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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Munomario777

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I'm just going to leave this here. There's really no arguing with that.
Death Battle is known for amping things up to eleven (often far beyond what actually happens in the games), and this episode is no different. The Hammer, Sword, and Fighter abilities are exaggerated in terms of strength, as well as the speed at which Kirby can execute the attack. The Warp Star hasn't been stated in canon to travel at light speed, and the Inhale is also exaggerated (the enemy Kirby inhaled to obtain the Hammer Power can't be inhaled, nor can projectiles as large as the one he inhaled in the forest scene). Kirby would have died early in the match if the video was going by how his durability is portrayed in the games (he can take about six hits or so in Kirby 64, and his health isn't anything astonishing in other games either). The only time Kirby inhaled the Warp Star to gain the Star Rod was in a dream, not reality (the Star Rod is also exaggerated, by the way). Not even Hypernova Kirby has been shown to inhale a giant energy ball, let alone send it back at an opponent. Also, I don't think Kirby ever became the sun itself.

That said, it's a very well done animation, and one that I enjoyed the first time I watched it. It's just that it doesn't portray the character 100% accurately to canon. Kirby is quite a formidable fighter, however.
 

Endei

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Death Battle is known for amping things up to eleven (often far beyond what actually happens in the games), and this episode is no different. The Hammer, Sword, and Fighter abilities are exaggerated in terms of strength, as well as the speed at which Kirby can execute the attack. The Warp Star hasn't been stated in canon to travel at light speed, and the Inhale is also exaggerated (the enemy Kirby inhaled to obtain the Hammer Power can't be inhaled, nor can projectiles as large as the one he inhaled in the forest scene). Kirby would have died early in the match if the video was going by how his durability is portrayed in the games (he can take about six hits or so in Kirby 64, and his health isn't anything astonishing in other games either). The only time Kirby inhaled the Warp Star to gain the Star Rod was in a dream, not reality (the Star Rod is also exaggerated, by the way). Not even Hypernova Kirby has been shown to inhale a giant energy ball, let alone send it back at an opponent. Also, I don't think Kirby ever became the sun itself.

That said, it's a very well done animation, and one that I enjoyed the first time I watched it. It's just that it doesn't portray the character 100% accurately to canon. Kirby is quite a formidable fighter, however.
All right. Well. How about this canon?
 

Munomario777

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Yes. He just self-destructed and came back just fine.
There's a difference between blowing yourself up voluntarily and being blown up by an attack; exploding and then coming back is rather common. Plus, Kirby has been hurt by explosions in the games anyway.
 

Nerdicon

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Hmm, interesting. It is an extra mode, though, so I think we should try to find something in the main game before we draw any conclusions, just to be safe.
Agreed, I consider all subgames non-canon unless stated otherwise.

Ah, I see. I was thinking more along the lines of Kirby actually initiating the attack (as opposed to the counter nature of the Bell, which relies on the opponent's attack to do damage).
There are only three examples besides the various moves some abilities have with invincibility frames. Wheel, Tornado, and Snow Bowl. Wheel is invincible (for the most part) as long as he keeps his speed up. However it has a sole weakness to spikes which will do damage regardless. Wheel also absorbs the element of the terrain it's travelling on. Tornado only has about 4-5 seconds of invincibility in the games with a small opening at the end of the attack. In the anime it can also create giant tornados, but there's no evidence he's invincible while doing this. Similarly to Wheel, Tornado absorbs the elements of the terrain around it but to a greater extent. Finally Snow Bowl is invincible for the entirety of the attack, and anything caught in it is stuck until Kirby releases the attack causing a large burst of snow and massive damage, the only thing is that it's a super ability and it only lasts a small amount of time

Interesting. So it can inhale certain full bosses, not just mid-bosses. Is there anything that the Hypernova isn't able to inhale in the games (besides the solid level structure and the like), to give us an idea of what Kirby can and cannot do?
Ehhh...it's kinda inconsistent. Hypernova has the destructive power to brutalize a large boss and redirect a devastating laser yet at the same time have the finesse and precision to pull a snowball from point A to point B while perfectly maintaining its shape. It's reasonable to believe that Kirby might have some sort of control over the power of the Hypernova based on this inconsistency. That, or in the Kirby universe, snow is incredibly heavy:)
 

Endei

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There's a difference between blowing yourself up voluntarily and being blown up by an attack; exploding and then coming back is rather common. Plus, Kirby has been hurt by explosions in the games anyway.
Okay how about THIS:
Magolor will pull out his black hole attack; the black hole itself is now an ominous brown color and will wipe out 75% of Kirby's HP if it manages to suck him in
This along with Marx's dimensional rift attack are the most fatal in the Kirby series. And yet. Only wiping 75% of Kirby's HP. Which. Afterwards he gets up just fine.
 

Nerdicon

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Death Battle is known for amping things up to eleven (often far beyond what actually happens in the games), and this episode is no different. The Hammer, Sword, and Fighter abilities are exaggerated in terms of strength, as well as the speed at which Kirby can execute the attack. The Warp Star hasn't been stated in canon to travel at light speed, and the Inhale is also exaggerated (the enemy Kirby inhaled to obtain the Hammer Power can't be inhaled, nor can projectiles as large as the one he inhaled in the forest scene). Kirby would have died early in the match if the video was going by how his durability is portrayed in the games (he can take about six hits or so in Kirby 64, and his health isn't anything astonishing in other games either). The only time Kirby inhaled the Warp Star to gain the Star Rod was in a dream, not reality (the Star Rod is also exaggerated, by the way). Not even Hypernova Kirby has been shown to inhale a giant energy ball, let alone send it back at an opponent. Also, I don't think Kirby ever became the sun itself.

That said, it's a very well done animation, and one that I enjoyed the first time I watched it. It's just that it doesn't portray the character 100% accurately to canon.
Well, Hypernova would've worked on Buu's Planet Buster if the Sectonia battle is any indication, not to mention I feel that since they counted the anime as the definitive canon, his abilities aren't oversold. Srsly, anime Kirby would Kirb stomp this entire thread (heh heh, get it? I'm so clever amirite?)
 

Endei

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Well, Hypernova would've worked on Buu's Planet Buster if the Sectonia battle is any indication, not to mention I feel that since they counted the anime as the definitive canon, his abilities aren't oversold. Srsly, anime Kirby would Kirb stomp this entire thread (heh heh, get it? I'm so clever amirite?)
Anime Kirby is in fact canon. Only because Sakurai did have involvement with it.
 

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Ehhhh...to be short about it I feel that most of that only the content in the anime that isn't completely contradicted has a place in this discussion.
Aah. You'd be surprised with how well thought out the Kirby Anime is. I've watched it all and havn't come across a plot hole yet. At least its 10x more consistent than the Kirby games will ever be.

Because really. How many different areas has Whispy Woods been in now? Cookie Country? Green Greens? CITY TRIAL?! lol
 

Munomario777

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Agreed, I consider all subgames non-canon unless stated otherwise.
Glad we're on the same page.
There are only three examples besides the various moves some abilities have with invincibility frames. Wheel, Tornado, and Snow Bowl. Wheel is invincible (for the most part) as long as he keeps his speed up. However it has a sole weakness to spikes which will do damage regardless. Wheel also absorbs the element of the terrain it's travelling on. Tornado only has about 4-5 seconds of invincibility in the games with a small opening at the end of the attack. In the anime it can also create giant tornados, but there's no evidence he's invincible while doing this. Similarly to Wheel, Tornado absorbs the elements of the terrain around it but to a greater extent. Finally Snow Bowl is invincible for the entirety of the attack, and anything caught in it is stuck until Kirby releases the attack causing a large burst of snow and massive damage, the only thing is that it's a super ability and it only lasts a small amount of time
I see. So each of them has a weakness, then. Seems fair. By the way, does the Tornado have any major cooldown time?
Ehhh...it's kinda inconsistent. Hypernova has the destructive power to brutalize a large boss and redirect a devastating laser yet at the same time have the finesse and precision to pull a snowball from point A to point B while perfectly maintaining its shape. It's reasonable to believe that Kirby might have some sort of control over the power of the Hypernova based on this inconsistency. That, or in the Kirby universe, snow is incredibly heavy:)
I see. Do you know what the heaviest thing the Hypernova has sucked up, then?
Okay how about THIS:
This along with Marx's dimensional rift attack are the most fatal in the Kirby series. And yet. Only wiping 75% of Kirby's HP. Which. Afterwards he gets up just fine.
Just because it's a black hole doesn't mean it's the most powerful attack. If an attack insta-kills Kirby (which I'm sure has happened at some point), that means it's more powerful than this attack.
Anime Kirby is in fact canon. Only because Sakurai did have involvement with it.
By that logic, Subspace (and Smash as a whole) is canon to the Kirby series (as well as every other instance where the same person works in two different things).
Aah. You'd be surprised with how well thought out the Kirby Anime is. I've watched it all and havn't come across a plot hole yet. At least its 10x more consistent than the Kirby games will ever be.

Because really. How many different areas has Whispy Woods been in now? Cookie Country? Green Greens? CITY TRIAL?! lol
So recurring character = inconsistency. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
 

Endei

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Just because it's a black hole doesn't mean it's the most powerful attack. If an attack insta-kills Kirby (which I'm sure has happened at some point), that means it's more powerful than this attack.

By that logic, Subspace (and Smash as a whole) is canon to the Kirby series (as well as every other instance where the same person works in two different things).

So recurring character = inconsistency. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
What?...

What?... ...

... What?...

Okay. The only thing I can try to reply to is the first one. I guess.

Nevermind. I tried. But couldn't. The only thing I could say to you is that A black hole is a black hole. No matter how you twist and turn it. (puns are strong in this thread tonight)
 

Munomario777

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What?...

What?... ...

... What?...

Okay. The only thing I can try to reply to is the first one. I guess.

Nevermind. I tried. But couldn't. The only thing I could say to you is that A black hole is a black hole. No matter how you twist and turn it. (puns are strong in this thread tonight)
A black hole that does less damage than other attacks is not the most powerful attack. Just because an attack resembles a black hole doesn't mean it's automatically the most powerful attack ever.
 

Endei

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A black hole that does less damage than other attacks is not the most powerful attack. Just because an attack resembles a black hole doesn't mean it's automatically the most powerful attack ever.
Okay what about that time where Kirby revived himself from being PETRIFIED (trophicated via subspace emissary) just by BEING HUNGRY?
 

Nerdicon

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Well let's just assume Flowery Woods is made out of a soft wood which when fresh weighs 30 pounds per cubic foot let's also assume flowery woods is a perfect cylinder (he fans out a bit at the top but I'll have disregard this for now). The formula for the volume of a cylinder is area of the base x height. We already have the height but the area of the base is another story. The easiest way to find the area is probably to find the circumference of Flowery and work from there (due note that I will be using the DX version's design as the attacks and design it has make measurements easier). Kirby's width is about twice as large as the space Flowery's eyes cover, and Flowery's eyes cover about the area of one of the notches on Flowery's body. So one notch on it's body is 4 inches. Upon closer inspection I found that there are 8 of these notches making Flowery Woods' circumference 32 inches.

To get the area we first need to do some formulas in reverse to get the radius of Flowery so if the formula for circumference is pi times the radius times 2, then we need to do 32 divided by 2 (16), and then 16 divided by pi (simplified as 3.14) which gives us 5.0955414. Taking the radius and plugging it into the formula for area of a circle: pi times radius squared would give us 81.5286625 square inches. So now 60 inches times 81.5286625 is 4891.71975 cubic inches. Now that needs to be converted into cubic feet which means we need to divide by 12 cubed (as we're dealing with three dimensions) which gives us 2.83085634 cubic feet. Now we simply have to find out how much that weighs by multiplying our cubic feet by how much fresh wood weighs gives us a final result of 84.9256902 pounds. This is leaving out a few of the things in the situation, Flowery weighs a little more since it's not a perfect cylinder plus the roots and foliage. Not to mention Flowery Woods was rooted into the ground making it harder for Kirby to suck him up. All in all it's safe to say Hypernova could inhale things well over a hundred pounds without much effort
 

Crystanium

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Well, the jet doesn't seem to be accelerating in velocity when the sonic boom happens. The acceleration strengthening the sonic boom does make sense in Sonic's case though, since the shock wave only happens at the beginning of the Sonic Boost.
It seemed like it was when I saw the video. And of course it'll make sense in Sonic's case. It makes sense in any case when an object reaches supersonic speed.

True. Sonic is quite a bit bigger than a bullet, though, so there would probably be some difference.
Of course, but as I cited, one of the factors is the size of the object, since more air is displaced with a larger object.

Yes. You said the blue streak initially, so I pointed out that it was the shock wave effect instead.

Good; one less thing we need to debate about. :p
I would sure hope.

If Sonic can fashion blades of wind, as well as redirect wind around himself, it's safe to say that he could keep the air from damaging things. Didn't you say that air manipulation was unnecessary anyway, in the above paragraph?
I suppose it could be a possibility, but it seems more reasonable to say that the sonic boom isn't large in Sonic's case because of his size. If Sonic is tapping into the Chaos Emeralds or whatever to produce blades of wind, then it no longer is a case of Sonic possessing aerokinesis, but Sonic's ability to use the Chaos Emeralds as a weapon.

"Ultimate: the best achievable or imaginable of its kind." Infinite power is achievable in Sonic's world (thanks to the Master Emerald), and you can't really get much better than infinity. :p
Gorea, an enemy in Metroid Prime Hunters, sends telepathic messages to different hunters, telling them of the ultimate power, which could be referring to himself, or the Omega Cannon, a weapon of mass destruction, or something else. It doesn't mean it's infinite. No doubt, the Master Emerald may possess undefined power, but to say it's infinite power requires more evidence than simply citing the dictionary.

I can agree with this definition of "ultimate". I think it is the correct definition in this context.

Actually, it's the Master Emerald that is directly stated to contain "infinite power" (which, by extension, grants the Chaos Emeralds that same infinite power, for reasons mentioned above). Citations can be found by clicking the link in the Master Emerald's name in one of my above posts.
I only see the definition from a dictionary, but not from any manual or game description. Do you have where it is directly stated to contain infinite power?

Why wouldn't the Light Speed Dash function the same way exactly?
Because it doesn't obey Einsteinian's understanding of light. As you would have it, lore takes precedence.

Well, displacing air and shaping it into a blade are two different things. I could kick right now, but it wouldn't launch a sword made of pure air at my enemies. As for whether or not it's actually air that he's manipulating, the move looks similar to three of his other wind-based attacks: the Sonic Wind from Sonic Adventure 2 (summons a cyclone to damage opponents), the Sonic Boost from multiple games (creates an aura of air to damage opponents), and the Blue Tornado from Sonic Heroes (summons a tornado to damage enemies). Also, again, you said that it didn't matter whether or not he could manipulate the air, so I still don't see why we're discussing this.
Of course you could because you don't live in the Sonicverse. However, I am suspecting it is a power generated by the Chaos Emeralds.

Well let's just assume Flowery Woods is made out of a soft wood which when fresh weighs 30 pounds per cubic foot let's also assume flowery woods is a perfect cylinder (he fans out a bit at the top but I'll have disregard this for now). The formula for the volume of a cylinder is area of the base x height. We already have the height but the area of the base is another story. The easiest way to find the area is probably to find the circumference of Flowery and work from there (due note that I will be using the DX version's design as the attacks and design it has make measurements easier). Kirby's width is about twice as large as the space Flowery's eyes cover, and Flowery's eyes cover about the area of one of the notches on Flowery's body. So one notch on it's body is 4 inches. Upon closer inspection I found that there are 8 of these notches making Flowery Woods' circumference 32 inches.

To get the area we first need to do some formulas in reverse to get the radius of Flowery so if the formula for circumference is pi times the radius times 2, then we need to do 32 divided by 2 (16), and then 16 divided by pi (simplified as 3.14) which gives us 5.0955414. Taking the radius and plugging it into the formula for area of a circle: pi times radius squared would give us 81.5286625 square inches. So now 60 inches times 81.5286625 is 4891.71975 cubic inches. Now that needs to be converted into cubic feet which means we need to divide by 12 cubed (as we're dealing with three dimensions) which gives us 2.83085634 cubic feet. Now we simply have to find out how much that weighs by multiplying our cubic feet by how much fresh wood weighs gives us a final result of 84.9256902 pounds. This is leaving out a few of the things in the situation, Flowery weighs a little more since it's not a perfect cylinder plus the roots and foliage. Not to mention Flowery Woods was rooted into the ground making it harder for Kirby to suck him up. All in all it's safe to say Hypernova could inhale things well over a hundred pounds without much effort
Kirby is 83 px. tall. This is equal to 8 in. (20.32 cm.). Considering Flowery Woods is based off Whispy Woods, who drops apples from his branches, I'd say this is an apple tree. The density of wood from an apple tree ranges between 0.6568 g/cm^3 to 0.833 g/cm^3. The volume for a cylinder is actually the radius of the base times its height, and we must include pi into the equation. For the height, I assumed 261 px. Flowery Woods might be somewhat taller. It's also 156 px. long. This makes the radius 78 px.

261 px. / 83 px. is 3.144578313253012, making Flowery Woods at least 63.89783132530120384 cm. tall. 78 px. / 83 px. is 0.9397590361445783, making the radius 19.095903614457831056 cm. I understand these sizes do not match with actual trees, since I'm using Kirby's height and Kirby's universe has smaller objects. Anyway, let's continue. Knowing the height and radius of Flowery Woods gives us an approximate volume of 73,200.9 cm^3. Using m = dv where m is mass, d is density, and v is volume, Flowery Woods has a mass of approximately 48,078.35 grams, or 48.08 kg. (105.99 lb.). A typical male is 70 kg.

In both Nerdicon's case and mine, Flowery Woods actually weighs more, since the leaves and branches, as well as the curvature of its form was not considered. So we could just say 100 kg. (220 lb.) for simplicity sake. It's good to see we both came to a close calculation. And I'm happy to see that we have a quantifiable number for Kirby's inhalation ability.
 
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Munomario777

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It seemed like it was when I saw the video. And of course it'll make sense in Sonic's case. It makes sense in any case when an object reaches supersonic speed.
Meh, not really. It seems like the plane comes in at about the same speed as it leaves. As for it making sense for Sonic, I was just pointing out that Sonic's sonic booms match up with how they would in real life, at least to that extent.
Of course, but as I cited, one of the factors is the size of the object, since more air is displaced with a larger object.
Very true.
I would sure hope.
Yup.
I suppose it could be a possibility, but it seems more reasonable to say that the sonic boom isn't large in Sonic's case because of his size. If Sonic is tapping into the Chaos Emeralds or whatever to produce blades of wind, then it no longer is a case of Sonic possessing aerokinesis, but Sonic's ability to use the Chaos Emeralds as a weapon.
Sonic doesn't have the Chaos Emeralds at the beginning of Lost World 3DS, but the Somersault Kick is still available from the beginning. This is one of Sonic's innate abilities.
Gorea, an enemy in Metroid Prime Hunters, sends telepathic messages to different hunters, telling them of the ultimate power, which could be referring to himself, or the Omega Cannon, a weapon of mass destruction, or something else. It doesn't mean it's infinite. No doubt, the Master Emerald may possess undefined power, but to say it's infinite power requires more evidence than simply citing the dictionary.
I provided this source earlier in the discussion.
I can agree with this definition of "ultimate". I think it is the correct definition in this context.
Sounds good.
I only see the definition from a dictionary, but not from any manual or game description. Do you have where it is directly stated to contain infinite power?
See above.
Because it doesn't obey Einsteinian's understanding of light. As you would have it, lore takes precedence.
Yes, lore takes precedence. Einstein says that a hedgehog without an infinite power source (which I've provided evidence for him having anyways) can't travel at the speed of light, and lore says that he can. Lore takes precedence, so Sonic can travel at the speed of light.
Of course you could because you don't live in the Sonicverse. However, I am suspecting it is a power generated by the Chaos Emeralds.
See above.
Kirby is 83 px. tall. This is equal to 8 in. (20.32 cm.). Considering Flowery Woods is based off Whispy Woods, who drops apples from his branches, I'd say this is an apple tree. The density of wood from an apple tree ranges between 0.6568 g/cm^3 to 0.833 g/cm^3. The volume for a cylinder is actually the radius of the base times its height, and we must include pi into the equation. For the height, I assumed 261 px. Flowery Woods might be somewhat taller. It's also 156 px. long. This makes the radius 78 px.

261 px. / 83 px. is 3.144578313253012, making Flowery Woods at least 63.89783132530120384 cm. tall. 78 px. / 83 px. is 0.9397590361445783, making the radius 19.095903614457831056 cm. I understand these sizes do not match with actual trees, since I'm using Kirby's height and Kirby's universe has smaller objects. Anyway, let's continue. Knowing the height and radius of Flowery Woods gives us an approximate volume of 73,200.9 cm^3. Using m = dv where m is mass, d is density, and v is volume, Flowery Woods has a mass of approximately 48,078.35 grams, or 48.08 kg. (105.99 lb.). A typical male is 70 kg.

In both Nerdicon's case and mine, Flowery Woods actually weighs more, since the leaves and branches, as well as the curvature of its form was not considered. So we could just say 100 kg. (220 lb.) for simplicity sake. It's good to see we both came to a close calculation. And I'm happy to see that we have a quantifiable number for Kirby's inhalation ability.
Nice! Very well calculated.
 
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Crystanium

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I provided this source earlier in the discussion.
I've been there, but I didn't see any links to provide "infinite power" concerning the Master Emerald. I would suspect Knuckles would talk about the Master Emerald. I just don't know where to actually look in the game(s) he speaks of them.

Yes, lore takes precedence. Einstein says that a hedgehog without an infinite power source (which I've provided evidence for him having anyways) can't travel at the speed of light, and lore says that he can. Lore takes precedence, so Sonic can travel at the speed of light.
My point is that the description can say Sonic is traveling at the speed of light, but if this light speed travel behaves differently from our universe, then perhaps Sonic isn't actually traveling 186,282 miles per second. He could be exceeding this, or he could not. If the damage he is causing is equal to to when he uses his homing ability, then that probably just means as I stated before: he travels at light speed, but regains mass upon impact.

Nice! Very well calculated.
Thanks. I might lean towards 150 kg., only because the leaves (or whatever Flowery Woods has on its head) could really add a lot more weight.
 
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I've been there, but I didn't see any links to provide "infinite power" concerning the Master Emerald. I would suspect Knuckles would talk about the Master Emerald. I just don't know where to actually look in the game(s) he speaks of them.
I think it's mentioned somewhere in Sonic X/the comic book series, but it's likely mentioned in a game as well. It doesn't really matter, though, for reasons explained below:
My point is that the description can say Sonic is traveling at the speed of light, but if this light speed travel behaves differently from our universe, then perhaps Sonic isn't actually traveling 186,282 miles per second. He could be exceeding this, or he could not. If the damage he is causing is equal to to when he uses his homing ability, then that probably just means as I stated before: he travels at light speed, but regains mass upon impact.
Again, lore > gameplay > real world science. Lore says that Sonic moves at light speed. Therefore, any contradictions to the lore made by gameplay and real world science are invalid.
Thanks. I might lean towards 150 kg., only because the leaves (or whatever Flowery Woods has on its head) could really add a lot more weight.
Mmmhmm.
 

Crystanium

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I think it's mentioned somewhere in Sonic X/the comic book series, but it's likely mentioned in a game as well. It doesn't really matter, though, for reasons explained below:

Again, lore > gameplay > real world science. Lore says that Sonic moves at light speed. Therefore, any contradictions to the lore made by gameplay and real world science are invalid.

Mmmhmm.
Well, again, it being a different universe, the speed of light could be different. So, that really isn't helping Sonic.
 

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Well, again, it being a different universe, the speed of light could be different. So, that really isn't helping Sonic.
Why would it be a different speed? There's nothing saying it in the lore, and nothing hinting at it in the gameplay. That's like saying that sound moves at a slower speed in the Metroid universe.
 

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Why would it be a different speed? There's nothing saying it in the lore, and nothing hinting at it in the gameplay. That's like saying that sound moves at a slower speed in the Metroid universe.
Because you're contesting the way the speed of light actually works, making it non-applicable in the Sonicverse.
 

Crystanium

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The speed of light isn't non-applicable in the Sonic universe just because Sonic can reach that speed.
Of course not. It simply does not share the same qualities as light does in our universe, so the speed may or may not be the same. I find it most reasonable that Sonic becomes massless. I find it reasonable that because becoming a massless object would not produce enough momentum to even harm an ant that Sonic regains mass upon impact. The destruction caused by the homing attack is the same as it is when Sonic uses Light Speed Attack. We can see this in this video. By the way, I really like how they show the shock wave. Way awesome! Sonic is incredibly fast!
 
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Munomario777

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Of course not. It simply does not share the same qualities as light does in our universe, so the speed may or may not be the same. I find it most reasonable that Sonic becomes massless. I find it reasonable that because becoming a massless object would not produce enough momentum to even harm an ant that Sonic regains mass upon impact. The destruction caused by the homing attack is the same as it is when Sonic uses Light Speed Attack. We can see this in this video. By the way, I really like how they show the shock wave. Way awesome! Sonic is incredibly fast!
When is it shown that light in the Sonicverse does not share the same qualities as it does in real life? It lets us see, it doesn't affect movement, it presumably moves at the same speed... Also, that's a nice video of a modded Sonic game you have there. In Sonic Adventure, the Light Speed Attack deals twice the damage to Chaos 6 (Perfect Chaos minus one Emerald).
 

Nerdicon

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Kirby is 83 px. tall. This is equal to 8 in. (20.32 cm.). Considering Flowery Woods is based off Whispy Woods, who drops apples from his branches, I'd say this is an apple tree.
In an ingame cutscene, it's shown that Flowery woods was grown from a flower, but at the same time is somehow made of wood. I used a general weight for soft wood because of this.
The volume for a cylinder is actually the radius of the base times its height, and we must include pi into the equation. For the height, I assumed 261 px. Flowery Woods might be somewhat taller. It's also 156 px. long. This makes the radius 78 px.
Taken off Bing, the volume of a cylinder is V = π r^2 h where π r^2 is the area of a circle. So because of this your answer might be off.
 

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When is it shown that light in the Sonicverse does not share the same qualities as it does in real life? It lets us see, it doesn't affect movement, it presumably moves at the same speed... Also, that's a nice video of a modded Sonic game you have there. In Sonic Adventure, the Light Speed Attack deals twice the damage to Chaos 6 (Perfect Chaos minus one Emerald).
In that case Sonic when doing a normal homing attack is moving at 93,000 miles per second, which simply isn't the case. I think it's reasonable to believe Sonic doesn't quite move at Light Speed
 

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In that case Sonic when doing a normal homing attack is moving at 93,000 miles per second, which simply isn't the case. I think it's reasonable to believe Sonic doesn't quite move at Light Speed
I'm not saying that the Homing Attack travels at twice the speed of light. I'm just pointing out that the Light Speed Attack does more damage in the game. My guess is that the Homing Attack has some other properties to make up for it; for example, Sonic might be putting more speed into the rotation of his ball form, but less into the speed of his movement, when performing the Homing Attack as opposed to the Light Speed Attack.
 

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I'm not saying that the Homing Attack travels at twice the speed of light. I'm just pointing out that the Light Speed Attack does more damage in the game. My guess is that the Homing Attack has some other properties to make up for it; for example, Sonic might be putting more speed into the rotation of his ball form, but less into the speed of his movement, when performing the Homing Attack as opposed to the Light Speed Attack.
What're you talking about? 93,000 miles per second is half the speed of light, not double.
 

Munomario777

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I miss this thread... So here's a little spark to maybe help bring it back! :)

:4mario:VS:4sonic:

Both of these characters come from series with quite a few power-ups in them. Thus, I will be going through their arsenals (along with their natural abilities) and presenting attacks and counterattacks for each character. As for the health system, Mario will be using the health system from his most recent game, that being Super Mario 3D World (power-ups serve as hitpoints). Sonic will be using his usual Ring system (gets hit with Rings, he loses them; gets hit without Rings, he dies), of which he will start off with 999 (I believe he can probably hold more, but I'll be using this agreed number for the sake of this discussion). All items, gear, power-ups, etc. are granted to each character, and they will also have one of each consumable. The arena is a ten-mile wide square arena, with a stone floor and infinitely high solid steel walls; nothing comes in, nothing goes out. With that said, let's get started!

First up, Mario's attacks!

:4mario:'s Attack: Jump Punch
Combining the speed of his jumps with his punches, Mario can deliver an uppercut powerful enough to break bricks.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Spin Jump
Sonic's basic attack has him curl up into a spiny, spinning ball to damage enemies. Mario's fist wouldn't make it out of this in one piece.

:4mario:'s Attack: Ground Pound
This attack has Mario leap in the air, charge up for a brief moment, and stomp on the opponent with more force than a regular Jump.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Quill Harden
Sonic can make his quills stiff and sharp at will (as demonstrated in his Up Throw from Smash, as well as any time he goes into ball form). Sonic could harden his quills and face them upwards while Mario is charging up to damage Mario.
:4mario:'s Counter Counter: Kuribo's Shoe
This giant boot allows Mario to jump on spikes.
:4sonic:'s Counter Counter Counter: Attack From Above
Sonic could get out of the way of the Shoe and attack Mario from his vulnerable top.

:4mario:'s Attack: Hammer
Mario's iron hammer can crush brick blocks, damage foes, and more.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Blue Tornado
This attack has Sonic run around in circles to create a tornado that can whisk away enemies and weapons (including the Hammer).

:4mario:'s Attack: Pick Up and Throw
Mario's superhuman strength allows him to pick up heavy objects and foes (including Bowser!) and throw them across large distances.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Chaos Control
Using the power of a Chaos Emerald, Sonic can teleport at will by saying "Chaos Control!" This would allow him to escape Mario's grasp and attack from behind.

:4mario:'s Attack: F.L.U.D.D.
This water pack allows Mario to fire a steady stream of water to clean up things. Sonic could also drown from this.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Bubble Shield
Sonic's Bubble Shield allows him to breathe underwater without drowning.

:4mario:'s Attack: Fire Flower
This flower grants Mario pyrokinetic abilities, ranging from simple Fireballs to Mario Finale-esque flame attacks.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Fire Shield
Sonic's basic power-up is the Shield (provides an extra hit point). The Fire Shield is a variant of this, which negates all fire, lava, and otherwise heat-based attacks (and also protects against one attack that is not fire-based).

:4mario:'s Attack: Super Star
This power-up grants Mario brief invincibility, along with enhanced speed, enhanced jumping, and the ability to damage enemies on contact.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Wait it Out
Sonic's natural speed is even greater than that of the Super Star, and since the invincibility only lasts about fifteen seconds or so, Sonic could outrun Mario for more than long enough for the Super Star to wear off.

:4mario:'s Attack: Super Leaf
This leaf has Mario don the ears and tail of a raccoon, which allows him to fly for a short period of time after a running start and spin around to attack with his tail.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Sonic Wind
Sonic spins around rapidly to create a blade of wind as a projectile. Sonic could use this to shoot Mario out of the air mid-flight. As for the spinning attack, Sonic could use this to attack from a distance and stay out of tail range.

:4mario:'s Attack: Tanooki Suit
This suit has the same abilities of the Super Leaf, but also has the ability to turn into a statue to become invincible for a little while and crush opponents.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Wait it Out/Sonic Wind/Get Outta the Way
The points from the Super Star/Super Leaf segments apply here. As for the crushing, Sonic's speed and reflexes are more than enough to get out of the way.

:4mario:'s Attack: Hammer Suit
Mario dons the Hammer Suit, allowing him to throw an infinite amount of hammers, as well as entering his shell to block fire attacks.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Dodge
Sonic can easily dodge projectiles like Mario's hammers due to his speed and reflexes, and regular attacks still work on a blocking Hammer Mario.

:4mario:'s Attack: Cape Feather
Mario dons a yellow cape, allowing him to fly for an indefinite amount of time. Mario can also spin with the cape to attack and reflect projectiles.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Extreme Gear
Since the Cape can reflect projectiles, the Sonic Wind is not an option. Thus, Sonic resorts to his Extreme Gear, which is a type of hoverboard. Sonic could ride this up to Mario's height and attack from it (which will be expanded on in Sonic's attack section).

:4mario:'s Attack: Vanish Cap
This hat lets Mario become invisible and intangible for a short period of time, potentially letting him sneak up on opponents.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Sense Danger
Sonic's quills can sense danger. This would allow him to realize that Mario was sneaking up on him and counterattack.

:4mario:'s Attack: Blue Koopa Shell
Don't worry, this isn't the one from Mario Kart (that would just be unfair on so many levels). Instead, Mario dons the Blue Koopa Shell from New Super Mario Bros. This grants him many Koopa abilities, such as sliding in his shell to increase his defense and attack enemies.
:4sonic:'s Counter: You're Too Slow!
Sonic is well known for his speed, and of course, it's faster than that of the slide granted by the shell. Sonic would outrun the shell, and since Mario needs a running start to slide, he would have to come out eventually. That's when Sonic attacks.

:4mario:'s Attack: Double Cherry
This power-up allows Mario to create a clone of himself, which copies his every move (and dons the same power-ups). This would allow Mario to attack from two angles, so that if one is destroyed, the other could counterattack.
:4sonic:'s Counter: Light Speed Attack
This attack allows Sonic to attack multiple enemies in quick succession at light speed. This would allow Sonic to attack both Marios before one could attack.

Now that we're done with Mario's attacks, let's move onto Sonic's!

:4sonic:'s Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
:4mario:'s Counter: Jump
I could say "Super Star" for everything, but those are only for a limited time, and Mario only has one; Sonic can run forever. Mario could potentially jump over Sonic's running, however.
:4sonic:'s Counter Counter: Gotta Be Faster Than That!
Mario's reflexes aren't nearly enough to dodge a Mach 10-speed hedgehog.

:4sonic:'s Attack: Spin Jump
Sonic can utilize his natural ability to curl up into a ball when he jumps, damaging any opponent he comes in contact with.
:4mario:'s Counter: Hammer Suit
Sonic's spinning attacks don't protect him from projectiles, so his hammers are one of Mario's best options here.

:4sonic:'s Attack: Spin Dash
Sonic can rev up in ball form, and after a couple of seconds, launch off at top speed in his damaging ball form.
:4mario:'s Counter: Hammer Suit
Again, Sonic can still be hurt by projectiles while in ball form.
:4sonic:'s Counter Counter: Maneuverability
Sonic can control his speed very well, even in ball form, and could dodge Mario's hammers easily.

:4sonic:'s Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
:4mario:'s Counter: Blue Koopa Shell
Mario could hide in his tougher shell until the attack is finished.
:4sonic:'s Counter Counter: You Wanna Try Attacking?
Mario has to come out of his shell and become vulnerable again to attack.

:4sonic:'s Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
:4mario:'s Counter: Hammer Suit
Hammers, ball form, you get the idea.
:4sonic:'s Counter Counter: Homing Attack Again
Sonic's Homing Attack can also destroy solid projectiles (including the hammers).

:4sonic:'s Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
:4mario:'s Counter: N/A
Mario's reflexes aren't fast enough to dodge a light speed attack.

:4sonic:'s Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons (including Mario's power-ups!) and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
:4mario:'s Counter: Metal Cap
Mario turns into metal, becoming much heavier and thus immune to being lifted up.
:4sonic:'s Counter Counter: Wait it Out
The Metal Cap doesn't last forever, and it runs out after about fifteen seconds.

:4sonic:'s Attack: The Wisps
The Wisps are a race of alien power-ups that can grant Sonic different Color Powers. These include a bomb, a black hole, a laser, and more.
:4mario:'s Counter: N/A
Not even the Super Star is invulnerable to a black hole (as shown in Super Mario Galaxy).

:4sonic:'s Attack: Chaos Control!
Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds' power to teleport, freeze time, and more.
:4mario:'s Counter: N/A
Mario has no power-ups that make him immune to time freezing.

:4sonic:'s Attack: Super Sonic Style!
Sonic's ultimate transformation, this has Sonic harness the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic is faster, invincible, stronger, flying, and more, at the cost of one Ring per second. With a maximum of 999 Rings, Sonic can stay in this form for about sixteen and a half minutes. This is more than enough time for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle.
:4mario:'s Counter: N/A
Mario does not possess any power-ups that grant him invincibility for that kind of time period.

VERDICT
Although Mario is a competent fighter with his wide variety of power-ups, Sonic's natural speed, agility, strength, and his own power-ups are too much for him to handle.

WINNER: :4sonic:

SOURCES
:4mario:Mario's abilities Mario's power-ups
:4sonic:Sonic's abilities and power-ups

This analysis is part of the bracket
 
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Diddy Kong

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Mega Mushroom Mario could stand a chance against Super Sonic I'd say. He must also have plenty of other sources for invincibility. Others probably know better.
 

the king of murder

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So I am playing FE: Awakening now(yay), so I cant make long posts now. I will just throw my personal top 10

S+ Tier
:4shulk:
:pt:
S Tier
:4ganondorf:
:4sonic:
:4palutena:
:4samus:
A Tier
:4pit:
:4darkpit:
:4myfriends:
:4bowser:/:4kirby:(Can't decide)

There may be more A rank threats but it's kinda hard to decide. If you disagree with me feel free to argue, this list is in no way perfect but that is how I feel.
 
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Munomario777

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So I am playing FE: Awakening now(yay), so I cant make long posts now. I will just throw my personal top 10

S+ Tier
:4shulk:
:pt:
S Tier
:4ganondorf:
:4sonic:
:4palutena:
:4samus:
A Tier
:4pit:
:4darkpit:
:4myfriends:
:4bowser:/:4kirby:(Can't decide)

There may be more A rank threats but it's kinda hard to decide. If you disagree with me feel free to argue, this list is in no way perfect but that is how I feel.
I don't think Shulk should be that high; as has been said previously, he basically told Alvis to do "that thing" at the end of Xenoblade. Otherwise, nice list. I'm a proponent of Sonic being the strongest, but I do agree that Pokemon Trainer and Ganondorf could potentially give him some trouble (although Sonic could probably react before Pokemon Trainer could order his Pokemon, and has holy weapons to take down Ganondorf).
 

Munomario777

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Like I said previously, I don't know anything about Xenoblade. What do you mean with that thing? Also where would you put Shulk?
I haven't played Xenoblade either, but I did check my facts. As for "that thing":
After the battle, Alvis appears before Shulk, and shows him a vision of the past, in which Zanza was once a human scientist named Klaus. He and Meyneth performed an experiment that attempted to create a new universe, but accidentally destroyed their universe and caused the two of them to become gods. They then created the universe of Bionis and Mechonis. Needing a physical host, but unwilling to risk their departure for other worlds, Zanza initiated a cycle of destruction and rebirth to keep life on Bionis, creating beings from the ether and destroying them with the Telethia when they threatened to leave. Alvis reveals that he was originally the administrative computer of the space station where the experiment was performed. Alvis then informs Shulk that their world is expiring, and that Shulk, as its new god, must decide the world's fate. Shulk chooses to recreate the universe as a world without gods, causing a new universe to form.

Source
As I said, I don't know much about Xenoblade, so I don't know where I would put him based on the events of that game. I'd imagine that his adaptability with the Monado Arts would give him a bit of an advantage, though.
 
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