilities getting knocked out of him. I'd have to go back and look, though.
B) And so the solution you suggested earlier (Kirby flying up out of the way) isn't applicable here.

Point?

One spinoff game < multiple main series games.

A) It is.
B) It happens once Kirby throws the baton.
C) I wouldn't.

A) He has to spin it.
B) After spinning it.
C) Kirby seems to be.

Since when is everything in the series scaled from Kirby?

Since Kirby appeared next to them. Kirby is eight inches tall, so if an object is, say, three times Kirby's height, we can conclude that it's two feet tall (3 * 8 inches = 2 feet).

Point?

It's slow enough for Bowser to counter attack.

If they're shot at each other, I mean.

Flamethrowers can be shot at each other, and I don't believe that they cancel out.

Because of a game mechanic.

Which is?

You're the one who made the statement, so it's on you.

You're arguing the positive, and you haven't proven it, so the burden of proof rests on you.

Yes, and I don't see what your point is.

Then it's more similar to Rocket Dive, which has no charge and thus doesn't travel at Mach 5.

Again, different use.

And the same thing applies to the enemy launched by the tornado.

And while he's doing that, Kirby escapes. Or switches out of stone form; he creates an explosion that would destroy the fireball and knock away the Gold Flower.

While Mario is shooting at Kirby, Kirby turns into gold.

How is the scale relevant?

The more mass something has, the more mass has to be converted into gold by the Gold Flower. Kirby is smaller (and less massive) than things that the Gold Flower can transform, so it will work.

How?

There's more mass that must be converted. One Gold Flower can convert one Brick Block into gold, but not two.

It isn't an attack in Kirby.

Then why would it hurt Mario?

Animal Statues Kirby's jumping isn't slow.

Are you seriously telling me that this isn't slow? Even if Kirby wasn't eight inches tall, he'd still be moving at the speed of molasses.

What I just realized is that the name of the course is "Wing Mario Under the Rainbow". Wing Mario as in, a transformation.

"Wing Mario" isn't any more indication of a transformation than "Colonel Jones" is.

A) Killing Mario.

When does Mario die from something like this?

A) Kirby would behind one of them, so if Mario kicked, he'd just be hurting himself.
B) That is proven otherwise. Humans don't die after being hit once with a hammer.

A) Um... what? I don't see how Kirby being behind Mario would lead to him hurting himself.
B) Still, I think it should be something more than a first degree burn on a small area of his body.

Then three Kirbies hold onto Mario with six hands total.

When are there three Kirbies that can all attack at once?

It adds to them, but it doesn't change them.

It changes the list.

Linking me to one page describing one item.

Really? I'm seeing about fifty different Mega Stones there.

I don't see what your point is.

Not being able to destroy one specific thing doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of force.

That would mean Lumas can't use black holes unless one of them transforms.

Point?

Yes, but not as the Lumas turning into black holes.

Point?

You can't run out of energy to use a weak fire, and still have energy to use a strong fire. You can, however, do this with PP. Therefore, PP isn't energy.

I could be holding two flashlights in either hand. One is a small pocket-sized one, and the other is a large, heavy-duty model. My small flashlight runs out of batteries, but I can still use the large one. Does this mean that the electricity is not energy?

When?

Me: Cutscenes are made to progress the story.
You: Not necessarily.
Me: How so?
You: Bonus cutscenes aren't.

He doesn't, because the blast can expand to their whole body.

Then we can't assume.

Kirby adjusts so that he is.

He has no time to. Sonic is moving at the speed of lightning (224,000 MPH).

A) If Sonic is boosting, he can't get there in time.
B) But the speed only applies to when Sonic is boosting. The boost isn't permanent.

A) Sonic is moving at the speed of lightning. That's 224,000 MPH, Mach 294 (ish), or enough to cross the entire arena in practically the blink of an eye. Sonic will have no trouble getting there in time.
B) It lasts long enough.

That the Courage Reactor is a love device.

I don't see the logic in this.

Being informed of something isn't an observation.

He observed the scanners, most likely.

Each Pikmin is thicker than a piece of paper. That's what I meant.

And do they add up to seven inches thick?

The enemies he saw in that area were rather weak.

Point?

When?

It's mentioned in his journal entry.

Near the bottom.

The only thing I found about "injury" in that article is in the "triggers" section.

Okay.

So by virtue of likelihood, the knife's space-time-slicing is likely false.

Except you're talking about compressed water, not water streams.

Point?

They are all in Mario. Same with the wand.

Being in the same series doesn't mean that they behave in the same way.

Also, Inhale passes through walls, so Kirby can always just inhale the wand anyways.

Unless Rosalina keeps it away from Kirby.

A) So, are there black holes that suck up Mario no matter where he stands?
B) You just said black holes have suction from long distances.

A) No, but they can reach pretty darn far.
B) And Rosalina keeps a longer distance.

How would that let them place the black holes?

By aiming so that they end up in the right place.

Marth would simply sheathe his sword beforehand so Sonic couldn't get it.

A sheathed sword can still be removed. If Marth wants to use his sword, he'd best keep it out.

When does he do that at light speed?

The Light Speed Attack/Dash can curve in tight trajectories.

How do you know he goes fast?

We clearly see it in gameplay.

The page you linked.

We don't see any indication of the animal being attached to the teeth.

Do you have a video?

Yes.

Not in the video I posted of him howling.

He saw it from the beginning of the game (or at least the opening cutscene).

I didn't say it would reverse his intentions.

Is that not the point of this argument?

How do you know he inhales and exhales?

Because this happens.

Meaning that Shadow doesn't have complete control either.

He has enough control to freeze time etc.

Power Bomb isn't even strong enough to match Kirby's planetary durability anyways.

"Planetary durability" is meaningless.

Then why'd you post it?

Because we were discussing a different subject.

A) The reflective guard.
B) See above.

When does it weaken an explosion of this magnitude?

Because you were extrapolating for Mario.

When?

Debating with fictional characters uses levels of power, based on how much they can destroy.

So, who destroyed a continent then?

A) What's your point?
B) We're talking about Mario.

Erm, Mario isn't in Fire Emblem. Since he isn't in Fire Emblem, "it negates everything in Fire Emblem" is irrelevant here.

A) He survives things that tear through countries.
B) Talking about Mario again.

Such as?

A) If it was too much for him to control, he wouldn't exactly be able to wear the crown.
B) We can see that the Master Crown transforms Magolor, which suggests that the power is being absorbed into his body.

A) Unless he didn't activate it fully.
B) Not necessarily all of it.

Being powerful shouldn't mean that Counter/Miracle can't stop something.

It means we can't make baseless assumptions.

Yet, they are hitting Kirby, not themselves.

And they could cause an explosion as a result. It's like shooting an RPG at a box five feet in front of you. The box will explode, but so will you.

That Kirby launching Marx isn't an outlier.

When does Kirby launch things into space?

Interesting.

So this wouldn't automatically make Mewtwo win.

I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to hold a lot of items with a vertical tail.

Can't a Pokemon only hold one item?

Actually, pretty much all of Shulk's attacks have universal power.

Actually, they don't. Back Slash doesn't destroy the universe.

Caliburn is a loaned weapon, isn't it?

Not exactly. See, Caliburn is part of the legendary sword Excalibur, which is meant for the true king of England (AKA King Arthur). At the end of Black Knight, it's revealed that Sonic is the real "King Arthur", so Caliburn is his.

Homing Attack and LSA aren't rapid.

Homing Attack
The Light Speed Attack is a bit faster than that.

Barrier + Mewtwo's already high Defense stat say otherwise.

Prove that they can block an attack with 300+ tons of force.

Which really doesn't matter because gameplay still says that the light speed attack does the same damage as the homing attack which means Sonic either must be losing mass or game logic.

Normal enemies die in one hit, so dealing more damage isn't really an option. Either way, Bolt of Lightning should suffice.

Even if he did use said LSA he has a noticeable period of end lag if I remember correctly (if he doesn't have another target)

Really? I haven't heard of this before. Do you have a source?

When Super Sonic is hit with a powerful attack he loses a few rings and tumbles for a second or two. With no invincibility frames to save him he could be caught in an infinite loop.

It depends on A) whether or not the opponent has that reaction time and B) how many attacks they can dish out in a quick enough succession.

For one I need a source on Sonic's speed,

The attack called "Bolt of Lightning" states that Sonic "turns into a bolt of lightning at top speeds". Since he isn't actually a bolt of lightning here, we can reasonably assume that it means the speed of a bolt of lightning. Lightning moves at 224,000 MPH, or about Mach 294.

for two yes we can assume about other speeds by comparing the full charge speed to his cruise speed.

The rule states that objects move at the speeds shown unless stated otherwise.

You don't have proof that he can't, that's making baseless assumptions

There's no proof that it can.

Veritable black hole, meaning that his stomach becomes a literal black hole...geez Kirby you could be a little nice sometimes. If Sonic tried to fly into Kirby and he used hypernova, Sonic would be linguine before he could react.

For one, Kirby "black holes" =/= IRL black holes, as demonstrated by both Hypernova itself and Schwarz. Even if it did act like a real black hole (and thus we assume that this is true for all series), Sonic outran one in Sonic Colors without even going Super, and Kirby wouldn't have time to react anyways.

 

[Crystanium]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/veritable?s=t
There are two different definitions here. The first is the one you provided, and it's for the British dictionary. The definition that I posted is for every other country.

Let me provide another link for extra support. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/veritable
Note how the second definition is from the Collins English Dictionary (British).

Here you go. From Vocabulary.com. If it was a real black hole, then it wouldn't be possible for Kirby's mouth to be blocked off during the battle against Queen Sectonia. Black holes also don't inhale things. Also, your link to Word Reference says "veritable" is to be understood metaphorically if it's prenominal. In this case, it is a prenominal adjective, or the adjective precedes the noun, "veritable black hole". Once again, it is often understood as a metaphor. Besides, why does it matter if one is British and the other is not? Am I to think that Americans created English, or should I take it from the British? Am I to think that if someone else is from the Europe, that I should ignore them on this matter?