Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

Fine with me. But Kirby still can't summon MK because Master requires him wielding MK's sword. Loaned items don't count.

Fine by me.

We voted on it, and the majority agreed to give him that team. I don't think we're going to agree on what his 6 best 'mons are, and that would be A LOT of work, so I think it's simpler to just give him Red's team. Also, I liked Bagan's reason.

Alright then.

 

[Brickbuild101]

How would they sit on him? As part of Xenoblade, Shulk gets visions when he or a teammate would take extreme or lethal damage. He would see himself getting sat on and activate Monado Speed to dodge. Pretty simple there.

This gave me a silly, amusing mental image.

 

[Crystanium]

Mario's speed
I haven't been able to figure out Mario's speed, so I'll try to cover a few things. In Super Mario 64, when Mario is going to race Koopa the Quick, he tells Mario he is wearing "Koopa Mach 1 Sprint shoes". One might assume this means that since Mario can outrun Koopa the Quick, he's running faster than sound. Well, unfortunately, this wouldn't prove anything, since the name of something doesn't necessarily make it so. Speed Racer's car is called "Mach 5", but no one thinks it drives that fast. Besides, in Super Mario 64 DS, this was changed to "Supa Koopa Sprint", so even if we took the name of the shoes literally, it's been retconned.

Next, we might look to Mario's ability to run up walls in Super Mario World. The problem is this is not indicative of speed, since the issue wouldn't be about how fast you could run, but how much force you could exert to avoid gravity from pushing you down. We know Mario has strong legs to jump very high, so this should come to no surprise. There are the cannonballs that Mario can dodge and outrun, but how fast are these cannonballs? That might depend on the size and angle. According to Wired, here's a chart.

The green line is with air resistance. We don't have any cannons angled at 45°, so we'd have to work with 40°, which means we're somewhere between 200 and 220 m/s. If we work with 210 m/s, and if Mario can dodge this at a close range of perhaps 0.914 meters, then his reaction time would be 4.35 milliseconds. However, "English cannon, like others, were given names that indicated their sizes. Falcon, saker, demi-culverin, culverin, demi-cannon, cannon and basilisc described calibres from 2-1/2" up to 8-3/4", and weights from 800 lb up to 9000 lb. The middle-of-the-range culverin was 5-1/2" calibre (about a 20pdr), with a range of 460 yards point-blank, and 2650 yards when elevated by 10°. This implies a muzzle velocity of at least 865 fps, or 590 mph", according to this site. That's 263.76 m/s.

Not only do we consistently see Mario able to dodge cannonballs, but we consistently see in these games his ability to outrun them. I would suspect Mario to at least be able to run the speed of sound. If we used the other speed, Mario's reaction time would be 3.47 milliseconds.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, if Ganondorf was fighting Link or Zelda, then none would have the Triforce in that case. I'll work with the idea that no one is receiving star rods or the Triforce to end this.

For the record, I'm fine with Link having the Triforce of Courage, Ganon having Power, and Zelda having Wisdom, if there was any confusion/if anyone was wondering.

I think PT should be able to bring out all his Pokemon at once, but I don't think it would be his character to bring out all his Pokemon if he's fighting one-on-one.

I think that would be a result of standard Pokemon battle rules more than Red's character; after all, that's how everyone does it, not just Red.

Not if life energy is vitality. I suppose it could be understood as ki in that regard, it being "the breath of life itself".

Link has enough heart containers/life energy/vitality/durability/whatever you want to call it to survive a bomb to the face eighty times.

In the same way wearing a ring to enhance his sword damage works. Skin cannot withstand high temperatures. At least at or above 48°C is when skin will be damaged. 60°C can cause second- and third-degree burns. If the defense applied to Link's skin, then Link would be able to withstand 90°C, assuming we should treat it that way. So if Link had up to 500% damage reduction, then he'd only be able to withstand up to 300°C before experiencing second- to third-degree burns, which is well below the temperature produced by the plasma beams in the Metroid Prime trilogy and the power bomb.

In gameplay, Link can get burned by lava eighty times without dying. Clearly he has superhuman durability.

I include game play into lore, as well as other sources that are the original media.

Ah, I see.

Would you apply that to the people of Kakariko Village as well?

No, because they are not fairies (as in, the type caught in a bottle).

"Game mechanic" uses the fewest assumptions and makes more sense than making up other alternatives based on ad hoc hypotheses.

But it also makes no sense in-universe. I prefer something that makes sense in-universe to something that doesn't.

For the same reason Link's bow doesn't get incinerated.

Either Link has some really durable pockets or he uses hammerspace (most likely the latter, because I don't think he could fit the giant Skull Hammer in his pocket).

Because Pokemon trainers are more likely to have six Pokemon than they are to have three and because that's the total you can carry with you in Fire Red/Leaf Green.

Sonic is likely to team up with Tails, but he doesn't here because that is ally assistance. Mario and Luigi are usually teamed up, but they're not here because that is ally assistance. I don't see why the Pokemon Trainer should get additional characters when the others cannot.

Do you think Zelda is wiser than Impa? The Triforce of Wisdom is not granted to her. It's granted to those who have the spirit of the hero, the blood of the goddess, and the incarnation of Demise's hatred. I'm fine with no one getting star rods or the Triforce, though.

I don't see anything indicating Impa being wiser than Zelda (but then again, I haven't played much of the series, so I might be missing something here). Having a certain bloodline might make you more favorable to the Triforce, but if there isn't anyone with that quality, I'd imagine it would go to someone else with that quality.

Because the temperature of magma is the same as that of a power bomb, right?

No, but I'd imagine that if a fairy could get destroyed by one Power Bomb, being submerged in lava eighty times in a row would at least dent the bottle.

The iron boots in TP could probably be quantified in the battle against Argorok. The Japanese name for Argorok is is Awoken Flame Pterosaur: Nardobrear. The Korean translation uses "pterodactyl". Looking up, "How much did a pterosaur weight" on Google and Wikipedia on Pterosaur size says, "The largest of these are estimated to have weighed 250 kilograms (550 lb.)." So we could at least assume for Link, the iron boots weigh more than that, due to its high density. If Link uses iron boots to prevent getting pulled in, he will receive damage. (Ingsmashers can still be pulled in after receiving enough damage.)

I assume you mean that he would take damage because he would be too slow to dodge the darkbursts, and I agree.

The problem, of course, is assuming Link will know what the darkburst is capable of doing. Using Pegasus boots has a start-up time. Then there's sonic boom, which "distorts time and space" according to Mark Pacini who worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy. Its purpose was created around the final battle against Dark Samus, who is capable of reforming short of atomic disruption. We've been through this, of course.

I'd say Link would catch on to the darkburst's suction attributes when it starts sucking in dark particles and the air around him. The Bunny Hood and Pegasus Seeds can be used instantly, so that should help him get some room to use the Pegasus Boots. How powerful is the sonic boom when it hits an enemy?

I don't believe there are any crushing things in Pit...

You mean Kid Icarus? Anyway, if Pit and Palutena haven't shown resistance to crushing, we should assume they have regular resistance to it.

....that link did nothing to disprove my point, and of course he's in the artwork, he's the representative/leader. But I can tell we're going in circles on this so let's just leave it up the vote.

Look at the Trainer's artwork, along the bottom of the CSS at the very beginning of the video.

Because every ring he collects goes into Chao Garden for some reason. I'm not implying he's not physically holding them in Chao Garden, I'm saying it's just a game mechanic of that side mode. I wish I could think of another analogy involving mini-games, but my point is mini-games/side modes (whatever you classify Chao Garden as) are known to limit or exaggerate what characters can do.
@ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @ Nerdicon , what do you guys think?

When you're going shopping, and the place you're shopping at is completely safe, why not bring the money that you've earned and can use to buy things? I don't see how Sonic holding all of his Rings is just a "game mechanic".

I would like to see video proof from Munomario as well because wikis aren‘t an effective substitute for the real thing. Sonic would still get 167 minutes of super time with 10K rings.

Spoiler: Big image

Notice the Ring count that goes into six digits, in the upper right.

Purge stops the victim in it's tracks rather than their speed.

Sonic's high acceleration would make this a non-issue.

Monado Purge drains talent gauge by 75%, Auto attack fills it by 20% per hit, therefore only 4 hits(3 with one use of Stream Edge(+15 to gauge)) to get back to full(25+(20*4)=105). Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WokdPQ3vg08 of player fighting Breezy Zolos, uses Monado Purge at 27:22 and 27:36(14 second difference). This player is only using a Double Attack 20%(talent gauge refill rate 1.2 times normal) and could do a better job of spamming Purge. Our Shulk will be using Glory Gauntlets’ Haste 45% and Double Attack 15% from skills for a refill rate of 1.67 times normal(39% faster than in the video). Shulk could easily spam Purge often enough to keep the aura seal in effect under these circumstances.

This might work against other opponents, but perhaps not against Sonic. It assumes that Shulk would actually be able to hit Sonic in the first place, which I seriously doubt because A) Super Sonic and B) his reaction time.

In order to do this to Sonic he would have to trigger Sonic’s Recoil animation(when he gets hurt and drops rings) which should leave open a short window to connect with a attack. Said opening could be caused by disorientation inflicted by a Failed attack on Monado Shield, injury caused by Shulk’s Spike gem(Sonic won’t know about this until after being injured by it once) or a successful hit from a ether based Monado Art(Ether Arts can either hit or hit but be resisted) such as Purge, Eater, or Cyclone.

Sonic isn't really disoriented after one of his attacks is blocked, so the first point is void. Aside from Super Sonic, the Spike gem wouldn't be a big deal, since Sonic always lands on his feet (even when knocked back by an attack). The final point, again, assumes that Shulk would be able to hit Sonic in the first place.

I wouldn’t consider a forfeit a victory because it is the rules rather than the opponent that beat the participant.

So, are you for or against no teleporting out of the arena?

In game cutscene>Wiki user. “I am the administrative computer of a phase transition experiment facility. But that will mean little to you. To you, I am a machine. That is my original form“(Source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&index=101&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP 28:11-28:29). Nowhere in there does he state that the name of the experiment explicitly is Alvis or Monado!

I still don't see how this means that Shulk would be able to use Alvis, nor how it means that he's part of the Monado, the sword.

We can’t assume the experiment is called Monado because Zanza has claimed to have forged the Monado himself (Source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5rhe7ekhA&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=40 14:40-15:01).

Just because there's a sword called the Monado doesn't mean that it can't also be the name of an experiment.

How is he going to get all his rings knocked out of him if he is in Super Sonic form? It would be foolish to hold back against a god of destruction when we can’t even predict how powerful they really are(just to let you know creation deities tend to be substantially more powerful from my experience). The rings left behind in the bank would be worthless to Sonic if underestimating his opponent gets him killed.

Remember, Super Sonic drains one Ring per second. If I was in that situation, I'd probably bring the minimum amount of my money that I needed (fifty Rings) if I was going to lose a dollar every second.

Link:youtube.com/watch?v=xm955w13LVw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=25 at 27:54-28:27 and Link:youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK0GyJaD4&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=30 at 16:06-16:40.

I don't see anything about sealing movement, but I might be missing something. Either way, I've already addressed this above.

Should we save this part of the debate for the next thread?

I'm not sure why you'd want to save that one part and not the discussion as a whole, but if you'd like to, I'm fine with that.

Monado Arts don’t have cooldowns, they use the talent gauge.

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Cooldown

The Monado is greater than or equal to the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald so it should be able to inhibit the Chaos Emeralds like the Master Emerald does. Doesn’t Knuckles knock the emeralds out of Sonic in Sonic 3 because of the Master Emeralds power?

When is it said that the Monado is more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds (described as having "ultimate power") and the Master Emerald (which has infinite power)? The Master Emerald being able to negate the Chaos Emeralds comes from the gods designing it for that purpose anyways. I've addressed the Knuckles situation in the past, but I'll reiterate. Super Sonic ends when Sonic runs out of Rings, correct? Well, Sonic starts out Angel Island Act 1 (right after the scene in question) with zero Rings. This is likely the reason that Sonic exited his Super Form, rather than Knuckles punching it out of him.

No that is a game mechanic like Mewtwo’s Aura Sphere. Sonic isn’t that fast in gameplay as he can still be taken out by Robotnik’s weak and pathetic robots. Also a Telethia is a beast not a person. Did anyone even look at the cutscene feats I posted?

I don't see what you're getting at with the first sentence.

If Sonic gets hit by a Badnik in gameplay, that's the player's fault. It's very possible to play through an entire Sonic game without getting hit by a single enemy attack. In addition, many cutscenes, etc. show his reaction time, reflexes, speed, agility, etc.; take Sonic Unleashed's opening cutscene, for instance:

Beast, person, same difference (or at least, it doesn't matter here).

Super Sonic is far from invulnerable as you stated he can be hurt by very high-end missiles and by being crushed, and therefore the god-slaying Monado should be able to pierce his invincibility. Purge negates the current aura in effect and seals all auras for a period of time. Super Sonic and multiple wisp transformations are accompanied by an aura, and should therefore be fair game for Monado Purge.

Can the Monado be blocked by shields and such? Just because it can slay gods doesn't mean it's extremely powerful. Take, for instance, the Master Sword. It can kill Ganon, who has power comparable to that of a god thanks to the Triforce of Power. However, it cannot slice through plate armor, shields, etc.

Buster and Eater run off the same talent gauge, so using Buster would have wasted a chance at Eater. Shulk will still be able to find the holes in the projectile patterns.

Ah, I see.

Mario can shoot fireballs extremely quickly and in multiple directions, which would give Shulk a hard time here.

You do know people can concentrate while under attack and Mario is going to suffer a nasty case of spike damage if he does manage to connect.

Can Shulk concentrate to use a Vision (which I haven't found a source for, by the way; could you provide one please?) while he's under attack? Also, the Starman would negate the damage from Spike, and Kuribo's Shoe might also work.

Statue Mario doesn’t have eyes in the back of his head doe he? If he does hit Shulk say goodbye to statue leaf.

Once Mario sees Shulk go from in front of him to his side/back, he'll get out and counter attack.

Monado Purge inflicts damage, damage equals loss of power up. Shulk sees the attack coming, dodges out of the way and avoids being stomped on by jumping on top of Giant Mario. He has done precisely this to Metal Face, Yaldabaoth, a random very large Telethia and The Final Boss. You can see them in links 1, 12, 13 and 14 in the spoiler in post 4857.

Starman negates damage, so he doesn't lose the power-up.

While Shulk's reaction time may be rather quick, Mega Mario's large size and improved speed would prevent him from physically moving out of the way.

Then how is Mewtwo suffering burn damage? Fatal or near-fatal attack equals vision, thanks to Glorious Future skill vision equals full talent gauge, full talent gauge equals one Monado Art of Shulk’s choice.

Fireballs usually OHKO enemies, so no burn damage occurs. In Pokemon, fire attacks usually occur in a burn status effect, so Mewtwo gets burned here.

Oh yay, Shulk gets to use one attack. Assuming that he wasn't killed by said fatal attack, that is.

Shulk is not a Spiky enemy, as the spike damage comes from his Spike gem and would work on all melee strikes including stomps, hammer blows and punches. You really think Mario can take Shulk out by tackling him while under the influence of the Starman?

How exactly does the Spike gem function? That's really the key to reaching a conclusion here.

Not so much tackling, as using all of his other power-ups while invincible, and thus preventing Shulk from using a counter attack.

How great is Mario’s mobility with the Starman? Mario is not invincible with the Starman when it comes to crushing, black holes or bottomless pits.

Here's an example of Mario's speed with a Starman.

Seeing as how Shulk isn't a crushing wall, a black hole, or a bottomless pit, I don't see how this is relevant to this discussion.

Now your going back on your word(1st post of page 100, in regard to mario's melee attacks being ineffective due to the Monado's superior reach)?

I said that before I got to the invincibility granted by the Starman.

You have to prove that Mario can hit Shulk hard and fast enough to counteract Light Heal’s restorative power. Mario won’t be invincible the entire time.

The Mega Mushroom would allow Mario to squash Shulk like a bug.

MunoMario777 how many Sonic and Mario games have you played? I just want to know how familiar you are on the subject, as I've only played Sonic 1, 2, 3+Knuckles and the mainline Mario games up through the 1st galaxy.

Let's see. I've played the Genesis games (1-3, CD, and Knuckles), I've played Sonic Adventure and SA2, I've played Colors, Generations, and Lost World to completion, Colors DS, Generations 3DS, Rush/Rush Adventure, and a few spinoffs here and there. As for Mario, I've played samples of the NES games (thanks to NES Remix), I've played 64 DS, all of the NSMB games, both Galaxy games, 3D Land, 3D World, and quite a few spinoffs.

We need to discuss the nature of invincibility power ups. We know they won’t protect against crushing, black holes or bottomless pits and how do they OHKO common enemies(My guess: spike style damage or tackles)? According to MunoMario Mario can OHKO Palutena by runing into her with the Starman! What happens when Starman Mario runs into Magic Armor Link(Chateau Romani edition)?

I never said that a Starman could OHKO Palutena.

Mario's speed
I haven't been able to figure out Mario's speed, so I'll try to cover a few things. In Super Mario 64, when Mario is going to race Koopa the Quick, he tells Mario he is wearing "Koopa Mach 1 Sprint shoes". One might assume this means that since Mario can outrun Koopa the Quick, he's running faster than sound. Well, unfortunately, this wouldn't prove anything, since the name of something doesn't necessarily make it so. Speed Racer's car is called "Mach 5", but no one thinks it drives that fast. Besides, in Super Mario 64 DS, this was changed to "Supa Koopa Sprint", so even if we took the name of the shoes literally, it's been retconned.

Next, we might look to Mario's ability to run up walls in Super Mario World. The problem is this is not indicative of speed, since the issue wouldn't be about how fast you could run, but how much force you could exert to avoid gravity from pushing you down. We know Mario has strong legs to jump very high, so this should come to no surprise. There are the cannonballs that Mario can dodge and outrun, but how fast are these cannonballs? That might depend on the size and angle. According to Wired, here's a chart.

The green line is with air resistance. We don't have any cannons angled at 45°, so we'd have to work with 40°, which means we're somewhere between 200 and 220 m/s. If we work with 210 m/s, and if Mario can dodge this at a close range of perhaps 0.914 meters, then his reaction time would be 4.35 milliseconds. However, "English cannon, like others, were given names that indicated their sizes. Falcon, saker, demi-culverin, culverin, demi-cannon, cannon and basilisc described calibres from 2-1/2" up to 8-3/4", and weights from 800 lb up to 9000 lb. The middle-of-the-range culverin was 5-1/2" calibre (about a 20pdr), with a range of 460 yards point-blank, and 2650 yards when elevated by 10°. This implies a muzzle velocity of at least 865 fps, or 590 mph", according to this site. That's 263.76 m/s.

Not only do we consistently see Mario able to dodge cannonballs, but we consistently see in these games his ability to outrun them. I would suspect Mario to at least be able to run the speed of sound. If we used the other speed, Mario's reaction time would be 3.47 milliseconds.

Objects in-game travel at their apparent speed unless otherwise specified.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

4) K.
5) The pokemon timeline is very messy now, but it's existed for thousands of years and according to this, Mega Evolution should have been known. Plus Red in Origins can use them. Good point!

Then Red should be allowed to use it. At least for Charizard. As far as i remember, each pokemon requires speciffic Mega Stone and he had only one at that time.

I agree. If you want to get an idea of how powerful a laser would have to be to possibly create a rift in spacetime, it'd be 200 petawatts.

...weren't Luminoth peaceful guys?

How powerful is the sonic boom when it hits an enemy?

As Dryn said, to create a rift in spacetime (something Sonic Boom does despite its name), it has to be 200 petawatts. Also, enemy just disappears if its enough to kill him and all that is left is a crack/rift/whatever in reality.

 

[Munomario777]

As Dryn said, to create a rift in spacetime (something Sonic Boom does despite its name), it has to be 200 petawatts. Also, enemy just disappears if its enough to kill him and all that is left is a crack/rift/whatever in reality.

Just because someone is attempting to use a laser powered with 200 petawatts doesn't mean that Samus's laser has that amount of power.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Just because someone is attempting to use a laser powered with 200 petawatts doesn't mean that Samus's laser has that amount of power.

Well, it still has to be very powerful to has such effect.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, it still has to be very powerful to has such effect.

Or it just has special properties that don't really increase damage dealt, but allow it to create a rift in spacetime.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Or it just has special properties that don't really increase damage dealt, but allow it to create a rift in spacetime.

Even without its side effects, it still is very poweful (3rd most damaging weapon in the game, next to Power Bomb and Screw Attack).

 

[Crystanium]

Link has enough heart containers/life energy/vitality/durability/whatever you want to call it to survive a bomb to the face eighty times.

Ad nauseam.

In gameplay, Link can get burned by lava eighty times without dying. Clearly he has superhuman durability.

Ad nauseam.

No, because they are not fairies (as in, the type caught in a bottle).

But they don't get injured by bombs. You must see the point I'm making.

But it also makes no sense in-universe. I prefer something that makes sense in-universe to something that doesn't.

Then you come up with too many assumptions that conflict with what's occurring, as I demonstrated before.

Either Link has some really durable pockets or he uses hammerspace (most likely the latter, because I don't think he could fit the giant Skull Hammer in his pocket).

Prove it.

Sonic is likely to team up with Tails, but he doesn't here because that is ally assistance. Mario and Luigi are usually teamed up, but they're not here because that is ally assistance. I don't see why the Pokemon Trainer should get additional characters when the others cannot.

Except Tails and Luigi aren't summoned.

I don't see anything indicating Impa being wiser than Zelda (but then again, I haven't played much of the series, so I might be missing something here). Having a certain bloodline might make you more favorable to the Triforce, but if there isn't anyone with that quality, I'd imagine it would go to someone else with that quality.

Odd, considering it's Impa who raises and teaches Zelda how to become a sheik.

Spoiler

Impa also teaches Zelda that she is the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia and prepares her for what was foretold.

Impa's name comes from the fact that she imparts knowledge.

No, but I'd imagine that if a fairy could get destroyed by one Power Bomb, being submerged in lava eighty times in a row would at least dent the bottle.

I can submerge glass into water that's 60°C. That must mean that if I can do this fifty times, it can withstand 3,000°C.

I assume you mean that he would take damage because he would be too slow to dodge the darkbursts, and I agree.

Actually, anyone not sucked into the rift leading to a dark dimension gets injured.

I'd say Link would catch on to the darkburst's suction attributes when it starts sucking in dark particles and the air around him. The Bunny Hood and Pegasus Seeds can be used instantly, so that should help him get some room to use the Pegasus Boots. How powerful is the sonic boom when it hits an enemy?

And if it hit Link? This is what I do after I acquire the darkburst. Hitting the target doesn't give him/her a chance. Pegasus boots have a start-up time. The bunny hood doesn't, but we don't know how fast Link can run with those. The sonic boom distorts spacetime. I would expect it to not do as much damage as it could in-game, considering Mark Pacini also said, "Beating the last boss is much easier with this one. We designed [the boss] around the sonic boom, but it's still balanced." We know balancing a game helps maintain some difficulty. Here's a gif. of it.

Objects in-game travel at their apparent speed unless otherwise specified.

So what about beepboxers and those like them? Here's a dark boomboxer. While Bowser gets hit, you can see the speed at which the sound waves travel. (You can see this again at 14:48. I'm sure Mario could dodge and at least keep up with the sound waves.

...weren't Luminoth peaceful guys?

They were, but war led them to creating weapons against the Ing.

As Dryn said, to create a rift in spacetime (something Sonic Boom does despite its name), it has to be 200 petawatts. Also, enemy just disappears if its enough to kill him and all that is left is a crack/rift/whatever in reality.

Well, that's the amount of power to theoretically create a rift in spacetime. It needs to be tested first. Their purpose is to see if they can find other universes.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

They were, but war led them to creating weapons against the Ing.

Then i guess its been a while since its started because you don't get knowledge on how to make such insane weapons in few years, especially when there is war outside.

Well, that's the amount of power to theoretically create a rift in spacetime. It needs to be tested first. Their purpose is to see if they can find other universes.

My bad. Last part still remains though.
Hopefully its not enough and never will be enough. Those things better be left unknown.

 

[Crystanium]

Then i guess its been a while since its started because you don't get knowledge on how to make such insane weapons in few years, especially when there is war outside.

The war against the Ing lasted 50 years before Samus showed up. (Crazy to think Samus wasn't even born yet.) That's when the Leviathan struck Aether and Tallon IV. This information could be found in the Metroid Prime Trilogy brochure that came with it and was confirmed in the scans in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. The Luminoth are like the Chozo in that they are a very intelligent race. The Chozo even met them, presumably before Aether was struck.

 

[Munomario777]

But they don't get injured by bombs. You must see the point I'm making.

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at here. The residents of Kakariko Village are separate from the Fairies that Link catches in bottles.

Then you come up with too many assumptions that conflict with what's occurring, as I demonstrated before.

I don't see how low gravity conflicts with anything; care to elaborate on that?

Prove it.

Where else would he keep a giant hammer, sixty bombs, sixty arrows, five thousand Rupees, a hookshot, a bow, a pair of iron boots (which don't weigh him down unless he's wearing them, by the way), a giant leaf, and all the other stuff he collects?

Except Tails and Luigi aren't summoned.

And? They're all allies that aren't part of the original character.

Odd, considering it's Impa who raises and teaches Zelda how to become a sheik.

Spoiler

Impa also teaches Zelda that she is the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia and prepares her for what was foretold.

Impa's name comes from the fact that she imparts knowledge.

A teacher could teach, say, art to a student, but that doesn't mean that they're wiser as a whole.

Spoiler

Likewise, just because Impa knew something that Zelda didn't doesn't mean that she's overall wiser than Zelda.

Aside from the points I made above, name origins aren't solid proof.

I can submerge glass into water that's 60°C. That must mean that if I can do this fifty times, it can withstand 3,000°C.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if a fairy and the bottle that it's contained in don't react at all to being repeatedly submerged in lava, then it doesn't seem likely that a power bomb would 100% destroy it (especially when fairies outside of bottles can be blown up multiple times, shot over and over again with light arrows (which OHKO most enemies), caught, dropped in lava multiple times, and still come out unscathed).

Actually, anyone not sucked into the rift leading to a dark dimension gets injured.

How long is the range on that, and how severe is the injury?

And if it hit Link? This is what I do after I acquire the darkburst. Hitting the target doesn't give him/her a chance. Pegasus boots have a start-up time. The bunny hood doesn't, but we don't know how fast Link can run with those.

The bunny hood seems pretty quick, especially if we were to combine its effects with those of the Pegasus Seeds.

The sonic boom distorts spacetime. I would expect it to not do as much damage as it could in-game, considering Mark Pacini also said, "Beating the last boss is much easier with this one. We designed [the boss] around the sonic boom, but it's still balanced." We know balancing a game helps maintain some difficulty. Here's a gif. of it

Hmm, interesting.

So what about beepboxers and those like them? Here's a dark boomboxer. While Bowser gets hit, you can see the speed at which the sound waves travel. (You can see this again at 14:48. I'm sure Mario could dodge and at least keep up with the sound waves.

The voted ruling is "Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)". IIRC, the "reason" must be a clear statement of the speed (speed of light/sound/molasses/etc. as opposed to it being described as a sound/light/molasses/etc.-based attack) or something to that effect.

Well, that's the amount of power to theoretically create a rift in spacetime. It needs to be tested first. Their purpose is to see if they can find other universes.

Just what the world needed...

 

[BaganSmashBros]

The war against the Ing lasted 50 years before Samus showed up. (Crazy to think Samus wasn't even born yet.) That's when the Leviathan struck Aether and Tallon IV. This information could be found in the Metroid Prime Trilogy brochure that came with it and was confirmed in the scans in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. The Luminoth are like the Chozo in that they are a very intelligent race. The Chozo even met them, presumably before Aether was struck.

Then that makes sense. Its amazing how both (Chozo and Luminoth) created insane weapons (Metroids themselves and Quadraxis, for example) when facing such threats despite being known as peaceful guys.

 

[Starry.]

..........

 

[Munomario777]

I didn't really think about this too hard but Robin is probably the strongest.

Spoiler

Seeing as he / she is Grima

Spoiler: Awakening spoilers

Evil Robin from the future is a god; regular Robin merely has the potential to be one. Grima also isn't immortal; he can be killed by normal means, it would just be extremely difficult unless you have a divine weapon or a dragon slaying one. If he's not killed by Robin, he'll merely turn to bones and sleep for a millenia, which would count as a loss in this hypothetical situation.

 

[Nerdicon]

It's a tie now. @ Nerdicon is the deciding factor. In the chance he doesn't vote, we can use this that he said 1000 pages ago.

That's unnecessary, as I have always thought that summons are fair game.

 

[Starry.]

..........

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@Dryn , you didn't respond to the question about what you think Sonic's upper ring limit should be. Also, does ZSS gain any new moves in Other M? I'm trying to figure out if she should rank above Diddy and Jigglypuff.
@ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @Reckless Godwin 2.0 Should Marth and Ike get access to skills from awakening since they didn't appear but ghost verions of them did? (The spirits of heros given flesh form)


Anyway, since no one left anything worth responding to, I'm reposting my tier list, updated to include the missing Smasher and reflect the rule changes (as well as the pending rule leaning heavily against Sonic getting 999,999, which would limit him to 9,999 instead).


A tier
1
Can turn into Super Sonic, which makes him able to move at light speed if need be. Also is nearly invincible, vulnerable only to mental attacks, and the strongest of attacks (in theory). But with 9,999 rings (2 hours and 47 minutes) he'll last too long for the few people who could beat regular Sonic. For the people who can out last Super Sonic, they'll have to deal with Sonic's sonic speed and wisps. Demoted from A tier from S tier since he went from 11 days of Super Sonic to 2 hours and 47 minutes.

2 Composite Link, with access to equipment and items from all of his games. Chateau Romani gives 3 days of unlimited magic, which means he can use Magic Cape (makes him intangible and invulnerable) defensively while spamming his ice/fire rods and medallions. Also has 250k rupees to power his magic suit in the rare event his 3 days of magic depletes or if he wants to be more offensive (he can't use other magic items while using magic cape but can use sword as well as pick up/grab ppl). Not to mention the 4 swords to make 3 extra copies.
3 Unlimited ammo on many of her weapons, can can turn into a invincible, supersonic moving when she needs to go on defense (takes 1 second of running to activate.)

4 Composite Toon Link (WW, PH, the 3 Four Swords games) Lacks as much offense, as composite Link, and doesn't have access to Chateau Romani, but still has magic armor plus 250k rupees, which should let him outstall even Kirby. Magic Armor only loses rupees when hit. Also can use Four Sword to gang upon people.

5 multiple guards that grant near or total invincibility, the warp star moves at high speeds, hypernova swallows almost anything (albeit is a one time use skill), and has a variety of projectiles.

6Access to all the powers (with unlimited uses) from Uprising, the various light powers her staff provides, flight and the Palutena's Bow.
7 No access to Powers as they are granted by Lady Palutena, nor the abilities of flight.
8 Ditto.
9 Can summon Lumas that turn into stars or black holes. Also has a near-impenetrable shield. Has access to one of every power-up from Super Mario 3D world (Mega Mushroom, Lucky Bell, Bell, Fire Flower, Super Leaf, Boomerang, Super Star, Double Cherry)
10 Can't be killed by non-holy attacks, although he can be sealed/trapped in other dimension. As far as I know Kirby lacks holy attacks, but Palutena (being a god) and Rosalina (trap him in a black hole) have the edge over Ganondorf but not Kirby, thus Ganon being placed below someone he can beat. Ganondorf can turn invisible and intangible temporarily, fire magical balls, and wield 2 swords at once. As Ganon he can do the above except also wield a trident which shoots out lightning. Only thing Ganon can't do that Ganondorf can is float.
11 Uses Red's team. Can use all 6 at once. Not many can handle that kind of onslaught.
12
13
-Give Mewtwo the edge over Ness because although Ness can fully recover all HP for a tiny fraction of his total PP (Lifeup), and has a shield which halves damage while reflecting some (Shield), I believe Mewtwo can out last him by peppering him with his variety of specials. Mewtwo can put up a light screen (raises defense by 100%) and than copy either Ness's shield or healing move and out last him. I'd also argue Brick Break can pierce Ness's Shield.
14
-Lifeup heals any status ailment, Healing heals all HP, Shield halves physical damage (doesn't block some attacks) and also has a PSI version, and has PK Love (his version of PK Rockin). Under Ness because his shield is inferior.

Tier B:
15
16 Can do everything Robin can but slightly better stats and access to aether, however aether has half the activation rate of Sol so in this situation Sol is better. Same skill as Robin (see Below)
17 Can switch classes during battle to fit best situation. Best offense in general though is as a sorceror, where Aversa's Night guarantees she recovers health = 50% of damaged deal with each attack; the skill Sol guarantees she gets 100% every other attack. Vantage (when she's under 50% health) acts like visions. Armsthrift makes her not need to worry about durability. Counter returns any melee damage dealt. Limit Breaker increase stats, including skill activation. Can change into a flier for evasion while attacking from up high with attacks. Changing into a general makes him a stone wall. Or any class.

18 Ridiculous number of power-ups and items, some of which grant temporary invincibility (Starman, Leaf, Lucky Bell, Mega Mushroom). Too many items and power-ups to list
19 Does everything Mario does minus a few RPG powers and items, plus the vanish and wing cap.
20
21
- w/vehicles. Barrel Roll can block even lasers. Below Mario Bros because between their various invincibility granting items plus using Barry to reflect lasers, I think they could probably win. Unsure though.

Tier C
22 Double team makes illusions that can boost his evasion by 300%, and going off the anime, these illusions can appear to attack. Then Charizard attacks with an AOE attack to catch MK from flying around too much. Flight gives it edge over other Pokemon.
23
24
25
-various projectiles, protect and dodging techniques put them over the FE characters.
26 Rose since my last list. Her parasol blocks almost any attack, she has access to Pixls that make untouchable and can reflect any attack, plus a bomb and hammer pixl, not to mention her power-ups fro 3D world, has healing skills (Therapy only costs 2 of her 99 FP), and Psych Bomb (15 fp) which is an AoE attack that can't be resisted. Has a variety of items to restore FP should see run out. She can use Carry to move and guard with her parasol.
27 Variety of projectiles (Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, Water Pulse, etc) status inflicting moves (sing, thunder wave) healing moves (wish), rest + sleep talk, and some other moves make up for being a foot tall.
28skills: Counter, Limit Breaker, Aether, Armsthrift, Cancel
-Despite all the discussion about Nihil, I'm dropping it for Limit Breaker, for 2 reasons: 1) We can't agree if Nihil works on only skills, skills and advanced attacks, and if it should only apply to automatic advanced attacks/skills or manual ones to. 2) Cancel negates counterattacks (requires Ike to attack first) when activated, and with Limit Breaker would activate every other attack.
-Rose since my last list because of Cancel+Limit Breaker, remembering Ragnell can attack at range, and Counter.
29 immune to all non-projectiles attacks except from manaketes (dragons) thanks to the original Falchion.
30 Can see attacks coming, and can break->Topple->Daze foes to leave them unable to move for several seconds (providing all 3 hit). Has gems that make him immune to most status ailments and can causes some damage back to enemies that use melee attacks. Limited by no projectiles.
31 Super Strong and durable, can jump high and move quick in bursts, shoot fire and throw hammers. Plus has access to Pixls, a giant chained ball , poisonous breath, summon a giant rock pointed rock from ground or a giant Mecha Koopa from above.
32 Rose since my last list because I read about his disguises. Quick list of the relevant ones plus other transformations:

• Sparky Wario - Wario can create electricity and light up dark places. Can shoot electric after certain events. This is activated by clicking the screen and Wario cannot move while sending out electricity.
• Space Wario- Wario is equipped with a space suit and a laser gun, by touching the screen Wario fires in that direction.
• Wicked Wario- Can Fly.
• Jet Wario- can also fly, difference is it goes quicker horizontally but can't rise any higher than Wario can jump.
• Dragon Wario- Can shoot fire
• King Dragon Wario- Can fly and shoot fire that goes till end of the screen.

-Despite all this, is below the FE characters because none of his projectiles go fast except for his gun, and all of his power-ups disappear after a hit if I'm not mistaken.
33 That his clown car can fly and turn into a race car, plus has an indefinite amount of bombs, and he can breathe fire gives him edge over apes and most below him. Also has a snarl that paralyzes people who get to close.
34 Yes his car is fast and but as far as I'm aware all it can do is ram into people, and he can't go too fast since the arena is only 10 miles by 10 miles and he wouldn't want to crash into a wall...

Tier D
35
36 & 37 Can use light arrows and the goddess items because she is good with magic. Sheik has all those plus is agile and has that vanishing bomb.
38
39
40 Flies really fast and can fire sword beams. Lacks the invincible guards like Kirby to make up for being 8 inches.
41 Can shoot pellets. Also has one time use items that last for 15 seconds that let him: turn into metal, run around the enemy and create a ring that closes in and attacks, ground pound that also releases shock waves, shoot electricity.
42 supreme agility, paralyzing gun, strong
43 Can eat people and turn them into eggs, and can throw eggs but has a very limited supply.
44 MIi Gunner- On top because his variety of guns keep other Miis (and most below him) at bay.
45 Mii Swordfighter- Above Brawler because having a sword, ability to make gust and a counter should give him edge.
46 Mii Brawler- Over Little Mac because he throw a cannonball and his variety of kicking moves
47

Tier F:
48 Can make his body into anything seen in G&W, including a giant octopus
49 2 people with super jumping abilities wielding big hammers.
50 Mario without the power-ups, badges or equipment, but can throw pills.
51 Strong enough to chop down trees in a few blows
52 Good at Yoga
53 A dog and a bird
54
55
56 Outside of cameo appearances, only game is Mario Kart DS where his only move is spinning his arms like his side B.


Rule update:
If I'm not mistaken Nerdicon's post said he approves of all Summons. So that means that rules passes.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @Reckless Godwin 2.0 Should Marth and Ike get access to skills from awakening since they didn't appear but ghost verions of them did? (The spirits of heros given flesh form)

Sure.

54

Why is he so low? He can actually fight, unlike the other guys in that tier. In fact, he defeated Queen Sectonia DX, who is planetary.

And? They're all allies that aren't part of the original character.

Yet, summoning the allies is part of the character. Any summons are allowed now.

Fireballs usually OHKO enemies, so no burn damage occurs. In Pokemon, fire attacks usually occur in a burn status effect, so Mewtwo gets burned here.

Mario's fireballs aren't in Pokemon. Why would they occur in a status effect from another universe?

In Shulk's regard, the Monado has the ability to control ether. Not Alvis, but the Monado. And seeing as Shulk has used the Monado with Alvis alongside him, that just shows he doesn't really need Alvis to use it. In the ending, Alvis stated that Shulk is a god, not himself, and that Shulk can decide the fate of the universe. Alvis just powered his ability to do that. A similar case is Ragnell receiving the blessing of a few goddesses.

 

[Munomario777]

Yet, summoning the allies is part of the character. Any summons are allowed now.

Summoning Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard is part of the Pokemon Trainer's character in Smash. That trainer hasn't summoned any other Pokemon, so summoning other Pokemon isn't part of his character.

When was it ruled that all summons are allowed?

Mario's fireballs aren't in Pokemon. Why would they occur in a status effect from another universe?

When Mewtwo is hit with a fire attack, it gets the burning effect.
Fireballs are a fire attack.
Therefore, when Mewtwo is hit with fireballs, it gets the burning effect.

In Shulk's regard, the Monado has the ability to control ether. Not Alvis, but the Monado. And seeing as Shulk has used the Monado with Alvis alongside him, that just shows he doesn't really need Alvis to use it. In the ending, Alvis stated that Shulk is a god, not himself, and that Shulk can decide the fate of the universe. Alvis just powered his ability to do that. A similar case is Ragnell receiving the blessing of a few goddesses.

To what extent does the Monado show this ability? If we're going by someone being called a "god", then Palutena is the strongest character. If Alvis is fueling Shulk's god powers, then that's ally assistance.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at here. The residents of Kakariko Village are separate from the Fairies that Link catches in bottles.

Both are NPCs. They won't receive damage from bombs unless they're programmed to be harmed. This happens in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Children cannot be killed, unless you reprogram it as you can do on the PC.

I don't see how low gravity conflicts with anything; care to elaborate on that?

Link doesn't jump higher than a typical human would. His muscles would atrophy, which would include the heart. His bones would weaken so falling would likely break his bones as if he had osteoporosis. His proprioception would also probably not be as good.

Where else would he keep a giant hammer, sixty bombs, sixty arrows, five thousand Rupees, a hookshot, a bow, a pair of iron boots (which don't weigh him down unless he's wearing them, by the way), a giant leaf, and all the other stuff he collects?

And? They're all allies that aren't part of the original character.

Would you rather have PT not exist and have each Pokemon function on its own?

A teacher could teach, say, art to a student, but that doesn't mean that they're wiser as a whole.

A wise teacher is wiser than the student, especially when it comes to the legends.

Aside from the points I made above, name origins aren't solid proof.

It still stands that Impa is always the one who instructs Zelda and watches over her.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if a fairy and the bottle that it's contained in don't react at all to being repeatedly submerged in lava, then it doesn't seem likely that a power bomb would 100% destroy it (especially when fairies outside of bottles can be blown up multiple times, shot over and over again with light arrows (which OHKO most enemies), caught, dropped in lava multiple times, and still come out unscathed).

You are saying that. The only difference is submerging the fairy in the glass bottle multiple times and the likelihood of the power bomb not completely destroying it. That's just what I illustrated in my last post.

How long is the range on that, and how severe is the injury?

I'm not sure what the range is if you're asking how far the projectile flies. The damage is "high", but that doesn't explain anything.

The bunny hood seems pretty quick, especially if we were to combine its effects with those of the Pegasus Seeds.

That would require Link to put on his bunny hood and then reach into his satchel, put a Pegasus seed in his mouth and then chew and swallow it.

The voted ruling is "Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)". IIRC, the "reason" must be a clear statement of the speed (speed of light/sound/molasses/etc. as opposed to it being described as a sound/light/molasses/etc.-based attack) or something to that effect.

Then you're ignoring what's quantifiable. That means I'll ignore everything that I calculated for Link.

Just what the world needed...

I don't see why that's bad. It could benefit the world if we find other universes and it will support the idea that there are other dimensions.

Then that makes sense. Its amazing how both (Chozo and Luminoth) created insane weapons (Metroids themselves and Quadraxis, for example) when facing such threats despite being known as peaceful guys.

The Chozo were actually a war-oriented race, according to Yoshio Sakamoto.

"Formerly, the Chozo had advanced technology and were a race proud of their advanced fighting strength. However, due to their long lives, their fertility decreased and their civilization declined, so they changed their personality to a non-violent race. The Chozo gave Samus the 'Powered Suit' which was created by assembling together the essence of this advanced technology."

@ ShadowLBlue I think Sonic should get the amount he can hold from a single game. If his ring count is exceeding what is portrayed in the games because all his rings he can carry from different games are being added together so that he ends up with 99,999 rings, that should not be allowed, unless characters like Link will get to hold more, which seems to be the case. Then that should mean Samus should get to hold more than 20 energy tanks and more than 255 missiles.

Zamus' paralyzer seems more effective and she can use sense move. She could probably use counter attack as well, just because that's not an ability required while wearing the powered armor. Now, I'm going to have fun using Marvel's power grid for Samus.

• Intelligence: Learned - I chose this because both Captain America and Red Hulk are categorized under this. They both are part of the military. Samus was also part of the military and she was also raised by the Chozo, the most scientifically and technologically advanced race. This could possibly make her gifted, if only in the military department.
• Strength: Peak human/Superhuman 25 - 75 ton range - Samus has shown the ability to lift her own weight outside of her armor, but her armor adds additional strength of 55+ metric tons.
• Speed: Supersonic - The speed booster allows Samus to run at least Mach 2 on a low-end.
• Durability: Enhaced/Regenerative/Bulletproof - Indeed, the powered armor protects Samus, making her durability enhanced, but she can also regenerate using concentration and crystal flash. She's also bulletproof as in bullets will damage her energy shield, but will not penetrate it.
• Energy projection: Able to discharge multiple forms of energy - Indeed, this is the case from electricity, ice, plasma, sound, light, &c.
• Fighting ability: Master of several forms of combat - I chose this because Samus was raised by the Chozo and was trained in the military. She might know techniques that humans do not know.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Summoning Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard is part of the Pokemon Trainer's character in Smash. That trainer hasn't summoned any other Pokemon, so summoning other Pokemon isn't part of his character.

And we've gave the trainer Red's summons.

When was it ruled that all summons are allowed?

Maybe you should keep better track of this thread. It was allowed in a 4-3 vote. Me, Dryn, Nerdicon, and Godwin voted for any summons, while you, Shadow, and Bagan voted for temporary summons.

When Mewtwo is hit with a fire attack, it gets the burning effect.
Fireballs are a fire attack.
Therefore, when Mewtwo is hit with fireballs, it gets the burning effect.

Correction.
When Mewtwo is hit with a fire attack that inflicts the burning effect, it gets the burning effect.
Fireballs don't inflict the burning effect.
Therefore, when Mewtwo is hit with fireballs, it doesn't get the burning effect.

In fact, not even all fire attacks Mewtwo can be hit with in Pokemon give him the burning effect. Such as, Flamethrower and Fire Fang.

To what extent does the Monado show this ability? If we're going by someone being called a "god", then Palutena is the strongest character. If Alvis is fueling Shulk's god powers, then that's ally assistance.

We're not just going by calling someone a god, we're going by their feats. Shulk reset the universe, pretty good feat. Alvis isn't really fueling Shulk's god powers constantly, he helped him realize Shulk was the god himself, and that Alvis is the power source. Shulk wouldn't be using Alvis, he'd be using the power that Alvis gave him. Like Ike using the power that the goddesses gave him.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Also, does ZSS gain any new moves in Other M? I'm trying to figure out if she should rank above Diddy and Jigglypuff.

No. But she is limited here by Adam's helmet she holds. Her Paralyzer certainly can damage someone since it destroys some blocks in Zero Mission (including those that can be destroyed only by bombs). And in Other M, it can stun enemies even when uncharged, so, one hit will be enough to prevent opponent from doing anything by continuing to spam more shots. What will happen after that depends on how strong she is compared to a normal human.

The Chozo were actually a war-oriented race, according to Yoshio Sakamoto.

"Formerly, the Chozo had advanced technology and were a race proud of their advanced fighting strength. However, due to their long lives, their fertility decreased and their civilization declined, so they changed their personality to a non-violent race. The Chozo gave Samus the 'Powered Suit' which was created by assembling together the essence of this advanced technology."

I know, but weren't they already non-violent when creating Metroids?

 

[Crystanium]

I know, but weren't they already non-violent when creating Metroids?

Yes; as noted in Super Metroid, they were created for the good of civilization.

 

[Munomario777]

Both are NPCs. They won't receive damage from bombs unless they're programmed to be harmed. This happens in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Children cannot be killed, unless you reprogram it as you can do on the PC.

Ah, I see. Still, lava, bomb plants, and other environmental hazards cannot harm Fairies, and Link isn't the one dealing the damage (or not dealing the damage, in this case).

Link doesn't jump higher than a typical human would. His muscles would atrophy, which would include the heart. His bones would weaken so falling would likely break his bones as if he had osteoporosis. His proprioception would also probably not be as good.

Hmm, true. I'd argue that his bones probably wouldn't break if they were weakened to adapt to that gravity (or alternatively, the people of Hyrule were designed for that sort of gravity), but it does seem like a game mechanic at this point.

Spoiler: Gallery of Links without a bunch of junk on their back

Also worth noting is that the 12th Link from the top left (between ALBW and Majora) is the same Link as the one in your artwork.

Would you rather have PT not exist and have each Pokemon function on its own?

No, I'd rather have the team be the same as in Smash, as far as which characters there are.

A wise teacher is wiser than the student, especially when it comes to the legends

Wiser in the realm of legends =/= wiser overall. It's very possible for a student to become wiser than his or her teacher/

It still stands that Impa is always the one who instructs Zelda and watches over her.

Not always. This is a good example of Zelda suggesting something, Impa questioning it, and Zelda still doing it regardless. This turned out to be a rather wise decision, seeing as how it saved the world and all.

You are saying that. The only difference is submerging the fairy in the glass bottle multiple times and the likelihood of the power bomb not completely destroying it. That's just what I illustrated in my last post.

The example you provided and the fairy and lava situation are rather different, actually. Let's look at the numbers and such:

• Your temperature example: water that is at 60 degrees Celsius. The Power Bomb is (according to you, anyways) at up to 3000. This is a 1/50 ratio between the water and the Power Bomb.
• My temperature example: lava that is potentially up to 1160 degrees Celsius. The Power Bomb is, again, 3000 degrees Celsius, making it a ~1/3 ratio between the lava and the Power Bomb (being generous to the Power Bomb).

1/50 =/= 1/3.

I'm not sure what the range is if you're asking how far the projectile flies. The damage is "high", but that doesn't explain anything.

No, the area around the projectile that enemies within are damaged/sucked in.

That would require Link to put on his bunny hood and then reach into his satchel, put a Pegasus seed in his mouth and then chew and swallow it.

Similarly, Samus needs to charge up for a second to fire the darkburst. The bunny hood could get him going, and then he could eat the beans while running. Also, in Four Swords, they are activated upon contact if I'm not mistaken.

Then you're ignoring what's quantifiable. That means I'll ignore everything that I calculated for Link.

I don't see what makes your previous calculations invalid. The Pegasus Boots quote directly refers to speed ("faster than the wind"), and the Bunny Hood is rather self-explanatory.

I don't see why that's bad. It could benefit the world if we find other universes and it will support the idea that there are other dimensions.

I can't imagine what sort of negative effects it could have. What if we open a portal to a vacuum? It would be the equivalent of opening a window on a space ship. But that's a discussion for another time.

@ ShadowLBlue I think Sonic should get the amount he can hold from a single game. If his ring count is exceeding what is portrayed in the games because all his rings he can carry from different games are being added together so that he ends up with 99,999 rings, that should not be allowed, unless characters like Link will get to hold more, which seems to be the case. Then that should mean Samus should get to hold more than 20 energy tanks and more than 255 missiles.

The 999,999 Ring count is actually from the Chao Garden mode in Sonic Adventure 2, in which he can hold that amount all at once (presumably, since the counter goes into triple digits).

And we've gave the trainer Red's summons.

I didn't see where it says that he's Red, but whatever.

Maybe you should keep better track of this thread. It was allowed in a 4-3 vote. Me, Dryn, Nerdicon, and Godwin voted for any summons, while you, Shadow, and Bagan voted for temporary summons.

I see.

Correction.
When Mewtwo is hit with a fire attack that inflicts the burning effect, it gets the burning effect.
Fireballs don't inflict the burning effect.
Therefore, when Mewtwo is hit with fireballs, it doesn't get the burning effect.

Fireballs don't deal a burning effect because the enemies often die in one hit (and if a burning attack finishes off a Pokemon, they faint rather than being burnt).

In fact, not even all fire attacks Mewtwo can be hit with in Pokemon give him the burning effect. Such as, Flamethrower and Fire Fang.

Actually, Flamethrower and Fire Fang do cause burning.

We're not just going by calling someone a god, we're going by their feats. Shulk reset the universe, pretty good feat. Alvis isn't really fueling Shulk's god powers constantly, he helped him realize Shulk was the god himself, and that Alvis is the power source. Shulk wouldn't be using Alvis, he'd be using the power that Alvis gave him. Like Ike using the power that the goddesses gave him.

Shulk did not singlehandedly reset the universe. He told Alvis to reset it (as evidenced by the fact that Shulk had to ask him for his decision for it to take effect, among other things that I've discussed in the past). If Alvis is the power source, then without him, Shulk cannot use his God powers. The difference between this and, say, Link's Master Sword (and I'd assume Ragnell, but I'm not experienced with FE) is that with Shulk, Alvis is like a battery. Take the battery out of a flashlight, it stops working. Meanwhile, the Master Sword's blessing from the gods is like a coat of paint. If you paint a car, and you destroy the can of paint, the paint stays on. This is evidenced by the fact that the power still stays in the Master Sword, even when Link travels to other dimensions and such.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Fireballs don't deal a burning effect because the enemies often die in one hit (and if a burning attack finishes off a Pokemon, they faint rather than being burnt).

And if the fireballs don't finish off the enemy in one hit (Bowser, Bowser Jr., Koopa Troopas even), it doesn't show any sort of burning effect.

Shulk did not singlehandedly reset the universe. He told Alvis to reset it (as evidenced by the fact that Shulk had to ask him for his decision for it to take effect, among other things that I've discussed in the past). If Alvis is the power source, then without him, Shulk cannot use his God powers. The difference between this and, say, Link's Master Sword (and I'd assume Ragnell, but I'm not experienced with FE) is that with Shulk, Alvis is like a battery. Take the battery out of a flashlight, it stops working. Meanwhile, the Master Sword's blessing from the gods is like a coat of paint. If you paint a car, and you destroy the can of paint, the paint stays on. This is evidenced by the fact that the power still stays in the Master Sword, even when Link travels to other dimensions and such.

In order for the Master Sword to receive power, the two sages have to pray for the gods to infuse their power with the sword. Take away the gods, the sword can't be powered anymore.

In this situation, Alvis wouldn't actually be in the arena, nor would Shulk be telling him to do anything, nor would Alvis be doing anything on purpose. Shulk would just be using the power that Alvis emits, and not Alvis himself.

Shulk has the power to decide the fate of the universe. As in, it's something he possesses, as an ability. The reason Shulk told Alvis to reset the universe was most likely just because he wasn't experienced himself. Saying that the ability to reset the universe is the ability to tell Alvis to reset the universe just shows that Alvis does whatever Shulk wants him to do, basically like an item.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, I see. Still, lava, bomb plants, and other environmental hazards cannot harm Fairies, and Link isn't the one dealing the damage (or not dealing the damage, in this case).

You're just repeating yourself.

Also worth noting is that the 12th Link from the top left (between ALBW and Majora) is the same Link as the one in your artwork.

I'd expect the artwork to look like that with Link's standard equipment.

Wiser in the realm of legends =/= wiser overall. It's very possible for a student to become wiser than his or her teacher/

That's not what I'm saying. I only brought up the legends because it's a key point in all Zelda games. I wouldn't be surprised if Impa is the steward of the king of Hyrule and if he looks to her cousel. Of course it's possible for Zelda to become wiser than Impa. The point is, why didn't the goddess Nayru grant Impa the Triforce of Wisdom if it's granted to those who are wise? I'd say it's because she doesn't have the blood of the goddess. After all, Impa is merely a servant.

Not always. This is a good example of Zelda suggesting something, Impa questioning it, and Zelda still doing it regardless. This turned out to be a rather wise decision, seeing as how it saved the world and all.

I'm sure Impa was simply apprehensive of sending off something that's been part of the Royal Family to a young man. While Zelda's choice was wise, Impa did not continue to question Zelda after Zelda explained.

The example you provided and the fairy and lava situation are rather different, actually. Let's look at the numbers and such:

• Your temperature example: water that is at 60 degrees Celsius. The Power Bomb is (according to you, anyways) at up to 3000. This is a 1/50 ratio between the water and the Power Bomb.
• My temperature example: lava that is potentially up to 1160 degrees Celsius. The Power Bomb is, again, 3000 degrees Celsius, making it a ~1/3 ratio between the lava and the Power Bomb (being generous to the Power Bomb).

1/50 =/= 1/3.

It was merely analogous in that you could submerge something in high temperature multiple times without it being unaffected. We don't know how hot the lava is, so we work with a low-end, meaning it's 700°C, unless you want to prove that it's higher.

No, the area around the projectile that enemies within are damaged/sucked in.

In the video, the debris being sucked in looks about to be at least 10 meters.

Similarly, Samus needs to charge up for a second to fire the darkburst. The bunny hood could get him going, and then he could eat the beans while running. Also, in Four Swords, they are activated upon contact if I'm not mistaken.

Not even a second. It's somewhere between 400 to 500 milliseconds, but the accel charges would make the time considerably shorter.

I don't see what makes your previous calculations invalid. The Pegasus Boots quote directly refers to speed ("faster than the wind"), and the Bunny Hood is rather self-explanatory.

Yes, but "faster than wind" could mean greater than 1 m/s, so . . .

 

[ShadowLBlue]

As of this moment, a majority has been reached on all rules that have been proposed. I'm going to repost them for the last time, including some older ones we all go by but have not mentioned:

1. Characters are mostly based on games, but alternate media like anime based off the games can be used if it doesn't contradict the games or isn't in an alternate universe (Sonic Boom). Hierachy of priority: Games > anime/manga > Smash trophy info
2. Characters must obey any PP/FP/BP limits from their games, except for Palutena, which is noted in a separate rule.
   
3. Really a 2A, but anyway: Palutena grants Powers to Pit (presuming they've been found) in Kid Icarus: Uprising, so it makes sense she either can refill said Powers when she runs out or has much higher, undefined limit on the times she can use them.
4. Characters get access to one of every power-up or item they can hold. This also includes the power-ups from the boxes in Sonic (like the Fire Shield) or the power-ups from Mario that he normally can't store (Star). Would not include something like Springs for Sonic.
5. Characters can't not bring allies, but if they are capable of summoning help (Ganondorf making Phantom Ganondorf, Palutena summoning her army of Centurions, etc) that is allowed. Rosalina doesn't count since her character is Rosalina and Luma.
   
6. Characters don't get items/weapons they don't really own and only appeared in one game, a la the Triforce for Ganon (A Link to the Past), Samus's Hyper Beam or the Star Rod for Kirby or Bowser, etc.
   
7. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as Link likes; C) have 3 out at once. Should get all of listed effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
8. Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems
9. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)
   
10. A turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs, or attacks with large cool-down or build-up, like Hyper Beam or Solar Beam respectively in Pokemon.
    
11. Teleport in Kid Icarus, Pokemon and Zelda can be used freely, although Pokemon's has limited uses and Link's involves him setting a warp point the first time he uses it and then the second time he uses it he can either warp there or make where he is using Farore's win a new warp point.
12. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well
13. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs outs, and from there can use one Super Missile in place of 5 missiles.
14. Pokemon only can hold one item.
15. Zelda and Shiek do NOT get their moves from Hyrule Warriors
16. PT gets the 6 Pokemon Red had: Pikachu, Venasaur, Blastoise, Charizard, Snorlax and Lapras.
17. PT can be targeted but you must knock out all 6 of his 'mons to beat him. Killing him won't win the battle.
18. PT can use as many Pokemon as he wants at a time.
19. Pokemon get access too all of their moves instead of just 4.
20. All of PT's Pokemon can Mega Evolve in battle rather than just one.
21. Mewtwo doesn't need help to Mega Evolve; the most recent movie it was in showed that.
22. Characters can't not bring allies, but if they are capable of summoning help (Ganondorf making Phantom Ganondorf, Palutena summoning her army of Centurions, etc) that is allowed.
23. Sonic gets the max of rings he's had in main mode; Chao Garden doesn't count. I believe the most digits a counter has displayed is 4, so he'd only be allowed to carry 9,999 rings. If my math is right, that means he can stay in Super Sonic form for 2 hours and 47 minutes (rounding up). But since he dies if hit without rings, he'd probably want to save some.

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @ BaganSmashBros , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Dastardly Ridleylash , I was thinking we should do a FAQ, for when we get peppered with the inevitable questions/comments like:

• "Robin would win because he/she's a god" FALSE: The Robin that survived at the end had the potential to turn into Grima but that connection was broken at the end of the game when Robin killed Grima.
• "Character X beat [insert strong foe here] so they must be number one" FALSE: what qualifies as strong in one universe may not translate in another. Also, said hero might just be a perfect counter for that villain.

I can't think of anything else, but feel free to add on.

Sure.

1-0

Why is he so low? He can actually fight, unlike the other guys in that tier. In fact, he defeated Queen Sectonia DX, who is planetary.

He's 8 inches tall and unlike Kirby lacks any invincible guards, no helpful projectiles (he can fire a shockwave at full health and his hammer can also send out rockets and a flamethrower, but all those require him to be stationary and could be easily jumped over by many of the low tier fighters over him), and unlike Meta Knight lacks a teleport.

When was it ruled that all summons are allowed?

It just passed, Nerdicon broke the tie. I'll do a full rules update now that every rule has had a majority rule.

When Mewtwo is hit with a fire attack, it gets the burning effect.
Fireballs are a fire attack.
Therefore, when Mewtwo is hit with fireballs, it gets the burning effect.

Only sometimes. Outside of Willow Wisp, most fire attacks have like a 10% chance of inflicting burn.

@ ShadowLBlue I think Sonic should get the amount he can hold from a single game. If his ring count is exceeding what is portrayed in the games because all his rings he can carry from different games are being added together so that he ends up with 99,999 rings, that should not be allowed, unless characters like Link will get to hold more, which seems to be the case. Then that should mean Samus should get to hold more than 20 energy tanks and more than 255 missiles.

Well it's not from different games, it's rings being carried over from different levels in the main mode into Chao Garden, which is like a side mode where all the characters can go play with Chao (even Eggman and Shadow). And also, If I'm not mistaken, it's not just Sonic's rings, I think rings collected with every character go into the "wallet" used in Chao Garden, which drastically exceeds the max number Sonic can acquire in the main mode in a level (999).
You can't bring Rings from this mode back to the main game.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

He's 8 inches tall and unlike Kirby lacks any invincible guards, no helpful projectiles (he can fire a shockwave at full health and his hammer can also send out rockets and a flamethrower, but all those require him to be stationary and could be easily jumped over by many of the low tier fighters over him), and unlike Meta Knight lacks a teleport.

Dedede's actually two feet tall, he's three times bigger than Kirby. I think it would be rather hard to jump over rockets and flamethrowers. Dedede can also throw bombs, and several of his attacks can generate stars (like Super Dedede Jump). Then, there's the vehicle from the anime allowing for quick cannonballs. He can puff up and float around, good for dodging. I don't really see a way he'd lose to MG&W, at least.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Dedede's actually two feet tall, he's three times bigger than Kirby. I think it would be rather hard to jump over rockets and flamethrowers. Dedede can also throw bombs, and several of his attacks can generate stars (like Super Dedede Jump). Then, there's the vehicle from the anime allowing for quick cannonballs. He can puff up and float around, good for dodging. I don't really see a way he'd lose to MG&W, at least.

Really, I've never seen that. But he is bigger than Kirby, I can't believe I forgot that. In that case, I'd probably bump him up to right over Little Mac. Possibly the Mii fighters.

BTW, do you think Pokemon attacks would pierce a Landmaster or Arwing? I lean towards yes, but even then I'm not sure the 'mons could physically catch up with them. The Arwings specifically should be able to fly too fast to be hit by the 'mons, although I think Charizard could play defensive and possibly win.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

If we're choosing who's the strongest character in Smash, than where should we have the cutoff? Do we cut it off at "characters that appear in matches", which would mean we'd probably have to have Ridley in the tournament, as well, or do we stick to just the playable fighters? If we do have Ridley included, then that complicates things further.

So I suppose I'll just posit the idea; Should we count NPC/Stage-based Fighters as eligible for matchups if they fufill the requirements that would be as such;

• They get treated by the same ruleset that the current fighters abide by (meaning that games take precedence over anime and other material, moves that have limited uses retain limited uses, etc.).
• Any ability that would indefinitely prolong a battle (such as flight, in Ridley's case) or make a battle lopsided (like Mega Laser) would get a limit imposed upon them to keep things fair (like making it so that Ridley can only spend 15 minutes in the air at a time before being forced to land for another 15 minutes, or that Mega Laser would only be active for 6 seconds at a time before being forced into a cooldown period).
• Durability of NPC fighters is defined primarily by their home franchise, specifically the most prominent media in that franchise (so Ridley and Samus use the Metroid games as reference for durability), unless said media is contradictory to itself (like if Ridley died by missile one game and could only be killed by nuclear blasts the next); in which case the more fair alternative takes precedence.
• NPC fighters cannot inflict status conditions (paralysis, burn, etc) for more than 7 turns (or 7 minutes).

 

[TMJ_Jack]

1. Palutena- goddess with glam blaster
2. Everyone else- nerds without glam blasters

 

[BaganSmashBros]

As of this moment, a majority has been reached on all rules that have been proposed. I'm going to repost them for the last time, including some older ones we all go by but have not mentioned:

1. Characters are mostly based on games, but alternate media like anime based off the games can be used if it doesn't contradict the games or isn't in an alternate universe (Sonic Boom). Hierachy of priority: Games > anime/manga > Smash trophy info
2. Characters must obey any PP/FP/BP limits from their games, except for Palutena, which is noted in a separate rule.
   
3. Really a 2A, but anyway: Palutena grants Powers to Pit (presuming they've been found) in Kid Icarus: Uprising, so it makes sense she either can refill said Powers when she runs out or has much higher, undefined limit on the times she can use them.
4. Characters get access to one of every power-up or item they can hold. This also includes the power-ups from the boxes in Sonic (like the Fire Shield) or the power-ups from Mario that he normally can't store (Star). Would not include something like Springs for Sonic.
5. Characters can't not bring allies, but if they are capable of summoning help (Ganondorf making Phantom Ganondorf, Palutena summoning her army of Centurions, etc) that is allowed.
   
6. Characters don't get items/weapons they don't really own and only appeared in one game, a la the Triforce for Ganon (A Link to the Past), Samus's Hyper Beam or the Star Rod for Kirby or Bowser, etc.
   
7. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as Link likes; C) have 3 out at once. Should get all of listed effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
8. Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems
9. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)
   
10. A turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs, or attacks with large cool-down or build-up, like Hyper Beam or Solar Beam respectively in Pokemon.
    
11. Teleport in Kid Icarus, Pokemon and Zelda can be used freely, although Pokemon's has limited uses and Link's involves him setting a warp point the first time he uses it and then the second time he uses it he can either warp there or make where he is using Farore's win a new warp point.
12. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well
13. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs outs, and from there can use one Super Missile in place of 5 missiles.
14. Pokemon only can hold one item.
15. Zelda and Shiek do NOT get their moves from Hyrule Warriors
16. PT gets the 6 Pokemon Red had: Pikachu, Venasaur, Blastoise, Charizard, Snorlax and Lapras.
17. PT can be targeted but you must knock out all 6 of his 'mons to beat him. Killing him won't win the battle.
18. PT can use as many Pokemon as he wants at a time.
19. Pokemon get access too all of their moves instead of just 4.
20. All of PT's Pokemon can Mega Evolve in battle rather than just one.
21. Mewtwo doesn't need help to Mega Evolve; the most recent movie it was in showed that.
22. Characters can't not bring allies, but if they are capable of summoning help (Ganondorf making Phantom Ganondorf, Palutena summoning her army of Centurions, etc) that is allowed.
23. Sonic gets the max of rings he's had in main mode; Chao Garden doesn't count. I believe the most digits a counter has displayed is 4, so he'd only be allowed to carry 9,999 rings. If my math is right, that means he can stay in Super Sonic form for 2 hours and 47 minutes (rounding up). But since he dies if hit without rings, he'd probably want to save some.

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @ BaganSmashBros , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Dastardly Ridleylash , I was thinking we should do a FAQ, for when we get peppered with the inevitable questions/comments like:

• "Robin would win because he/she's a god" FALSE: The Robin that survived at the end had the potential to turn into Grima but that connection was broken at the end of the game when Robin killed Grima.
• "Character X beat [insert strong foe here] so they must be number one" FALSE: what qualifies as strong in one universe may not translate in another. Also, said hero might just be a perfect counter for that villain.

I can't think of anything else, but feel free to add on.

I have nothing to add.

If we're choosing who's the strongest character in Smash, than where should we have the cutoff? Do we cut it off at "characters that appear in matches", which would mean we'd probably have to have Ridley in the tournament, as well, or do we stick to just the playable fighters? If we do have Ridley included, then that complicates things further.

So I suppose I'll just posit the idea; Should we count NPC/Stage-based Fighters as eligible for matchups if they fufill the requirements that would be as such;

• They get treated by the same ruleset that the current fighters abide by (meaning that games take precedence over anime and other material, moves that have limited uses retain limited uses, etc.).
• Any ability that would indefinitely prolong a battle (such as flight, in Ridley's case) or make a battle lopsided (like Mega Laser) would get a limit imposed upon them to keep things fair (like making it so that Ridley can only spend 15 minutes in the air at a time before being forced to land for another 15 minutes, or that Mega Laser would only be active for 6 seconds at a time before being forced into a cooldown period).
• Durability of NPC fighters is defined primarily by their home franchise, specifically the most prominent media in that franchise (so Ridley and Samus use the Metroid games as reference for durability), unless said media is contradictory to itself (like if Ridley died by missile one game and could only be killed by nuclear blasts the next); in which case the more fair alternative takes precedence.
• NPC fighters cannot inflict status conditions (paralysis, burn, etc) for more than 7 turns (or 7 minutes).

I think its better to keep it limited to playable characters.

The Pegasus Boots quote directly refers to speed ("faster than the wind"), and the Bunny Hood is rather self-explanatory.

And Sonic Boom is said to use sound despite it behaving in completly different way and being made of dark and light energy while descriptions for some pokemons are absurd like that snail that is hotter than sun itself and another steel pokemon being able to survive a direct hit from crashing jet/plane/whatever despite weaker attacks being able to damage him. Its better to use what game itself shows, so, someone should make accurate calculations based on how quickly Link passes 10 squares in aLttP rather than its description. Wind doesn't has a set speed either, so, its unreliable.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

BTW, do you think Pokemon attacks would pierce a Landmaster or Arwing? I lean towards yes, but even then I'm not sure the 'mons could physically catch up with them. The Arwings specifically should be able to fly too fast to be hit by the 'mons, although I think Charizard could play defensive and possibly win.

I'd say that Landmaster/Arwing would be pierced after several attacks, but not just one. Or, Greninja using Shadow Sneak could likely go inside it. I agree with Arwing traveling too fast, though.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Another thing about Pokemon; do we use the Pokedex as reference or not? Because, if we use the Pokedex as reference, than Charizard should dominate the entire tournament, since it's fire is able to melt glaciers weighing up to 10,000 tonnes quickly (which would, according to scientific calculations, make it hotter than the Sun...). I think it's pretty obvious that Charizard would dominate any fight it was in simply by using Flamethrower.

I think its better to keep it limited to playable characters.

Alright, that's understandable.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Another thing about Pokemon; do we use the Pokedex as reference or not? Because, if we use the Pokedex as reference, than Charizard should dominate the entire tournament, since it's fire is able to melt glaciers weighing up to 10,000 tonnes quickly (which would, according to scientific calculations, make it hotter than the Sun...). I think it's pretty obvious that Charizard would dominate any fight it was in simply by using Flamethrower.

Pokedex descriptions aren't actually canon, because of the Dragonite/Pidgeot deal.

 

[Crystanium]

Characters must obey any PP/FP/BP limits from their games, except for Palutena, which is noted in a separate rule.

I still think this should only be applicable without actually considering the amount of PP/FP/BP. As I mentioned before, 1 HP or PP, or anything like that might be 100 HP or PP, or whatever in some other series. To even think we're using game mechanics is rather silly when approaching characters at a somewhat more realistic level. Like reaching 0 HP can mean exhaustion or death, 0 PP or the like should be considered as "depleted". Blastoise wouldn't have an unlimited supply of water, for example.

Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)

I think this should be changed. Sound waves from beepboxers and those like them travel incredibly slower by comparison to how fast real sound travels. It's known that games do not portray speeds as they would realistically. Cannonballs on the airship in Mario games travel slower than actual cannonballs, but here's where it gets worse. Mario can jump vertically and drop faster than a cannonball being fired vertically down. If we assume all gravity is equal for all games, then the cannonball should be moving faster than Mario. It does not move faster than him, however.

When it come to characters dodging or moving at a certain speed, I think what really matters is consistency. If we saw Mario dodging or outrunning lightning, we could dismiss this as an outlier because it's not something Mario does consistently. If he dodges or outruns cannonballs (and we know he can dodge and keep up with sound waves), then Mario's speed and reaction time should be considered.

While I'm at it, in Super Metroid, Samus' own super missile outruns her. She never has time to catch up. The way I did this was by using my speed booster and then crouching so I could shinespark. Before I shinesparked, I fired a super missile and then shinesparked immediately after. Samus can never catch up. She can maintain the same speed as her missiles, but they'll outrun her after a second or so. From what I recall, her beams are slower, probably in the sonic or subsonic range.

All of PT's Pokemon can Mega Evolve in battle rather than just one.

Even though he's Fire Red/Leaf Green, which didn't have mega evolution?

 

[Munomario777]

And if the fireballs don't finish off the enemy in one hit (Bowser, Bowser Jr., Koopa Troopas even), it doesn't show any sort of burning effect.

Bowser lives after falling in lava game after game, so this isn't really a surprise. He also uses many fire attacks, which would make him a Fire type in Pokemon terms, and those aren't inflicted with the burn effect. Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings are Bowser's children, so it makes sense that they would share this trait. Since Bowser and the Koopa Troopas are similar species, it can be assumed that they both share this trait (although to a lesser extent, since lava will kill a Koopa Troopa). IIRC, Fire Flowers do kill Koopa Troopas, but I'd have to go back to the games to check.

In order for the Master Sword to receive power, the two sages have to pray for the gods to infuse their power with the sword. Take away the gods, the sword can't be powered anymore.

A) The sages and gods don't have to be nearby to power the Master Sword (but I'll get to that in a minute). B) In Wind Waker, two sages in disguise (I won't tell who they are to avoid spoilers) stay at the end of their respective dungeons to pray for the gods to return the Master Sword's power. When the game is finished, they are seen outside of those dungeons (i.e. not praying), and yet the Master Sword is still at full power.

In this situation, Alvis wouldn't actually be in the arena, nor would Shulk be telling him to do anything, nor would Alvis be doing anything on purpose. Shulk would just be using the power that Alvis emits, and not Alvis himself.

Shulk has not used his god powers without Alvis nearby. Since Alvis is powering these god powers, we cannot assume that he could do so from a distance (as in, not in the arena) unless he has been shown doing so in the game.

Shulk has the power to decide the fate of the universe. As in, it's something he possesses, as an ability. The reason Shulk told Alvis to reset the universe was most likely just because he wasn't experienced himself. Saying that the ability to reset the universe is the ability to tell Alvis to reset the universe just shows that Alvis does whatever Shulk wants him to do, basically like an item.

A flashlight has the ability to shine a concentrated beam of light, but it cannot function without a battery.

Just because Alvis obeys Shulk doesn't mean that he's an item. Koopa Troopas and Goombas obey Bowser, but they are allies, not items, and are not allowed here.

You're just repeating yourself.

You said that fairies cannot be harmed because Link cannot harm NPCs, so I pointed out some of the instances of fairies being immune to attacks not coming from Link.

I'd expect the artwork to look like that with Link's standard equipment.

Also noteworthy are the many instances in-game where Link has every item possible, and yet they're not visible on his character model.

That's not what I'm saying. I only brought up the legends because it's a key point in all Zelda games. I wouldn't be surprised if Impa is the steward of the king of Hyrule and if he looks to her cousel. Of course it's possible for Zelda to become wiser than Impa. The point is, why didn't the goddess Nayru grant Impa the Triforce of Wisdom if it's granted to those who are wise? I'd say it's because she doesn't have the blood of the goddess. After all, Impa is merely a servant.

Perhaps.

I'm sure Impa was simply apprehensive of sending off something that's been part of the Royal Family to a young man. While Zelda's choice was wise, Impa did not continue to question Zelda after Zelda explained.

True.

It was merely analogous in that you could submerge something in high temperature multiple times without it being unaffected. We don't know how hot the lava is, so we work with a low-end, meaning it's 700°C, unless you want to prove that it's higher.

Okay, let's see. According to this source, "when rock is seriously melting, such as the magma within the Hawaiian volcano of Kilauea , it can reach [1160 degrees Celsius], according to USGS." Looking up an image of the lava inside of the volcano Kilauea, I found this:

Now, there's a lot of lava throughout Wind Waker, but seeing as how we're comparing volcanoes here, I thought it would be best to go with Dragon Roost Cavern (the fire dungeon inside a volcano). Here's an image of the lava in that area:

Notice the bright, sort of yellow-orange color to the lava. This is similar to the bright area in the top image (around the upper right area). Since orange and yellow are generally hotter than red color-wise, we can conclude that the lava in Wind Waker is at least on par with Kilauea, or around 1160 degrees Celsius.

In the video, the debris being sucked in looks about to be at least 10 meters.

And what is the range for sucking in enemies and the like?

Not even a second. It's somewhere between 400 to 500 milliseconds, but the accel charges would make the time considerably shorter.

I see.

Yes, but "faster than wind" could mean greater than 1 m/s, so . . .

By that logic, "faster than a speeding bullet" could mean a bullet travelling fifteen miles per hour on a road with a ten mile per hour speed limit.

23. Sonic gets the max of rings he's had in main mode; Chao Garden doesn't count. I believe the most digits a counter has displayed is 4, so he'd only be allowed to carry 9,999 rings. If my math is right, that means he can stay in Super Sonic form for 2 hours and 47 minutes (rounding up). But since he dies if hit without rings, he'd probably want to save some.

I don't think that everyone has voted on this. I also ask for a recount, since I don't feel this takes into account the effects this would have on the discussion as a whole. If we're not counting Chao Garden, then we should also exclude other minigames and such from this discussion. That includes:

• Sub-games from the Kirby series (notable changes from excluding this include the removal of Megaton Punch, Milky Way Wishes's measurement of the Warp Star's speed, and such).
• Minigames from the Mario series.
• Minigames from the Zelda series (notable changes include the Auction's exclusive Piece of Heart, Sword Training being removed so Link isn't skilled with a sword (or extra techniques such as the Hurricane Spin), and such).
• Special Stages from the Sonic series (this is where Sonic gets the Chaos Emeralds in his games, so if we remove this, Sonic doesn't get the Chaos Emeralds; also worth noting is that both the Special Stages and Chao Garden are accessed by finding something inside of the stage (for Special Stages, it's fifty Rings in most games or in some games a special key and such, while for the Chao Garden, it's a special key found in each stage)).
• Et cetera, et cetera.

With that said, @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @Reckless Godwin 2.0, @ BaganSmashBros , @everyone else, should we keep minigames and such in, or should we exclude them?

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @ BaganSmashBros , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Dastardly Ridleylash , I was thinking we should do a FAQ, for when we get peppered with the inevitable questions/comments like:

• "Robin would win because he/she's a god" FALSE: The Robin that survived at the end had the potential to turn into Grima but that connection was broken at the end of the game when Robin killed Grima.
• "Character X beat [insert strong foe here] so they must be number one" FALSE: what qualifies as strong in one universe may not translate in another. Also, said hero might just be a perfect counter for that villain.

I can't think of anything else, but feel free to add on.

Sounds good. I don't have anything to add (except for perhaps the Shulk/Alvis deal), but this is a good idea.

Only sometimes. Outside of Willow Wisp, most fire attacks have like a 10% chance of inflicting burn.

So Mario shoots ten fireballs at Mewtwo.

 

[Crystanium]

You said that fairies cannot be harmed because Link cannot harm NPCs, so I pointed out some of the instances of fairies being immune to attacks not coming from Link.

And you think NPCs from Kakariko Village would be harmed if they were in the same situation?

Okay, let's see. According to this source, "when rock is seriously melting, such as the magma within the Hawaiian volcano of Kilauea , it can reach [1160 degrees Celsius], according to USGS." Looking up an image of the lava inside of the volcano Kilauea, I found this:

Now, there's a lot of lava throughout Wind Waker, but seeing as how we're comparing volcanoes here, I thought it would be best to go with Dragon Roost Cavern (the fire dungeon inside a volcano). Here's an image of the lava in that area:

Notice the bright, sort of yellow-orange color to the lava. This is similar to the bright area in the top image (around the upper right area). Since orange and yellow are generally hotter than red color-wise, we can conclude that the lava in Wind Waker is at least on par with Kilauea, or around 1160 degrees Celsius.

Here's an image from the HD version when Link enters this room of Dragon Roost Cavern.

There are your typical hot spots, which you can find from actual magma, but you wouldn't consider the entirety of it as that temperature. This link shows the temperature of lava and it looks like the dark orange portions (which make up most of the magma) are around 1,300 K (1,026°C). I'll be fine with working at a temperature greater than 700°C since you gave your reasoning.

And what is the range for sucking in enemies and the like?

In the video, assuming space pirates are at least 7 feet tall (considering they're taller than Samus), maybe 14 feet. The aerotrooper on the right of the one who was hit with the darkburst isn't even touching the rift and ends up getting pulled in. I can only use that as an example since that's what I see in the video. I'll have to test it myself.

I see.

By that logic, "faster than a speeding bullet" could mean a bullet travelling fifteen miles per hour on a road with a ten mile per hour speed limit.

Considering that's a simile, you'd be right.

I don't think that everyone has voted on this. I also ask for a recount, since I don't feel this takes into account the effects this would have on the discussion as a whole. If we're not counting Chao Garden, then we should also exclude other minigames and such from this discussion. That includes:

• Sub-games from the Kirby series (notable changes from excluding this include the removal of Megaton Punch, Milky Way Wishes's measurement of the Warp Star's speed, and such).
• Minigames from the Mario series.
• Minigames from the Zelda series (notable changes include the Auction's exclusive Piece of Heart, Sword Training being removed so Link isn't skilled with a sword (or extra techniques such as the Hurricane Spin), and such).
• Special Stages from the Sonic series (this is where Sonic gets the Chaos Emeralds in his games, so if we remove this, Sonic doesn't get the Chaos Emeralds; also worth noting is that both the Special Stages and Chao Garden are accessed by finding something inside of the stage (for Special Stages, it's fifty Rings in most games or in some games a special key and such, while for the Chao Garden, it's a special key found in each stage)).
• Et cetera, et cetera.

With that said, @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @Reckless Godwin 2.0, @ BaganSmashBros , @everyone else, should we keep minigames and such in, or should we exclude them?

I'm fine dismissing minigames. They're not part of the main story.

Edit: I didn't even know this could be done! Samus kills Vorash with a good chunk of health left simply by throwing it and having it slam against the wall! Damn, Samus! Now I wonder if I can find out how much stronger she is!