Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[SleuthMechanism]

True, the trainer's are kind of marysues/garystus that way but really only the recent games have had that particular trend.(whilst for example kyogre and groudon clearly do not wish to go willingly) but based on the pokemon trainer on smash he's specifically based on red and/or whatever one would call the fr/lg protagonist who had no "destiny" bs and was simply just a badass kid who beat down a evil organization, became champion, and(if basing this on the red that later shows up in G/S/C) then goes off to train in the mountains.though honestly i think it'd be simpler if we just left the pokemon trainer with his smash bros roster or just included his trio of mons as seperate characters on the list since this is a thread about characters that specifically appear in smash bros so it just seems to be more in the sprit of things to use that(since who do we focus on more in the game? the trainer or charizard, squirtle, and ivysuar?). either that or exclude him as untouchable since arceus alone=manipulation of matter itself it also renders the actual pokemon that appear in smash bros completely moot since he could have lucario, pikachu, and mewtwo himself anyway.

 

[Golden Sun]

True, the trainer's are kind of marysues/garystus that way but really only the recent games have had that particular trend.(whilst for example kyogre and groudon clearly do not wish to go willingly) but based on the pokemon trainer on smash he's specifically based on red and/or whatever one would call the fr/lg protagonist who had no "destiny" bs and was simply just a badass kid who beat down a evil organization, became champion, and(if basing this on the red that later shows up in G/S/C) then goes off to train in the mountains.though honestly i think it'd be simpler if we just left the pokemon trainer with his smash bros roster or just included his trio of mons as seperate characters on the list since this is a thread about characters that specifically appear in smash bros so it just seems to be more in the sprit of things to use that(since who do we focus on more in the game? the trainer or charizard, squirtle, and ivysuar?). either that or exclude him as untouchable since arceus alone=manipulation of matter itself it also renders the actual pokemon that appear in smash bros completely moot since he could have lucario, pikachu, and mewtwo himself anyway.

Trainer with:
Arceus(can control time, space, worlds, warpholes, black holes)
Mewtwo(can control things using its outrageously strong psychic abilities)
Primal Rayquaza(can control the weather)
Yveltal(can take life away)
Giratina(can manipulate worlds)
Dialga(can stop time)

Also, about your avatar, is that brown thing under the nose a mouth?...

 

[Munomario777]

Trainer with:
Arceus(can control time, space, worlds, warpholes, black holes)
Mewtwo(can control things using its outrageously strong psychic abilities)
Primal Rayquaza(can control the weather)
Yveltal(can take life away)
Giratina(can manipulate worlds)
Dialga(can stop time)

Also, about your avatar, is that brown thing under the nose a mouth?...

Well, the thing about the Pokemon Trainer is that he does need to take the Pokeball out of his bag, deploy it, and tell it what to do, which leaves him open for attack for a few seconds at the start of the fight. Granted, not all fighters could hit him during that time, but the fastest contenders could take advantage of this.

As for the avatar, I'm guessing it's either clothing or a beard.

 

[Golden Sun]

Well, the thing about the Pokemon Trainer is that he does need to take the Pokeball out of his bag, deploy it, and tell it what to do, which leaves him open for attack for a few seconds at the start of the fight. Granted, not all fighters could hit him during that time, but the fastest contenders could take advantage of this.

As for the avatar, I'm guessing it's either clothing or a beard.

>Leave the pokemon out for the whole match and don't let them stay in

 

[Munomario777]

>Leave the pokemon out for the whole match and don't let them stay in

The Trainer has to send the Pokemon out at the beginning.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

The Trainer has to send the Pokemon out at the beginning.

A trainer can have a Pokémon follow him or her a la HeartGold/SoulSilver or like Ash's Pikachu. These Pokémon are immediately in the battle and don't have to be sent out.

So, the trainer could have one Pokémon out who can provide cover while the other Pokémon are being sent out.

 

[Munomario777]

A trainer can have a Pokémon follow him or her a la HeartGold/SoulSilver or like Ash's Pikachu. These Pokémon are immediately in the battle and don't have to be sent out.

So, the trainer could have one Pokémon out who can provide cover while the other Pokémon are being sent out.

Fair enough. The point still stands that the Trainer has to take the time to give his Pokemon orders, though.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

Fair enough. The point still stands that the Trainer has to take the time to give his Pokemon orders, though.

Wild Pokemon manage to do just fine. While Pokemon almost always wait for their trainer's orders, there are certainly examples of Pokemon attacking without their trainer (as is the case when Pokemon disobey due to a lack of gym badges, or the aforementioned wild Pokemon).

Certainly, some Pokemon may not choose the best strategy when going without orders, but legendary Pokemon are generally very intelligent and will most definitely move to protect their trainer from being attacked, if that does happen. With the introduction of Pokemon-Amie in the 6th generation, the bonds between trainer and Pokemon have more impact, to the point of Pokemon scoring Critical Hits or somehow clinging to 1 HP purely due to the love they share with their trainer. Similarly, Pokemon Origins emphasized a Pokemon trainer needing to be synchronized with their Pokemon. Add on the literal telepathy/lesser psychic connections of most of the legendaries, and giving orders likely wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[Munomario777]

Wild Pokemon manage to do just fine. While Pokemon almost always wait for their trainer's orders, there are certainly examples of Pokemon attacking without their trainer (as is the case when Pokemon disobey due to a lack of gym badges, or the aforementioned wild Pokemon).

You don't see soldiers in an army acting without their general's command. A Trainer's Pokemon aren't wild, and they wouldn't disobey due to a lack of gym badges (we're assuming best conditions for each character, so there would be no lack to begin with).

Certainly, some Pokemon may not choose the best strategy when going without orders, but legendary Pokemon are generally very intelligent and will most definitely move to protect their trainer from being attacked, if that does happen. With the introduction of Pokemon-Amie in the 6th generation, the bonds between trainer and Pokemon have more impact, to the point of Pokemon scoring Critical Hits or somehow clinging to 1 HP purely due to the love they share with their trainer. Similarly, Pokemon Origins emphasized a Pokemon trainer needing to be synchronized with their Pokemon. Add on the literal telepathy/lesser psychic connections of most of the legendaries, and giving orders likely wouldn't be an issue at all.

In the games, Pokemon don't act on their own if they're owned by a Trainer (even if it's a Legendary Pokemon/an intelligent Pokemon and is told to do nothing and get hit by a powerful attack). They trust their Trainer that much. Your point on the bonds between Pokemon and Trainer only prove my point. If they have that much of a bond, the Pokemon will trust the Trainer and only act under the Trainer's orders. What do you mean by "synchronized"? I assume you mean synchronized as in working together, which, again, means that the Pokemon wouldn't act without the Trainer's consent. As for the telepathy, the Trainer still has to think the orders, which, unless the Trainer has a supercomputer for a brain or something, isn't really that much faster than talking (you still have to process each word individually). It would be useful if, say, there's duct tape on the Trainer's mouth, or for giving secret orders, however.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Trainer with:
Arceus(can control time, space, worlds, warpholes, black holes)
Mewtwo(can control things using its outrageously strong psychic abilities)
Primal Rayquaza(can control the weather)
Yveltal(can take life away)
Giratina(can manipulate worlds)
Dialga(can stop time)

Also, about your avatar, is that brown thing under the nose a mouth?...

it's a faceplate presumably though it could also be interpreted as a twisted mechanical jaw.

 

[Warlock*G]

Here's some food for thought:

Captain Falcon once crossed the street whilst having a massive erection.

There were no survivors.

 

[Crystanium]

It's been some time. About the spike issue with Samus, there are different types of spikes with different types of materials. Some are sharper than others, so they would deliver more pressure. Sonic's hair could stiffen, but I doubt it would reach the level of sharpness and hardness to that of a metal spike of alien origin.

Aside from that, Samus' Morph Ball is 104.886877828054294 cm. tall and 6.018099547511316 cm. thick. The Morph Ball is actually wider than it is taller in Metroid Prime. Each hemisphere alone is 57.601809954751124 cm. long, though they're both the same height as 104.886877828054294 cm. The volume of a hollow hemisphere is 2/3 * pi (R^3 - r^3). So, to figure out the inner radius of the hemisphere, I'll just take 57.601809954751124 cm. and subtract it by 6.018099547511316 cm., giving me 51.583710407239808 cm.

V = 2/3 * pi * (28.800904977375562 cm^3 - 3.009049773755658 cm^3)
V = 49,978.296618299385640148 cm^3

Assuming the density of Samus' armor is 3 g/cm^3, since Samus sinks in magma, which would be denser than a human, the mass of Samus' armor alone would be 149.93 kg. Adding Samus' own mass of 90 kg. gives us 239.93 kg. (528.97 lb.). Using the low, low-end of Mach 1.2, getting hit by Samus would feel as though you were hit by 11.1 tons.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^My brain just imploded from all that math X_x

 

[Meta_Ridley]

^My brain just imploded from all that math X_x

It wouldn't look nearly as complicated if he had just rounded the numbers instead of having like 15 decimals :U I understand why he did it, for the sake of honesty and all. If the rounded numbers were the ones being plugged into the calculator, he would've gotten drastically different results.

It's been some time. About the spike issue with Samus, there are different types of spikes with different types of materials. Some are sharper than others, so they would deliver more pressure. Sonic's hair could stiffen, but I doubt it would reach the level of sharpness and hardness to that of a metal spike of alien origin.

Aside from that, Samus' Morph Ball is 104.886877828054294 cm. tall and 6.018099547511316 cm. thick. The Morph Ball is actually wider than it is taller in Metroid Prime. Each hemisphere alone is 57.601809954751124 cm. long, though they're both the same height as 104.886877828054294 cm. The volume of a hollow hemisphere is 2/3 * pi (R^3 - r^3). So, to figure out the inner radius of the hemisphere, I'll just take 57.601809954751124 cm. and subtract it by 6.018099547511316 cm., giving me 51.583710407239808 cm.

V = 2/3 * pi * (28.800904977375562 cm^3 - 3.009049773755658 cm^3)
V = 49,978.296618299385640148 cm^3

Assuming the density of Samus' armor is 3 g/cm^3, since Samus sinks in magma, which would be denser than a human, the mass of Samus' armor alone would be 149.93 kg. Adding Samus' own mass of 90 kg. gives us 239.93 kg. (528.97 lb.). Using the low, low-end of Mach 1.2, getting hit by Samus would feel as though you were hit by 11.1 tons.

Ah okay, so you got the volume of the Morph Ball so you could have an easy shape to calculate density. Very nice. Wouldn't the calculated density (149.93 kg) be of Samus AND the suit? I mean, for the sake of simplicity we'll assume a uniform distribution of mass inside the Morph Ball. A non-uniform distribution of mass would affect the density, right? Maybe it wouldn't. I haven't had physics in years :X

Either way, video game physics are kinda bonkers, we've concluded that before. I was actually going to write up a post arguing that the speed of light isn't nearly as fast in video game universes as it is in ours.

 

[kirby_queen]

It's Kirby

 

[Munomario777]

It's been some time. About the spike issue with Samus, there are different types of spikes with different types of materials. Some are sharper than others, so they would deliver more pressure. Sonic's hair could stiffen, but I doubt it would reach the level of sharpness and hardness to that of a metal spike of alien origin.

You're forgetting the fact that Sonic, in his spinnball form, has torn through entire battleships without even reaching the speed of sound. You mentioned some of the spikes that have damaged Samus's being described as tearing through iron, steel, etc. So can Sonic's spikes. Not to mention the countless solid steel robots he can destroy when he's just charging up his Spin Dash, with zero velocity applied.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I wonder if I should get Xenoblade. Sounds like a good game. But first I have to play Fire Emblem Awakening. That game has really spoken to me.

Yes. You need to get Fire Emblem Awakening asap. It's my favorite game in the series, but just fyi it's slightly different than some of the previous games. And for your own sake, assuming you don't suck at FE, don't use reeking boxes or DLC to grind until the post-game or you'll ruin the challenge.

And I'm actually playing Xenoblade right now (that's why I'm no longer actively posting), and it's AWESOME. If you like action rpgs you should get it. Fun action, great story (so far). Just be warned it throughs a lot of info and tutorials at you without the totally explaining it.

I also want to adress Ganondorfs invincibility a bit. I feel like it is a bit overrated. I do think he is invulnerable against the large potion of the cast because of in game statement and it is proven in gameplay and cutscenes.
(I will list them out later) However, that's because he holds a godly protection in him so anyone with holy powers(meaning blessed by the gods in some way), should be able to counter him(Ike, Palutena, Lucina ect..). It doesnt have to be specially designed to kill him.

Yes, we agreed to that several pages back, that any light magic/blessed/weapon/god characters can kill him.

However, everyone thinks Ganondorf has only his defense going for him. I think he is still a top tier up there with Sonic, Palutena? and Samus(who are quite the monsters themselves but I am sure Ganon can atleast tie with them with full potential) and only trumped by Shulk and possibly Pokemon trainer. People underrate him because he lost to Link more times than he has won but honsetly thats only because of plot(Not to mention help from others, the sages+Zelda in OOT, Zelda+the King in WW and Midna+Zelda+the light spirits against Ganon alone). If we look at what he can do, he should be able to stomp Link if he goes all out but he never uses his full arsenal for some reason. He is clearly more powerful than Link.

Also, regarding the final battle in OoT, I'm pretty sure that you actually could use other weapons (at least the hammer and bombs) to harm his tail, it's just only the master sword could finish him.

And you're list was long but I don't believe you listed his ability to temporarily become intangible or invisible. (I'm not saying either or, he can do both).

The big-name legendaries have been sort of reduced to "The embodiment of death wants to be your friend! You can't progress in the game unless you capture it!"

Pokémon Trainer's the quintessential protagonist, whose pure heart and champion spirit not only enable him or her to catch these legendaries but actually influence the legendaries to the point where they want to be a part of the Pokémon Trainer's team.

Also, capturing a pokemon is stated to weaken it's power, so they aren't the same diety like beings they would be in the wild. How you manage to capture such almighty creatures is a separate issue.

 

[Nerdicon]

Also, capturing a pokemon is stated to weaken it's power, so they aren't the same diety like beings they would be in the wild. How you manage to capture such almighty creatures is a separate issue.

Have we come to an agreement on the Pokemon Trainer? Can he use whatever he wants or just the three from Brawl? Either way he loses to just about everyone because he needs to send out the Pokemon

 

[Munomario777]

Have we come to an agreement on the Pokemon Trainer? Can he use whatever he wants or just the three from Brawl? Either way he loses to just about everyone because he needs to send out the Pokemon

I'm voting for the three he has in Brawl, since, as has been brought up before, that IS the character, and having any Pokemon he wants would really stray from that.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

I'm voting for the three he has in Brawl, since, as has been brought up before, that IS the character, and having any Pokemon he wants would really stray from that.

SOMEBODY had to catch the Pokémon that come from Pokéballs.... Also, @ Nerdicon a trainer can have one Pokémon follow him outside of a Pokéball, as seen in HeartGold/SoulSilver and Pokémon Yellow.

We could always have two separate categories, one for Squirtle/Ivy/Char and one for whatever team he wants (though perhaps we should limit it to one legendary due to one Masterball per game?).

Btw, @ ShadowLBlue where is it said that Pokémon are weakened when caught? Sounds interesting, I don't think I've heard of that before.

(I think my main goal in the thread is to level the playing field as much as possible for the top-tiers, makes discussions more fun)

 

[Munomario777]

SOMEBODY had to catch the Pokémon that come from Pokéballs....

I'm assuming that the Smash management/Master Hand/Smash mansion owners/whatever caught them.

We could always have two separate categories, one for Squirtle/Ivy/Char and one for whatever team he wants (though perhaps we should limit it to one legendary due to one Masterball per game?).

That's what I suggested a while back, as well as a "composite" Link (all incarnations in one) and Twilight Princess Link being separate.

(I think my main goal in the thread is to level the playing field as much as possible for the top-tiers, makes discussions more fun)

An admirable cause, my friend.

 

[Nerdicon]

It's Kirby

It's a little more complicated than that, but I kinda maybe agree.
I've noticed while doing research on this topic that plenty of characters may have a lot going for them but have one or two glaring weaknesses

Literally destroyed by anyone who can stall him or crush him. Not incredibly intelligent
Spikes and or lava
Defeated by anyone who can manipulate dimensions
Not too bright, easily manipulated
Overly chivalrous, pretty small
A little too overconfident, clueless about most of their enemies
Over-reliant on her subjects to fight for her, just not that powerful in general
Holy weaponry kills him, not instantly though
Limited use of his attacks, extremely overconfident
Limited use of his attacks, not the most physically able person in the world
Vulnerable to internal attack
Strong attacks are pretty slow

So certain characters with specific skills can defeat these characters

Loses to because stalling
Loses to because of spikes, because of lava, and just outplay him
Pretty much just , are toss-ups
Loses to...well...No one has a fantastic match-up, it's kind of a toss-up
Loses to
etc, I'm getting lazy

 

[Munomario777]

Loses to because stalling

I agree that Kirby could stall Sonic out of his Super Sonic form... if Sonic actually let him transform into Stone/Leaf/etc. in the first place and didn't use his super speed/time freezing to knock him out before he absorbed the power. Even then, Kirby would have to knock Sonic out after stalling for eleven days in order to win, and Sonic has quite a few other transformations that can't simply be waited out (such as Darkspine Sonic and Excalibur Sonic), in addition to his natural abilities. As for Ganondorf, what method would he use to stall? If you're referring to his immunity to any non-holy weapons, you pointed out yourself that Sonic has Caliburn/Excalibur, and I pointed out that Sonic has the Chaos Emeralds (and the Master Emerald/Super Emeralds (Chaos Emeralds empowered by the Master Emerald), if we're willing to go that far), which are linked to the gods of Sonic's world. If you mean something else, please elaborate.

 

[kirby_queen]

What if we take into consideration that Ball Power is an ability Kirby has mastered and doesn't need to be inhaled. (As indicated by HAL staff in the Kirby Dream Collection Anniversary booklet). He can get smacked but just bounce around and back. (Ala Canvas Cruse and Rainbow Curse, etc) Kirby is also able to implode like a nuke with bomb power and swallow his opponents.

He is insanely powerful but he is a baby and would be more interested in eating and sleeping than fighting any of these guys, anyway.

 

[Nerdicon]

I agree that Kirby could stall Sonic out of his Super Sonic form... if Sonic actually let him transform into Stone/Leaf/etc. in the first place and didn't use his super speed/time freezing to knock him out before he absorbed the power. Even then, Kirby would have to knock Sonic out after stalling for eleven days in order to win, and Sonic has quite a few other transformations that can't simply be waited out (such as Darkspine Sonic and Excalibur Sonic), in addition to his natural abilities. As for Ganondorf, what method would he use to stall? If you're referring to his immunity to any non-holy weapons, you pointed out yourself that Sonic has Caliburn/Excalibur, and I pointed out that Sonic has the Chaos Emeralds (and the Master Emerald/Super Emeralds (Chaos Emeralds empowered by the Master Emerald), if we're willing to go that far), which are linked to the gods of Sonic's world. If you mean something else, please elaborate.

It's just a bit of Sonic's personality, how would Sonic know that Caliburn/Excalibur was Ganon's only weakness? And it's not like those would kill him right away, Ganon still has time to attack with wide ranged moves. Sonic's really not smart enough to figure out Ganon's weakness before he gets destroyed. Also, the only reason Kirby has to avoid Super Sonic is because without some sort of energy drain, you can cause negligent harm to him, sure Kirby would get smacked a few times before that, but Kirby has insane durability which has been proven on multiple occasions after realizing he couldn't do anything, he would probably just guard until he thought he could win. Plus after Sonic forcibly reverts back to normal, he has no rings so Kirby could just use Crash to finish him off.

 

[the king of murder]

Yes. You need to get Fire Emblem Awakening asap. It's my favorite game in the series, but just fyi it's slightly different than some of the previous games. And for your own sake, assuming you don't suck at FE, don't use reeking boxes or DLC to grind until the post-game or you'll ruin the challenge.

And I'm actually playing Xenoblade right now (that's why I'm no longer actively posting), and it's AWESOME. If you like action rpgs you should get it. Fun action, great story (so far). Just be warned it throughs a lot of info and tutorials at you without the totally explaining it.

Ah, thanks.
I am actually a beginner in FE and I heard most FE games will get insanely difficult if you play it in high difficulty, though, I won't get DLCs anyway because I want to experience the game how it's pure.

Also,even though I want to get Xenoblade, the amount of games Nintendo is going to release this year is just...arrrgh. I can't get them all, my wallet is limited.

Also, regarding the final battle in OoT, I'm pretty sure that you actually could use other weapons (at least the hammer and bombs) to harm his tail, it's just only the master sword could finish him.

You're right, the Megaton Hammer can be used in the first round, when you don't have the Master Sword. That's probably because you need a way to acquire your Master Sword back, as otherwise Ganon would be unbeatable. I mean, in all the other games, other than the MS and the holy arrows you cannot touch him with any weapons. Try hitting Ganon with the Normal Sword, Chain Ball ect.. in TP. It literally just phases through him. (Plus the in game statements about him and all that jazz, though his other weakness is....fishing I guess.)

Other than that, I would really love it if people would look at Ganondorf's other abilities rather than just his defense. The things he can do to his opponent is quite insane(I mean look at the list I posted, those are god like feats) and I would argue that even without his invulnerability(overrated) that he is a top tier. Similar case with Sonic.

And you're list was long but I don't believe you listed his ability to temporarily become intangible or invisible. (I'm not saying either or, he can do both).

Ah yes, he did that in Alttp and the original games, right?

Also I noticed that whenever Ganon/dorf wields a sword, that it is usually a two handed sword(TP,OOT, Demo World, Hyrule Warriors) and he wields it in one hand. He must be Ike's father than. Not to mention OOT and WW Ganon have the same voice actor as Ike' daddy Greil....

Also about Pokemon Trainer, I think he should have access to every Pokemon. The Pokemon are part of his power(because that's how you primarily fight in the Pokemon games) and this thread is about full potential death match, isn't it?

Yes, the trainer in Smash appears to be Red but that's because he is just the most iconic trainer in the franchise, similar how Pikachu is supposed to represent all of the Pokemon. I mean, they had to choose one trainer.

@ Munomario777 In my list, I stated that Ganon can just travel/teleport to another dimension. So he can stall him out of it.

 

[Munomario777]

It's just a bit of Sonic's personality, how would Sonic know that Caliburn/Excalibur was Ganon's only weakness? And it's not like those would kill him right away, Ganon still has time to attack with wide ranged moves. Sonic's really not smart enough to figure out Ganon's weakness before he gets destroyed. Also, the only reason Kirby has to avoid Super Sonic is because without some sort of energy drain, you can cause negligent harm to him, sure Kirby would get smacked a few times before that, but Kirby has insane durability which has been proven on multiple occasions after realizing he couldn't do anything, he would probably just guard until he thought he could win. Plus after Sonic forcibly reverts back to normal, he has no rings so Kirby could just use Crash to finish him off.

It's simple. If Super Sonic doesn't work (which I think it would anyways; if not, Hyper Sonic definitely would, since he's using the Chaos Emeralds + the Master Emerald (AKA the god-created gem)), he'll simply cycle through his arsenal until he finds something that works. He's not too dumb to use trial and error.

As for Kirby, he can die from, what, six hits in Superstar (and I believe less in other games)? Not really "insane durability". Also, Sonic can revert to normal from his Super (and presumably Hyper) form at will via the Wisps, which force him out of the transformation (as shown in Sonic Generations), and he has Shields, temporary invincibility (via the Monitors which provide it in the classic games), extra ten-Ring packs (again, the monitors from the classic games), etc. even if he does run out. Plus, as you said yourself, Kirby is easily manipulated. If he sees Sonic zipping around, he'll likely try to suck Sonic up to get his cool-looking abilities, at which point Sonic could rush behind him and take him out.

 

[Nerdicon]

It's simple. If Super Sonic doesn't work (which I think it would anyways; if not, Hyper Sonic definitely would, since he's using the Chaos Emeralds + the Master Emerald (AKA the god-created gem)), he'll simply cycle through his arsenal until he finds something that works. He's not too dumb to use trial and error.

As for Kirby, he can die from, what, six hits in Superstar (and I believe less in other games)? Not really "insane durability". Also, Sonic can revert to normal from his Super (and presumably Hyper) form at will via the Wisps, which force him out of the transformation (as shown in Sonic Generations), and he has Shields, temporary invincibility (via the Monitors which provide it in the classic games), extra ten-Ring packs (again, the monitors from the classic games), etc. even if he does run out. Plus, as you said yourself, Kirby is easily manipulated. If he sees Sonic zipping around, he'll likely try to suck Sonic up to get his cool-looking abilities, at which point Sonic could rush behind him and take him out.

6 hits in Kirby's Adventure, a health bar in most games, and pretty much impossible to kill in the anime. Conflicting continuity is everywhere. My view is that if thing in the canon contradict each other, go with whatever the stronger option is. The best example for me is Mewtwo, in the games he's just another Pokemon but a strong one. In the anime he's an overpowered psychic with the ability to throw just about anything around like rag dolls along with some of his in-game abilities. In the games he needs a Mega Stone to Mega Evolve, in the anime he just needs to concentrate for a bit. Likewise, in Nightmare in Dreamland Kirby can take 6 hits but in the anime he's (practically) invincible. Well, almost. Kirby would probably give up if he honestly thought he couldn't win, so beat him in to submission and you win.

 

[Munomario777]

6 hits in Kirby's Adventure, a health bar in most games, and pretty much impossible to kill in the anime. Conflicting continuity is everywhere. My view is that if thing in the canon contradict each other, go with whatever the stronger option is. The best example for me is Mewtwo, in the games he's just another Pokemon but a strong one. In the anime he's an overpowered psychic with the ability to throw just about anything around like rag dolls along with some of his in-game abilities. In the games he needs a Mega Stone to Mega Evolve, in the anime he just needs to concentrate for a bit. Likewise, in Nightmare in Dreamland Kirby can take 6 hits but in the anime he's (practically) invincible. Well, almost. Kirby would probably give up if he honestly thought he couldn't win, so beat him in to submission and you win.

Kirby is originally a video game franchise. The anime came after that. I say if the Kirby games and anime conflict, go with the games, since that's the original medium. Otherwise, the Mario movie, Sonic the Comic, Sonic Underground, and everything else is canon.

 

[Nerdicon]

Kirby is originally a video game franchise. The anime came after that. I say if the Kirby games and anime conflict, go with the games, since that's the original medium. Otherwise, the Mario movie, Sonic the Comic, Sonic Underground, and everything else is canon.

The difference is the anime is mentioned (a little bit) by the games, and any small amount of correlation. If anything is acknowledged as canon, than I'll take it. I mean the Pokemon games came out before the anime, and we're taking the Pokemon anime into consideration here too. Honestly, I feel if any source material aside from the games is created, it can be considered in this topic if it is directly or indirectly stated as canon

 

[Munomario777]

The difference is the anime is mentioned (a little bit) by the games, and any small amount of correlation. If anything is acknowledged as canon, than I'll take it. I mean the Pokemon games came out before the anime, and we're taking the Pokemon anime into consideration here too. Honestly, I feel if any source material aside from the games is created, it can be considered in this topic if it is directly or indirectly stated as canon

When is it acknowledged by the games (and for that matter, when is it shown that Kirby is pretty much invincible in the anime anyway)? Also, the difference between the Pokemon anime and the Kirby one is that apparently, the Pokemon anime and the Pokemon games were released in very close proximity to each other, especially in the US (games: Feb 26, 1996 JP/Sep. 28, 1998 US; show: Apr 1, 1997 JP/Sep. 8, 1998 US). On the other hand, Kirby: Right Back At Ya! (I assume that's what you're talking about here) was released about a decade after the original Kirby's Dream Land on Game Boy, AKA the first Kirby game (game: 1992; show: 2001 JP/2002 US), which means that there's not as strong a connection there as there is with Pokemon.

Also, I like to go with positives versus negatives (i.e. Pokemon anime is fine since people are saying Mewtwo can Mega Evolve on his own, while the Kirby anime is saying Kirby can't be hurt) when it comes to things like this. One piece of evidence to the contrary can disprove a statement (Kirby getting hurt in all those games disproves him being invincible, for example).

 

[kirby_queen]

Well unlike other game/movie tie in, Sakurai did work closely with the anime staff and set certain guidelines for the Show. However even taking out the anime, Kirby is quite insane. In fact Kirby is created to be over powered by mere design. His games are entry level platformers. A genre where precision navigation of platforms and enemies is key. In most games like DK, Mario, Megeman, you're not always given the power to simply fly over pitfalls, have a fighting game style health meter/stock, and survive a 1 hit or 2 collision with enemies. It's freaking over powered concept in design. However Kirby games required an overpowered hero so beginners can have an easier time.

Also by game canon Kirby can explode and retain no damage, freeze, set himself on fire, become plasma, be split up to create clones or even throw part of his body at enemies, fly through space on a star meaning at light speeds (also meaning he can visually navigate and keep track of his own distance from objects moving at light speeds), use Ultra abilities (which allows him to summon a and swing a sword as big as a small building, call a phoenix, wield a giant hammer, or swallow enemies immensely bigger than he is).

In his games he never seems to die but indicated by the game over screen he decides to nap instead unless Master Hand wakes him up.

Kirby's greatest enemies don't pose mere worldly threats but COSMIC threat with most of his battles taking place in space or across dimensions.

His greatest weakness is being a baby.

 

[Golden Sun]

It's a little more complicated than that, but I kinda maybe agree.
I've noticed while doing research on this topic that plenty of characters may have a lot going for them but have one or two glaring weaknesses

Literally destroyed by anyone who can stall him or crush him. Not incredibly intelligent
Spikes and or lava
Defeated by anyone who can manipulate dimensions
Not too bright, easily manipulated
Overly chivalrous, pretty small
A little too overconfident, clueless about most of their enemies
Over-reliant on her subjects to fight for her, just not that powerful in general
Holy weaponry kills him, not instantly though
Limited use of his attacks, extremely overconfident
Limited use of his attacks, not the most physically able person in the world
Vulnerable to internal attack
Strong attacks are pretty slow

So certain characters with specific skills can defeat these characters

Loses to because stalling
Loses to because of spikes, because of lava, and just outplay him
Pretty much just , are toss-ups
Loses to...well...No one has a fantastic match-up, it's kind of a toss-up
Loses to
etc, I'm getting lazy

Its said Meta Knight can manipulate space from his dimensional cape, and also let him teleport to any destination that the cape can go to(a limit)(or just a place where if MK thinks the place, then he can go there)
I have to say, Meta Knight is actually a outrageous star warrior, we all know the anime isn't canon, so we don't know his full limit is, I also have to say that MK was probably sand bagging Kirby against the matches and pretending to be defeated so that he can learn Kirby more.

 

[Munomario777]

Well unlike other game/movie tie in, Sakurai did work closely with the anime staff and set certain guidelines for the Show. However even taking out the anime, Kirby is quite insane. In fact Kirby is created to be over powered by mere design. His games are entry level platformers. A genre where precision navigation of platforms and enemies is key. In most games like DK, Mario, Megeman, you're not always given the power to simply fly over pitfalls, have a fighting game style health meter/stock, and survive a 1 hit or 2 collision with enemies. It's freaking over powered concept in design. However Kirby games required an overpowered hero so beginners can have an easier time.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they're the same canon; Sonic Team guided BigRedButtton with Sonic Boom, but that's clearly not the same canon. Same creator =/= same canon (not to mention the fact that Sakurai made Smash, and yet that doesn't seem to fit anywhere in Kirby canon). Mega Man can fly over pitfalls (Rush Adapters, Rush Jet, etc.), has a health bar/lives system, and can survive multiple hits (again, due to the life bar). The difficulty of a game doesn't have an inherent connection with how strong the character is.

Also by game canon Kirby can explode and retain no damage, freeze, set himself on fire, become plasma, be split up to create clones or even throw part of his body at enemies, fly through space on a star meaning at light speeds (also meaning he can visually navigate and keep track of his own distance from objects moving at light speeds), use Ultra abilities (which allows him to summon a and swing a sword as big as a small building, call a phoenix, wield a giant hammer, or swallow enemies immensely bigger than he is).

Link is invulnerable to his own bombs (via use of a certain piece of equipment). Ice Mario can freeze enemies (and throw ice balls), and Fire Mario has pyrokinesis. Sonic has a Wisp power-up for turning into a laser (very similar to plasma in function), and Mario has a Double Cherry to create a clone of himself (which is being overlooked here, by the way). Sonic can fire wind blades at enemies (which is pretty much the same as Cutter, except he doesn't lose his face whilst performing the attack), as well as travelling at light speeds (by the way, a while back, I provided evidence for the Warp Star not going at light speed, but I'd rather not get into that again). The Ultra abilities are the ones that really stand out here, but other characters can do more powerful things anyway. Bottom line is, these powers aren't anything special or unique. They're just par for the course here, really.

In his games he never seems to die but indicated by the game over screen he decides to nap instead unless Master Hand wakes him up.

In that case, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Bowser, Ganondorf, and many other characters are invincible. It was agreed quite a while ago that getting a game over, losing a life, fainting (in Pokemon), or otherwise being defeated/unable to do anything counts as losing here (of course, this only includes the times when it involves damage being taken; failing a task and having to start over, etc. doesn't apply).

Kirby's greatest enemies don't pose mere worldly threats but COSMIC threat with most of his battles taking place in space or across dimensions.

Again, many other characters do things in space/other dimensions. For example:
Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure deal with other dimensions.
Super Mario Galaxy and its sequel are entirely in space.
Star Fox is in space.
The Legend of Zelda has dealt with alternate dimensions multiple times (most notably in A Link to the Past/Between Worlds).

 

[kirby_queen]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they're the same canon; Sonic Team guided BigRedButtton with Sonic Boom, but that's clearly not the same canon. Same creator =/= same canon (not to mention the fact that Sakurai made Smash, and yet that doesn't seem to fit anywhere in Kirby canon). Mega Man can fly over pitfalls (Rush Adapters, Rush Jet, etc.), has a health bar/lives system, and can survive multiple hits (again, due to the life bar). The difficulty of a game doesn't have an inherent connection with how strong the character is.

Link is invulnerable to his own bombs (via use of a certain piece of equipment). Ice Mario can freeze enemies (and throw ice balls), and Fire Mario has pyrokinesis. Sonic has a Wisp power-up for turning into a laser (very similar to plasma in function), and Mario has a Double Cherry to create a clone of himself (which is being overlooked here, by the way). Sonic can fire wind blades at enemies (which is pretty much the same as Cutter, except he doesn't lose his face whilst performing the attack), as well as travelling at light speeds (by the way, a while back, I provided evidence for the Warp Star not going at light speed, but I'd rather not get into that again). The Ultra abilities are the ones that really stand out here, but other characters can do more powerful things anyway. Bottom line is, these powers aren't anything special or unique. They're just par for the course here, really.

In that case, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Bowser, Ganondorf, and many other characters are invincible. It was agreed quite a while ago that getting a game over, losing a life, fainting (in Pokemon), or otherwise being defeated/unable to do anything counts as losing here (of course, this only includes the times when it involves damage being taken; failing a task and having to start over, etc. doesn't apply).

Again, many other characters do things in space/other dimensions. For example:
Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure deal with other dimensions.
Super Mario Galaxy and its sequel are entirely in space.
Star Fox is in space.
The Legend of Zelda has dealt with alternate dimensions multiple times (most notably in A Link to the Past/Between Worlds).

Things like crossing dimensions is out of the ordinary with these other characters though but for Kirby it's just another day. Sonic has his wisps but not the sort of power that Kirby gets from inhaling. Kirby becomes a master of a whole practice when he inhales. He gets multimoves where sonic has it for a split second in Colors. Galaxy takes place in space but most of the Mario franchise is simply in the mushroom protecting that kingdom from Bowser ruling it versus Kirby protecting the entire galaxy over and over again. Links bombs don't hurt him but they're not big bombs. They don't kill everything on screen. They break small blocks and cracks in walls. How does that compare to crash? The mere out of the ordinary that happens a few times in these other franchises are a day in the ordinary for Kirby. Star Fox takes place in space but those guys are just pilots. Their power isn't so much themselves as them being able to pilot ships. So whatever.

 

[Munomario777]

Things like crossing dimensions is out of the ordinary with these other characters though but for Kirby it's just another day. Sonic has his wisps but not the sort of power that Kirby gets from inhaling. Kirby becomes a master of a whole practice when he inhales. He gets multimoves where sonic has it for a split second in Colors. Galaxy takes place in space but most of the Mario franchise is simply in the mushroom protecting that kingdom from Bowser ruling it versus Kirby protecting the entire galaxy over and over again. Links bombs don't hurt him but they're not big bombs. They don't kill everything on screen. They break small blocks and cracks in walls. How does that compare to crash? The mere out of the ordinary that happens a few times in these other franchises are a day in the ordinary for Kirby. Star Fox takes place in space but those guys are just pilots. Their power isn't so much themselves as them being able to pilot ships. So whatever.

Out of curiosity, when does Kirby cross dimensions? In the meantime, I'll list the times Sonic has gone through time/dimensions:
- Any game with a Special Stage (Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic CD, Sonic Advance 1/2/3, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Rush, Sonic 4, Sonic Colors DS, Sonic Lost World 3DS, and more; click the link)
- Sonic CD (time travel)
- Sonic Shuffle (travels to a board game dream world thing)
- Sonic Rush (dimensions are colliding)
- Sonic Rush Adventure (takes place entirely in an alternate dimension)
- Sonic 2006 (time travel)
- Sonic and the Secret Rings (goes inside a storybook universe)
- Sonic and the Black Knight (goes inside a storybook universe)
- Sonic Generations (time travel)
- Probably something else I'm forgetting
Right, the Wisps don't give Sonic the range of abilities the Copy Abilities do. That's because Sonic already has that kind of variety. Sonic already is a master of a practice; he doesn't need to copy someone else. As for Galaxy, Mario saved the universe twice. While that's not as impressive as saving the universe multiple times, it's still an impressive feat. Fair enough for the bombs, but the Black Bomb Wisp has a pretty large explosion radius, and can crush enemies IIRC. Whether or not it's out of the ordinary doesn't matter; if a character did something once, they can do it again. On the subject of Star Fox, I think we're taking the Arwings into account here.

 

[Nerdicon]

Also, I like to go with positives versus negatives (i.e. Pokemon anime is fine since people are saying Mewtwo can Mega Evolve on his own, while the Kirby anime is saying Kirby can't be hurt) when it comes to things like this. One piece of evidence to the contrary can disprove a statement (Kirby getting hurt in all those games disproves him being invincible, for example).

I said practically, not completely invincible. He can be hurt but he has to be knocked around quite a lot to do any real damage, he was crushed several times by an extremely heavy object and was barely fazed. In some games this would've killed him instantly or done a lot of damage, but not in this instance. I guess I should specify that the Kirby games and anime are of different but correlated canons. I know it sounds like I'm spouting nonsense at this point but hear me out. The Pokémon anime and games are clearly in two different but very similar worlds, and they have minor influences on each other (Pikachu's various promotions, event Pokémon, etc) same with the Kirby universe (one of the more recent designs for Castle Dedede, Galaxia being named and identified, etc). While Nintendo doesn't advertise the Kirby anime and games as correlated, they are objectively correlated about as much as the Pokémon games and anime.

 

[Munomario777]

I said practically, not completely invincible. He can be hurt but he has to be knocked around quite a lot to do any real damage, he was crushed several times by an extremely heavy object and was barely fazed. In some games this would've killed him instantly or done a lot of damage, but not in this instance. I guess I should specify that the Kirby games and anime are of different but correlated canons. I know it sounds like I'm spouting nonsense at this point but hear me out. The Pokémon anime and games are clearly in two different but very similar worlds, and they have minor influences on each other (Pikachu's various promotions, event Pokémon, etc) same with the Kirby universe (one of the more recent designs for Castle Dedede, Galaxia being named and identified, etc). While Nintendo doesn't advertise the Kirby anime and games as correlated, they are objectively correlated about as much as the Pokémon games and anime.

So, what you're saying is that they basically take place in two different universes/canons.

If that's the case, then game Kirby =/= anime Kirby, since Kirby can't be in both of those at once.

I rest my case.

 

[kirby_queen]

Kirby fighting Magolor in Another Demension and going to Halcandra in another Dimension
Metaknight/Kirby Fighting Galacta Knight on Halcandra
Kirby bringing forth Nova from another Dimension
Kirby going into a Painting dimension in Canvas Curse
Kirby going into another dimension in Rainbow Curse
Kirby going into the Mirror World in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror
The Dark matter world of the final bosses in DL2, 3, and AND K64

Most of his other fights take it to the sky or in weird voids in space like Marx and Nightmare.

Sonic hasn't mastered the arts that Kirby can. He gets a limited ability. It's still not comparable. I played Colors and love the game but getting a wisp isn't the same as getting a power as Kirby. It's a one time thing of aiming at something on the screen usually. Where as Kirby can become a multi-move wielding master of the sword, air, flame master, whip wielder, spear skilled, magician, hammer smashing,and MUCH MORE ace of all trades. That's more than a wisp switch up and spin dash. Also you're including time travel and we weren't even talking about that stuff.

 

[Munomario777]

Kirby fighting Magolor in Another Demension and going to Halcandra in another Dimension
Metaknight/Kirby Fighting Galacta Knight on Halcandra
Kirby bringing forth Nova from another Dimension
Kirby going into a Painting dimension in Canvas Curse
Kirby going into another dimension in Rainbow Curse
Kirby going into the Mirror World in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror
The Dark matter world of the final bosses in DL2, 3, and AND K64

Most of his other fights take it to the sky or in weird voids in space like Marx and Nightmare.

So basically, Sonic has gone through dimensions more times than Kirby (the special stages alone are more than enough). Both are impressive feat backlogs, though.

Sonic hasn't mastered the arts that Kirby can. He gets a limited ability. It's still not comparable. I played Colors and love the game but getting a wisp isn't the same as getting a power as Kirby. It's a one time thing of aiming at something on the screen usually. Where as Kirby can become a multi-move wielding master of the sword, air, flame master, whip wielder, spear skilled, magician, hammer smashing,and MUCH MORE ace of all trades. That's more than a wisp switch up and spin dash. Also you're including time travel and we weren't even talking about that stuff.

I'm not saying that the Wisps are comparable to Kirby's Copy Abilities. I'm saying that Sonic's arsenal as a whole is more than comparable to the Copy Abilities. Sonic has a sword (Excalibur/Caliburn from Sonic and the Black Knight). He can send out blades of air, as well as creating tornadoes. Sonic has pyrokinesis in his Darkspine form (from Sonic and the Secret Rings), as well as the Burst Wisp which turns him into a living fireball. The others aren't anything that Sonic's other abilities couldn't more than make up for. As for the whole time travel thing, I'd say that's equally as impressive as (if not more impressive than) inter-dimensional travel (plus, as I said, the Special Stages alone are more than Kirby's dimensional travel record).

Sonic's arsenal is not just a "Wisp switch up and spin dash." I won't go into much detail here (I already did that a while back), but basically, he can move at the speed of light, shred through entire battleships (and that's not even moving at the speed of sound, let alone the speed of light), has superhuman strength, can manipulate wind, sense danger, blast through enemies/obstacles with his face, survive atmospheric reentry, heal himself at will, and more. And that's not even counting his transformations (becoming invincible, flying, moving even faster, becoming even stronger, and more for up to eleven days straight) and power-ups (slowing down/stopping/travelling through time, teleporting, turning into a laser/rocket/black hole/bomb/etc., creating shields, shrinking, levitating, and more). Saying Sonic is just a "Wisp switch up and spin dash" is like saying that Kirby is just an inhale switch up and float.