Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying, I should have googled that myself.

No problem.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still think Mewtwo from R/B/Y is Top Tier. It can have all sorts of sets to shutmdown mostmof the cast am sure of.

 

[Nerdicon]

I still think Mewtwo from R/B/Y is Top Tier. It can have all sorts of sets to shutmdown mostmof the cast am sure of.

I think Kirby and MK are top tier, even if they are tiny. I would like to do a match-up some time or another

 

[Nerdicon]

vs

Maneuverability
Pit is a well trained soldier of Palutena's army so he is obviously light on his feet. Pit's top land speed in KIU is 37.5 meters per second or 135,000 meters per hour, or just 83.9 miles per hour. Pit also has access to powers such as Warp and several different variations of jump; the best for general maneuverability being jump glide. Between warp and an amazing ground speed Pit seems like a tough contender right? Well no. His speed depends on his weapon, and while with Brawler Claws he could hit top speed with little effort, he wouldn't be able to get near that number with a club or heavy arm.
Rosalina has never exhibited any extraordinary athleticism, as a matter of fact she's a little on the slow side. She does however (using the Lumas) have access to the launch, sling, and pull stars. With the Luma's assistance she could probably close large gaps with a little effort. Rosalina has also been shown to levitate, so yeah that's another important point. All in all though, Pit's overall speed beats out Rosalina's.
WINNER:

Defense
Pit in general is a bit fragile, going down in only a few hits against stronger enemies, and getting thrown around like a ragdoll in the process. Although these can be alleviated somewhat with powers such as Aries Armor and Brief Invincibility, nothing really saves him from getting finished too easily.
Rosalina's a bit inconsistent in this category, in Galaxy she had a shield she would use to defend herself, as well as floating directly in front of a black hole without being fazed. She regularly stands right in front of a blue-white star of sorts which can reach temperatures upwards of 10,000-40,000 degrees Kelvin (17540-71540F). In 3D world though, she could be felled by a simple Goomba. But using her durability from Galaxy, Rosalina's a tough cookie

WINNER:

Firepower
As someone said before me, Pit is a walking arms depot. There are a total of 110 different weapons he could use if you count the Great Sacred Treasure and Three Sacred Treasures. The sacred treasures grant him flight and immense firepower there are a few other weapons worth noting. The Black Club is supposedly made up of all elements known to man, making it incredibly dense (so dense I don't feel like calculating it!) so that has to hurt. The Earthmaul Club has a range of over 120 meters, making it Pit's longest ranged weapon. Then there's offensive powers like Explosive flame, mega laser, meteor shower, and instant death attack. The last one only worked in solo mode though...
Rosalina has the lumas who can create entire galaxies, stars, planets, or black holes. More realistic stars and black holes. That's all she needs really. There's no way Pit could escape being ripped apart by a black hole

WINNER:

Other
Pit can make himself invisible for a short time using transparency or play dead, as well as avoid some attacks using bumblebee. For whatever reason, using the celestial firework power makes Pit invincible. Pit tires out and becomes immobile after sprinting for too long
Rosalina has also exhibited some sort of invisibility, as well as gravity manipulation. She can fire star bits as well as use a spin attack. The Lumas can also spin attack and hold some objects in place like small projectiles.

Honestly, Pit may have more options, but Rosalina doesn't need options because she can win with what she has, easily may I add.

OVERALL WINNER:

 

[Sakuraichu]

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

If Shulk becomes god, shouldn't he be S tier?

 

[The Smashor]

Mario can just spam 1-up mushrooms to make himself immortal!!! And acording to SSE, all fighters are immortal. They can't permaltly die. am I the only one that noticed that?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Mario can just spam 1-up mushrooms to make himself immortal!!! And acording to SSE, all fighters are immortal. They can't permaltly die. am I the only one that noticed that?

Smash is non-canon.

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

If Shulk becomes god, shouldn't he be S tier?

Spoiler

Nope. He should be SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier

 

[Goolloom]

A lot could be said about every character, each one's strenghts and weaknesses, but at least most people could agree with this:
-: Invincible to anything that is not the Master Sword, Light Arrows or any other Holy source
-: Strongest psychic abilities, able to destroy anything and can mind control everyone else.
-: Her and the Lumas can create entire galaxies, which inculdes countless stars and a supermassive black hole that could easily decimate everything.
-: The fastest in the Smash roster, he can become nearly invincible provided he has the Chaos Emeralds and the rings.
-: Near indestructible suit with a huge variety of weapons that can easily take out anything that stands in her way.
-Some people also seem to put pretty high too, but I don't know anything about him.
-Any character in the series can become invincible and can kill anything with the very limited Starman
-Apparently, is pretty high only because of the pokemon he can get and use.
Honorable Mention to as he managed to punch the Moon out of orbit into Earth's atmosphere, didn't melt when going throught it and can survive in space (Donkey Kong Country Returns). In Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, he claps hard enough to produce sound waves that hurts his enemies. Like most characters he can become invincible too by using Crystal Coconuts (mostly in Donkey Kong 64)

 

[Braydon]

#1
He's the vessel of a dark god, that is invincible to everything but itself, and can only be killed by robin.
#2
He becomes a god in many zelda games through the power of the triforce.
#3
He killed the goddess of order.
#4
He possesses unrivaled psychic power.
#5
Metaknight not only has speed to rival sonic but is the most skilled swordsman, and can fly, through space. About the worst thing that has ever befallen metaknight is to have his mask crack at which point he flies away.




is a wimp, who has absolutely no power at all without using star power.

 

[|RK|]

No worries.

Sonic will be a knight again when he holds the sword again and turns into a knight again (which, due to the best-of-all-games nature of this thread, we're assuming he can do). It doesn't matter if something is the "essence" of his character. If we go with that, every character will be a one-trick pony (Mario just jumps, Sonic just spins, Kirby just inhales, Link just uses a sword, and everything gets really boring really fast). I'm fine with not talking about dimensions or that kind of stuff anymore. Again, due to the nature of the thread, we're assuming anything that happened once can happen again (Sonic would be fine with just his recurring abilities, though; the Emeralds plus his natural abilities are more than enough in Kirby's case at least). I assume you take Hypernova into account when discussing Kirby, yet that happened only in one game. The Copy Essence Deluxe, which gives Kirby access to his abilities normally gained from enemies (which you've been assuming he can do), only appeared in one sub-game (being Milky Way Wishes) in Kirby Super Star and its remake. Without game-specific abilities/items, Kirby can only imitate his opponent (which could result in a tie at best, due to the nature of copying the opponent), fly, perform some standard punches/kicks, and spit out air.

Kirby also saves powers in Squeak Squad

Also, Kirby's abilities are usually more powerful than the foe he takes then from. That's how it works in the anime, and that's how it works in the games for smaller enemies.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

#1
He's the vessel of a dark god, that is invincible to everything but itself, and can only be killed by robin.
#2
He becomes a god in many zelda games through the power of the triforce.
#3
He killed the goddess of order.
#4
He possesses unrivaled psychic power.
#5
Metaknight not only has speed to rival sonic but is the most skilled swordsman, and can fly, through space. About the worst thing that has ever befallen metaknight is to have his mask crack at which point he flies away.




is a wimp, who has absolutely no power at all without using star power.

So Meta Knight is higher than Kirby? Also, Robin should definitely not be that high.

 

[Munomario777]

Holy thread revival Batman!

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

If Shulk becomes god, shouldn't he be S tier?

Spoiler

Nope. He should be SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier

Gee, it sure would be nice if people read the previous page...

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

Shulk basically told Alvis to reset the world at the end of Xenoblade Chronicles.
Source + more details

Mario can just spam 1-up mushrooms to make himself immortal!!! And acording to SSE, all fighters are immortal. They can't permaltly die. am I the only one that noticed that?

Extra lives aren't allowed, and Smash isn't canon. If you mean the 1-UP Mushrooms from the Mario & Luigi series, Luigi needs to be there to feed the Mushroom to the dead Mario.

#1
He's the vessel of a dark god, that is invincible to everything but itself, and can only be killed by robin.
#2
He becomes a god in many zelda games through the power of the triforce.
#3
He killed the goddess of order.
#4
He possesses unrivaled psychic power.
#5
Metaknight not only has speed to rival sonic but is the most skilled swordsman, and can fly, through space. About the worst thing that has ever befallen metaknight is to have his mask crack at which point he flies away.




is a wimp, who has absolutely no power at all without using star power.

Except he can be killed in-game by any enemy.
Ganon's only getting the Triforce of Power, since that's his piece of the Triforce (the Triforce of Wisdom is Zelda's and Courage is Link's).
"Goddess of Order" isn't something I could find documentation of Ike killing in the plot (and even if he did, what I said for Robin still applies).
Olimar has unrivaled Pikmin abilities, but he's not top tier. Being unrivaled in an area doesn't mean you're the best at everything; it would be helpful if you could provide some examples of Mewtwo using psychic abilities in a way that would earn him this spot.
I don't think Meta Knight has ever been shown to travel at Mach 10, let alone the speed of light. He can also be killed in the same amount of hits as Kirby in Kirby's Return to Dream Land, in which he is a playable character.
Star power is extremely powerful, though. Black holes, stars exceeding temperatures of 100 billion degrees Fahrenheit. Plus, she has a protective shield and such.

Kirby also saves powers in Squeak Squad

Also, Kirby's abilities are usually more powerful than the foe he takes then from. That's how it works in the anime, and that's how it works in the games for smaller enemies.

True, but that requires use of the Bubble Copy Ability (gotten from an enemy) to copy those powers (from enemies) in the first place, and seeing as how there are no regular enemies in this hypothetical battlefield, he would need the Copy Essence Deluxe either way.

That's probably because those enemies are rather weak to begin with (Waddle Dee <<<<<<<<<< most of the competitors here).

Anyway, since this is a new "era" of sorts for the thread, I'll quote my previous post here, for reference:

So, I thought I'd just make a comprehensive guide to Sonic's abilities, for future reference.

Speed
Sonic's most notable, consistent, and famous trait is his superhuman (or superhedgehog, as it were) speed. As his name implies, Sonic is able to run faster than the speed of sound. Additionally, in the Sonic Adventure DX manual, he is stated to be "the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog," "hypersonic" being speeds ranging from 3,840 mph to 7,680 mph. In fact, in Sonic Unleashed, it's hinted that Sonic can run far beyond the speed of light, since the Light Speed Dash (more on this move later) clocks in at 396 SPD, while Sonic's running speed clocks in at above 2,800 SPD. This speed allows him to scale vertical surfaces as well as wall-run horizontally, and he can also run on the surface of water. He can also run as fast backwards as he can forwards. Despite this speed, however, he can turn very sharply at top speed, and almost never misses his target, since he has reflexes to match his speed. The Drift and the Quick Step can also help him maneuver at high speed. His super speed has other applications as well. For instance, Sonic can heal himself by vibrating his molecules very quickly, he can create shockwaves, and he can create an Insta-Shield made of speed energy for a split second to pierce enemy defenses.

Physical Abilities
In addition to his super speed, Sonic also possesses a great amount of agility, being able to dodge nearly anything thrown at him. He can jump several hundred feet in the air, and possesses many jumping techniques, such as a short hop, Spin Jump, Wall Jump, Triangle Jump, double jump, and more midair techniques. He also has great control over his movement, able to dodge attacks swiftly and gracefully despite their incoming speed and his own current velocity. While he may not be quite as physically strong as his friend Knuckles, Sonic still possesses superhuman strength. He can push large objects with ease, and he can lift objects much larger than he is while still running at top speed. His Spin attacks are also very powerful, but they'll be getting their own section. Most of his physical attacks involve kicks rather than punches, since his legs are where his true power lies, between his kicks and his running. For instance, the Stomp can crush many surfaces and defeat many foes, and in Sonic Adventure 2, he was able to topple the huge Egg Golem with just one kick. In addition, Sonic has been shown to be able to tough it through many dangers. He can survive crossfire from all angles, he can smash through several robots with his fist without showing any signs of pain, and most impressively, he can survive atmospheric reentry, doing so on many occasions throughout the series. He also possesses a great amount of willpower, shown in Sonic Unleashed when he keeps his head when under Dark Gaia's influence. This also allows him to keep fighting even when the situation seems bleak and hopeless, and even if he does get mind controlled, it's safe to say that he will do everything in his power to get his head back. Contrary to popular belief, Sonic can swim by using his Spin Jump repeatedly in water, but he still can't breathe while submerged, needing to come up for air eventually (unless using certain power-ups listed below).

Techniques and Moves/Miscellaneous
Besides his running speed, Sonic's signature technique is his ability to curl up into a spiky, spinning ball to attack opponents. In Sonic Heroes, this attack can break through the entire Egg Fleet without even moving at the speed of sound. He can perform this attack when jumping, rolling along the ground, homing in on enemies with the Homing Attack, rocketing downward and bouncing off the ground with the Bounce Bracelet, and revving up with the Spin Dash, allowing him to rocket off at top speed from a standstill. The Spin Attack also allows him to burrow through the ground, depending on how soft it is. The Light Speed Dash has him him dashing along a line of Rings at light speed, and the Light Speed Attack combines this with the Homing Attack to create an extremely powerful strike. The Blue Tornado has him running in circles and creating a whirlwind to throw opponents, defenses, or weapons into the air, and he can concentrate this wind into a blade to fire at his opponents with the Sonic Wind. The Boost allows him to create a blue aura of pure speed (or wind, whatever floats your boat) to blast through opponents at top speed without taking any damage. This move can also be used in midair, allowing him to rocket forward without even touching the ground. Sonic can also apparently control how hard his quills are, since they appear sort of floppy normally, but in his spinball form, they're razor-sharp. This is also demonstrated in his Up Smash in Smash Brothers. His quills can also sense danger, as shown in Sonic and the Secret Rings. Sonic is also very skilled at riding Extreme Gear (super-fast hoverboards), taking on the world's champion in the field, and then even defeating Metal Sonic, who had copied all the data, skills, and techniques from the top Extreme Gear riders in the world. He can also transfer his speed to other objects, shown when he propels mining platforms forward in Sonic Generations's Planet Wisp stage. Sonic has also been shown to be extremely skilled at swordfighting, defeating the Knights of the Round Table and even King Arthur himself in Sonic and the Black Knight when wielding the legendary sword Caliburn (which later becomes Excalibur).

Items/Power-ups
Sonic's first power-ups are the Shields. The basic Shield allows him to take an extra hit, but he also has the Elemental Shields, which block a hit like the normal one does, but with added bonuses. The Bubble Shield grants Sonic a bounce attack and lets him breathe underwater, as well as deflecting minor projectiles. The Electric Shield allows Sonic to double jump, blocks small projectiles, and negates electric attacks, but goes away upon contact with water. The Fire Shield gives Sonic a midair dash attack and protects him from fire attacks, but can't touch water without being extinguished.

In Sonic 2006, Sonic obtains special shoes called the Custom Shoes at the beginning of the game. He can then buy upgrades for these special shoes known as Gems (not to be confused with the Chaos Emeralds, which I'll get into later on), of which there are eight. These Gems grant Sonic different abilities, listed below:
- The Blue Gem gives Sonic a speed boost that allows Sonic to reach top speed instantly
- The Green Gem creates a tornado that can be used to attack enemies
- The Purple Gem shrinks Sonic, allowing him to slip through tight areas, as well as jump infinitely
- The Red Gem slows down time, useful for sneaking past enemies in combination to Sonic's natural speed
- The Sky Gem can be thrown, and when it lands, it draws Sonic towards it like a tractor beam
- The White Gem allows Sonic to levitate in place in mid-air to control his direction more easily and enhance his Homing Attack
- The Yellow Gem gives Sonic a Thunder Shield, but without a double-jump
- A mysterious eighth "Rainbow Gem" from the beta versions of the game, the purpose of which is unknown

In addition, the alien power-ups known as Wisps grant him different Color Power transformations, such as:
- A laser that can pierce through enemies and obstacles, as well as bouncing off surfaces
- A drill that can burrow through soft material and damage enemies/obstacles, as well as giving better underwater mobility and underwater breath
- A rocket that can shoot up into the sky, as well as breaking obstacles and harming enemies
- A spiked ball that can cling onto walls/ceilings, as well as breaking obstacles and harming enemies
- A cube that sends out a shockwave that damages enemies and obstacles, as well as toggling blue rings/blocks
- A hovering green thing that can fly through the air, as well as harm enemies
- A nightmarish giant chomping head thing that grows in size when it eats things, such as obstacles and enemies
- A black hole that can fly, as well as sucking in obstacles and enemies
- A fireball that can fly with explosions, as well as blowing up obstacles and enemies
- A different black hole that creates an asteroid belt with the enemies and obstacles it sucks up, as well as jumping higher with a bigger belt
- An eagle that can soar through the skies, as well as attacking obstacles and enemies
- A music note that can... flop around. (And damage obstacles and enemies!)
- A lightning bolt that can move very quickly and travel through conductive substances, as well as attacking obstacles and enemies
- An iron ball that can climb walls, as well as creating shockwaves when it lands, damaging obstacles and enemies
- A bomb that can explode on obstacles and enemies

Now, this is where he really starts to get impressive.

Chaos Powers
The seven Chaos Emeralds are the most powerful artifacts in the Sonic universe, containing ultimate power when combined. Luckily for Sonic, he has access to all seven of them. Using these gems, he can freeze time, slow down time, teleport, and use other Chaos Powers. However, these all pale in comparison to Sonic's ultimate transformation:

Super Sonic Style!
Combining all of the Chaos Emeralds along with fifty Rings (of which he can hold up to 999 30,000, or possibly 999,999; see Sonic Adventure 2 Battle's Chao Garden), Sonic can transform into Super Sonic, turning golden and gaining a golden aura. He gains the ability to fly, becomes practically invincible (except to crushing, drowning, and falling into bottomless pits), and becomes even faster, being able to move at the speed of light. Sonic can jump higher, has increased reflexes to match his increased speed, and becomes much stronger, being able to smash through robots, barriers, and space fleets with his face! He also possesses a reflective shield, waves of destructive golden energy, and the Super Sonic Boost, which is similar to the regular Boost, but faster and more powerful. Of course, this form also allows Sonic to use the aforementioned Chaos Powers, since both use the Chaos Emeralds. The only real limitation to this form is the fact that Sonic needs Rings to maintain this form, and it drains one Ring every second he remains in the transformation. However, as mentioned above, Sonic's maximum Ring count is 999 (see above strikethrough note) Rings, which would allow him to stay in this form for about 16 minutes eight hours and twenty minutes going with the 30,000 count, or about 11 days with the 999,999 count. This is plenty for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle. Even if he runs out of Rings before the battle is over, he still has numerous backup transformations, such as:
- Hyper Sonic, obtained by harnessing the power of the Super Emeralds (Chaos Emeralds + Master Emerald) and 50 Rings. Basically Super Sonic, but with enhanced abilities and a screen nuke. Used sparingly.
- Darkspine Sonic, obtained by harnessing the World Rings of rage, hatred, and sadness. Grants flight, greater strength, unlimited Soul Gauge powers (which are increased speed with Speed Break and slowing down time with Time Break), and pyrokinetic abilities.
- Excalibur Sonic, obtained using the power of the four sacred swords. Grants flight, a golden suit of armor, a red cape, and the ability to wield the legendary sword Excalibur.
- Sonic the Werehog, induced by Dark Gaia's negative energy. Loses his trademark speed, but retains his agility and gains super strength, stretchy arms, and limited energy manipulation.
- The aforementioned Color Powers granted by the Wisps.

All in all, with his speed, agility, strength, willpower, and Super Sonic, Sonic is truly a force to be reckoned with, able to adapt to almost any situation thrown at him. However, he rarely shows his true potential except when he's in truly dire situations. As said by the Blue Blur himself, "An adventure's no fun if it's too easy!"

Feats
- Defeated several god monsters, such as Dark Gaia, Solaris, the Time Eater, the Biolizard (AKA the ultimate life form), and even singlehandedly defeated Perfect Chaos, which harnessed the power of the Chaos Emeralds, in his normal form
- Foiled Dr. Robotnik/Eggman's plans, from enslaving five entire planets with a space amusement park in order to mind control the world to erasing time and space itself
- Won the Extreme Gear tournaments and even defeated a robot which harnessed the skills of the world's top Gear riders
- Defeated King Arthur himself at swordfighting
- Defeated Ultimate Emerl, who had the abilities of every character in the game as well as the raw power of all seven Chaos Emeralds, in his normal form
- Travelled through time on multiple occasions
- A bunch of stuff that I'm probably forgetting

Source
The Sonic News Network (Sonic Wiki)

 

[Jimothy]

I don't have much to add, but Shulk is definitely the strongest. Because [XENOBLADE SPOILERS]















The Monado III gives Shulk the power to create anything from Ether particles, which is basically their equivalent of atoms. At the end of Xenoblade, he is given the power of a god. He can also use the Monado to destroy anything and revert it back to its original state, that state being Ether. So basically, if Shulk wanted to, one swing of the Monado, and he could destroy the entire cast of Smash. He could even turn M2K into ether for calling his sword the Monando instead of the Monado.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't have much to add, but Shulk is definitely the strongest. Because [XENOBLADE SPOILERS]















The Monado III gives Shulk the power to create anything from Ether particles, which is basically their equivalent of atoms. At the end of Xenoblade, he is given the power of a god. He can also use the Monado to destroy anything and revert it back to its original state, that state being Ether. So basically, if Shulk wanted to, one swing of the Monado, and he could destroy the entire cast of Smash. He could even turn M2K into ether for calling his sword the Monando instead of the Monado.

...
Did you even read the post I just made?

Gee, it sure would be nice if people read the previous page...

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

Shulk basically told Alvis to reset the world at the end of Xenoblade Chronicles.
Source + more details

 

[Nerdicon]

Spoiler

test

After hearing so much discussion, I think I'll actually take a look at the ending of Xenoblade, just to get a good stance on the topic.

 

[Nerdicon]

SPOILER ALERT. XENOBLADE SPOILERS!!!

Spoiler

"After the battle, Alvis appears before Shulk, and shows him a vision of the past, in which Zanza was once a human scientist named Klaus. He and Meyneth performed an experiment that attempted to create a new universe, but accidentally destroyed their universe and caused the two of them to become gods. They then created the universe of Bionis and Mechonis. Needing a physical host, but unwilling to risk their departure for other worlds, Zanza initiated a cycle of destruction and rebirth to keep life on Bionis, creating beings from the ether and destroying them with the Telethia when they threatened to leave. Alvis reveals that he was originally the administrative computer of the space station where the experiment was performed. Alvis then informs Shulk that their world is expiring, and that Shulk, as its new god, must decide the world's fate. Shulk chooses to recreate the universe as a world without gods, causing a new universe to form."
Now unless I'm missing something here, Alvis only told Shulk that he had the ability as a god to recreate the universe, meaning that Shulk has the ability to manipulate ether. I feel that he should have this ability, but it's not as overpowered as one might think. Shulk can only create and destroy things that are made of ether, so someone like Kirby is not a creature of the Bionis or Mechonis so it's reasonable to believe that he is not composed of ether particles. So Shulk couldn't just instantly kill everyone by changing them into ether. However some of the materials probably could be used that exist in the Xenoblade Universe, like some weapons. Let's also not forget that with the Monado III Shulk hits really hard and has good defenses. So all in all, I feel Shulk is extremely high tier

So yeah <------ Really good

 

[Munomario777]

SPOILER ALERT. XENOBLADE SPOILERS!!!

Spoiler

"After the battle, Alvis appears before Shulk, and shows him a vision of the past, in which Zanza was once a human scientist named Klaus. He and Meyneth performed an experiment that attempted to create a new universe, but accidentally destroyed their universe and caused the two of them to become gods. They then created the universe of Bionis and Mechonis. Needing a physical host, but unwilling to risk their departure for other worlds, Zanza initiated a cycle of destruction and rebirth to keep life on Bionis, creating beings from the ether and destroying them with the Telethia when they threatened to leave. Alvis reveals that he was originally the administrative computer of the space station where the experiment was performed. Alvis then informs Shulk that their world is expiring, and that Shulk, as its new god, must decide the world's fate. Shulk chooses to recreate the universe as a world without gods, causing a new universe to form."
Now unless I'm missing something here, Alvis only told Shulk that he had the ability as a god to recreate the universe, meaning that Shulk has the ability to manipulate ether. I feel that he should have this ability, but it's not as overpowered as one might think. Shulk can only create and destroy things that are made of ether, so someone like Kirby is not a creature of the Bionis or Mechonis so it's reasonable to believe that he is not composed of ether particles. So Shulk couldn't just instantly kill everyone by changing them into ether. However some of the materials probably could be used that exist in the Xenoblade Universe, like some weapons. Let's also not forget that with the Monado III Shulk hits really hard and has good defenses. So all in all, I feel Shulk is extremely high tier

So yeah <------ Really good

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

"At the end of the game it is revealed by Alvis that Shulk has become a third god, and is given the chance to decree the fate of the world. Shulk decides that the world should be without gods, which allows the planet to be recreated, forming sea with landmasses more reminiscent of Earth. The fallen body of the Bionis can still be seen in the distance from Colony 9's place on the new world, inhabited by all of the beings of Bionis and Mechonis."
Deciding something should be done =/= doing it yourself. The way I see it, Shulk is like a king or an administrator on a computer. During the epilogue, Alvis says, "Tell me your decision, for the future of this world." This seems to mean that Shulk must, for some reason, tell Alvis his decision for it to take effect. I can see no reason for this besides the fact that Shulk is in a position of authority, not one of physical power.

That said, Shulk's adaptability with the Arts and such makes him a viable fighter in this context.

 

[Nerdicon]

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

"At the end of the game it is revealed by Alvis that Shulk has become a third god, and is given the chance to decree the fate of the world. Shulk decides that the world should be without gods, which allows the planet to be recreated, forming sea with landmasses more reminiscent of Earth. The fallen body of the Bionis can still be seen in the distance from Colony 9's place on the new world, inhabited by all of the beings of Bionis and Mechonis."
Deciding something should be done =/= doing it yourself. The way I see it, Shulk is like a king or an administrator on a computer. During the epilogue, Alvis says, "Tell me your decision, for the future of this world." This seems to mean that Shulk must, for some reason, tell Alvis his decision for it to take effect. I can see no reason for this besides the fact that Shulk is in a position of authority, not one of physical power.

That said, Shulk's adaptability with the Arts and such makes him a viable fighter in this context.

Spoiler

So from what I understand, you're saying that the only reason Shulk was able to reset the world was that the world was already falling apart, and that he had enough influence to use the ether that remained to recreate the world from the ruin it was in? In that case it seems like Shulk could work with more unstable materials or pure ether, which wouldn't be easy to come by.

 

[Munomario777]

Spoiler

So from what I understand, you're saying that the only reason Shulk was able to reset the world was that the world was already falling apart, and that he had enough influence to use the ether that remained to recreate the world from the ruin it was in? In that case it seems like Shulk could work with more unstable materials or pure ether, which wouldn't be easy to come by.

Spoiler

No, I'm saying that the only reason that Shulk was able to get the world reset was because Alvis was there to obey his wishes and reset the world the way Shulk wished. Again, it's like he's the administrator account on a computer that has the power to reset the universe; he can click the "reset" button (or in this case telling Alvis to reset the world), but he doesn't have the physical ability to do it himself.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

Spoiler

No, I'm saying that the only reason that Shulk was able to get the world reset was because Alvis was there to obey his wishes and reset the world the way Shulk wished. Again, it's like he's the administrator account on a computer that has the power to reset the universe; he can click the "reset" button (or in this case telling Alvis to reset the world), but he doesn't have the physical ability to do it himself.

Spoiler

Alvis IS the Monado though, so it's still Shulk weilding the Monado. Also, we can assume from Shulk having visions in Smash that the Monado's powers concerning the ether still work.

 

[Munomario777]

Spoiler

Alvis IS the Monado though, so it's still Shulk weilding the Monado. Also, we can assume from Shulk having visions in Smash that the Monado's powers concerning the ether still work.

Spoiler

Alvis refers to the Monado in the third person ("the Monado"), is seen holding the Monado, and the only thing Alvis says on the matter is "I am Monado", as opposed to "I am the Monado". What he means by this is that "[he] is Monado, because Monado is actually the system that was used during Zanza's experiment (Alvis is another name for the experiment)." Source

 

[Meta_Ridley]

Spoiler

Alvis refers to the Monado in the third person ("the Monado"), is seen holding the Monado, and the only thing Alvis says on the matter is "I am Monado", as opposed to "I am the Monado". What he means by this is that "[he] is Monado, because Monado is actually the system that was used during Zanza's experiment (Alvis is another name for the experiment)." Source

Eh, I'm not familiar enough with Xenoblade to argue against that :U That argument makes sense.

My second point still stands though, that Shulk's ether powers work.

 

[Braydon]

Except he can be killed in-game by any enemy.
Ganon's only getting the Triforce of Power, since that's his piece of the Triforce (the Triforce of Wisdom is Zelda's and Courage is Link's).
"Goddess of Order" isn't something I could find documentation of Ike killing in the plot (and even if he did, what I said for Robin still applies).
Olimar has unrivaled Pikmin abilities, but he's not top tier. Being unrivaled in an area doesn't mean you're the best at everything; it would be helpful if you could provide some examples of Mewtwo using psychic abilities in a way that would earn him this spot.
I don't think Meta Knight has ever been shown to travel at Mach 10, let alone the speed of light. He can also be killed in the same amount of hits as Kirby in Kirby's Return to Dream Land, in which he is a playable character.
Star power is extremely powerful, though. Black holes, stars exceeding temperatures of 100 billion degrees Fahrenheit. Plus, she has a protective shield and such.

Does not ever die in fire emblem, and that's just silly to say. I haven't played Xenoblade but I'm pretty sure shulk can die in it if you screw up. That's not a part of the story it's a game over condition.
Doesn't really change that he possesses the pure essence of power.
It's in the end of Radiant dawn, not path of radiance. He kills Ashera goddess of order with the help of Yune the goddess of chaos.
Mewtwo can turn mountains to dust if he wants, he's essentially a demigod.
He can travel at mach speed, it's never been specified how fast, but unlike sonic he can fly in space, and is way more powerful. Sonic is limited to ramming things very fast, Metaknight is the ultimate swordsman.
Doesn't get to count star power or the hub, that's like letting metaknight count the halberd. Anyway even with all the star power bowser somehow managed to steal it, and mario had to recover it.

 

[Munomario777]

Does not ever die in fire emblem, and that's just silly to say. I haven't played Xenoblade but I'm pretty sure shulk can die in it if you screw up. That's not a part of the story it's a game over condition.
Doesn't really change that he possesses the pure essence of power.
It's in the end of Radiant dawn, not path of radiance. He kills Ashera goddess of order with the help of Yune the goddess of chaos.
Mewtwo can turn mountains to dust if he wants, he's essentially a demigod.
He can travel at mach speed, it's never been specified how fast, but unlike sonic he can fly in space, and is way more powerful. Sonic is limited to ramming things very fast, Metaknight is the ultimate swordsman.
Doesn't get to count star power or the hub, that's like letting metaknight count the halberd. Anyway even with all the star power bowser somehow managed to steal it, and mario had to recover it.

Oh, so game over situations don't count? In that case, nearly every protagonist here is unbeatable. If the character can die in gameplay, they can die here.
Very true, but he's still defeatable.
Key words being "with the help of". Allies aren't allowed here.
Source please?

^ That would be Sonic flying in space. Sonic isn't limited to ramming things very fast (even though that is still a very good option for him, seeing as how he can travel at the speed of light).
The character in Smash is called "Rosalina and Luma". Lumas turn into stars. The character in Smash isn't called "Meta Knight and Halberd". There's a difference.

 

[Nerdicon]

#1
He's the vessel of a dark god, that is invincible to everything but itself, and can only be killed by robin.
#2
He becomes a god in many zelda games through the power of the triforce.
#3
He killed the goddess of order.
#4
He possesses unrivaled psychic power.
#5
Metaknight not only has speed to rival sonic but is the most skilled swordsman, and can fly, through space. About the worst thing that has ever befallen metaknight is to have his mask crack at which point he flies away.




is a wimp, who has absolutely no power at all without using star power.

And yet he can be felled by the simplest of foot soldiers
Does not have the full triforce and god =/= most powerful...Ganon's really good though
In technical use of the word, he's rivaled by this guy. Not to mention Mewtwo gets only a few uses of each move, and he can't put a dent in Ganon, Samus, or Kirby
Can only fly as fast as the warp star can move (and the speed of that thing is waaaaay too inconsistent) but he can teleport at will which is more or less light speed, not to mention OP sword beams.
Again god-slayer =/= most powerful
Is Rosalina and Luma, and go read my wall of text about why she's high tier.

EDIT: What am I talking about, Mewtwo destroys Samus

 

[Spazzy_D]

...
Did you even read the post I just made?

Spoiler

The Monado 3 is created through Shulk's own power though. He has the power to control the fabric of reality without Alvis' help (well, kind of, as Alvis IS Monado.)

 

[Munomario777]

The Monado 3 is created through Shulk's own power though. He has the power to control the fabric of reality without Alvis' help (well, kind of, as Alvis IS Monado.)

Spoiler

"The Monado III, also known as Shulk's Monado or the True Monado, is a weapon in Xenoblade Chronicles. Shulk obtains the Monado III after defeating the second form of Zanza, when beings from Bionis and Mechonis unite their power."
-Xenoblade Wiki
Also, creating a sword =/= controlling the fabric of reality.
As for Alvis, see my previous posts on the subject.

 

[Braydon]

Oh, so game over situations don't count? In that case, nearly every protagonist here is unbeatable. If the character can die in gameplay, they can die here.
Very true, but he's still defeatable.
Key words being "with the help of". Allies aren't allowed here.
Source please?

^ That would be Sonic flying in space. Sonic isn't limited to ramming things very fast (even though that is still a very good option for him, seeing as how he can travel at the speed of light).
The character in Smash is called "Rosalina and Luma". Lumas turn into stars. The character in Smash isn't called "Meta Knight and Halberd". There's a difference.

Game over situations do not count, unless the character is supposed to be mortal in the story. As far as the story is concerned robin is a part of a god.
Thus he is second.
Ike kills ashera, yune is only important for the killing blow, as ashera will regenerate unless she is killed by godly powers. Also blesses ike with her power, Ike still kills ashera.
Comes from in game descriptions.
Meta knight can fly through space unaided sonic needs to be powered up.
Before turning into stars, lumas are inert and harmless. It's also worth noting that turning into a star kills a luma.

 

[Munomario777]

Game over situations do not count, unless the character is supposed to be mortal in the story. As far as the story is concerned robin is a part of a god.
Thus he is second.
Ike kills ashera, yune is only important for the killing blow, as ashera will regenerate unless she is killed by godly powers. Also blesses ike with her power, Ike still kills ashera.
Comes from in game descriptions.
Meta knight can fly through space unaided sonic needs to be powered up.
Before turning into stars, lumas are inert and harmless. It's also worth noting that turning into a star kills a luma.

Gameplay and story are deeply intertwined. What you do in gameplay affects the story, whether that be by stopping it (game over situation) or affecting it (choose your own path games as well as FE where losing a teammate in gameplay pulls them out of the story). In cutscenes, Mario is never shown getting small, but in gameplay, that happens all the time. Game over situations count; otherwise over 50% of the cast is invincible.
Debatable.
So in other words, Ike was incapable of killing the god himself so he got another god (an ally) to give him her powers and deliver the final blow?
Such as?
And that matters because...?
Before Meta Knight swings his sword at high speed, it won't kill anyone. Why does it matter what Lumas are like before they become deadly? The transformation is relatively fast, after all. As for killing the Luma, according to Palutena, "Lumas will sacrifice everything to protect Rosalina." (This is also shown in Galaxy, when Lumas turn into planets and such to aid Mario's quest, which in turn helps Rosalina.)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

In technical use of the word, he's rivaled by this guy. Not to mention Mewtwo gets only a few uses of each move, and he can't put a dent in Ganon, Samus, or Kirby

PP are a game mechanic, there's no limit to the number of times he can use a move. PP are put in just so you can't win every battle without difficulty. But that's just what Mewtwo is. It could stomp most of its opponents. would've lose to Mewtwo, but those would be good fights.

 

[Munomario777]

PP are a game mechanic, there's no limit to the number of times he can use a move. PP are put in just so you can't win every battle without difficulty. But that's just what Mewtwo is. It could stomp most of its opponents. would've lose to Mewtwo, but those would be good fights.

Game mechanic =/= non-canon. That's like saying that Mario's power-ups are non-canon because they're only a gameplay mechanic.

 

[Braydon]

Gameplay and story are deeply intertwined. What you do in gameplay affects the story, whether that be by stopping it (game over situation) or affecting it (choose your own path games as well as FE where losing a teammate in gameplay pulls them out of the story). In cutscenes, Mario is never shown getting small, but in gameplay, that happens all the time. Game over situations count; otherwise over 50% of the cast is invincible.
Debatable.
So in other words, Ike was incapable of killing the god himself so he got another god (an ally) to give him her powers and deliver the final blow?
Such as?
And that matters because...?
Before Meta Knight swings his sword at high speed, it won't kill anyone. Why does it matter what Lumas are like before they become deadly? The transformation is relatively fast, after all. As for killing the Luma, according to Palutena, "Lumas will sacrifice everything to protect Rosalina." (This is also shown in Galaxy, when Lumas turn into planets and such to aid Mario's quest, which in turn helps Rosalina.)

Most game over situations are because a character died that isn't supposed to die in the story, but robin is not supposed to be able to die in the story. Ike doesn't die in the story but he's a mortal. The story says robin is part of the evil god who cannot die because he is the only thing powerful enough to kill himself.
Fine, maybe luma brings her up to 5th then, it's worth noting the star transformation couldn't hurt ganon, mewtwo, or robin, or metaknight, as they all posses enough power to escape it. Mewtwo and metaknight being able to teleport, ganon possessing ultimate power.

 

[Munomario777]

Most game over situations are because a character died that isn't supposed to die in the story, but robin is not supposed to be able to die in the story. Ike doesn't die in the story but he's a mortal. The story says robin is part of the evil god who cannot die because he is the only thing powerful enough to kill himself.
Fine, maybe luma brings her up to 5th then, it's worth noting the star transformation couldn't hurt ganon, mewtwo, or robin, or metaknight, as they all posses enough power to escape it. Mewtwo and metaknight being able to teleport, ganon possessing ultimate power.

If he wasn't supposed to be able to die, he wouldn't have an HP meter. Again, Mario can die in his games, but that's not an event in the story. If we don't count game over situations, this discussion will result in a 30+ way tie because no one is able to be killed. Also, I haven't found a source for Robin being part of an evil, immortal god; it would be helpful if you could provide one.
Very true, except for Robin (see above).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Game mechanic =/= non-canon. That's like saying that Mario's power-ups are non-canon because they're only a gameplay mechanic.

How are Mario's power-ups a game mechanic? Game mechanics are the rules of a video game. Power-ups aren't rules, they're powers a character could use.

 

[Munomario777]

How are Mario's power-ups a game mechanic? Game mechanics are the rules of a video game. Power-ups aren't rules, they're powers a character could use.

"Game mechanics are constructs of rules or methods designed for interaction with the game state, thus providing gameplay. All games use mechanics; however, theories and styles differ as to their ultimate importance to the game."
Mario's power-ups are a game mechanic in that they are "methods designed for interaction with the game state" and they "[provide] gameplay."

 

[Nerdicon]

If he wasn't supposed to be able to die, he wouldn't have an HP meter. Again, Mario can die in his games, but that's not an event in the story. If we don't count game over situations, this discussion will result in a 30+ way tie because no one is able to be killed. Also, I haven't found a source for Robin being part of an evil, immortal god; it would be helpful if you could provide one.
Very true, except for Robin (see above).

Grima you're welcome

 

[Kirby Dragons]

"Game mechanics are constructs of rules or methods designed for interaction with the game state, thus providing gameplay. All games use mechanics; however, theories and styles differ as to their ultimate importance to the game."
Mario's power-ups are a game mechanic in that they are "methods designed for interaction with the game state" and they "[provide] gameplay."

Power-ups don't provide gameplay, they support it. Power-ups are something you use, and they give you the power to get the job done easier.
Health bars provide gameplay, however. They tell you how much damage you can take. If PP is allowed, then so are health systems, and Mario would be a lot lower, dying in two hits.

 

[Nerdicon]

How are Mario's power-ups a game mechanic? Game mechanics are the rules of a video game. Power-ups aren't rules, they're powers a character could use.

Not to mention in both the games and the anime you can find evidence of moves running out of power points. So a rule of the Pokemon universe =/= just a game mechanic

 

[Nerdicon]

Power-ups don't provide gameplay, they support it. Power-ups are something you use, and they give you the power to get the job done easier.
Health bars provide gameplay, however. They tell you how much damage you can take. If PP is allowed, then so are health systems, and Mario would be a lot lower, dying in two hits.

Actually, several incarnations of Mario can take more than two hits. Using the platforming continuity, Mario's highest health is 8 and the most damage that can be done to it is 4. If using a "composite" Mario of sorts, he can have health in the hundreds (Mario and Luigi). So yes game mechanics if they are clearly a part of how the game functions should be taken into consideration.

 

[Nerdicon]

PP are a game mechanic, there's no limit to the number of times he can use a move. PP are put in just so you can't win every battle without difficulty. But that's just what Mewtwo is. It could stomp most of its opponents. would've lose to Mewtwo, but those would be good fights.

Mewtwo literally can't harm ganon, Kirby's general marshmallow-ness makes him resistant to just being psychic-ed into mush and then he can just use Mirror to defeat Mewtwo, but yeah I agree on Samus