Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[BaganSmashBros]

Actually, the first option would still allow Olimar/Pokémon Trainer to use others, because they're part of the character in Smash. The fourth option allows things like Shulk getting Alvis, because Alvis is where Shulk's power comes from.

Oh. Well, then im still on 1st one.

 

[Munomario777]

vs
RULES!

Spoiler

1) The battlefield is a 10x10x10 mile area made of concrete surrounded by a 15x15x15 casing of completely indestructible material (so no running away)

2) If a character is forced into a situation in that they cannot retaliate, the match should be treated as a stalemate until decided on by the people

3) A vote is in order when a controversy with equally valid points is not resolved.

4) Any sort of limited resource (be it PP, ammo, etc) should stay limited, and cooldowns should be represented to as great an extent as possible.

5) Certain gameplay mechanics such as invincibility frames, collision detection, and certain boundary oddities should be ignored

6) If something is an ability of the character, it has place in discussion no matter how obscene or illogical

7a) Any abilities that the character has access to that usually can't be used, changed, or stored (class changing, weapon changing, abilities, power-ups) can.

7b) However, these what-if scenarios should adhere to other attributes of the character (Rosalina can only have one of each power, Kirby can't copy enemies because he's using copy essences, etc)

7c) With equipment like Shulk's Ether Gems or Pokémon held items, a standard should be established.

8) The standard hierarchy of discussion should be:
In game-lore >/= Gameplay > Alternate canon > Real world logic >>>>>>>> Assumptions

9) A claim backed by no physical evidence has no place in court in this discussion

10a) In the situation that two conflicting pieces of evidence have equal hierarchal status, whatever is the more common example gets precedence

10b) In the case that two conflicting pieces of evidence have equal hierarchal status and amount of appearances, then whatever makes the character stronger gets precedence

FIGHT!!!
Quick Comparison
Max Speed-probably around 1,235 km per hour with the speed booster and around 3 times faster with the shinespark
1,350 km per hour with the Brawler Claws + some movement upgrades
Defense- Powerful body armor that absorbs seemingly all blunt force so ZSS isn't harmed. Can heal via Concentration
Rather frail defenses that can be boosted through certain weapon upgrades. Enters a crisis mode ___________when extremely low on health
Mobility-Shinespark allows for a wide range of movement as well as the space jump for aerial movement
Wings of Pegasus and the GST grant flight

OK! Now on to the meat of the discussion
Attacker: Pit
's attack: Laser Staff
The Laser Staff has a giant range (up to 123.2 meters) and gets to that range very quickly, it's rapid fire attack hits from 66.6 meters away and doesn't cause any knockback
's counter: Speed Booster
Samus can exploit the Laser Staff's lack of homing by using the speed booster to run away from the staff's shots

's attack: Brawler Claws
With the Brawler Claws, Pit can reach 1,350 km per hour to easily catch Samus and use the weapon's powerful melee attacks to harm her
's counter: Shinespark/Zoning
Samus would quickly realize that she's being bested in the speed department but she has a few ways to counter this.

• Samus could charge the Shinespark after running for long enough, the sudden stop would cause Pit (who has no effective braking method) to overshoot his target making him easy picking for the Shinespark
• Samus could exploit the poor range of the Brawler Claws by shooting at Pit while he runs, slowing him down significantly

's attack: Ogre Club + Wings of Pegasus
By taking to the skies, the ogre club's reflection abilities are significantly increased allowing Pit to close in on Samus safely and use their powerful melee to attack her
's counter: Screw Attack/Shinespark
Samus would be quick to realize her ranged attacks are useless, so she could just wait for Pit to get close and use the Screw Attack to attack him. Alternatively she could just use the Shinespark to charge him

's attack: Guardian Orbitars
These orbitars charge shots fire protective shields to block enemy fire, while the rapid fire shoots small powerful shots
's counter: Hyper Beam
The Hyper Beam's high fire rate would quickly overwhelm Pit's defense giving him no time to retaliate

's attack: Three Sacred Treasures
A combination of the Arrows of Light, Mirror Shield, and Wings of Pegasus that have powerful homing charge shots, quick rapid fire with great homing, and decent melee power. The mirror shield is a mediocre source of defense.
's counter: Speed Booster
Samus could easily avoid the shots by running from them, and then close in and attack

's attack: Great Sacred Treasure
A giant mech suit with multiple forms, though the first is the most powerful. It can shoot a storm of arrows, a large explosion, flaming shots, electric shots, water, tornadoes, large balls of fire and electricity, energy balls with a vacuum effect, a large laser, a giant laser that takes a while to charge up but instantly kills everything in it's range, fly, teleport, and execute a charging attack. Geez...
's counter: Oh boy...
So as for the storm of arrows and the huge explosion, Samus would probably be moving at the time anyway so these would probably miss...probably. All of the other attacks could easily be avoided, especially the huge laser. While Pit was charging the laser she could use a combination of the space jump and grapple beam to scale the mech and attack the defenseless Pit.

This is looking pretty bad for our angel here...

Attacker: Samus

's attack: Hyper Beam
A powerful, rapid fire beam that goes through walls and does not need to be charged in any way
's counter: N/A
Pit could dodge the beams for a while, but he'd quickly tire out and get hit quite a bit. The shots would kill him quickly

's attack: Power Bomb
A full screen explosion, nothing to see here
's counter: N/A
There's no way Pit could dodge this, the explosion would roast him.

Is there much need to continue?

In just these two attacks Pit is already beaten. Samus has other weapons in her arsenal but she doesn't need them here. Pit may seem like a solid contender on paper but he seems to be outgunned and outsmarted in this match.

Winner: Samus
I don't think Palutena will be happy about this...

Nice! I'll add it to the bracket shortly.

Alvis is to the Monados as Fi is to the Master Sword, so Alvis is included. You should have Shulk replicate feats from the other two Monado wielders before resetting the universe though.

When exactly is it shown/said that Alvis is part of the Monado, as in the sword?

Does that mean you have to take away the Monado as well?

Nah, just Alvis.

Kirby can create allies out of copy abilities as seen in Kirby Superstar, so he technically isn’t summoning them.

But they are allies.

Where does this 3 Days nonsense come from? The moon crashes in 3 days but that doesn’t mean the Chateau Romani will wear off in 3 days.

The Gossip Stones in Majora's Mask describe Chateau Romani as the following: "It seems that drinking Chateau Romani makes your magic power last for three days..."

We shouldn’t be basing Sonic’s Ring total on some optional Mini-game. We should use the highest held total in a combat situation. If we used your logic Link’s Magic Armor can run off Rupees stored in a bank!

Link is not holding the Rupees stored in a bank; they're at a separate building. Meanwhile, Sonic is holding all of those Rings, on his person. We know this because A) there doesn't seem to be any kind of credit card scanner at the Black Market (where the Rings are spent), so Sonic is definitely paying in cash here, and B) Sonic doesn't have to make return trips to get more Rings from a bank or anything.

I enjoy the thought of kicking Sonic when he’s down(He’s my younger brother’s main and he never seems to lose).

And why exactly is that a reason for us to nerf him?

Alvis is as much a Homs as TP Link is a Wolf. Deities of his power are perfectly capable of assuming false identities. Removing Alvis effectively means depowering Shulk as he gets his powers from him.

Okay then, he's a deity. That doesn't make him any less of an ally to Shulk. You can't depower Shulk if he never had those powers in the first place (Alvis did).

You do realize the problems that stem from heavy armor isn’t weight but from overheating right? This will get quite detrimental in extended battles.

Good point.

Shulk never summons Alvis, as Alvis is already there in the form of the Monado.

Again, when is Alvis revealed to be part of the Monado sword?

When I write up Shulk’s cutscene feats how should I order them? Chronologically or by Type(aka Strength, Reflex, Durability)?
I’ll put up rebuttals for Shulk vs Sonic and Mario when I’m done with that.

I'd recommend going by type, so it's better organized and all.

His clothes are your typical dungarees. There's nothing particularly beneficial about his clothes. However, I was suggesting he be given the super suit. I'd like to find out what he's immune to with that as far as elemental attacks go.

Yes, that would be helpful to have.

I'd agree that the bombs separately are more powerful because the damage is taken individually. I think the health system is fine the way it is, but only because it's been the type of health system that's been used all this time. I do not doubt that Nintendo could make it so each heart represents 5 parts instead of 4. (I am defining "heart parts" as the parts that make up the whole. As you know, one heart on-screen represents 4/4, so if Link loses one heart part, he'll have a total of 3/4 left.)

In TP, for example, Link is required to collect 5 heart pieces rather than 4, which is the typical amount in all other Zelda games. It might be easier to go with even numbers if you're going to break them apart in halves or quarters, though. Then again, if you halved a heart, Link would have lost 2.5 heart parts instead of 2 heart parts. So maybe that's not really the issue for why Link has a total of four heart parts.

I wasn't really referring to the amount of pieces a heart will split up into (although that could be the reason for these odd damage values, as I've explained before), but rather the way that the damage is registered. That said, I prefer to use in-universe explanations instead of ones that rely on it being just a game (i.e. video game logic, gameplay mechanics, etc.) in cases like this, and the one I provided earlier (the Magic Armor treating many attacks the same) seems believable enough IMHO.

Anyway, of course, we can't call a conclusion on the matter until everyone has voted, but out of interest I decided to redo my calculations based on the eight bombs/two hearts ratio:

• 3.14 TNT tons for the Seeker Missile
• 1.3 TNT tons for the eight bombs, which deal 2 hearts
• Magic Armor blocks 1.3 of the 3.14 from the Seeker Missile, leaving 1.84, or about 1.5x the eight bombs
• Seeker Missile deals 3 hearts with the Magic Armor, so Link could survive about 6 Seeker Missiles
• Blue + Red Rings = 1/8 original damage
• Seeker Missile now deals .375 hearts, so Link could survive about 53 Seeker Missiles
• Shield Spell = 1/2 original damage
• Seeker Missile now deals .1875 hearts, so Link could survive about 106 Seeker Missiles
• Enhanced Defense = 1/2 original damage
• Seeker Missile now deals .09375 hearts, so Link could survive about 213 Seeker Missiles
• Since Samus can hold up to 255 Missiles, and each Seeker Missile requires four regular Missiles (or much more if using Super Missiles instead), Samus wouldn't be able to fire enough at Link to kill him before running out. Sure, she could use Concentration, but good luck concentrating on restoring your Missiles when a green-clad elf man is slashing away at your armor with a sword.
• Of course, Link's various health restoration items such as potions, elixir soup, and fairies in bottles would increase his durability even more.

Acceleration is defined as speeding up, slowing down, or changing direction. Terminal velocity is when the falling object reaches a force and the air resistance pushing upward reaches a force that makes the net force zero. (Surprisingly, I defined that correctly. I feel proud of myself.) If I'm understanding this correctly, that means the air density would have to be much higher. If that happened, it'd be much cooler. At 0°C, air density is 1.292 kg/m^3. At -25°C, it's 1.422. So if Link fell 10 meters and reached terminal velocity, how high do you think the air density would be? How cold do you think Hyrule would be?

I personally think this requires too many assumptions, which we don't want. We want as few assumptions as possible and with those assumptions, we want to make sure it makes sense. An earlier terminal velocity would not explain it. I think what's actually happening is this. The developers have created a type of gravity for the game. This gravity is set in a way so that any drop will not have Link accelerate as he falls. Rather than an early terminal velocity, it's an instant terminal velocity because Link is not speeding up. This is all because the game is programmed that way. It's a game mechanic. Simple, fewer assumptions, and reasonable.

While it very well could be a game mechanic, another possible explanation would be lower gravity in the Zeldaverse. I won't go into the calculations or anything, though; just throwing it out there.

It might, assuming Link knows what Samus is doing in the first place. It might seem unusual for someone to change into a ball. Anyway, with all accel charges, Samus' charge for the power bomb takes almost a second, but somewhere between 800 and 900 milliseconds. This is much faster than what you saw in the video I linked you, though. However, for Samus charge beam, it's nigh-instantaneous. Well, at least to us who respond to things by milliseconds.

Since Link would likely survive the first Power Bomb blast with the Magic Armor + his other defensive upgrades, he'd likely last long enough to catch on. As for the Charge Beam, it seems to have a bit of charge time to it, and my sources say that it deals similar damage to that of a regular Missile.

I'm not considering the way Mario behaves in Super Smash Bros., though. Unless Mario isn't wearing something else on his back, it'll be fine for him to wear anyway. The downfall is running out of water, so I'm not sure if it'll be useful in battle.

Oh, the Rocket Nozzle and such aren't in Smash; I was just referring to it to give you an idea of what I'm talking about (because let's face it, more people have probably played Smash than Mario Sunshine ). As for running out of water, if he can get some free time, I'd imagine he could do something with the Ice Flower and his natural pyrokinesis to create water and refill.

I only find magic and psychic abilities similar in that if for example, a mage cast fire magic, that magic would be manipulating nature in a way to cause the atoms to produce a flame. I suspect someone who knows pyrokinesis would do something similar, only with his/her mind. Magic is more supernatural, psychic is more paranormal. Of course, that might mean nothing, since "supernatural" is from the Latin, meaning "above nature", whereas paranormal just means "beyond normal". So the semantics might not really matter. Ghosts are considered supernatural and paranormal, so yeah.

Anyway, I'm not sure what Magikoopas are capable of doing. If they've never demonstrated the ability to mind control, then I would disregard them. I suspect Mario can be mind controlled, but as far as I'm aware, Mewtwo isn't capable of doing that, so it's not really an issue. I'll be more than happy to defend Mario along with you, if you want me to. I've been thinking about defending Mario. After all, I've been wanting to see how the Nintendo Trinity (Mario, Link, and Samus) does against one another.

Magikoopas, besides their regular "shape magic" blasts commonly seen in the games, actually have a few psychic powers that are a bit more... obscure. Take, for example, Kamek, Bowser's effective second-in-command. This elite Magikoopa has some tricks up its sleeve. Kamek possesses psychic powers such as foreseeing the future, telekinesis, and most interestingly, brainwashing. Yeah, that would have come in handy when fighting the Mario Brothers. To fully convey my point, we'll need a bit of a history lesson. Kamek's first full-blown, starring role in a game was in the original Yoshi's Island, where he served as Baby Bowser's babysitter-slash-minion, trying to capture Baby Mario from the Yoshis. Kamek didn't use his mind control to make things easier when it certainly could have. However, this is understandable since Baby Mario wouldn't remember much (he was just born-I mean, brought in by the stork), and Yoshi is pretty much an animal. A rather intelligent animal, but an animal nonetheless. However, in New Super Mario Bros. Wii (and U), Kamek meets Mario and co. multiple times throughout the game. Rather than brainwashing him, however, Kamek simply does some magic stuff in the arena or on Bowser (or dresses up like a girl in a dress). A similar thing happens in the intro to Super Mario Galaxy, where Kamek knocks Mario away from Peach's abducted castle rather than brainwashing him. Now, this could be dismissed as Kamek's brainwashing not being as strong as Mewtwo's (I'm not aware of any actual proof for that claim, but I'm just covering all possible angles). However, what is inexcusable is the events (or lack thereof) in Mario and Luigi: Dream Team. Basically, Kamek follows the Mario Brothers into Luigi's dreams. That's right, Kamek is literally inside of Luigi's mind and still doesn't use his power of brainwashing that he's clearly demonstrated in the past. If that doesn't demonstrate a resistance to influences on the mind, then I don't know what does.

Awesome. So maybe Pokemon Trainer could have Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise as his main three? (This would at least put Pokemon Trainer at his optimal level.) I would think adding three more would be good as well, just because all trainers can hold up to six. I think we'd all have to vote on what those other three Pokemon would be, though. Pikachu might be another viable option.

I'm fine with fully evolving the three Pokemon, but I don't think that we should include ones that aren't actually in Smash.

I agree.

Glad we're on the same page.

Actually, Ganondorf would be able to use the full Triforce. How do you think the dark world came to be in ALttP? The way it was explained in OoT might need a bit more clarification. I don't want to spoil this next part, so I'll put it in a spoiler tag. Read at your discretion.

It doesn't say that Ganon made a wish with the Triforce, though. It just says that he claimed the Triforce, killed his followers, and darkness was drawn into the Sacred Realm. A likely explanation for this is that the Sacred Realm, being connected to the Triforce, is influenced in some way by whoever holds it. That or Ganon is just that evil. Even if Ganondorf did get the Triforce, though, he wouldn't be able to make wishes and such, because he doesn't have an equal balance of power, wisdom, and courage.

Spoiler

In Skyward Sword, Link proved himself worthy after passing the three trials that he actually came into possession of the Triforce and technically, it was part of him. He made a wish (probably a prayer or a thought, since he closes his eyes) to kill Demise and Demise was killed by being crushed.

Spoiler

I don't see anything about it being "a part of him." He made a wish on it, but that doesn't mean that it belongs to him.

Rather than PT being unable to be harmed because he's at a distance, I think for him, we should at least allow some form of honor. It seems to be the case for Japan (and possibly other Asian countries). If that seems to be a problem, then let's take it as, "I know I could kill PT, but that would be too easy. I want a challenge so I'll take on his Pokemon." Tell me what you guys think.

I don't think it should be a rule, but I could see some of the characters doing that due to their personalities. As I've stated in the past, I could see Pokemon Trainer being rather interesting to do matchups for, and having a sort of tower-defense style to him.

Man, this is the longest post I've had to write in a long time all because I had 8 people either quote, tag, or like my posts.

Ikr

Rocket Nozzle is gone. Mewtwo could easily use Hyper Beam to destroy the fire projectile, also hitting Mario in the process.

Okay, then Mario can just use the Cape Feather. As for Hyper Beam, it's still affected by Protect and such, so anything that makes Mario invincible would work here (including the Statue Leaf, Lucky Bell, etc.).

Like Dryn said, magic is supernatural, while psionics are paranormal. We should just agree to dismiss this part of the debate, though.

I recommend that you read my analysis on the subject that I just wrote, earlier in this post (it's the part about Kamek and such). That said, I'm fine with dropping the mind control discussion if you'd like to.

Rocket Nozzle is gone.

Cape Feather.

And Mewtwo strikes him out of the sky with a few Aura Spheres, Psystrikes, or Thunders.

Unless Mario uses an invincibility item (or just dodges the attacks, since the Cape Feather allows for a good amount of agility).

 

[Crystanium]

Anyway, of course, we can't call a conclusion on the matter until everyone has voted, but out of interest I decided to redo my calculations based on the eight bombs/two hearts ratio:

• 3.14 TNT tons for the Seeker Missile
• 1.3 TNT tons for the eight bombs, which deal 2 hearts
• Magic Armor blocks 1.3 of the 3.14 from the Seeker Missile, leaving 1.84, or about 1.5x the eight bombs
• Seeker Missile deals 3 hearts with the Magic Armor, so Link could survive about 6 Seeker Missiles
• Blue + Red Rings = 1/8 original damage
• Seeker Missile now deals .375 hearts, so Link could survive about 53 Seeker Missiles
• Shield Spell = 1/2 original damage
• Seeker Missile now deals .1875 hearts, so Link could survive about 106 Seeker Missiles
• Enhanced Defense = 1/2 original damage
• Seeker Missile now deals .09375 hearts, so Link could survive about 213 Seeker Missiles
• Since Samus can hold up to 255 Missiles, and each Seeker Missile requires four regular Missiles (or much more if using Super Missiles instead), Samus wouldn't be able to fire enough at Link to kill him before running out. Sure, she could use Concentration, but good luck concentrating on restoring your Missiles when a green-clad elf man is slashing away at your armor with a sword.
• Of course, Link's various health restoration items such as potions, elixir soup, and fairies in bottles would increase his durability even more.

You're still working on what I've demonstrated to be a game mechanic. Anyway, wearing the red ring make Link's tunic turn red, indicating this ring only applies to his tunic, not to any other part of his body. This is what happens when Link wears the blue ring before that. It's similar to the blue mail and red mail in ALttP. This not proof that Link is more durable against missiles. Chain mail was truly only effective against slash and some thrust attacks. Samus doesn't wield a blade.

Shield spell is just like the red ring and red mail. It changes Link's tunic red, meaning it's only affecting his tunic, nothing else. Maybe this part of Link's body will be more durable, but like Mario's super suit, if his head is exposed, it's not going to matter how much defense Link has increased. Also, if Samus needed to use concentration, she could easily outrun Link. Perhaps you missed my last calculation about the power bomb? On a low-end, it would produce 289.89 tons of TNT. On a high-end, 2.32 kilotons of TNT.

While it very well could be a game mechanic, another possible explanation would be lower gravity in the Zeldaverse. I won't go into the calculations or anything, though; just throwing it out there.

It'd be hard to get injured from falling with lower gravity.

Since Link would likely survive the first Power Bomb blast with the Magic Armor + his other defensive upgrades, he'd likely last long enough to catch on. As for the Charge Beam, it seems to have a bit of charge time to it, and my sources say that it deals similar damage to that of a regular Missile.

Assuming the first one won't kill him, which I have no reason to think it'll fail to do that.

Oh, the Rocket Nozzle and such aren't in Smash; I was just referring to it to give you an idea of what I'm talking about (because let's face it, more people have probably played Smash than Mario Sunshine ). As for running out of water, if he can get some free time, I'd imagine he could do something with the Ice Flower and his natural pyrokinesis to create water and refill.

Interesting. All right, sounds feasible.

Magikoopas, besides their regular "shape magic" blasts commonly seen in the games, actually have a few psychic powers that are a bit more... obscure. Take, for example, Kamek, Bowser's effective second-in-command. This elite Magikoopa has some tricks up its sleeve. Kamek possesses psychic powers such as foreseeing the future, telekinesis, and most interestingly, brainwashing. Yeah, that would have come in handy when fighting the Mario Brothers. To fully convey my point, we'll need a bit of a history lesson. Kamek's first full-blown, starring role in a game was in the original Yoshi's Island, where he served as Baby Bowser's babysitter-slash-minion, trying to capture Baby Mario from the Yoshis. Kamek didn't use his mind control to make things easier when it certainly could have. However, this is understandable since Baby Mario wouldn't remember much (he was just born-I mean, brought in by the stork), and Yoshi is pretty much an animal. A rather intelligent animal, but an animal nonetheless. However, in New Super Mario Bros. Wii (and U), Kamek meets Mario and co. multiple times throughout the game. Rather than brainwashing him, however, Kamek simply does some magic stuff in the arena or on Bowser (or dresses up like a girl in a dress). A similar thing happens in the intro to Super Mario Galaxy, where Kamek knocks Mario away from Peach's abducted castle rather than brainwashing him. Now, this could be dismissed as Kamek's brainwashing not being as strong as Mewtwo's (I'm not aware of any actual proof for that claim, but I'm just covering all possible angles). However, what is inexcusable is the events (or lack thereof) in Mario and Luigi: Dream Team. Basically, Kamek follows the Mario Brothers into Luigi's dreams. That's right, Kamek is literally inside of Luigi's mind and still doesn't use his power of brainwashing that he's clearly demonstrated in the past. If that doesn't demonstrate a resistance to influences on the mind, then I don't know what does.

Well, remember, it was Yoshi who was the one trying to reunite Baby Mario with his brother, so the mind control would have been focused on Yoshi instead. I'm not sure how smart a Yoshi is, but in Donkey Kong Country Returns, DK cannot be mind controlled because he's not very bright, so maybe Yoshis are the same way. Maybe I missed the part in your explanation on why you think Mario is immune to being mind controlled, but I haven't seen it here yet. I'm not sure what Kamek's intention was to enter Luigi's dream. My point, as you know, is that if Luigi can be mind controlled, then Mario can probably also be mind controlled. I haven't seen Mewtwo mind control anyone aside from the movie, so I'm personally dismissing that. Therefore, we don't have to worry about Mario being mind controlled.

I'm fine with fully evolving the three Pokemon, but I don't think that we should include ones that aren't actually in Smash.

Well, this is being true to canon, not true to smash. I think the three starters and Pikachu are a good choice. I'm just not sure who the other two Pokemon PT would have.

It doesn't say that Ganon made a wish with the Triforce, though. It just says that he claimed the Triforce, killed his followers, and darkness was drawn into the Sacred Realm. A likely explanation for this is that the Sacred Realm, being connected to the Triforce, is influenced in some way by whoever holds it. That or Ganon is just that evil. Even if Ganondorf did get the Triforce, though, he wouldn't be able to make wishes and such, because he doesn't have an equal balance of power, wisdom, and courage.

"One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twilight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. It a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way pass his followers in lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood-stained hands. He heard a whispered voice, 'If thou hast a strong desire or dream, wish for it . . .' And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. [. . .] I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army." A Link to the Past manual, p. 5

Ganondorf made a wish and has had the Triforce in his possession two other times.

Spoiler

I don't see anything about it being "a part of him." He made a wish on it, but that doesn't mean that it belongs to him.

Spoiler

It comes out of him.

[/quote]

 

[Munomario777]

You're still working on what I've demonstrated to be a game mechanic.

Again, I'm using hearts to demonstrate how much of a beating Link can take.

Anyway, wearing the red ring make Link's tunic turn red, indicating this ring only applies to his tunic, not to any other part of his body. This is what happens when Link wears the blue ring before that. It's similar to the blue mail and red mail in ALttP. This not proof that Link is more durable against missiles. Chain mail was truly only effective against slash and some thrust attacks. Samus doesn't wield a blade.

Shield spell is just like the red ring and red mail. It changes Link's tunic red, meaning it's only affecting his tunic, nothing else. Maybe this part of Link's body will be more durable, but like Mario's super suit, if his head is exposed, it's not going to matter how much defense Link has increased. Also, if Samus needed to use concentration, she could easily outrun Link.

Just because an item changes the color of Link's clothes doesn't mean that it only affects that area. For example, the Fire Flower only colors Mario's overalls and shirt differently, while the hat is still red. However, he can still survive another hit from that area, and the Fire Flower still takes effect. Another example includes Rayman Legends, where hit points are represented by hearts floating beside Rayman and co., and they protect from a hit despite being nowhere near the point of impact (a similar principle applies with Crash Bandicoot's masks).

Perhaps you missed my last calculation about the power bomb? On a low-end, it would produce 289.89 tons of TNT. On a high-end, 2.32 kilotons of TNT.

After getting hit the first time by a power bomb, he would likely know what's coming and could thus use the Magic Cape the next time to avoid it. The Power Bomb wouldn't completely finish Link off either, since he has a fairy in a bottle to revive him.

It'd be hard to get injured from falling with lower gravity.

Lower gravity to the point where Link gets injured a little bit (a quarter heart, to be specific), but still reaches terminal velocity relatively soon.

Assuming the first one won't kill him, which I have no reason to think it'll fail to do that.

Fairy in a bottle.

Interesting. All right, sounds feasible.

Glad we're on the same page.

Well, remember, it was Yoshi who was the one trying to reunite Baby Mario with his brother, so the mind control would have been focused on Yoshi instead. I'm not sure how smart a Yoshi is, but in Donkey Kong Country Returns, DK cannot be mind controlled because he's not very bright, so maybe Yoshis are the same way. Maybe I missed the part in your explanation on why you think Mario is immune to being mind controlled, but I haven't seen it here yet. I'm not sure what Kamek's intention was to enter Luigi's dream. My point, as you know, is that if Luigi can be mind controlled, then Mario can probably also be mind controlled. I haven't seen Mewtwo mind control anyone aside from the movie, so I'm personally dismissing that. Therefore, we don't have to worry about Mario being mind controlled.

The part that implies Mario's resistance to mind influences is when Kamek doesn't use it at the best opportunities. I'm always hesitant about using Paper Mario in this context, due to the many differences between it and the main series. Anyway, I'm fine with dismissing mind control altogether.

Well, this is being true to canon, not true to smash. I think the three starters and Pikachu are a good choice. I'm just not sure who the other two Pokemon PT would have.

Yes, but in Smash, Pokemon Trainer consists of the characters of the Trainer himself, Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. I agree that we should take the best case scenario for the characters, but not if that means introducing new ones altogether.

"One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twilight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. It a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way pass his followers in lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood-stained hands. He heard a whispered voice, 'If thou hast a strong desire or dream, wish for it . . .' And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. [. . .] I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army." A Link to the Past manual, p. 5

Ganondorf made a wish and has had the Triforce in his possession two other times.

And in Ocarina of Time, it's stated that Ganondorf cannot make a wish with the Triforce. I prefer to use in-game examples over instruction manuals (especially ones that come from the NES/SNES era), because otherwise, Bowser turned the Toads into "horse tail plants", and heck, Samus is a boy.

Spoiler

It comes out of him.

Spoiler: Not sure why this needs a spoiler, but why not

Power Stars come out of Mario, but they're not a part of his body.

 

[Crystanium]

Again, I'm using hearts to demonstrate how much of a beating Link can take.

Which makes about as much sense as using Mario's health meter in Super Mario 64 or Super Mario Sunshine. The only thing we can be told about concerning health meters is what harms and what doesn't. For example, if Mario hits a wall while using F.L.U.D.D. to go high speed, he won't get hurt.

Just because an item changes the color of Link's clothes doesn't mean that it only affects that area. For example, the Fire Flower only colors Mario's overalls and shirt differently, while the hat is still red. However, he can still survive another hit from that area, and the Fire Flower still takes effect. Another example includes Rayman Legends, where hit points are represented by hearts floating beside Rayman and co., and they protect from a hit despite being nowhere near the point of impact (a similar principle applies with Crash Bandicoot's masks).

Considering the blue and red mail are likely based after the blue and red rings (and the red mail likely being based after the shield spell as well), it's indicative that this is the only area that has added protection, which makes sense when the mail is only worn on that area of the body. Not only that, but the shield spell concept art is an image of a red tunic. Also, Mario's hat is white when he has the fire flower costume.

After getting hit the first time by a power bomb, he would likely know what's coming and could thus use the Magic Cape the next time to avoid it. The Power Bomb wouldn't completely finish Link off either, since he has a fairy in a bottle to revive him.

Because a nuclear explosion wouldn't destroy glass bottles and the contents in them. Right.

Lower gravity to the point where Link gets injured a little bit (a quarter heart, to be specific), but still reaches terminal velocity relatively soon.

That makes no sense.

Fairy in a bottle.

Prove that glass and the fairy therein can withstand temperatures reaching 2,500 to 3,000°C.

Yes, but in Smash, Pokemon Trainer consists of the characters of the Trainer himself, Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. I agree that we should take the best case scenario for the characters, but not if that means introducing new ones altogether.

Being based after Fire Red/Leaf Green, I think he should be given six Pokemon, though. I'm not saying he should have Mewtwo if that's the issue you have. I'm saying we should all come to an agreement with what the other three he'll have. You already know my position, so I'll leave the rest up to others in a vote.

And in Ocarina of Time, it's stated that Ganondorf cannot make a wish with the Triforce. I prefer to use in-game examples over instruction manuals (especially ones that come from the NES/SNES era), because otherwise, Bowser turned the Toads into "horse tail plants", and heck, Samus is a boy.

That's what it says? By the near end of the game, Ganondorf takes the other Triforce pieces from Zelda and Link. That's what he also did in WW. You do realize that ALttP was made for the GBA as well, right? The manual might be different, but I doubt it's too different from the story for the SNES. Not only that, but the manual contains the story, which you can see TP was based on. I don't know what "horse tail plants" are, and Samus wouldn't be a male. The intended purpose was to make people think Samus was a male, which she was originally going to be. However, Metroid: Zero Mission is a remake and has retconned the one for the NES. (I've been a Metroid fan since '94. I know quite a lot about the series.)

Spoiler: Not sure why this needs a spoiler, but why not

Power Stars come out of Mario, but they're not a part of his body.

Regardless, Ganondorf should still at least access due to having possession and using it more than once. Not that I would see it benefiting him in battle, since he's never used it for anything like wishing Link was dead.

 

[Munomario777]

Which makes about as much sense as using Mario's health meter in Super Mario 64 or Super Mario Sunshine. The only thing we can be told about concerning health meters is what harms and what doesn't. For example, if Mario hits a wall while using F.L.U.D.D. to go high speed, he won't get hurt.

In gameplay, Link can be hit by a bomb's explosion eighty times before dying. I don't see why we should ignore this.

Considering the blue and red mail are likely based after the blue and red rings (and the red mail likely being based after the shield spell as well), it's indicative that this is the only area that has added protection, which makes sense when the mail is only worn on that area of the body. Not only that, but the shield spell concept art is an image of a red tunic. Also, Mario's hat is white when he has the fire flower costume.

Just because someone made a protective tunic that may or may not be based on the rings of the same color doesn't mean that they have the same properties. As for the shield spell, that's likely just concept art for the tunic changing color during the spell, and shouldn't be taken as proof that Link is only protected in that area. Also, I'd imagine that it would protect him in the head and feet as well, although I haven't played AoL, so I'm not sure.

Oops, my bad. Yoshi from games such as Super Mario World have this trait.

Because a nuclear explosion wouldn't destroy glass bottles and the contents in them. Right.

I haven't tested this in-game, but I don't think an explosion can destroy a bottle itself or the fairy inside. Either way, though, breaking the bottle would only release the fairy so that it could revive Link.

That makes no sense.

With lower gravity, terminal velocity would be reached sooner (due to there being less gravity to speed Link up) and the fall speed would be slower, resulting in less injury when falling from a great height.

Prove that glass and the fairy therein can withstand temperatures reaching 2,500 to 3,000°C.

Seeing as how Link can fall into lava (literally sinking into it in some games) and have his bottles and other items completely intact afterwards, that seems to be the case.

Being based after Fire Red/Leaf Green, I think he should be given six Pokemon, though. I'm not saying he should have Mewtwo if that's the issue you have. I'm saying we should all come to an agreement with what the other three he'll have. You already know my position, so I'll leave the rest up to others in a vote.

I see each Pokemon as a separate character, so I don't think that we should add any besides PT's trio since that would be ally assistance.

That's what it says?

I don't have an exact quote, but it's at least demonstrated in OoT when Ganon attempts to make a wish with the Triforce, but it splits up and scatters instead. Ganon gets the Triforce of Power, Zelda gets Wisdom, and Link gets Courage.

By the near end of the game, Ganondorf takes the other Triforce pieces from Zelda and Link. That's what he also did in WW.

Just because he stole the other pieces doesn't mean he can use them. It would still be beneficial for him to possess them, though, since now Link and Zelda don't have them.

You do realize that ALttP was made for the GBA as well, right? The manual might be different, but I doubt it's too different from the story for the SNES.

Do you know where the manual's exact text can be found? Either way, the excerpt from the manual is rather vague ("I do not know what he wished for"), and if you ask me, one clear game example > one-and-a-half (the second one is as remake after all) unclear manual examples.

Not only that, but the manual contains the story, which you can see TP was based on.

While TP may have taken influence from the manual (I'll take your word on that one), they're in two separate branches of the timeline, so they don't seem to be connected in that sense (plus, taking inspiration from something doesn't really indicate that thing's canonicity).

I don't know what "horse tail plants" are, and Samus wouldn't be a male. The intended purpose was to make people think Samus was a male, which she was originally going to be. However, Metroid: Zero Mission is a remake and has retconned the one for the NES. (I've been a Metroid fan since '94. I know quite a lot about the series.)

"Horsetail" is another name for Equisetum. Yeah, it is rather odd. As for Samus being a male, whatever the intentions may be, there's a clear, major contradiction between the manual and the game.

Regardless, Ganondorf should still at least access due to having possession and using it more than once. Not that I would see it benefiting him in battle, since he's never used it for anything like wishing Link was dead.

It's been shown that "using it" results in it being scattered, which could only hurt Ganondorf in this scenario.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Seeing as how Link can fall into lava (literally sinking into it in some games) and have his bottles and other items completely intact afterwards, that seems to be the case.

Most likely just to avoid players throwing controller into the TV upon losing important items like this. And lava isn't as hot (wasn't it around 1200°C?) as Power Bomb explosion if Dryn's calculations are accurate.

 

[Munomario777]

Most likely just to avoid players throwing controller into the TV upon losing important items like this. And lava isn't as hot (wasn't it around 1200°C?) as Power Bomb explosion if Dryn's calculations are accurate.

While that may be the design reason, we shouldn't just ignore it. Seeing as how even paper letters and such are unscathed, it seems like Link's items are either kept in A) an extremely durable bag or B) hammerspace (which would be rather fitting, since he has a hammer ).

 

[BaganSmashBros]

While that may be the design reason, we shouldn't just ignore it. Seeing as how even paper letters and such are unscathed, it seems like Link's items are either kept in A) an extremely durable bag or B) hammerspace (which would be rather fitting, since he has a hammer ).

Most likely latter. Makes much more sense (because if it would be just a impossibly durable bag that also doesn't allows even heat to affect its content, then it wouldn't be able to hold that much stuff).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Okay, then Mario can just use the Cape Feather. As for Hyper Beam, it's still affected by Protect and such, so anything that makes Mario invincible would work here (including the Statue Leaf, Lucky Bell, etc.).

Power-ups don't stack. Right after Mario switches to one of those, the Hyper Beam would hit him, then Mario loses the power-up. Mewtwo's attacks keep hitting, Mario keeps losing his power-ups.

Cape Feather

gets knocked out of him.

Unless Mario uses an invincibility item (or just dodges the attacks, since the Cape Feather allows for a good amount of agility).

Invincibility items would be knocked out of him before Mario activates their invincibility. Also, Mewtwo would be wielding F.L.U.D.D., so he can combine Hyper Beam with a water jet for an attack Mario can't avoid. Or, if he doesn't use Hyper Beam, he could use telekinesis to aim F.L.U.D.D.'s jet and chase Mario (or do it backwards and toss Mario into the jet). There's also Aura Sphere, which can't be avoided.

I should probably do this, seeing as you believe Mario would defeat both Mewtwo and Palutena.
vs vs
Attacker: Mario
's Attack: Fire Flower
Fire Mario can launch fireballs at his opponents.
's Counter: Flying
Fireballs are on the ground, so flying would allow Mewtwo to easily dodge this.
's Counter: Flying
Same as Mewtwo.
's Counter: Fire Up
Mario can send the fire upwards at his opponents.
's Counter: Reflect Barrier
Reflect Barrier would reflect the fire back at Mario.

's Attack: Ice Flower
Ice Mario can throw ice balls at his opponents, freezing them.
's Counter: Flying
Ice balls are on the ground, so flying would allow Mewtwo to easily dodge this.
's Counter: Flying
Same as Mewtwo.
's Counter: Spin Jump
Mario could rise up to his opponents and send the ice at them.
's Counter: Reflect Barrier
Reflect Barrier would reflect the ice back at Mario.

's Attack: F.L.U.D.D.
Mario can launch high-speed jets of water as blasts.
's Counter: Telekinesis
After the first jet, that Mewtwo would tank thanks to his Defense stat, it can prepare to redirect the water back at Mario.
's Counter: N/A
Palutena cannot react to jets of water this speed.

's Attack: Hammer
Mario wields a powerful hammer with strong swings.
's Counter: Barrier
Barrier increases Mewtwo's resistance to physical attacks, like the hammer.
's Counter: Counter
Palutena can Counter the hammer, sending the damage back at Mario.

's Attack: Mega Mushroom
This causes Mario to grow large and destroy his enemies.
's Counter: Flying
Mega Mario can't jump high enough to reach a flying Mewtwo.
's Counter: Flying
Same as Mewtwo.

's Attack: Statue Leaf
Mario can turn into a rock and crush his opponents from above.
's Counter: Protect
Protect creates a forcefield that can stop Mario from falling.

's Attack: Starman
Starman makes Mario invincible, able to damage foes with his body.
's Counter: Teleport
Mewtwo could teleport to dodge Mario, returning after a little bit as Mega Mewtwo.
's Counter: Transparency
This makes Palutena invisible, so Mario wouldn't know where to attack. The Starman wears off after a short time.
Attacker: Palutena
's Attack: Mega Laser
This is a powerful laser that hits several times in a second, possessing great range.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Mega Laser pretty weak on it.
's Counter: Cape Flower
The Cape Flower would allow Mario to fly and dodge the laser.
's Counter: Telekinesis
Mewtwo could throw Mario back down into the laser.

's Attack: Meteor Shower
This summons a rain of meteors from above, hitting in several areas.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Meteor Shower pretty weak on it.
's Counter: Statue Leaf
The Statue Leaf makes Mario invincible.
's Counter: Mindwiping
Mewtwo could mindwipe Mario before he transforms into a statue, making him confused and causing the meteors to hit.

's Attack: Heavenly Light
This creates a field of damaging light around Palutena.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Heavenly Light pretty weak on it.
's Counter: Statue Leaf
The Statue Leaf makes Mario invincible.
's Counter: Mewtwo could mindwipe Mario before he transforms into a statue, making him confused and causing the meteors to hit.

's Attack: Angelic Missile
Palutena launches herself at Mewtwo.
's Counter: Telekinesis
Mewtwo can redirect the attack at Mario.
's Counter: N/A
Constant mindwiping keeps Mario from doing something to dodge the attack.

's Attack: Rocket Jump
Palutena propels herself up with a damaging explosion on Mewtwo.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Rocket Jump pretty weak on it.
Attacker: Mewtwo
's Attack: Mega Mewtwo
Mewtwo Mega Evolves into a being of universal power.
's Counter: N/A
Mario cannot deal with a being of such power.
's Counter: N/A
Palutena cannot deal with a being of such power.

's Attack: Aura Sphere
This is a ball of aura directed at Mario.
's Counter: Cape Flower
The Cape Flower lets Mario fly, granting him the power to dodge the sphere.
's Counter: Never Misses
Aura Sphere never misses.

's Attack: Hyper Beam
This is a long-ranged beam directed at Palutena.
's Counter: Flying
Palutena can dodge this by flying.
's Counter: Holding
Mario is strong, and would hold Palutena down while the beam hits her.

's Attack: Psystrike
Mewtwo strikes Mario with psychic energy.
's Counter: N/A
Mario's durability doesn't account for such a strong attack.

Summary
Mega Mewtwo's stats greatly outmatch those of Mario's/Palutena's stats, even when combined. Mindwiping would lead to Mewtwo's opponents failing to dodge attacks. Mario is far out of the league of Palutena and Mewtwo. The winner is .

 

[Crystanium]

In gameplay, Link can be hit by a bomb's explosion eighty times before dying. I don't see why we should ignore this.

Because heart containers are a game mechanic. They represent life energy. (OoT manual, pp. 13, 29) There are times it can refer to defense, such as when the great fairy in OoT or MM grants Link "defensive strength". Chances are, because the Goron tunic is red and the Zora tunic is blue, the added defense was set up another way besides wearing tunics that could be selected at any time. It can also refer to how much time Link can remain under water, since when time runs out, Link's health starts to drain. Considering this life energy or force is "the breath of life itself", it would make sense Link is drowning because he's losing the breath of life.

Just because someone made a protective tunic that may or may not be based on the rings of the same color doesn't mean that they have the same properties. As for the shield spell, that's likely just concept art for the tunic changing color during the spell, and shouldn't be taken as proof that Link is only protected in that area. Also, I'd imagine that it would protect him in the head and feet as well, although I haven't played AoL, so I'm not sure.

Except they do. Both the blue ring and blue mail reduce damage by 50%. Both the red ring and red mail reduce damage by 25%. The shield spell cuts damage in half, as does the red mail in ALBW. And once again, the color of the tunic in the concept art is red. Considering the way these tunics are always the ones changing color and nothing else changes, it is worth considering that this is indicative of Link's defense only being added by the mail. Even if this defense was being distributed to Link's skin and bones, it wouldn't mean anything anyway.

I haven't tested this in-game, but I don't think an explosion can destroy a bottle itself or the fairy inside. Either way, though, breaking the bottle would only release the fairy so that it could revive Link.

Using your reasoning, if it's not in lore, we should consider science and logic. In fact, here's a fun fact. In Metroid: Zero Mission, Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, and even Metroid: Other M, Samus uses a power bomb in these four different instances to destroy glass. If an ingsmasher cannot survive a power bomb, what makes you think a fairy will?

With lower gravity, terminal velocity would be reached sooner (due to there being less gravity to speed Link up) and the fall speed would be slower, resulting in less injury when falling from a great height.

This requires too many assumptions.

Seeing as how Link can fall into lava (literally sinking into it in some games) and have his bottles and other items completely intact afterwards, that seems to be the case.

Link also returns to the last entry as if nothing happened. His clothes remain intact. What's your point? If Link's glasses are made of quartz glass, then that would explain why it wouldn't be affected by magma. Of course, it would be charred, regardless, and the contents inside would be destroyed because the temperature from the magma would fill the bottle.

I see each Pokemon as a separate character, so I don't think that we should add any besides PT's trio since that would be ally assistance.

They're going to be separate character. Pokemon have their own mind. You know my position.

I don't have an exact quote, but it's at least demonstrated in OoT when Ganon attempts to make a wish with the Triforce, but it splits up and scatters instead. Ganon gets the Triforce of Power, Zelda gets Wisdom, and Link gets Courage.

All right? The point is Ganondorf still acquires the Triforce.

Just because he stole the other pieces doesn't mean he can use them. It would still be beneficial for him to possess them, though, since now Link and Zelda don't have them.

Why not? I was saying it wouldn't be beneficial, at least not in battle. Ganondorf hasn't shown any desire to make his enemies cease to exist. Even with the Triforce, Ganondorf's case would be similar to Bowser's. It's another one of those, "We never saw it happen, so it's nothing to worry about anyway" like in the situation with Mewtwo's ability to mind control Mario.

Do you know where the manual's exact text can be found? Either way, the excerpt from the manual is rather vague ("I do not know what he wished for"), and if you ask me, one clear game example > one-and-a-half (the second one is as remake after all) unclear manual examples.

I couldn't find a pdf for the GBA version, but this should do. Fortunately, this clarifies, "I do not know what he wished for" as, "I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. [. . .] The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them."

While TP may have taken influence from the manual (I'll take your word on that one), they're in two separate branches of the timeline, so they don't seem to be connected in that sense (plus, taking inspiration from something doesn't really indicate that thing's canonicity).

Have you never played ALttP or TP? It's canon because it's part of the Zelda timeline given by Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma. Sorry, but you're not permitted to choose what is and isn't canon, especially when neither game is a spin-off.

As for Samus being a male, whatever the intentions may be, there's a clear, major contradiction between the manual and the game.

It wasn't a contradiction if the purpose was to fool the player.

It's been shown that "using it" results in it being scattered, which could only hurt Ganondorf in this scenario.

I don't see it hurting Ganondorf, since it's not like the entire roster is battling all at once. If that were the case, then because Ganondorf and Link could not be in possession of the Triforce at the same time, it would be split to their respective character.

Most likely just to avoid players throwing controller into the TV upon losing important items like this. And lava isn't as hot (wasn't it around 1200°C?) as Power Bomb explosion if Dryn's calculations are accurate.

700°C on a low-end, 1,500°C on a high-end. It wouldn't survive. I'm still wondering why a darkburst wouldn't just end this battle instantly.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Pokemon Trainer allowed mons:
1) Only the ones in Brawl: Muno,
2) The ones Red had at end of Gold/Silver: Bagan, ShadowL, Dryn, Reckless.
3) All Pokemon from 1st 3 gens: Kirby-D
The majority have voted for 2, so click this link if you want to see what Pokemon he will get (i'm too busy to post them)
PT specific rules:

1. Pokemon Trainer can't be hit. He's commanding from some far off location. (For: ShadowL, Bagan, Dryn; Against: Munom, kirby-D, Reckless)
2. Only one Pokemon at a time. If you oppose this, you're saying he can use however many he wants at once. (For: ShadowL; Against: Bagan, munom, kirbyD, Reckless)
3. As in the games, only one Pokemon (excluding Kygore/Groudon if you vote he should get access to all Pokemon from 1st 3 gens) can Mega Evolve per battle. (For: ShadowL, Bagan; Against: Munom, kirby-D) Dryn pointed out Megastones don't exist in gen 3 and shouldn't be able to be used.

My preference is 1, 2, 3, for reasons I've mentioned before. As for the proposals:

1. Against. The Trainer still has to throw out his Pokemon, and we shouldn't just let him be outside of the arena for no good reason.
2. Against. That's mainly due to the implied rules of a Pokemon battle, and in doubles battles and such, multiples can be out at once.
3. If there's a logical reason for it (i.e. only having one Mega Stone), I'm for. If it's just because of the rules of a Pokemon battle, then I'm against.

Noted preferences.
And the only thing I have to say about you being opposed to 1 is that's how he works in Brawl, so that's one reason he should be able to do commands outside of the arena. Similar to how Rosalina probably wouldn't be allowed to summon Lumas if they weren't apart of her character in Smash 4.

Are you sure? The Mega Mushroom transformation doesn't interrupt Mario's movement at all, and in just a second, he's ready to crush foes.

I forgot it was also in that game. Palutena can just use Super Speed and then fly (which would still work while flying. Or probably, teleport, but I will wait till I can replay Icarus to say use that.

The Cape would allow him to get up high enough to be above Palutena and fire the ice at her. By the way, do you think that we should let the Cape stack with other power-ups or not?

I'd vote no because in every game I can think of Mario characters can't stack power-ups.

@ ShadowLBlue
My preference for the trainer's Pokémon is 3, 1, 2.

I agree with Muno for the second proposal.

K.
Muno: 1, 2, 3
Kirby-D: 3, 1, 2
Just so we're clear, you agree with all 3 of his takes on the Pokemon Trainer specific rules?

Some of them have PP, but others have been shown to not have PP. Flying will let Mewtwo dodge pretty much whatever Mario throws at him, while he can annihilate the plumber from above using things like Hyper Beam, Thunder, or Shadow Ball. If Mario flies after him, Mewtwo sends him back with TK.

You know, TK is actually a move with 15 PP.

Also, Mario can always reflect Mewtwo's aforementioned moves with Barry.

I also think that the character should start off on their own (barring cases like Rosaluma, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer, etc. where the character in Smash includes multiple entities), and any ally assistance must be somehow summoned after that.

Disagree, they should start off with 1 partner (3 in Olimar's case) just like they do in Smash. Especially Olimar and PT who almost literally can't fight without their "allies".

I go for 2. And i agree with those rules except for one. I think he should be able to have 2 (or 3?) at a time since it is possible since gen...forgot which one.

K.

Actually, that happens only in Other M - in Zero Mission, she gets all energy tanks she gained before, but they are weaker...still give her enough health to survive something that should logically kill a human in one shot. And didn't ZSS had increased defence depending on how much energy tanks she collected in Other M anyway?

My bad, she may be able to beat him then but I'm still unsure. And idk, I didn't play Other M. Have you?

I'm beginning to think you people spend more time in this thread than on smash... How can anyone find the time to read this many massive posts...

That's why we're going to restart the thread as soon as we finish up the last few rules and tier list.

Actually, Ganondorf would be able to use the full Triforce. How do you think the dark world came to be in ALttP? The way it was explained in OoT might need a bit more clarification. I don't want to spoil this next part, so I'll put it in a spoiler tag. Read at your discretion.

I didn't say he couldn't just that he didn't use it in WW. And I because Link and Zelda have their individual Triforce pieces, neither Link nor Ganondorf gets access to the triforce.

As I told Munomario777, I think PT should get Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise because those are the full evolution of the three. I'm aware that they can receive a mega evolution, but using Fire Red/Leaf Green would ignore this option. I think the three starters should be at their full evolution because it puts them at their prime. To be fair, we should make sure all characters are at their optimal performance. I think Pikachu would be permissible (though not as Raichu because Pikachu has been the mascot, so to speak, of Pokemon and neither Red, nor Ash evolved Pikachu). I am not saying PT is Red or Ash, but I think a similarity would work.

I also agree he should get 6, and I say we just give him the 6 Red had since those include the 3 you mentioned. I'm marking you down for 2. And you didn't vote on whether he should only be allowed one at once or as many as he wants.

Rather than PT being unable to be harmed because he's at a distance, I think for him, we should at least allow some form of honor. It seems to be the case for Japan (and possibly other Asian countries). If that seems to be a problem, then let's take it as, "I know I could kill PT, but that would be too easy. I want a challenge so I'll take on his Pokemon." Tell me what you guys think.

If that was a long way of saying he won't be targeted, than yes. And one of the reason's I think he shouldn't be abel to be hit is because that's how he is in Smash.

Well, if in every Pokemon game, the character is supposed to be named Red, then I suppose that's who PT would be based after. We would only be working with FIre Red/Leaf Green, meaning only TMs, HMs, and anything else within those games (or generation) can only be used by PT's Pokemon. This would negate the use of mega evolution as well.

Ok, but fyi every trainer isn't Red.

I know. I was just using Pokemon as an example for the status effects and such. I'm not sure what you're trying to ask me.

Exactly what the last sentence said: is 20 seconds per turn (enemy and user combined) more agreeable to you than one minute?

Ah. I didn't know Nightmare in Dream Land was a remake. All right, I suppose that wouldn't be an issue. I'm just wondering why exactly we're ruling these out. Ganondorf had possession of the Triforce in ALttP, hence the reason why there was a dark world. He had full possession of it in OoT from what I recall. There's the part where he says, "These toys are too much for you. I command you return them to me!" In WW, he had possession of the Triforce again, but King Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule touched it and made a wish first. I left a spoiler about Skyward Sword in my post to Munomario777.

Addressed this above. All the Zelda members have their Triforce pieces, so one of them wielding the Triforce would be impossible.
FYI, I agree with you that the only reason 8 bombs don't do 8 bombs worth of damage is due to invincibility frames on Link.

@Nerdicon Paging Nerdicon, need your opinion on the Pokemon rules I posted in my last post.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

That’s awfully low. Even a standard Mechon M63 mook could do better than that.

Better than what?

Does that mean you have to take away the Monado as well?
Kirby can create allies out of copy abilities as seen in Kirby Superstar, so he technically isn’t summoning them.
Where does this 3 Days nonsense come from? The moon crashes in 3 days but that doesn’t mean the Chateau Romani will wear off in 3 days.
We shouldn’t be basing Sonic’s Ring total on some optional Mini-game. We should use the highest held total in a combat situation. If we used your logic Link’s Magic Armor can run off Rupees stored in a bank!
Falchion only negates all non-projectile attacks in FE1. It lacks this property in the sequels(FE3) and remakes(FE11 and 12), so it might have been retconned a long time ago(1994).

1. No, since you don't need Alvis's permission to use the Monado. I assume that's what you were getting at?
2. Still violates the ally rule as it currently stands.
3. Someone already told you a gossip stone said this.
4. Take it up with Munomario. I've actually been wondering myself since we've never seen proof. As far as in game combat goes, munomario did show proof he can get at least 9,999 rings.
5. Possible, I'd have to research. I believe Lucina mentioned it grows weaker over time though, so if so we're giving it to him at optimal strength.

Who and what attacks would this apply to?

Attacks that cause temporary buffs or debuffs, or attacks like Hyper Beam in Pokemon that have a turn start-up or cool-down.

One can argue Alvis only helped Shulk early on due to the orders of his master, and is only shown to use his power when one of the Monado wielders wills it.

Not sure what you're getting at.

Shulk never summons Alvis, as Alvis is already there in the form of the Monado.

Was referring specifically to Shulk using Alvis to recreate world.

2/1/3
Against.
Against.
Against.
Why should Pokemon trainer hold back when villains like Ganondorf won’t.

As Dryn brought up, Mega stones didn't exist then so PT can't use 'em.

Kirby also got the Star Rod at the end of Kirby’s adventure after reassembling it himself.

I meant Adventure, not Dream Land.

Outside help should only be allowed if it is a integral part of the character such as Pikmin, The Monado, Pokemon, Sonic’s wisps(they sound more like power-ups).

This is already a rule, so can you just vote for one the 3 please?

When I write up Shulk’s cutscene feats how should I order them? Chronologically or by Type(aka Strength, Reflex, Durability)?
I’ll put up rebuttals for Shulk vs Sonic and Mario when I’m done with that.

Uh, I guess chronologically.

 

[Munomario777]

Power-ups don't stack. Right after Mario switches to one of those, the Hyper Beam would hit him, then Mario loses the power-up. Mewtwo's attacks keep hitting, Mario keeps losing his power-ups.

Again, Mario can switch power-ups pretty much instantly. Mewtwo would have no time to react.

gets knocked out of him.

Okay then. He could just use the Super Leaf, Tanooki Suit, P-Wing, P-Balloon, Wing Cap, Power Flower, Bee Mushroom, Boo Mushroom, Red Star, Propeller Mushroom, Cloud Flower, P-Acorn, or any other of the three and a half million power-ups that enable flight.

Invincibility items would be knocked out of him before Mario activates their invincibility.

How exactly? That never occurs in any Mario game.

Also, Mewtwo would be wielding F.L.U.D.D., so he can combine Hyper Beam with a water jet for an attack Mario can't avoid.

Until he runs out of water, that is.

Or, if he doesn't use Hyper Beam, he could use telekinesis to aim F.L.U.D.D.'s jet and chase Mario (or do it backwards and toss Mario into the jet).

When has Mewtwo ever redirected water streams?

There's also Aura Sphere, which can't be avoided.

Except it can be, by using Dig, Fly, etc. (and presumably by using Move Two Feet To The Side).

I should probably do this, seeing as you believe Mario would defeat both Mewtwo and Palutena.
vs vs

Who ever said anything about free-for-alls? I'm working with one-on-one battles. But I'll play along anyway.

Attacker: Mario

's Attack: Fire Flower
Fire Mario can launch fireballs at his opponents.
's Counter: Flying
Fireballs are on the ground, so flying would allow Mewtwo to easily dodge this.
's Counter: Flying
Same as Mewtwo.
's Counter: Fire Up
Mario can send the fire upwards at his opponents.
's Counter: Reflect Barrier
Reflect Barrier would reflect the fire back at Mario.

Reflect has limited use. I'd also like to point out that Mewtwo dies in about two minutes when he gets burned, and Mario could definitely outlast Mewtwo for that long.

's Attack: Ice Flower
Ice Mario can throw ice balls at his opponents, freezing them.
's Counter: Flying
Ice balls are on the ground, so flying would allow Mewtwo to easily dodge this.
's Counter: Flying
Same as Mewtwo.
's Counter: Spin Jump
Mario could rise up to his opponents and send the ice at them.
's Counter: Reflect Barrier
Reflect Barrier would reflect the ice back at Mario.

Reflect has limited use.

's Attack: F.L.U.D.D.
Mario can launch high-speed jets of water as blasts.
's Counter: Telekinesis
After the first jet, that Mewtwo would tank thanks to his Defense stat, it can prepare to redirect the water back at Mario.
's Counter: N/A
Palutena cannot react to jets of water this speed.

Aside from the fact that F.L.U.D.D. is best used for mobility in this scenario (he has much better offensive options), when has Mewtwo redirected streams of water?

's Attack: Hammer
Mario wields a powerful hammer with strong swings.
's Counter: Barrier
Barrier increases Mewtwo's resistance to physical attacks, like the hammer.
's Counter: Counter
Palutena can Counter the hammer, sending the damage back at Mario.

Barrier and Counter have limited use.

's Attack: Mega Mushroom
This causes Mario to grow large and destroy his enemies.
's Counter: Flying
Mega Mario can't jump high enough to reach a flying Mewtwo.
's Counter: Flying
Same as Mewtwo.

Cape Feather (or another flight item) > Ice Flower > Mega Mushroom > Ground Pound.

's Attack: Statue Leaf
Mario can turn into a rock and crush his opponents from above.
's Counter: Protect
Protect creates a forcefield that can stop Mario from falling.

Protect has limited use.

's Attack: Starman
Starman makes Mario invincible, able to damage foes with his body.
's Counter: Teleport
Mewtwo could teleport to dodge Mario, returning after a little bit as Mega Mewtwo.
's Counter: Transparency
This makes Palutena invisible, so Mario wouldn't know where to attack. The Starman wears off after a short time.

Mega Mewtwo requires trainer assistance.

Attacker: Palutena

's Attack: Mega Laser
This is a powerful laser that hits several times in a second, possessing great range.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Mega Laser pretty weak on it.
's Counter: Cape Flower
The Cape Flower would allow Mario to fly and dodge the laser.
's Counter: Telekinesis
Mewtwo could throw Mario back down into the laser.

When has Mewtwo demonstrated this ability?

's Attack: Meteor Shower
This summons a rain of meteors from above, hitting in several areas.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Meteor Shower pretty weak on it.
's Counter: Statue Leaf
The Statue Leaf makes Mario invincible.
's Counter: Mindwiping
Mewtwo could mindwipe Mario before he transforms into a statue, making him confused and causing the meteors to hit.

Didn't we drop the subject of mind control/brainwashing a while back?

's Attack: Heavenly Light
This creates a field of damaging light around Palutena.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Heavenly Light pretty weak on it.
's Counter: Statue Leaf
The Statue Leaf makes Mario invincible.
's Counter: Mewtwo could mindwipe Mario before he transforms into a statue, making him confused and causing the meteors to hit.

See above.

's Attack: Angelic Missile
Palutena launches herself at Mewtwo.
's Counter: Telekinesis
Mewtwo can redirect the attack at Mario.
's Counter: N/A
Constant mindwiping keeps Mario from doing something to dodge the attack.

See above. Also, when does Mewtwo redirect a human (er, goddess) missile?

's Attack: Rocket Jump
Palutena propels herself up with a damaging explosion on Mewtwo.
's Counter: Light Screen
Light Screen adds to Mega Mewtwo's (already great) Special Defense stat, making the Rocket Jump pretty weak on it.
Attacker: Mewtwo
's Attack: Mega Mewtwo
Mewtwo Mega Evolves into a being of universal power.
's Counter: N/A
Mario cannot deal with a being of such power.
's Counter: N/A
Palutena cannot deal with a being of such power.

Mega Evolution requires trainer assistance.

's Attack: Aura Sphere
This is a ball of aura directed at Mario.
's Counter: Cape Flower
The Cape Flower lets Mario fly, granting him the power to dodge the sphere.
's Counter: Never Misses
Aura Sphere never misses.

Dig, Fly, and Move Two Feet To The Side can dodge Aura Sphere.

's Attack: Hyper Beam
This is a long-ranged beam directed at Palutena.
's Counter: Flying
Palutena can dodge this by flying.
's Counter: Holding
Mario is strong, and would hold Palutena down while the beam hits her.

I'd also like to point out that using Hyper Beam tires Mewtwo out for one turn (or approximately fifteen seconds).

's Attack: Psystrike
Mewtwo strikes Mario with psychic energy.
's Counter: N/A
Mario's durability doesn't account for such a strong attack.

Statue Leaf. Starman. Mega Mushroom. Lucky Bell.

Summary

Mega Mewtwo's stats greatly outmatch those of Mario's/Palutena's stats, even when combined. Mindwiping would lead to Mewtwo's opponents failing to dodge attacks. Mario is far out of the league of Palutena and Mewtwo. The winner is .

Mega Mewtwo requires trainer assistance, and mindwiping is a moot point. Mario can become invincible via multiple methods at any time, while the others cannot. The winner is Mario.

Because heart containers are a game mechanic. They represent life energy. (OoT manual, pp. 13, 29) There are times it can refer to defense, such as when the great fairy in OoT or MM grants Link "defensive strength". Chances are, because the Goron tunic is red and the Zora tunic is blue, the added defense was set up another way besides wearing tunics that could be selected at any time. It can also refer to how much time Link can remain under water, since when time runs out, Link's health starts to drain. Considering this life energy or force is "the breath of life itself", it would make sense Link is drowning because he's losing the breath of life.

Yes, and Link has enough "life energy" to take a bomb to the face eighty times in a row.

Except they do. Both the blue ring and blue mail reduce damage by 50%. Both the red ring and red mail reduce damage by 25%. The shield spell cuts damage in half, as does the red mail in ALBW. And once again, the color of the tunic in the concept art is red. Considering the way these tunics are always the ones changing color and nothing else changes, it is worth considering that this is indicative of Link's defense only being added by the mail. Even if this defense was being distributed to Link's skin and bones, it wouldn't mean anything anyway.

If his defense is always being added by the mail, then how exactly does he access it by wearing a ring on his finger? Also, why would it not matter whether or not it affects his skin and bones?

Using your reasoning, if it's not in lore, we should consider science and logic.

Not in lore, gameplay, or other sources.*

In fact, here's a fun fact. In Metroid: Zero Mission, Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, and even Metroid: Other M, Samus uses a power bomb in these four different instances to destroy glass. If an ingsmasher cannot survive a power bomb, what makes you think a fairy will?

The fact that you can blow up a fairy with multiple bombs in a row and it won't even flinch (and that's when it's just out in the open).

This requires too many assumptions.

I prefer using an explanation with a couple of relatively reasonable assumptions to just dismissing something as a "game mechanic".

Link also returns to the last entry as if nothing happened. His clothes remain intact. What's your point?

Well, his clothes remaining intact seems rather necessary to maintain that E For Everyone rating, if you know what I mean. Link himself takes damage from the lava, so why wouldn't the fairy? (Unless, of course, the fairy, the bottle, or wherever Link keeps his items is just resistant to heat and such.)

If Link's glasses are made of quartz glass, then that would explain why it wouldn't be affected by magma. Of course, it would be charred, regardless, and the contents inside would be destroyed because the temperature from the magma would fill the bottle.

Fairies don't seem to be affected at all by high temperatures, though. They can go into lava along with Link multiple times, get shot with fire arrows, blown up with bombs multiple times, and still be completely unscathed and ready to heal Link back to full health.

They're going to be separate character. Pokemon have their own mind. You know my position.

Then why are you adding three more characters to the Pokemon Trainer?

All right? The point is Ganondorf still acquires the Triforce.

...of Power, AKA one-third of the full Triforce without any wish-granting abilities (or at least not to the same extent of the full Triforce).

Why not? I was saying it wouldn't be beneficial, at least not in battle. Ganondorf hasn't shown any desire to make his enemies cease to exist. Even with the Triforce, Ganondorf's case would be similar to Bowser's. It's another one of those, "We never saw it happen, so it's nothing to worry about anyway" like in the situation with Mewtwo's ability to mind control Mario.

True.

I couldn't find a pdf for the GBA version, but this should do. Fortunately, this clarifies, "I do not know what he wished for" as, "I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. [. . .] The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them."

Ah, I see. I just prefer to use in-game examples in favor of those from instruction booklets. That said, since it doesn't really affect the topic hand, I suggest that we just agree to disagree on this one.

Have you never played ALttP or TP? It's canon because it's part of the Zelda timeline given by Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma. Sorry, but you're not permitted to choose what is and isn't canon, especially when neither game is a spin-off.

A Link to the Past is canon. TP is canon. The instruction booklets (in my opinion, anyway) are canon unless proven false by a canon game.

It wasn't a contradiction if the purpose was to fool the player.

A contradiction is a contradiction, regardless of whether or not it was intentional.

I don't see it hurting Ganondorf, since it's not like the entire roster is battling all at once. If that were the case, then because Ganondorf and Link could not be in possession of the Triforce at the same time, it would be split to their respective character.

Ah, but it would. You see, the person who attempted the wish is given the piece of the Triforce that most exemplifies them. Since Ganon is rather powerful, he gets the Triforce of Power. The other two pieces go to someone else, and who it picks depends on that same exemplifying deal. Link is courageous, for example, so he gets the Triforce of Courage. In a one-on-one fight, both pieces would debatably go to Ganon's opponent (nothing enters/exits the arena, so that would limit the options to the opponent), but if it was, say, Ganondorf VS Palutena, then she would most definitely get the Triforce of Wisdom.

700°C on a low-end, 1,500°C on a high-end. It wouldn't survive. I'm still wondering why a darkburst wouldn't just end this battle instantly.

A fairy can be dived into lava with time after time after time until Link dies from it, and it will still be completely unscathed. If getting dunked into lava doesn't so much as scathe the fairy, and it has shown to have resistance to all other means of attack (likely explained by its native healing abilities), then I don't see how one Power Bomb would kill it.

As for the darkburst, Link's footwear could help him here in two ways. First off, the Iron Boots would weigh him down tremendously in order to negate the suction, albeit at the cost of mobility. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the Pegasus Boots and the Bunny Hood, which would allow Link to increase his speed dramatically to avoid and outrun the darkbursts while still attacking Samus.

And the only thing I have to say about you being opposed to 1 is that's how he works in Brawl, so that's one reason he should be able to do commands outside of the arena. Similar to how Rosalina probably wouldn't be allowed to summon Lumas if they weren't apart of her character in Smash 4.

One Pokemon at a time is contradicted in the main games (doubles battles, plus it's a result of Pokemon rules), while Luma summoning is not.

I forgot it was also in that game. Palutena can just use Super Speed and then fly (which would still work while flying. Or probably, teleport, but I will wait till I can replay Icarus to say use that.

Could she react quickly enough, though?

I'd vote no because in every game I can think of Mario characters can't stack power-ups.

Okay, just curious.

You know, TK is actually a move with 15 PP.

Good point.

Disagree, they should start off with 1 partner (3 in Olimar's case) just like they do in Smash. Especially Olimar and PT who almost literally can't fight without their "allies".

This is only meant for characters summoning allies that aren't a main part of their character (like Kirby's Helpers, for instance), hence the "barring Rosaluma" etc. I agree that those characters where they are included in the Smash character should start off as such.

If that was a long way of saying he won't be targeted, than yes. And one of the reason's I think he shouldn't be abel to be hit is because that's how he is in Smash.

I think that Dryn was saying that some fighters might not choose to target the trainer (whether that be from an honor system of sorts or just looking for a challenge), but not that there would be a rule against it. If we're basing things off of how characters work in Smash, then Sonic can create Springs out of thin air, Kirby can only float jump six times, etc. etc. My reason for taking the Trainer's 'mon selection from Smash and not, say, the Trainer's invulnerability is because Pokemon are characters, while invulnerability is an attribute of a character.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ BaganSmashBros , can you revote (in Nerdicon's case vote) on Kirby-D's outside help rule? It's currently tied so we need yall to be the tie breaker.

Could she react quickly enough, though?

How far apart did we agree they start?

I think that Dryn was saying that some fighters might not choose to target the trainer (whether that be from an honor system of sorts or just looking for a challenge), but not that there would be a rule against it. If we're basing things off of how characters work in Smash, then Sonic can create Springs out of thin air, Kirby can only float jump six times, etc. etc. My reason for taking the Trainer's 'mon selection from Smash and not, say, the Trainer's invulnerability is because Pokemon are characters, while invulnerability is an attribute of a character.

It's not just Smash, even in games they can't be targeted, unlike say Olimar in Pikmin. Pokemon Trainer doesn't even have a slot, you have to choose one of his 3 Pokemon (although PT's face does appear in the box) when you choose him.

 

[Munomario777]

How far apart did we agree they start?

I don't recall, but either way, Mario could just get up close and then activate the Mega Mushroom to catch her off guard.

It's not just Smash, even in games they can't be targeted, unlike say Olimar in Pikmin.

That seems to be due to Pokemon matches being rather civilized, and not attacking the trainer being either a rule of the matches or a general law (seeing as how it would likely kill a human).

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Rather than PT being unable to be harmed because he's at a distance, I think for him, we should at least allow some form of honor. It seems to be the case for Japan (and possibly other Asian countries). If that seems to be a problem, then let's take it as, "I know I could kill PT, but that would be too easy. I want a challenge so I'll take on his Pokemon." Tell me what you guys think.

How about in order to win against Pokemon Trainer you have to knock out him and all 6 Pokemon for victory. Knocking him out early would remove leadership and unity from the Pokemon(same strategy would work against Olimar).

When exactly is it shown/said that Alvis is part of the Monado, as in the sword?

I am Monado(plural, as all 3 Monados are reacting and Zanza is powerless to stop it). (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&index=101&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP) at 23:32-23:36. Technically the Monados are more a part of him than him a part of them.

The Gossip Stones in Majora's Mask describe Chateau Romani as the following: "It seems that drinking Chateau Romani makes your magic power last for three days..."

So it’s from a gossip stone? Ok then.

Link is not holding the Rupees stored in a bank; they're at a separate building. Meanwhile, Sonic is holding all of those Rings, on his person. We know this because A) there doesn't seem to be any kind of credit card scanner at the Black Market (where the Rings are spent), so Sonic is definitely paying in cash here, and B) Sonic doesn't have to make return trips to get more Rings from a bank or anything.

That’s just for the convenience of reducing tedium for the players. Where does he hide them when he goes into a level proper? Then why can’t he hold that number of rings in any combat scenarios in his games?

And why exactly is that a reason for us to nerf him?

I like being petty.

Okay then, he's a deity. That doesn't make him any less of an ally to Shulk. You can't depower Shulk if he never had those powers in the first place (Alvis did).

Then your missing the point of canonical power. Your anti-outside help policy is on a ridiculous slippery slope.

I'd recommend going by type, so it's better organized and all.

I’ve decided to go with chronological so as to keep the number of links down and reduce the number of times you will have to look at the same video. This will also give you a better idea of his growth over the game.

Gameplay info on Shulk can be found on page 116, post 4619

Shulk’s Cutscene Feats:

Spoiler: Heavy spoilers for the whole of Xenoblade

Shulk vs assorted Mechon and Metal Face (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmMj_A_GLcU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=6): Homs strength and durability(Colonel Vangarre survives that explosion and being buried in debris to fight again later)=5:08-6:20, Shulk’s visions and Reflexes(both melee and projectile)=13:50-15:30, Shulk’s strength, ability to recognize weak points and skill against towering foes=22:45-23:10.

Shulk vs Arachno Queen (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imKVglbON1w&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=8): Monado Shield in action (note the Arachno Queen bouncing off and being momentarily stunned)=3:03-4:17.

Shulk vs Mechon M71 and Xord (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18N8VjDQR8E&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=11): Shulk’s reflexs and Monado Speed in action=4:18-6:23, Shulk‘s reflexs, surefootedness and ability to sense ambushers=15:04-16:48.

Shulk vs Metal Face round 2 (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgp5KelTdE&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=18): Shulk’s durability=11:50-12:30, more durability and the Monado melting through Face armor=16:50-17:20 and 18:09-18:20.

Shulk vs Puera Telethia (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm955w13LVw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=25): Shulk’s durability, ability to learn new Monado Arts through observation and Monado Purge‘s crippling effect on large enemies=26:19-29:15.

Shulk vs Leone Telethia (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK0GyJaD4&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=30): Monado Purge’s almost as crippling effect on very large enemies(They can still struggle a bit)=16:06-16:40

Shulk vs Metal Face round 3 (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5rhe7ekhA&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=40): The sheer length of Monado Buster=25:55-26:10 and 29:33-29:36

Shulk vs assorted Mechon on Fallen Arm (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFRIbj0Zuv0&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=54): Shulk overcomes the effects of the Apocrypha Generator on the Monado(Arguably the first time Shulk manifest his Monado‘s power)=24:19-25:05.

Shulk vs Jade Face (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-j9JSiuVA0&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=68): Shulk starts seeing the future without getting visions(another example of his own Monado‘s power)=19:25-19:57

Shulk vs Jade Face round 2 (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q6oeHKVlU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=79): Shulk foresees another attack and deflects a projectile=17:17-17-50

Feats up to Mechonis Core (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo7bMhr2KzQ&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=82): 1:15-1:58=Shulk explains his visionless future sight+ funny example, 2:19-2:57=Shulk recovers quickly from being electrocuted

Shulk vs Yaldabaoth (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNiW6HaqhE&index=83&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP): 8:56-9:30=Shulk shows off insane strength, reflexes and jumping capabilities while under the effects of Monado Speed.

Shulk vs Telethia attack force(Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4b9KdZ7fuU&index=86&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP): 4:05-5:01=Shulk single handedly takes down a very large Telethia and evades and counters two smaller ones, 7:57-8:22=Shulk explains how he can see the future without the Monado, 12:04-12:15=Shulk blocks a bullet.

Shulk vs Zanza (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=101): 19:25-20:05=Shulk performs some impressive acrobatics on the final boss, 23:44-24:43=The Monado III’s god slaying capability in action.

In response to Page 100, Post 3961:

Monado Boy vs The Blue Blur:

Shulk’s Loadout:

Weapon Gems: 3 slots
Slow VI(25% to 75%)=Sharply reduces Sonic’s mobility on hit.
Bind VI(25% to 75%)=Fully negates Sonic’s greatest asset on hit.
Weapon Power VI(+50% activation rate)= improves Slow and Bind proc rate.

Armor Gems: 5 slots
Haste VI on Glory Gauntlets=Increases standard attack frequency.
Spike VI(250 DMG)=Punishes Sonic’s melee blows and exposes him to attack.
Agility Up VI(50)=Improve Shulk’s hit and evade rate.
Topple Resist VI=Keeps Shulk on his feet with that killer pinball bouncing around.
Daze Resist VI=Protects Shulk from hard blows to the head.

's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic's reflexes and speed would allow him to easily dodge the blade.

Why the hell would Shulk take a swing at Sonic unless he has been knocked off balance? He would strike when Sonic’s guard drops.

's Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
's Counter: A Vision!
The Monado allows Shulk to foresee enemy attacks in order to dodge them.
's Counter Counter: You're Too Slow!
Even if Shulk uses a Vision to predict Sonic's attacks, he still couldn't get out of the way in time.

's Counter x3: Monado Purge
Monado Purge can seal Sonic’s movement and there is no evading it.

's Attack: Spin Dash
Sonic can rev up in ball form, and after a couple of seconds, launch off at top speed in his damaging ball form.
's Counter: Monado Speed
Monado Speed allows Shulk to evade 90% of physical attacks.
's Counter Counter: Attack a Bunch of Times
Sonic could attack 100 times, and 90 of those would still hit. Also, Monado Speed has a cooldown.

Monado Shield or Armor+ Spike Gem would knock Sonic off Balance. Sonic also has to rev up for each of those attempts.

's Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
's Counter: Monado Shield
Monado Shield acts as a one-hit blocker.
's Counter Counter: Cooldown
However, it has a cooldown, so Sonic could attack again while it's recharging.

Sonic is vulnerable to Counterattacks when he is in the Air.

's Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
's Counter: N/A
For reasons stated above, Shulk cannot dodge such a fast attack.

Yeah, home straight into the Monado’s Blade and some crippling status ailments.

's Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
's Counter: N/A
Shulk is too slow to get out of the way of a light speed projectile.

Yeah, home straight into the Monado’s Blade and some crippling status ailments. Also when does Sonic move at light speed?

's Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons (including Mario's power-ups!) and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
's Counter: N/A
Monado Speed doesn't protect from ranged attacks, and these projectiles are too fast for him to dodge.

Blue Tornado requires a team to use and would just be negated by the Solid Foundation skill or Good Footing Gem. Sonic Wind can be countered with Shield, Armor, Speed or by simply evading as it sounds like a Ranged attack.

's Attack: The Wisps
The Wisps are a race of alien power-ups that can grant Sonic different Color Powers. These include a bomb, a black hole, a laser, and more.
's Counter: N/A
Wisps such as Laser would give Shulk a hard time for reasons stated above.

Boost is countered by the Aura and momentum destroying Monado Purge and is vulnerable to Shulk’s Spike gem.
Yellow Drill is bested canonically by Monado Speed as the Mechon M71 tried to pull the attack from below trick with at least half a dozen heavily armored tentacles. It still got turned into scrap -------------
Cyan Laser is countered by Monado Shield leaving Sonic open to Attack. Example of Lasers attacks include Jade Face’s Linear Laser IV and Mischievous Naberius’s Titan Laser V and VII.
Blue Cube can be countered with Monado Speed(jump over shockwaves) or Monado Armor and Solid Foundation or Good Footing gem. Sonic needs to stop ripping off Mischievous Naberius’s move set(in this case Titan Stamp).
Green Hover is slow, vulnerable and has a time limit. It can be blasted out of the air with Monado Purge.
Pink Spikes isn’t anymore of a threat than playing Rikiball with spiky heavy armor Riki. Jokes aside, how does this make Sonic anymore dangerous? Simply counter with Shield or Armor+ Spike gem.
Purple Frenzy gets countered with Monado Purge’s aura killing effect leaving Sonic vulnerable. Purple Frenzy won’t be able to grow due to Shulk’s body being made from ether.
Violet Void gets countered by the Solid Foundation skill or a Good Footing gem as it is not a true black hole.
Orange Rocket is useless against Shulk because he isn’t above Sonic at any time. What goes up must come down, onto the Monado’s blade.
Red Burst can be extinguished with Monado Purge’s aura sealing or mitigated with Monado Shield or Armor+ Spike Gem. Red Burst must charge up it’s explosions and Shulk has run into stuff like this before(Inferno Heinrich’s Eruption Talent Art).
Indigo Asteroid can be countered with Solid Foundation, Good Footing gems, running away or holding it in place at a distance with Monado Purge.
Crimson Eagle doesn’t seem to have any offensive capabilities. Counter it like the Orange Rocket.
Magenta Rhythm doesn’t seem to have any offensive capabilities. Counter it like the Orange Rocket.
Ivory Lighting can be countered with Monado Armor+ Spike gem and let Sonic impale himself on the Monado with his homing abilities. Shulk has been electrocuted in the past without severe repercussions.
Grey Quake can be countered in the same fashion as Blue Cube.
Black Bomb can be countered by sealing its movement with Monado Purge and then by running out of the blast radius.
All wisps share the disadvantage of having limited time to use.

's Attack: Chaos Control!
Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds' power to teleport, freeze time, and more.
's Counter: N/A
Shulk couldn't react in time for teleportation, and nothing makes him immune from time freezing.

Chaos Control is countered by Monado Purge Immobilizing Sonic, allowing Shulk to rush up to sonic and swipe his chaos emeralds before he even knows what happened. Sonic’s counter: Sonic speed. Ether attacks can’t miss as even the agile mind reading Telethia couldn’t escape Monado Purge.

's Attack: Super Sonic Style!
Sonic's ultimate transformation, this has Sonic harness the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic is faster, invincible, stronger, flying, and more, at the cost of one Ring per second. With a maximum of 999,999 Rings, Sonic can stay in this form for about eleven days. This is more than enough time for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle.
's Counter: N/A
Shulk can't become invincible like that, and has nowhere near enough speed, agility, or defense to withstand Super Sonic.

Sonic lost the Chaos Emeralds so no Super Sonic, besides Monado Purge will easily suppress the Super Saiyan Hedgehog’s aura.

Summary: Sonic might be fast but he will make mistakes(such as ramming into him) that Shulk can take advantage of. All Shulk needs is one Bind proc or opportune Purge hit and Sonic is doomed. End result Shulk eliminates one of the most dangerous Smashers and Sonic moves back in with his old roommate Earthworm Jim inside Cranky’s trash can.

Winner:
In response to Page 111, Post 4430:

Monado Boy vs Jumpman:

Shulk’s Loadout

Weapon Gems: 3 slots
Slow VI(25% to 75%)=Sharply reduces Mario’s mobility on hit.
Agility Up VI(50)=Improve Shulk’s hit and evade rate.
Weapon Power VI(+50% activation rate)=Improves Slow proc rate.

Armor Gems: 5 slots
Debuff Resist VI=Negates crippling status ailments.
Spike VI(250 DMG)=Punishes Mario’s melee blows.
Spike Defense VI=Negates contact damage from invincibility star.
Quick Step VI=Lets Shulk outmaneuver Mario.
Daze Resist VI=Protects Shulk from hard blows to the head.

's Counter:

• Monado Buster: Mario could dodge this attack via the Cape Feather's flight, the Super Star's added speed and invincibility, or other methods.
• Monado Speed: Mario has various ranged attacks, such as the Fire Flower and the Hammer Suit, so this shouldn't be much of an issue.

• Why use Buster when Eater is clearly the best offensive Monado Art.
• Shulk doesn’t need Speed to evade slow moving fireballs or arcing hammers.

's Attack: Slit Edge
Shulk attacks with the Monado. If the target is hit on the side, their physical defense is reduced by 50%.
's Counter: Jump
Mario's jump would allow him to avoid this slash.
's Counter Counter: A Vision!
Shulk's Visions would allow him to predict Mario's jumping and alter his slice accordingly.
's Counter Counter Counter: Wouldn't Work
Shulk only has Visions if the situation is extremely life-threatening, such as a deadly attack with potential to KO Shulk.

Shulk can see the future if he concentrates, so Mario gets skewered.

's Attack: Back Slash
Shulk attacks with the Monado. If the target is hit on the back, the damage output is doubled.
's Counter: Statue Leaf
Since this is a vertical attack, jumping up into the blade isn't an option. However, the Statue Leaf allows Mario to turn into an invincible statue for a few seconds, which would allow him to block this attack.

’s Counter X2:
Walk behind Mario and Back Slash him when it wears off or hit him with a break art and follow up with Monado Cyclone and Shaker Edge. Can Mario know where Shulk is when in statue form?

's Attack: Shaker Edge
Shulk attacks with the Monado. Dazes (inability to dodge attacks) if the target is Toppled.
's Counter: Dodge
Shaker Edge has a bit of startup lag, so Mario could dodge the attack.

Why is Shulk using Shaker Edge when Mario isn’t toppled. Mario can’t dodge when he is toppled.

's Attack: Air Slash
Shulk attacks with the Monado. Inflicts Break (vulnerable to Topple), and a side hit can inflict Slow (does what the name implies).
's Counter: Cape Feather
Mario's quick flying with the Cape Feather would allow him to dodge an aerial attack.

Shulk brings Mario crashing to the ground with Monado Purge. Cape Feather is a pretty terrible offensive option.

's Attack: Stream Edge
Shulk attacks all enemies in front of him to inflict Break (vulnerable to Topple) on targets, as well as filling up his Talent Gauge.
's Counter: Lucky Bell
Yet another of Mario's blocking options, this turns him into a Japanese "lucky cat" statue to block attacks.

Punished in the same way as Statue Mario.

's Attack: F.L.U.D.D.
This water pack allows Mario to fire a steady stream of water to clean up things and push opponents.
's Counter: N/A
Despite this not damaging Shulk, he doesn't have a way to block the pushing effect, which would prevent Shulk from attacking at close range while leaving him open to projectiles.

Shulk can close in on Mario with Quick Step VI as it allows you to make Headway in rapids. F.L.U.D.D. also has a limited tank.

's Attack: Fire Flower
This flower grants Mario pyrokinetic abilities, ranging from simple Fireballs to Mario Finale-esque flame attacks.
's Counter: N/A
Not even Monado Speed can dodge projectiles, and Mario can toss many of these rapidly and in multiple directions to make the arena difficult for Shulk to navigate.

Mario’s fireballs move too slow and are simply to weak to be effective. Heavier Fire attacks can largely be neutralized with Monado Armor and Debuff Resist VI(guards against catching fire).

's Attack: Super Star
This power-up grants Mario brief invincibility, along with enhanced speed, enhanced jumping, and the ability to damage enemies on contact. Mario can stack this with any other power-up.
's Counter: N/A
Even if Shulk got a Vision, the Super Star is too fast to dodge, and this also eliminates Shulk's counters to Mario's attacks.

Spike Defense will negate contact damage and Quick Step VI should let Shulk evade Mario for a while. Mario should save his star for negating the bleeding caused by Monado Eater.

Conclusion: Shulk’s Mobility and visions ensure he is always several steps ahead of Mario, and Monado Eater quite literally eats through Mario’s power-up inventory in no time at all. Mario can’t even strike Shulk at Melee due to spike damage and the superior range of the Monado. Mario can’t even consistently injure Shulk enough to get past Light Heal, and he can be put down fast when Bind or Break connect. Shulk will have no difficulty what so ever in brushing this joker aside.

WINNER:

Can you guys put in Youtube links so I can get a better idea about how fast the characters move and attacks go off as the wikis can only tell so much(especially how much the wisps change Sonic’s attributes).

I require some input on some thing:

Can we get a figure on Shulk’s basic running speed?
Link: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YE...RM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=1)=(18:30-18:50 and 19:54-20:47)
How much of an effect would the slow status have(I know the effect is significant but I can’t find a good example of the effect from the Mechon snipers in the Large Mechon Store area on YouTube)?
Bind in action: (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSS...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=33)20:49-21:00.

EDIT: in regards to Outside help:
allowed in any Summon

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Again, Mario can switch power-ups pretty much instantly. Mewtwo would have no time to react.

The effect of invincibility isn't activated instantly. The Hyper Beam would already be active, so it hits before Mario actually activates the invincibility of the power-up.

Okay then. He could just use the Super Leaf, Tanooki Suit, P-Wing, P-Balloon, Wing Cap, Power Flower, Bee Mushroom, Boo Mushroom, Red Star, Propeller Mushroom, Cloud Flower, P-Acorn, or any other of the three and a half million power-ups that enable flight.

And Mewtwo knocks them all away using all of his attacks. Simple.

How exactly? That never occurs in any Mario game.

What never occurs? Mario having to activate invincibility from the Statue Leaf?

Until he runs out of water, that is.

It would still aid him in battle, alongside his other attacks. Blasting Mario back down would allow Mewtwo to follow up with another attack that would be quite painful.

When has Mewtwo ever redirected water streams?

Water is no different from the other things he has used his TK on.

Except it can be, by using Dig, Fly, etc. (and presumably by using Move Two Feet To The Side).

Point? Mario isn't digging, plus Mewtwo is flying as well. You can't simply dodge Aura Sphere by stepping to the side. If you could, everyone would dodge it, yet that doesn't happen.

Reflect has limited use. I'd also like to point out that Mewtwo dies in about two minutes when he gets burned, and Mario could definitely outlast Mewtwo for that long.

And I believe we decided Palutena gets the Powers without limits, seeing as they are limited by her. And when would Mewtwo ever even get burned?

Reflect has limited use.

See above.

Aside from the fact that F.L.U.D.D. is best used for mobility in this scenario (he has much better offensive options), when has Mewtwo redirected streams of water?

See above.

Barrier and Counter have limited use.

See above, and Mario would probably just drop the hammer when Palutena counters, then Mewtwo attacks when Mario picks it back up.

Cape Feather (or another flight item) > Ice Flower > Mega Mushroom > Ground Pound.

And Mario can't use the Cape Flower with the Mega Mushroom.

Protect has limited use.

And Mewtwo would get the power-up out of Mario with an attack.

Mega Mewtwo requires trainer assistance.

Mewtwo proved he can do it by himself.

When has Mewtwo demonstrated this ability?

The ability to use telekinesis? That's pretty much his signature move, you know.

Didn't we drop the subject of mind control/brainwashing a while back?

Mind control/brainwashing on an invincible character, but Mario isn't invincible because he is being controlled before he becomes stone.

See above.

You too.

See above. Also, when does Mewtwo redirect a human (er, goddess) missile?

A goddess missile doesn't have immunity to telekinesis.

Mega Evolution requires trainer assistance.

See above.

Dig, Fly, and Move Two Feet To The Side can dodge Aura Sphere.

Again, point? Nobody is digging, Mewtwo is flying, and you can't just move to dodge Aura Sphere, or else everyone would dodge it.

I'd also like to point out that using Hyper Beam tires Mewtwo out for one turn (or approximately fifteen seconds).

And Mario can't really do anything to him in this time.

Statue Leaf. Starman. Mega Mushroom. Lucky Bell.

Mario already used half of those, and the other two were knocked out of him before he activated the invincibility.

Mega Mewtwo requires trainer assistance, and mindwiping is a moot point. Mario can become invincible via multiple methods at any time, while the others cannot. The winner is Mario.

Mewtwo has used Mewtwonite by himself, and Mario's invincibility only lasts a little bit. He can't even do anything while he is a statue, and the statue power-ups are knocked out of him before he activates them.

Anything past the line should be ignored. It's hard to delete that stuff on a phone.
-------------------------------------

Yes, and Link has enough "life energy" to take a bomb to the face eighty times in a row.

If his defense is always being added by the mail, then how exactly does he access it by wearing a ring on his finger? Also, why would it not matter whether or not it affects his skin and bones?

Not in lore, gameplay, or other sources.*

The fact that you can blow up a fairy with multiple bombs in a row and it won't even flinch (and that's when it's just out in the open).

I prefer using an explanation with a couple of relatively reasonable assumptions to just dismissing something as a "game mechanic".

Well, his clothes remaining intact seems rather necessary to maintain that E For Everyone rating, if you know what I mean. Link himself takes damage from the lava, so why wouldn't the fairy? (Unless, of course, the fairy, the bottle, or wherever Link keeps his items is just resistant to heat and such.)

Fairies don't seem to be affected at all by high temperatures, though. They can go into lava along with Link multiple times, get shot with fire arrows, blown up with bombs multiple times, and still be completely unscathed and ready to heal Link back to full health.

Then why are you adding three more characters to the Pokemon Trainer?

...of Power, AKA one-third of the full Triforce without any wish-granting abilities (or at least not to the same extent of the full Triforce).

True.

Ah, I see. I just prefer to use in-game examples in favor of those from instruction booklets. That said, since it doesn't really affect the topic hand, I suggest that we just agree to disagree on this one.

A Link to the Past is canon. TP is canon. The instruction booklets (in my opinion, anyway) are canon unless proven false by a canon game.

A contradiction is a contradiction, regardless of whether or not it was intentional.

Ah, but it would. You see, the person who attempted the wish is given the piece of the Triforce that most exemplifies them. Since Ganon is rather powerful, he gets the Triforce of Power. The other two pieces go to someone else, and who it picks depends on that same exemplifying deal. Link is courageous, for example, so he gets the Triforce of Courage. In a one-on-one fight, both pieces would debatably go to Ganon's opponent (nothing enters/exits the arena, so that would limit the options to the opponent), but if it was, say, Ganondorf VS Palutena, then she would most definitely get the Triforce of Wisdom.

A fairy can be dived into lava with time after time after time until Link dies from it, and it will still be completely unscathed. If getting dunked into lava doesn't so much as scathe the fairy, and it has shown to have resistance to all other means of attack (likely explained by its native healing abilities), then I don't see how one Power Bomb would kill it.

As for the darkburst, Link's footwear could help him here in two ways. First off, the Iron Boots would weigh him down tremendously in order to negate the suction, albeit at the cost of mobility. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the Pegasus Boots and the Bunny Hood, which would allow Link to increase his speed dramatically to avoid and outrun the darkbursts while still attacking Samus.

One Pokemon at a time is contradicted in the main games (doubles battles, plus it's a result of Pokemon rules), while Luma summoning is not.

Could she react quickly enough, though?

Okay, just curious.

Good point.

This is only meant for characters summoning allies that aren't a main part of their character (like Kirby's Helpers, for instance), hence the "barring Rosaluma" etc. I agree that those characters where they are included in the Smash character should start off as such.

I think that Dryn was saying that some fighters might not choose to target the trainer (whether that be from an honor system of sorts or just looking for a challenge), but not that there would be a rule against it. If we're basing things off of how characters work in Smash, then Sonic can create Springs out of thin air, Kirby can only float jump six times, etc. etc. My reason for taking the Trainer's 'mon selection from Smash and not, say, the Trainer's invulnerability is because Pokemon are characters, while invulnerability is an attribute of a character.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Also, a few Mewtwo feats I found on the first page of this thread.

• Mewtwo can destroy buildings with a thought.
• Mewtwo can teleport entire mountains.
• Mewtwo can redirect all projectiles.

So nothing stops Mewtwo from obliterating Mario once the Starman wears off. Don't say "Lucky Bell/Statue Leaf", because a building is more durable than Mario as a statue, unless you can prove otherwise.

Also, Mewtwo could teleport Mario out of the arena. He has no way back in ten seconds, so he loses.

 

[Munomario777]

How about in order to win against Pokemon Trainer you have to knock out him and all 6 Pokemon for victory. Knocking him out early would remove leadership and unity from the Pokemon(same strategy would work against Olimar).

That sounds good to me.

I am Monado(plural, as all 3 Monados are reacting and Zanza is powerless to stop it). (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&index=101&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP) at 23:32-23:36. Technically the Monados are more a part of him than him a part of them.

Oh boy, this again. From a user on the Xenoblade Wiki (can be found on Alvis's wiki page):

Spoiler

Alvis is Monado, because Monado is actually the system that was used during Zanza's experiment (Alvis is another name for the experiment). Therefore, when they said that the Monado has the capability to change the world, it is proven true since it actually did.

As in, not the sword.

That’s just for the convenience of reducing tedium for the players. Where does he hide them when he goes into a level proper? Then why can’t he hold that number of rings in any combat scenarios in his games?

Regardless of the design reasons, we can't just ignore it. A likely explanation for the last two questions is that, first off, like any sensible person going into a stage filled with deadly traps, enemies, etc. that can knock every penny out of you in one hit, he leaves his money at home. As for the 999 limitation in action stages, I chalk that up to gameplay mechanics (unless he just uses a smaller wallet or something).

I like being petty.

That's not a reason for us to nerf him.

Then your missing the point of canonical power. Your anti-outside help policy is on a ridiculous slippery slope.

We're testing the power of the characters, not their deity friends. How exactly is the rule a slippery slope?

I’ve decided to go with chronological so as to keep the number of links down and reduce the number of times you will have to look at the same video. This will also give you a better idea of his growth over the game.

Gameplay info on Shulk can be found on page 116, post 4619

Shulk’s Cutscene Feats:

Spoiler: Heavy spoilers for the whole of Xenoblade

Shulk vs assorted Mechon and Metal Face (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmMj_A_GLcU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=6): Homs strength and durability(Colonel Vangarre survives that explosion and being buried in debris to fight again later)=5:08-6:20, Shulk’s visions and Reflexes(both melee and projectile)=13:50-15:30, Shulk’s strength, ability to recognize weak points and skill against towering foes=22:45-23:10.

Shulk vs Arachno Queen (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imKVglbON1w&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=8): Monado Shield in action (note the Arachno Queen bouncing off and being momentarily stunned)=3:03-4:17.

Shulk vs Mechon M71 and Xord (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18N8VjDQR8E&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=11): Shulk’s reflexs and Monado Speed in action=4:18-6:23, Shulk‘s reflexs, surefootedness and ability to sense ambushers=15:04-16:48.

Shulk vs Metal Face round 2 (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgp5KelTdE&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=18): Shulk’s durability=11:50-12:30, more durability and the Monado melting through Face armor=16:50-17:20 and 18:09-18:20.

Shulk vs Puera Telethia (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm955w13LVw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=25): Shulk’s durability, ability to learn new Monado Arts through observation and Monado Purge‘s crippling effect on large enemies=26:19-29:15.

Shulk vs Leone Telethia (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK0GyJaD4&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=30): Monado Purge’s almost as crippling effect on very large enemies(They can still struggle a bit)=16:06-16:40

Shulk vs Metal Face round 3 (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5rhe7ekhA&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=40): The sheer length of Monado Buster=25:55-26:10 and 29:33-29:36

Shulk vs assorted Mechon on Fallen Arm (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFRIbj0Zuv0&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=54): Shulk overcomes the effects of the Apocrypha Generator on the Monado(Arguably the first time Shulk manifest his Monado‘s power)=24:19-25:05.

Shulk vs Jade Face (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-j9JSiuVA0&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=68): Shulk starts seeing the future without getting visions(another example of his own Monado‘s power)=19:25-19:57

Shulk vs Jade Face round 2 (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q6oeHKVlU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=79): Shulk foresees another attack and deflects a projectile=17:17-17-50

Feats up to Mechonis Core (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo7bMhr2KzQ&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=82): 1:15-1:58=Shulk explains his visionless future sight+ funny example, 2:19-2:57=Shulk recovers quickly from being electrocuted

Shulk vs Yaldabaoth (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNiW6HaqhE&index=83&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP): 8:56-9:30=Shulk shows off insane strength, reflexes and jumping capabilities while under the effects of Monado Speed.

Shulk vs Telethia attack force(Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4b9KdZ7fuU&index=86&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP): 4:05-5:01=Shulk single handedly takes down a very large Telethia and evades and counters two smaller ones, 7:57-8:22=Shulk explains how he can see the future without the Monado, 12:04-12:15=Shulk blocks a bullet.

Shulk vs Zanza (Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=101): 19:25-20:05=Shulk performs some impressive acrobatics on the final boss, 23:44-24:43=The Monado III’s god slaying capability in action.

K.

In response to Page 100, Post 3961

:

Monado Boy vs The Blue Blur:

Shulk’s Loadout:

Weapon Gems: 3 slots
Slow VI(25% to 75%)=Sharply reduces Sonic’s mobility on hit.
Bind VI(25% to 75%)=Fully negates Sonic’s greatest asset on hit.
Weapon Power VI(+50% activation rate)= improves Slow and Bind proc rate.

Armor Gems: 5 slots
Haste VI on Glory Gauntlets=Increases standard attack frequency.
Spike VI(250 DMG)=Punishes Sonic’s melee blows and exposes him to attack.
Agility Up VI(50)=Improve Shulk’s hit and evade rate.
Topple Resist VI=Keeps Shulk on his feet with that killer pinball bouncing around.
Daze Resist VI=Protects Shulk from hard blows to the head.

K.

Why the hell would Shulk take a swing at Sonic unless he has been knocked off balance? He would strike when Sonic’s guard drops.

Just covering every possibility.

's Counter x3: Monado Purge
Monado Purge can seal Sonic’s movement and there is no evading it.

What is your source for Monado Purge "sealing his movement"?

Monado Shield or Armor+ Spike Gem would knock Sonic off Balance. Sonic also has to rev up for each of those attempts.

It might damage him a bit, but I don't see why it would knock him off balance. Sonic is very swift at delivering attacks, whether it be speed-based, spin-based, martial arts-based, etc.

Sonic is vulnerable to Counterattacks when he is in the Air.

Since when?

Yeah, home straight into the Monado’s Blade and some crippling status ailments. Also when does Sonic move at light speed?

Sonic's control over his speed would enable him to maneuver around the blade and hit Shulk. Sonic moves at light speed when using the aptly named Light Speed Dash (along a trail of rings) or Light Speed Attack (homing in on opponents).

Blue Tornado requires a team to use and would just be negated by the Solid Foundation skill or Good Footing Gem. Sonic Wind can be countered with Shield, Armor, Speed or by simply evading as it sounds like a Ranged attack.

Actually, Sonic's team mates don't seem to contribute to the tornado:

The Good Footing Gem isn't in your list, by the way (and wouldn't prevent the Monado from being taken anyways). Sonic Wind will follow and surround the opponent in a tornado, even if they're moving at Sonic game speeds, so Shulk won't be dodging this.

Boost is countered by the Aura and momentum destroying Monado Purge and is vulnerable to Shulk’s Spike gem.

The Sonic Boost is an attack/technique, not a buff.

Yellow Drill is bested canonically by Monado Speed as the Mechon M71 tried to pull the attack from below trick with at least half a dozen heavily armored tentacles. It still got turned into scrap -------------

Monado Speed only has a certain chance of successfully dodging an attack, and Shulk would have a hard time seeing something that is underground.

Cyan Laser is countered by Monado Shield leaving Sonic open to Attack. Example of Lasers attacks include Jade Face’s Linear Laser IV and Mischievous Naberius’s Titan Laser V and VII.

Unless Monado Shield is in its cooldown. Laser will bounce off of anything that it doesn't go through, giving Sonic some room after it ends even if Shulk used Shield.

Blue Cube can be countered with Monado Speed(jump over shockwaves) or Monado Armor and Solid Foundation or Good Footing gem. Sonic needs to stop ripping off Mischievous Naberius’s move set(in this case Titan Stamp).

Cube's shockwaves travel through the air and can hit airborne enemies. Monado Speed only works against physical attacks.

Green Hover is slow, vulnerable and has a time limit. It can be blasted out of the air with Monado Purge.

This would be used for mobility than anything else, since Sonic can do everything that it can normally besides flying.

Pink Spikes isn’t anymore of a threat than playing Rikiball with spiky heavy armor Riki. Jokes aside, how does this make Sonic anymore dangerous? Simply counter with Shield or Armor+ Spike gem.

Again, this is more for mobility than anything, since Sonic can already turn into a spiky ball.

Purple Frenzy gets countered with Monado Purge’s aura killing effect leaving Sonic vulnerable. Purple Frenzy won’t be able to grow due to Shulk’s body being made from ether.

Unless Monado Purge is in cooldown. Growing won't matter after Shulk gets eaten.

Violet Void gets countered by the Solid Foundation skill or a Good Footing gem as it is not a true black hole.

Good footing won't save Shulk from death by spaghettification.

Orange Rocket is useless against Shulk because he isn’t above Sonic at any time. What goes up must come down, onto the Monado’s blade.

It can be aimed.

Red Burst can be extinguished with Monado Purge’s aura sealing or mitigated with Monado Shield or Armor+ Spike Gem. Red Burst must charge up it’s explosions and Shulk has run into stuff like this before(Inferno Heinrich’s Eruption Talent Art).

Can Purge attack flying enemies? Because Red Burst can fly. What exactly did Shulk do to counter that explosion?

Indigo Asteroid can be countered with Solid Foundation, Good Footing gems, running away or holding it in place at a distance with Monado Purge.

See Violet Void.

Crimson Eagle doesn’t seem to have any offensive capabilities. Counter it like the Orange Rocket.

Another Wisp for aerial mobility.

Magenta Rhythm doesn’t seem to have any offensive capabilities. Counter it like the Orange Rocket.

Yeah, it's like the Goldeen of Wisps. It even flops around the same way!

Ivory Lighting can be countered with Monado Armor+ Spike gem and let Sonic impale himself on the Monado with his homing abilities. Shulk has been electrocuted in the past without severe repercussions.

One does not simply kill a lightning bolt with a sword. How severe was the electrocution?

Grey Quake can be countered in the same fashion as Blue Cube.

Except this one is mobile.

Black Bomb can be countered by sealing its movement with Monado Purge and then by running out of the blast radius.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know where you're getting this movement sealing from.

All wisps share the disadvantage of having limited time to use.

Similarly, the Arts all have a cooldown time.

Chaos Control is countered by Monado Purge Immobilizing Sonic, allowing Shulk to rush up to sonic and swipe his chaos emeralds before he even knows what happened.

Until you provide a source for the immobilization, I'll be ignoring it. The Chaos Emeralds are stored inside of Sonic's body, and the transformation is instant (see the transformation in games such as Sonic 3 & Knuckles), so no such snatching will occur.

Sonic’s counter: Sonic speed. Ether attacks can’t miss as even the agile mind reading Telethia couldn’t escape Monado Purge.

Just because one agile person didn't dodge an attack doesn't mean it's impossible to dodge; that is extrapolation.

Sonic lost the Chaos Emeralds so no Super Sonic, besides Monado Purge will easily suppress the Super Saiyan Hedgehog’s aura.

Super Sonic is invulnerable to attacks, including Monado Purge. Even if Shulk did remove the transformation, he could just transform back and attack Shulk during Purge's cooldown.

Summary: Sonic might be fast but he will make mistakes(such as ramming into him) that Shulk can take advantage of. All Shulk needs is one Bind proc or opportune Purge hit and Sonic is doomed. End result Shulk eliminates one of the most dangerous Smashers and Sonic moves back in with his old roommate Earthworm Jim inside Cranky’s trash can.

Super Sonic is invincible, rendering of all Shulk's counters useless.

Winner:
In response to Page 111, Post 4430:

Monado Boy vs Jumpman:

Shulk’s Loadout

Weapon Gems: 3 slots
Slow VI(25% to 75%)=Sharply reduces Mario’s mobility on hit.
Agility Up VI(50)=Improve Shulk’s hit and evade rate.
Weapon Power VI(+50% activation rate)=Improves Slow proc rate.

Armor Gems: 5 slots
Debuff Resist VI=Negates crippling status ailments.
Spike VI(250 DMG)=Punishes Mario’s melee blows.
Spike Defense VI=Negates contact damage from invincibility star.
Quick Step VI=Lets Shulk outmaneuver Mario.
Daze Resist VI=Protects Shulk from hard blows to the head.

• Why use Buster when Eater is clearly the best offensive Monado Art.
• Shulk doesn’t need Speed to evade slow moving fireballs or arcing hammers.

- Again, just covering all possibilities. Also, cooldown would prevent him from using Eater constantly, so Buster could fill in that gap.
- Mario can throw fireballs/iceballs in all directions via a Spin Jump, making them much harder to dodge.

Shulk can see the future if he concentrates, so Mario gets skewered.

Good luck concentrating on seeing the future with a fat Italian plumber bouncing on your head.

’s Counter X2:
Walk behind Mario and Back Slash him when it wears off or hit him with a break art and follow up with Monado Cyclone and Shaker Edge. Can Mario know where Shulk is when in statue form?

Mario can end the statue form at any time, and could presumably see where Shulk is, so if Shulk lined up in that way, Mario could just pop out and counter attack.

Why is Shulk using Shaker Edge when Mario isn’t toppled. Mario can’t dodge when he is toppled.

Again, I'm just covering all possibilities.

Shulk brings Mario crashing to the ground with Monado Purge. Cape Feather is a pretty terrible offensive option.

When has Monado Purge been shown to bring airborne foes crashing to the ground? The Cale Feather could be used for positioning, in combination with other power-ups (for example, Cape > Mega Mushroom up high > Ground Pound).

Shulk can close in on Mario with Quick Step VI as it allows you to make Headway in rapids. F.L.U.D.D. also has a limited tank.

Fair enough. Mario could likely refuel using a combination of fire and ice, though.

Mario’s fireballs move too slow and are simply to weak to be effective. Heavier Fire attacks can largely be neutralized with Monado Armor and Debuff Resist VI(guards against catching fire).

The fireballs don't actually make foes catch fire; they just deal damage on contact. Monado Armour has a cooldown, while fire attacks do not.

Spike Defense will negate contact damage and Quick Step VI should let Shulk evade Mario for a while. Mario should save his star for negating the bleeding caused by Monado Eater.

Mario has shoes that allow him to jump on spiky enemies. Mario wouldn't need to save his star; by using it at the beginning, he could take out Shulk easily (and if not, there's always the 25-second Mega Mushroom).

Conclusion: Shulk’s Mobility and visions ensure he is always several steps ahead of Mario, and Monado Eater quite literally eats through Mario’s power-up inventory in no time at all.

Mario's mobility is also increased with a Starman. Knowing your opponent's next action won't help when that action is running towards you as an invincible rainbow man, nor will Monado Eater.

Mario can’t even strike Shulk at Melee due to spike damage and the superior range of the Monado.

Except he can, because he's invincible.

Mario can’t even consistently injure Shulk enough to get past Light Heal, and he can be put down fast when Bind or Break connect. Shulk will have no difficulty what so ever in brushing this joker aside.

Light Heal has a cooldown, does it not? Bind and Break won't connect on an invincible opponent.

The effect of invincibility isn't activated instantly. The Hyper Beam would already be active, so it hits before Mario actually activates the invincibility of the power-up.

Yes it is. When Mario equips a Starman (as shown in the console NSMB games), it is applied instantly.

And Mewtwo knocks them all away using all of his attacks. Simple.

Except Mario is invincible. Even if he already used his Starman, while Mewtwo is busy attacking Mario, he uses a fire attack to burn Mewtwo, and he dies in two minutes.

What never occurs? Mario having to activate invincibility from the Statue Leaf?

No, Mario's reserve power-ups getting knocked out of him.

Blasting Mario back down would allow Mewtwo to follow up with another attack that would be quite painful.

How so? He seems to take falls rather well.

Water is no different from the other things he has used his TK on.

Such as?

Point? Mario isn't digging, plus Mewtwo is flying as well. You can't simply dodge Aura Sphere by stepping to the side. If you could, everyone would dodge it, yet that doesn't happen.

Aura Sphere cannot hit opponents who are flying.
Mario is flying.
Therefore, Aura Sphere cannot hit Mario.

The reason Pokemon don't use Step Two Feet To The Side is because the turn-based gameplay does not allow for it.

And I believe we decided Palutena gets the Powers without limits, seeing as they are limited by her. And when would Mewtwo ever even get burned?

Really? I don't recall that being agreed to.

Mewtwo would get burned upon getting hit by a fire attack.

See above, and Mario would probably just drop the hammer when Palutena counters, then Mewtwo attacks when Mario picks it back up.

Mario never drops his hammer, even when it's blocked.

And Mario can't use the Cape Flower with the Mega Mushroom.

That's why he switches in midair.

And Mewtwo would get the power-up out of Mario with an attack.

And he could use another one.

The ability to use telekinesis? That's pretty much his signature move, you know.

And one with limited PP.

Mind control/brainwashing on an invincible character, but Mario isn't invincible because he is being controlled before he becomes stone.

It's practically instant, and I've discussed Mario's apparent resistance to brainwashing.

A goddess missile doesn't have immunity to telekinesis.

Has Mewtwo ever redirected an object that large with that amount of velocity?

Again, point? Nobody is digging, Mewtwo is flying, and you can't just move to dodge Aura Sphere, or else everyone would dodge it.

See above.

And Mario can't really do anything to him in this time.

Because...?

Mario already used half of those, and the other two were knocked out of him before he activated the invincibility.

How does Mewtwo knock out a power-up before it is used?

Mewtwo has used Mewtwonite by himself, and Mario's invincibility only lasts a little bit. He can't even do anything while he is a statue, and the statue power-ups are knocked out of him before he activates them.

When did this happen, and in what context? As for the rest, see above.

Also, a few Mewtwo feats I found on the first page of this thread.

• Mewtwo can destroy buildings with a thought.
• Mewtwo can teleport entire mountains.
• Mewtwo can redirect all projectiles.

So nothing stops Mewtwo from obliterating Mario once the Starman wears off. Don't say "Lucky Bell/Statue Leaf", because a building is more durable than Mario as a statue, unless you can prove otherwise.

Thwomps can crush parts of castles. They cannot crush the statue forms. Also, do you have sources for these feats? If not, they have no place in this discussion.

Also, Mewtwo could teleport Mario out of the arena. He has no way back in ten seconds, so he loses.

No teleporting yourself or the opponent outside the arena, remember?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

That sounds good to me.

Oh boy, this again. From a user on the Xenoblade Wiki (can be found on Alvis's wiki page):

Spoiler

Alvis is Monado, because Monado is actually the system that was used during Zanza's experiment (Alvis is another name for the experiment). Therefore, when they said that the Monado has the capability to change the world, it is proven true since it actually did.

As in, not the sword.

Regardless of the design reasons, we can't just ignore it. A likely explanation for the last two questions is that, first off, like any sensible person going into a stage filled with deadly traps, enemies, etc. that can knock every penny out of you in one hit, he leaves his money at home. As for the 999 limitation in action stages, I chalk that up to gameplay mechanics (unless he just uses a smaller wallet or something).

That's not a reason for us to nerf him.

We're testing the power of the characters, not their deity friends. How exactly is the rule a slippery slope?

K.

K.

Just covering every possibility.

What is your source for Monado Purge "sealing his movement"?

Except this one is mobile.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know where you're getting this movement sealing from.

Similarly, the Arts all have a cooldown time.

Until you provide a source for the immobilization, I'll be ignoring it. The Chaos Emeralds are stored inside of Sonic's body, and the transformation is instant (see the transformation in games such as Sonic 3 & Knuckles), so no such snatching will occur.

Just because one agile person didn't dodge an attack doesn't mean it's impossible to dodge; that is extrapolation.

Super Sonic is invulnerable to attacks, including Monado Purge. Even if Shulk did remove the transformation, he could just transform back and attack Shulk during Purge's cooldown.

Super Sonic is invincible, rendering of all Shulk's counters useless.

- Again, just covering all possibilities. Also, cooldown would prevent him from using Eater constantly, so Buster could fill in that gap.
- Mario can throw fireballs/iceballs in all directions via a Spin Jump, making them much harder to dodge.

Good luck concentrating on seeing the future with a fat Italian plumber bouncing on your head.

Mario can end the statue form at any time, and could presumably see where Shulk is, so if Shulk lined up in that way, Mario could just pop out and counter attack.

Again, I'm just covering all possibilities.

When has Monado Purge been shown to bring airborne foes crashing to the ground? The Cale Feather could be used for positioning, in combination with other power-ups (for example, Cape > Mega Mushroom up high > Ground Pound).

Fair enough. Mario could likely refuel using a combination of fire and ice, though.

The fireballs don't actually make foes catch fire; they just deal damage on contact. Monado Armour has a cooldown, while fire attacks do not.

Mario has shoes that allow him to jump on spiky enemies. Mario wouldn't need to save his star; by using it at the beginning, he could take out Shulk easily (and if not, there's always the 25-second Mega Mushroom).

Mario's mobility is also increased with a Starman. Knowing your opponent's next action won't help when that action is running towards you as an invincible rainbow man, nor will Monado Eater.

Except he can, because he's invincible.

Light Heal has a cooldown, does it not? Bind and Break won't connect on an invincible opponent.

Yes it is. When Mario equips a Starman (as shown in the console NSMB games), it is applied instantly.

Except Mario is invincible. Even if he already used his Starman, while Mewtwo is busy attacking Mario, he uses a fire attack to burn Mewtwo, and he dies in two minutes.

No, Mario's reserve power-ups getting knocked out of him.

How so? He seems to take falls rather well.

Such as?

Aura Sphere cannot hit opponents who are flying.
Mario is flying.
Therefore, Aura Sphere cannot hit Mario.

The reason Pokemon don't use Step Two Feet To The Side is because the turn-based gameplay does not allow for it.

Really? I don't recall that being agreed to.

Mewtwo would get burned upon getting hit by a fire attack.

Mario never drops his hammer, even when it's blocked.

That's why he switches in midair.

And he could use another one.

And one with limited PP.

It's practically instant, and I've discussed Mario's apparent resistance to brainwashing.

Has Mewtwo ever redirected an object that large with that amount of velocity?

See above.

Because...?

How does Mewtwo knock out a power-up before it is used?

When did this happen, and in what context? As for the rest, see above.

Thwomps can crush parts of castles. They cannot crush the statue forms. Also, do you have sources for these feats? If not, they have no place in this discussion.

No teleporting yourself or the opponent outside the arena, remember?

****s sake, how long did it take for you to write this?

 

[Munomario777]

****s sake, how long did it take for you to write this?

Quite a while, considering that I wrote it on a mobile device. I still have to fix the quotes, but I'll do that tomorrow, when I'm on my PC.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Yes it is. When Mario equips a Starman (as shown in the console NSMB games), it is applied instantly.

I wasn't referring to Starman though, I was referring to Lucky Bell/Statue Leaf.

Except Mario is invincible. Even if he already used his Starman, while Mewtwo is busy attacking Mario, he uses a fire attack to burn Mewtwo, and he dies in two minutes.

And Mewtwo flies over the burn attack easily.

No, Mario's reserve power-ups getting knocked out of him.

But they aren't in reserves when Mario uses one.

How so? He seems to take falls rather well.

Mewtwo attacks while Mario is getting up.

Such as?

Pokéballs.

Aura Sphere cannot hit opponents who are flying.
Mario is flying.
Therefore, Aura Sphere cannot hit Mario.

Certain attacks from above hit those who are flying. Mewtwo would be firing Aura Sphere from above.

The reason Pokemon don't use Step Two Feet To The Side is because the turn-based gameplay does not allow for it.

Then what do you think dodging is? The Pokémon going intangible?

Really? I don't recall that being agreed to.

Shadow and I are for, and I don't recall any opposition.

Mewtwo would get burned upon getting hit by a fire attack.

And Mario is afterward annihilated by Mewtwo thinking.

Mario never drops his hammer, even when it's blocked.

It's not just being blocked, Mario is being hit.

That's why he switches in midair.

And Mewtwo hits him while he's switching.

And he could use another one.

Getting knocked out of him.

And one with limited PP.

Yet, he still uses it.

It's practically instant, and I've discussed Mario's apparent resistance to brainwashing.

Mewtwo can still use the mindwipe when Mario pulls out the power-up. Has Mario ever dealt with mindwiping as powerful as Mewtwo's?

Has Mewtwo ever redirected an object that large with that amount of velocity?

He can redirect any projectile.

See above.

Aura Sphere would be an attack from above, something that Fly doesn't stop.

Because...?

Of Mega's high Defense/Special Defense stat.

How does Mewtwo knock out a power-up before it is used?

He's not; he's knocking out a power-up right after Mario equips it.

When did this happen, and in what context? As for the rest, see above.

That one's on you , sorry.

Thwomps can crush parts of castles. They cannot crush the statue forms. Also, do you have sources for these feats? If not, they have no place in this discussion.

They're in the first movie.

No teleporting yourself or the opponent outside the arena, remember?[/quote]
The rule is if you're out of the arena for ten seconds, you lose. Not that it isn't allowed to leave the arena.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I don't recall, but either way, Mario could just get up close and then activate the Mega Mushroom to catch her off guard.

Well until I can play Kid Icarus again, I'll just say in a vaccuum this is a viable attack, although I don't think it'd kill Palutena if she's at full health.

That seems to be due to Pokemon matches being rather civilized, and not attacking the trainer being either a rule of the matches or a general law (seeing as how it would likely kill a human).

I'd also argue he shouldn't be able to be hit because he's not actually fighting in game. When you select him on-screen, it's a picture of his 3 Pokemon.

How about in order to win against Pokemon Trainer you have to knock out him and all 6 Pokemon for victory. Knocking him out early would remove leadership and unity from the Pokemon(same strategy would work against Olimar).

Pokemon can fight on their own, and since it's not a trainer battle, there is no reason they couldn't continue...I'd still just prefer he couldn't be targeted, but I'm in favor of this if the majority votes to make him able to be targeted.

http://smashboards.com/threads/whos...racter-in-smash.347421/page-122#post-18923488
EDIT: in regards to Outside help:
allowed in any Summon[/quote]

Noted.
And It's not my argument, but @ Munomario777 , where did it say that Sonic can get 999,000 in Chao Garden. Didn't you say you saw that from some guy on Gamefaqs?

And I don't agree Monado Purge would seal Sonic's speed, but I think it would seal his Super Sonic form, just remember that it lasts is 14.5 seconds (not including any buffs or skill bonuses). Can he hit him enough times in 14.5 seconds to maintain Purging him all match?

Also, a few Mewtwo feats I found on the first page of this thread.

• Mewtwo can destroy buildings with a thought.
• Mewtwo can teleport entire mountains.
• Mewtwo can redirect all projectiles.

• When has this happened? Do you have a link?
• He did in Mewtwo Returns. It only took like 10 seconds minus monologuing. It should be much quicker to move a single person, like in the first movie. It should be noted though that in both movies no one is attacking him though, so he basically has a free action.
• Can doesn't equal always will. There are plenty of instances of Mewtwo getting hit by projectiles. Example, and one from a rather good distance too. However this leaves them immobile from what I can tell while using it.

Also, Mewtwo could teleport Mario out of the arena. He has no way back in ten seconds, so he loses.

Agreed. I don't believe we ever actually voted on this munomario, but I'm guessing you want one. I personally don't find this any different than Rosalina trapping someone in a black hole.

Also, after some research, I've come to the following conclusions about mewtwo's psychic powers:

• Psychic, Confusion and TK all do the same thing (in the anime). Bulbapedia also says this is how Mewtwo flies, but considering it doesn't hurt itself doing so, I'm not sure that this counts as PP usage.
• Additionally Psychic and Confusion can be used as barriers, beam attacks or telekinetic waves (the latter which do damage rather than controlling the foe).

 

[BaganSmashBros]

My bad, she may be able to beat him then but I'm still unsure. And idk, I didn't play Other M. Have you?

I did. Its awesome. But i never compared damage taken with or without suit, so, i don't know if its decreased or not, but ZS in Zero Mission offered Samus some protection against enemy attacks, so, we should use this one.

I'm still wondering why a darkburst wouldn't just end this battle instantly.

Sonic Boom would be more effective - its impossible to dodge and is the most powerful weapon she had in MP2 outside of Metroid Screw Attack and Power Bombs. And i don't think its just a normal sonic boom or something that uses sound if target instantly disappears if it kills it and because of the way hit GFX looks like (it looks more like a crack in reality than actual sonic boom). And maybe im wrong, but wasn't it safe to use echo visor when using sonic boom despite its screech and description? Most likely im wrong, but if im not, then it certainly has wrong name.

@Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ BaganSmashBros , can you revote (in Nerdicon's case vote) on Kirby-D's outside help rule? It's currently tied so we need yall to be the tie breaker.

Don't remember was there something like that, but if there was, then no outside help unless its something like Pokemon Trainer's pokemons or Olimar's Pikmins.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue Eh, like I told Muno, I can't provide any Pokémon videos or anything, so I don't have a link to the building being obliterated.

By the way, should we have Bagan/Godwin vote for either "summons that don't last forever" or "any summon" so we don't get the same result?

 

[Munomario777]

I wasn't referring to Starman though, I was referring to Lucky Bell/Statue Leaf.

Ah. It is pretty quick though, and before the statue form, Mario is a puff of smoke that I can't imagine would take damage. (See around 0:20 in this video.)

And Mewtwo flies over the burn attack easily.

No, he's busy attacking Mario.

Mewtwo attacks while Mario is getting up.

He always lands on his feet.

Pokéballs.

Pokéballs are solid objects. Water is made up of many, many tiny molecules that are separate from each other, and thus would be much harder to redirect.

Certain attacks from above hit those who are flying. Mewtwo would be firing Aura Sphere from above.

Then Mario could move perpendicular to the Aura Sphere. On the ground, this is up or down (Fly or Dig) or to the side. From above, this is to any side.

Then what do you think dodging is? The Pokémon going intangible?

Is there dodging in Pokemon?

Shadow and I are for, and I don't recall any opposition.

I don't think that everyone was properly tagged in that vote.

And Mario is afterward annihilated by Mewtwo thinking.

What exactly would Mewtwo be thinking? Mario just has to outlast Mewtwo for two minutes (if Mewtwo was at full health that is), which would be rather easy thanks to the statue forms.

It's not just being blocked, Mario is being hit.

He doesn't flinch.

And Mewtwo hits him while he's switching.

The transformation is instant.

Getting knocked out of him.

And getting hit with a fire attack.

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that Mario has yet another invincibility power-up. The Rainbow Star from the Galaxy games is basically the Starman+. It lasts longer (20 seconds to be exact), grants super speed, and as a bonus, it leaves afterimages that might make aiming a bit tricky for Mewtwo. The only downside is that Mario can't equip a new power-up while he's using this, but he could just equip whatever he needs before activating the Rainbow Star.

Yet, he still uses it.

I know, I'm just pointing it out.

Mewtwo can still use the mindwipe when Mario pulls out the power-up. Has Mario ever dealt with mindwiping as powerful as Mewtwo's?

Kamek can brainwash, yet Mario is not brainwashed at any of the dozens of Kamek encounters.

Aura Sphere would be an attack from above, something that Fly doesn't stop.

Because Pokemon using Fly are going straight up. Mario can fly up and down and all around.

Of Mega's high Defense/Special Defense stat.

Dry Bones seem to have an extremely high defense and special defense (they cannot be defeated by jumping, spinning, fireballs, etc.), yet the Ice Flower and crushing (and presumably the Mega Mushroom, which uses crushing to defeat enemies) can defeat it. I don't see why this would not apply to Mewtwo as well.

That one's on you , sorry.

No, it's on you, because you're making the claim.

They're in the first movie.

Do you have video of this?

The rule is if you're out of the arena for ten seconds, you lose. Not that it isn't allowed to leave the arena.

I added this to my rules proposals a while back, and no one responded IIRC.

Well until I can play Kid Icarus again, I'll just say in a vaccuum this is a viable attack, although I don't think it'd kill Palutena if she's at full health.

Can Palutena survive being crushed by large objects?

I'd also argue he shouldn't be able to be hit because he's not actually fighting in game. When you select him on-screen, it's a picture of his 3 Pokemon.

Notice the Trainer's face in that image.

And It's not my argument, but @ Munomario777 , where did it say that Sonic can get 999,000 in Chao Garden. Didn't you say you saw that from some guy on Gamefaqs?

Aside from that, it also makes the most logical sense. We can see from the most expensive items in the Black Market that the Ring count clearly goes into the hundred thousands (since there are six-digit prices on some items). All other Ring counts in the Sonic series are nines (999, 9,999, etc.). The limit of 999,999 fits best here, due to both the item prices and the patterns that the series as a whole has set, so that's what I'm working with.

And I don't agree Monado Purge would seal Sonic's speed, but I think it would seal his Super Sonic form, just remember that it lasts is 14.5 seconds (not including any buffs or skill bonuses). Can he hit him enough times in 14.5 seconds to maintain Purging him all match?

Super Sonic is invulnerable to attacks. Monado Purge is an attack. Thus, Super Sonic is invulnerable to Monado Purge. Even if he did somehow get knocked out of Super Sonic, he could just transform right back; it's practically instant. The cooldown would then give him enough time to finish Shulk off.

Agreed. I don't believe we ever actually voted on this munomario, but I'm guessing you want one. I personally don't find this any different than Rosalina trapping someone in a black hole.

Yes, I think a vote would be in order. Allow me to explain my reasons.

• The goal is to defeat the opponent, not force them to forfeit.
• Teleporting someone outside of the arena goes against the "nothing comes in, nothing comes out" mentality of the arena.
• The exterior of the battlefield isn't determined.
• As for the black hole comparison, a black hole is still inside of the arena, while the outside areas are not.

With that said, @Dryn, @Nerdicon, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @everyone else, what are your votes?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Yes, I think a vote would be in order. Allow me to explain my reasons.

• The goal is to defeat the opponent, not force them to forfeit.
• Teleporting someone outside of the arena goes against the "nothing comes in, nothing comes out" mentality of the arena.
• The exterior of the battlefield isn't determined.
• As for the black hole comparison, a black hole is still inside of the arena, while the outside areas are not.

With that said, @Dryn, @Nerdicon, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @everyone else, what are your votes?

Don't know what to think of it.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I did. Its awesome. But i never compared damage taken with or without suit, so, i don't know if its decreased or not, but ZS in Zero Mission offered Samus some protection against enemy attacks, so, we should use this one.

Really, so your disagree with the bad reviews than? and ok on ZSS.

Don't remember was there something like that, but if there was, then no outside help unless its something like Pokemon Trainer's pokemons or Olimar's Pikmins.

Acknowledged, but if you had to choose between temporary summons or any summons, what would you pick?

Can Palutena survive being crushed by large objects?

I presume she's at worst at least as durable against them as Pit.

Notice the Trainer's face in that image.

Notice what happens when you click on the image though. Trainer doesn't pop up.

Aside from that, it also makes the most logical sense. We can see from the most expensive items in the Black Market that the Ring count clearly goes into the hundred thousands (since there are six-digit prices on some items). All other Ring counts in the Sonic series are nines (999, 9,999, etc.). The limit of 999,999 fits best here, due to both the item prices and the patterns that the series as a whole has set, so that's what I'm working with.

But you can't actually bring them into the main mode. Like Reckless said, I don't see it being different than giving Sonic access to a bank. All the rings Sonic collects are held there but that doesn't necessarily mean he can hold that many rings in his proverbial wallet.

Super Sonic is invulnerable to attacks. Monado Purge is an attack. Thus, Super Sonic is invulnerable to Monado Purge. Even if he did somehow get knocked out of Super Sonic, he could just transform right back; it's practically instant. The cooldown would then give him enough time to finish Shulk off.

I was referring specifically to Sonic before he transformed. I don't believe Purge would work on Super Sonic since he is invincible.

Yes, I think a vote would be in order. Allow me to explain my reasons.

• The goal is to defeat the opponent, not force them to forfeit.
• Teleporting someone outside of the arena goes against the "nothing comes in, nothing comes out" mentality of the arena.
• The exterior of the battlefield isn't determined.
• As for the black hole comparison, a black hole is still inside of the arena, while the outside areas are not.

With that said, @Dryn, @Nerdicon, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @everyone else, what are your votes?

I'm actually in favor of no forced teleports out, I was just saying it's not against the current rules.

As for the Palutena thing, we didn't actually have a vote. It's something I brought up that Kirby-D liked and you didn't. I guess we should put it up for a vote. BTW, what happened to no more debates until new thread? I think we all need to pause.

Anyway: @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 : should Palutena get unlimited use of Powers? I propose this because of 2 reasons:

• Being a goddess, she should have more power than Pit, Dark Pit and Centurions. It would make sense that she wouldn't have limits on how many times she can use them, or at least that the number of times she can use them are indefinitely high.
• Since Palutena can grant Powers to her army, doesn't it make sense she'd be able refresh her power supply constantly?

BTW, that's one question, I just listed the 2 reasons I think she should get more-or-less unlimited uses of her powers.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Really, so your disagree with the bad reviews than? and ok on ZSS.

Well, i just ignore story and d-pad never bothered me. Some things still are horrible like story and lack of music (something fixed by listening to Harmony of a Hunter remixes), but everything else is fine.

Acknowledged, but if you had to choose between temporary summons or any summons, what would you pick?

Temporary summons then.

But you can't actually bring them into the main mode. Like Reckless said, I don't see it being different than giving Sonic access to a bank. All the rings Sonic collects are held there but that doesn't necessarily mean he can hold that many rings in his proverbial wallet.

In such case, he should be limited to how much he can carry in main mode.

Anyway: @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 : should Palutena get unlimited use of Powers? I propose this because of 2 reasons:

• Being a goddess, she should have more power than Pit, Dark Pit and Centurions. It would make sense that she wouldn't have limits on how many times she can use them, or at least that the number of times she can use them are indefinitely high.
• Since Palutena can grant Powers to her army, doesn't it make sense she'd be able refresh her power supply constantly?

BTW, that's one question, I just listed the 2 reasons I think she should get more-or-less unlimited uses of her powers.

I'll just quote certain old man:

"POWAH! *zap* UNLIMITED POWAH!"

 

[Munomario777]

I presume she's at worst at least as durable against them as Pit.

And how durable is Pit to crushing?

Notice what happens when you click on the image though. Trainer doesn't pop up.

Oh really?

Also, he is present in the official artwork:

But you can't actually bring them into the main mode. Like Reckless said, I don't see it being different than giving Sonic access to a bank. All the rings Sonic collects are held there but that doesn't necessarily mean he can hold that many rings in his proverbial wallet.

Then how is he paying with hundreds of thousands of Rings in cash? I agree that he might have a bank to store his hard-earned Rings in when he's going on his risky adventures (because who wouldn't leave their life savings in a safe place when you're going to fight deadly robots that can knock every penny out of you in one hit), but I find the notion that Sonic isn't holding the Rings in the Chao Garden mode rather silly, especially when he's paying in cash without a credit card to be seen.

I was referring specifically to Sonic before he transformed. I don't believe Purge would work on Super Sonic since he is invincible.

Ah, okay.

I'm actually in favor of no forced teleports out, I was just saying it's not against the current rules.

Glad we're on the same page.

As for the Palutena thing, we didn't actually have a vote. It's something I brought up that Kirby-D liked and you didn't. I guess we should put it up for a vote. BTW, what happened to no more debates until new thread? I think we all need to pause.

If @ Kirby Dragons stops bringing the subject up, I'll stop replying to it.

Anyway: @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 : should Palutena get unlimited use of Powers? I propose this because of 2 reasons:

• Being a goddess, she should have more power than Pit, Dark Pit and Centurions. It would make sense that she wouldn't have limits on how many times she can use them, or at least that the number of times she can use them are indefinitely high.
• Since Palutena can grant Powers to her army, doesn't it make sense she'd be able refresh her power supply constantly?

BTW, that's one question, I just listed the 2 reasons I think she should get more-or-less unlimited uses of her powers.

While Palutena is likely more powerful than Pit, we shouldn't make this sort of assumption until we get hard evidence from the games.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777
Not sure what to make of that proposal.

EDIT: I'm voting for the ability to leave the arena (if possible), and also get your opponents to leave the arena for a win. I mean, if the goal was really to defeat your opponent, then ties would be won by the person that caused them.

 

[Crystanium]

I didn't say he couldn't just that he didn't use it in WW. And I because Link and Zelda have their individual Triforce pieces, neither Link nor Ganondorf gets access to the triforce.

Well, if Ganondorf was fighting Link or Zelda, then none would have the Triforce in that case. I'll work with the idea that no one is receiving star rods or the Triforce to end this.

I also agree he should get 6, and I say we just give him the 6 Red had since those include the 3 you mentioned. I'm marking you down for 2. And you didn't vote on whether he should only be allowed one at once or as many as he wants.

I think PT should be able to bring out all his Pokemon at once, but I don't think it would be his character to bring out all his Pokemon if he's fighting one-on-one.

Ok, but fyi every trainer isn't Red.

I know, but I'm assuming PT from Fire Red/Leaf Green would be Red, rather than Ash.

Exactly what the last sentence said: is 20 seconds per turn (enemy and user combined) more agreeable to you than one minute?

You know, if it's just going to be status changes or ailments, I'll be fine with 1 minute.

Yes, and Link has enough "life energy" to take a bomb to the face eighty times in a row.

Not if life energy is vitality. I suppose it could be understood as ki in that regard, it being "the breath of life itself".

If his defense is always being added by the mail, then how exactly does he access it by wearing a ring on his finger? Also, why would it not matter whether or not it affects his skin and bones?

In the same way wearing a ring to enhance his sword damage works. Skin cannot withstand high temperatures. At least at or above 48°C is when skin will be damaged. 60°C can cause second- and third-degree burns. If the defense applied to Link's skin, then Link would be able to withstand 90°C, assuming we should treat it that way. So if Link had up to 500% damage reduction, then he'd only be able to withstand up to 300°C before experiencing second- to third-degree burns, which is well below the temperature produced by the plasma beams in the Metroid Prime trilogy and the power bomb.

Not in lore, gameplay, or other sources.*

I include game play into lore, as well as other sources that are the original media.

The fact that you can blow up a fairy with multiple bombs in a row and it won't even flinch (and that's when it's just out in the open).

Would you apply that to the people of Kakariko Village as well?

I prefer using an explanation with a couple of relatively reasonable assumptions to just dismissing something as a "game mechanic".

"Game mechanic" uses the fewest assumptions and makes more sense than making up other alternatives based on ad hoc hypotheses.

Well, his clothes remaining intact seems rather necessary to maintain that E For Everyone rating, if you know what I mean. Link himself takes damage from the lava, so why wouldn't the fairy? (Unless, of course, the fairy, the bottle, or wherever Link keeps his items is just resistant to heat and such.)

For the same reason Link's bow doesn't get incinerated.

Fairies don't seem to be affected at all by high temperatures, though. They can go into lava along with Link multiple times, get shot with fire arrows, blown up with bombs multiple times, and still be completely unscathed and ready to heal Link back to full health.

I've pointed out my reasoning.

Then why are you adding three more characters to the Pokemon Trainer?

Because Pokemon trainers are more likely to have six Pokemon than they are to have three and because that's the total you can carry with you in Fire Red/Leaf Green.

Ah, but it would. You see, the person who attempted the wish is given the piece of the Triforce that most exemplifies them. Since Ganon is rather powerful, he gets the Triforce of Power. The other two pieces go to someone else, and who it picks depends on that same exemplifying deal. Link is courageous, for example, so he gets the Triforce of Courage. In a one-on-one fight, both pieces would debatably go to Ganon's opponent (nothing enters/exits the arena, so that would limit the options to the opponent), but if it was, say, Ganondorf VS Palutena, then she would most definitely get the Triforce of Wisdom.

Do you think Zelda is wiser than Impa? The Triforce of Wisdom is not granted to her. It's granted to those who have the spirit of the hero, the blood of the goddess, and the incarnation of Demise's hatred. I'm fine with no one getting star rods or the Triforce, though.

A fairy can be dived into lava with time after time after time until Link dies from it, and it will still be completely unscathed. If getting dunked into lava doesn't so much as scathe the fairy, and it has shown to have resistance to all other means of attack (likely explained by its native healing abilities), then I don't see how one Power Bomb would kill it.

Because the temperature of magma is the same as that of a power bomb, right?

As for the darkburst, Link's footwear could help him here in two ways. First off, the Iron Boots would weigh him down tremendously in order to negate the suction, albeit at the cost of mobility. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the Pegasus Boots and the Bunny Hood, which would allow Link to increase his speed dramatically to avoid and outrun the darkbursts while still attacking Samus.

The iron boots in TP could probably be quantified in the battle against Argorok. The Japanese name for Argorok is is Awoken Flame Pterosaur: Nardobrear. The Korean translation uses "pterodactyl". Looking up, "How much did a pterosaur weight" on Google and Wikipedia on Pterosaur size says, "The largest of these are estimated to have weighed 250 kilograms (550 lb.)." So we could at least assume for Link, the iron boots weigh more than that, due to its high density. If Link uses iron boots to prevent getting pulled in, he will receive damage. (Ingsmashers can still be pulled in after receiving enough damage.)

The problem, of course, is assuming Link will know what the darkburst is capable of doing. Using Pegasus boots has a start-up time. Then there's sonic boom, which "distorts time and space" according to Mark Pacini who worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy. Its purpose was created around the final battle against Dark Samus, who is capable of reforming short of atomic disruption. We've been through this, of course.

How about in order to win against Pokemon Trainer you have to knock out him and all 6 Pokemon for victory. Knocking him out early would remove leadership and unity from the Pokemon(same strategy would work against Olimar).

That could work.

Sonic Boom would be more effective - its impossible to dodge and is the most powerful weapon she had in MP2 outside of Metroid Screw Attack and Power Bombs. And i don't think its just a normal sonic boom or something that uses sound if target instantly disappears if it kills it and because of the way hit GFX looks like (it looks more like a crack in reality than actual sonic boom). And maybe im wrong, but wasn't it safe to use echo visor when using sonic boom despite its screech and description? Most likely im wrong, but if im not, then it certainly has wrong name.

I agree. If you want to get an idea of how powerful a laser would have to be to possibly create a rift in spacetime, it'd be 200 petawatts.

Anyway, I think Palutena should have a vast use of powers.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Well, i just ignore story and d-pad never bothered me. Some things still are horrible like story and lack of music (something fixed by listening to Harmony of a Hunter remixes), but everything else is fine.

You seem trustworthy so I think I'll check it out and just pretend Samus has PTSD from losing the baby Metroid that makes her act so submissive and weak in this game (which is what I've heard).

Temporary summons then.

All right @ Kirby Dragons , it's 3 for temporary summons and 2 for all summons We just need to wait on nerdicon and reckless to revote. Assuming they do so in a timely manner.

I'll just quote certain old man:

If you hadn't said old man and zips I'd have thought it was a Kirby quote. But I'm counting that as for.

And how durable is Pit to crushing?

I don't believe there are any crushing things in Pit...

Oh really?

....that link did nothing to disprove my point, and of course he's in the artwork, he's the representative/leader. But I can tell we're going in circles on this so let's just leave it up the vote.

Then how is he paying with hundreds of thousands of Rings in cash? I agree that he might have a bank to store his hard-earned Rings in when he's going on his risky adventures (because who wouldn't leave their life savings in a safe place when you're going to fight deadly robots that can knock every penny out of you in one hit), but I find the notion that Sonic isn't holding the Rings in the Chao Garden mode rather silly, especially when he's paying in cash without a credit card to be seen.

Because every ring he collects goes into Chao Garden for some reason. I'm not implying he's not physically holding them in Chao Garden, I'm saying it's just a game mechanic of that side mode. I wish I could think of another analogy involving mini-games, but my point is mini-games/side modes (whatever you classify Chao Garden as) are known to limit or exaggerate what characters can do.
@ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @Nerdicon , what do you guys think?

While Palutena is likely more powerful than Pit, we shouldn't make this sort of assumption until we get hard evidence from the games.

I understand you're reasoning, but I still think it's worth voting on.

Well, if Ganondorf was fighting Link or Zelda, then none would have the Triforce in that case. I'll work with the idea that no one is receiving star rods or the Triforce to end this.

Ok.

I think PT should be able to bring out all his Pokemon at once, but I don't think it would be his character to bring out all his Pokemon if he's fighting one-on-one.

Might feel different if he's allowed to be targeted, but noted.

I know, but I'm assuming PT from Fire Red/Leaf Green would be Red, rather than Ash.

Oh, ok.

You know, if it's just going to be status changes or ailments, I'll be fine with 1 minute.

K.

Anyway, I think Palutena should have a vast use of powers.

Well that's 4-1. On an unrelated note, do you not feel like giving a top 10-20 tier list? You don't need to, just curious. So far we only have 3 (mine, muno's and Kirby-D).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Because every ring he collects goes into Chao Garden for some reason. I'm not implying he's not physically holding them in Chao Garden, I'm saying it's just a game mechanic of that side mode. I wish I could think of another analogy involving mini-games, but my point is mini-games/side modes (whatever you classify Chao Garden as) are known to limit or exaggerate what characters can do.
@ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @Nerdicon , what do you guys think?

I'm agreeing with you on this.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Better than what?

Better than Shulk’s placement on that tier list. Said Mechon mook would give the likes of Ike, Diddy Kong, Duck Hunt, Yoshi and Ice Climbers a hard time due to near immunity to physical attacks.

1. No, since you don't need Alvis's permission to use the Monado. I assume that's what you were getting at?
2. Still violates the ally rule as it currently stands.
3. Someone already told you a gossip stone said this.
4. Take it up with Munomario. I've actually been wondering myself since we've never seen proof. As far as in game combat goes, munomario did show proof he can get at least 9,999 rings.
5. Possible, I'd have to research. I believe Lucina mentioned it grows weaker over time though, so if so we're giving it to him at optimal strength.

1. Yes. Ok than
2. Can we reconsider that rule?
3. I know now.
   
4. I would like to see video proof from Munomario as well because wikis aren‘t an effective substitute for the real thing. Sonic would still get 167 minutes of super time with 10K rings.
5. Ok, but we are going to have to define ways to bypass it.

Attacks that cause temporary buffs or debuffs, or attacks like Hyper Beam in Pokemon that have a turn start-up or cool-down.

Ok so attacks with the equivalent of very high start or end lag.

Not sure what you're getting at.
Was referring specifically to Shulk using Alvis to recreate world.

Ok I’m fine with no active support from Alvis.

As Dryn brought up, Mega stones didn't exist then so PT can't use 'em.

That could just be because of gameplay mechanics(they didn't exist due to not being invented by the developers at that time). You might want to put that up for a vote(I‘m fine with permitting it).

I meant Adventure, not Dream Land.

Mistake forgiven as I have a phonographic memory and even I screw up now and then.

And I don't agree Monado Purge would seal Sonic's speed, but I think it would seal his Super Sonic form, just remember that it lasts is 14.5 seconds (not including any buffs or skill bonuses). Can he hit him enough times in 14.5 seconds to maintain Purging him all match?

Purge stops the victim in it's tracks rather than their speed. Monado Purge drains talent gauge by 75%, Auto attack fills it by 20% per hit, therefore only 4 hits(3 with one use of Stream Edge(+15 to gauge)) to get back to full(25+(20*4)=105). Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WokdPQ3vg08 of player fighting Breezy Zolos, uses Monado Purge at 27:22 and 27:36(14 second difference). This player is only using a Double Attack 20%(talent gauge refill rate 1.2 times normal) and could do a better job of spamming Purge. Our Shulk will be using Glory Gauntlets’ Haste 45% and Double Attack 15% from skills for a refill rate of 1.67 times normal(39% faster than in the video). Shulk could easily spam Purge often enough to keep the aura seal in effect under these circumstances. In order to do this to Sonic he would have to trigger Sonic’s Recoil animation(when he gets hurt and drops rings) which should leave open a short window to connect with a attack. Said opening could be caused by disorientation inflicted by a Failed attack on Monado Shield, injury caused by Shulk’s Spike gem(Sonic won’t know about this until after being injured by it once) or a successful hit from a ether based Monado Art(Ether Arts can either hit or hit but be resisted) such as Purge, Eater, or Cyclone.

As for the Palutena thing, we didn't actually have a vote. It's something I brought up that Kirby-D liked and you didn't. I guess we should put it up for a vote. BTW, what happened to no more debates until new thread? I think we all need to pause.
Anyway: @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 : should Palutena get unlimited use of Powers? I propose this because of 2 reasons:

• Being a goddess, she should have more power than Pit, Dark Pit and Centurions. It would make sense that she wouldn't have limits on how many times she can use them, or at least that the number of times she can use them are indefinitely high.
• Since Palutena can grant Powers to her army, doesn't it make sense she'd be able refresh her power supply constantly?

BTW, that's one question, I just listed the 2 reasons I think she should get more-or-less unlimited uses of her powers.

I don‘t know, as they sound like they are acquired from chests and Boxes.

By the way, should we have Bagan/Godwin vote for either "summons that don't last forever" or "any summon" so we don't get the same result?

I’ve already gone with the latter option.

Yes, I think a vote would be in order. Allow me to explain my reasons.

• The goal is to defeat the opponent, not force them to forfeit.
• Teleporting someone outside of the arena goes against the "nothing comes in, nothing comes out" mentality of the arena.
• The exterior of the battlefield isn't determined.
• As for the black hole comparison, a black hole is still inside of the arena, while the outside areas are not.

With that said, @Dryn, @Nerdicon, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @everyone else, what are your votes?

I wouldn’t consider a forfeit a victory because it is the rules rather than the opponent that beat the participant.

Oh boy, this again. From a user on the Xenoblade Wiki (can be found on Alvis's wiki page):

Spoiler

Alvis is Monado, because Monado is actually the system that was used during Zanza's experiment (Alvis is another name for the experiment). Therefore, when they said that the Monado has the capability to change the world, it is proven true since it actually did.

As in, not the sword.

In game cutscene>Wiki user. “I am the administrative computer of a phase transition experiment facility. But that will mean little to you. To you, I am a machine. That is my original form“(Source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&index=101&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP 28:11-28:29). Nowhere in there does he state that the name of the experiment explicitly is Alvis or Monado! We can’t assume the experiment is called Monado because Zanza has claimed to have forged the Monado himself (Source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5rhe7ekhA&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=40 14:40-15:01). I hope this argument isn’t because of a misunderstanding as Xeno games in general are like that(only Metal Gear Solid is worst). He also speaks about the Monado in the present tense rather than the past tense(the aforementioned facility was wiped out with the rest of the old universe). Kirby Dragons a little help here?

Regardless of the design reasons, we can't just ignore it. A likely explanation for the last two questions is that, first off, like any sensible person going into a stage filled with deadly traps, enemies, etc. that can knock every penny out of you in one hit, he leaves his money at home. As for the 999 limitation in action stages, I chalk that up to gameplay mechanics (unless he just uses a smaller wallet or something).

How is he going to get all his rings knocked out of him if he is in Super Sonic form? It would be foolish to hold back against a god of destruction when we can’t even predict how powerful they really are(just to let you know creation deities tend to be substantially more powerful from my experience). The rings left behind in the bank would be worthless to Sonic if underestimating his opponent gets him killed.

What is your source for Monado Purge "sealing his movement"? As I mentioned earlier, I don't know where you're getting this movement sealing from.

Link:youtube.com/watch?v=xm955w13LVw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=25 at 27:54-28:27 and Link:youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK0GyJaD4&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=30 at 16:06-16:40.

Except this one is mobile.

Should we save this part of the debate for the next thread?

Similarly, the Arts all have a cooldown time.

Monado Arts don’t have cooldowns, they use the talent gauge.

Until you provide a source for the immobilization, I'll be ignoring it. The Chaos Emeralds are stored inside of Sonic's body, and the transformation is instant (see the transformation in games such as Sonic 3 & Knuckles), so no such snatching will occur.

The Monado is greater than or equal to the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald so it should be able to inhibit the Chaos Emeralds like the Master Emerald does. Doesn’t Knuckles knock the emeralds out of Sonic in Sonic 3 because of the Master Emeralds power?

Just because one agile person didn't dodge an attack doesn't mean it's impossible to dodge; that is extrapolation.

No that is a game mechanic like Mewtwo’s Aura Sphere. Sonic isn’t that fast in gameplay as he can still be taken out by Robotnik’s weak and pathetic robots. Also a Telethia is a beast not a person. Did anyone even look at the cutscene feats I posted?

Super Sonic is invulnerable to attacks, including Monado Purge. Even if Shulk did remove the transformation, he could just transform back and attack Shulk during Purge's cooldown.

Super Sonic is far from invulnerable as you stated he can be hurt by very high-end missiles and by being crushed, and therefore the god-slaying Monado should be able to pierce his invincibility. Purge negates the current aura in effect and seals all auras for a period of time. Super Sonic and multiple wisp transformations are accompanied by an aura, and should therefore be fair game for Monado Purge.

- Again, just covering all possibilities. Also, cooldown would prevent him from using Eater constantly, so Buster could fill in that gap.
- Mario can throw fireballs/iceballs in all directions via a Spin Jump, making them much harder to dodge.

Buster and Eater run off the same talent gauge, so using Buster would have wasted a chance at Eater. Shulk will still be able to find the holes in the projectile patterns.

Good luck concentrating on seeing the future with a fat Italian plumber bouncing on your head.

You do know people can concentrate while under attack and Mario is going to suffer a nasty case of spike damage if he does manage to connect.

Mario can end the statue form at any time, and could presumably see where Shulk is, so if Shulk lined up in that way, Mario could just pop out and counter attack.

Statue Mario doesn’t have eyes in the back of his head doe he? If he does hit Shulk say goodbye to statue leaf.

When has Monado Purge been shown to bring airborne foes crashing to the ground? The Cale Feather could be used for positioning, in combination with other power-ups (for example, Cape > Mega Mushroom up high > Ground Pound).

Monado Purge inflicts damage, damage equals loss of power up. Shulk sees the attack coming, dodges out of the way and avoids being stomped on by jumping on top of Giant Mario. He has done precisely this to Metal Face, Yaldabaoth, a random very large Telethia and The Final Boss. You can see them in links 1, 12, 13 and 14 in the spoiler in post 4857.

The fireballs don't actually make foes catch fire; they just deal damage on contact. Monado Armour has a cooldown, while fire attacks do not.

Then how is Mewtwo suffering burn damage? Fatal or near-fatal attack equals vision, thanks to Glorious Future skill vision equals full talent gauge, full talent gauge equals one Monado Art of Shulk’s choice.

Mario has shoes that allow him to jump on spiky enemies. Mario wouldn't need to save his star; by using it at the beginning, he could take out Shulk easily (and if not, there's always the 25-second Mega Mushroom).

Shulk is not a Spiky enemy, as the spike damage comes from his Spike gem and would work on all melee strikes including stomps, hammer blows and punches. You really think Mario can take Shulk out by tackling him while under the influence of the Starman?

Mario's mobility is also increased with a Starman. Knowing your opponent's next action won't help when that action is running towards you as an invincible rainbow man, nor will Monado Eater.

How great is Mario’s mobility with the Starman? Mario is not invincible with the Starman when it comes to crushing, black holes or bottomless pits.

Except he can, because he's invincible.

Now your going back on your word(1st post of page 100, in regard to mario's melee attacks being ineffective due to the Monado's superior reach)?

Light Heal has a cooldown, does it not? Bind and Break won't connect on an invincible opponent.

You have to prove that Mario can hit Shulk hard and fast enough to counteract Light Heal’s restorative power. Mario won’t be invincible the entire time.

MunoMario777 how many Sonic and Mario games have you played? I just want to know how familiar you are on the subject, as I've only played Sonic 1, 2, 3+Knuckles and the mainline Mario games up through the 1st galaxy.

We need to discuss the nature of invincibility power ups. We know they won’t protect against crushing, black holes or bottomless pits and how do they OHKO common enemies(My guess: spike style damage or tackles)? According to MunoMario Mario can OHKO Palutena by runing into her with the Starman! What happens when Starman Mario runs into Magic Armor Link(Chateau Romani edition)?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'm agreeing with you on this.

K.

Anyway, reposting the updated rules since it's been a few pages and some things have changed. But first, pending rules:

1. All summons being allowed vs only temporary summons (3 vs 3. Kirby D, Reckless & Dryn for all summons; me, muno, Bagan for temporary.)
2. Palutena doesnt have limits on her power use. 4-1. (For: Me, Bagan, Dryn and Kirby D; Against: Muno
3. Sonic gets the max of rings he's had in main mode; Chao Garden doesn't count. I believe the most digits a counter has displayed is 4, so he'd only be allowed to carry 9,999 rings. If my math is right, that means he can stay in Super Sonic form for 84 minutes (rounding up). But since he dies if hit without rings, he'd probably want to save some. 3-1. (For: Me, Bagan, and Kirby D; Against: Muno)
4. Characters don't get items/weapons they don't really own and only appeared in one game, a la the Triforce for Ganon (A Link to the Past), Samus's Hyper Beam or the Star Rod for Kirby or Bowser, etc. Current vote: 4-1 (for: Me, Dryn , Bagan and Muno; against: Kirby D) , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Nerdicon haven't voted on this.
5. PT should get access to Mega Stones despite them not existing in FireRed/Leaf Green. Reckless-G argues that's a game mechanic. EDIT: Red used them in Pokemon Origins, so I think that's evidence they should be usable. Current vote 3-0. (For: Me, Reckless G and Bagan.)
6. PT (if mega stones are allowed) can Mega Evolve multiple 'mons. current vote: 4-1 (For: Kirby D, Muno, Bagan, & Reckless. Against: Dryn)

1. Teleport in Kid Icarus, Pokemon and Zelda can be used freely, although Kid Icarus and Pokemon have limited uses and Link's involves him setting a warp point the first time he uses it and then the second time he uses it he can either warp there or make where he is using Farore's win a new warp point
2. Bowser's Star Rod grants any wish, but he can't wish opponents from existence because it goes against his mentality.
3. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well
4. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs outs, and from there can use one Super Missile in place of 5 missiles.
5. Pokemon only can hold one item.
6. Zelda and Shiek do NOT get their moves from Hyrule Warriors
7. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes; C) have 3 out at once. Should get all of listed effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
8. Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems.
9. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)
10. A turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs
11. PT gets the 6 Pokemon Red had: Pikachu, Venasaur, Blastoise, Charizard, Snorlax and Lapras.
12. PT can be targeted but you must knock out all 6 of his 'mons to beat him. Killing him won't win the battle.
13. PT can use as many Pokemon as he wants at a time.

Currently editing to respond to Reckless.

Better than Shulk’s placement on that tier list. Said Mechon mook would give the likes of Ike, Diddy Kong, Duck Hunt, Yoshi and Ice Climbers a hard time due to near immunity to physical attacks.

He's so low because of his lack of projectiles. I feel like any character with a strong projectile game would be able to defeat Shulk. Take Bowser Jr for example, exactly how does Shulk beat him when he just hovers in the air and peppers him with bombs and fire balls, with the occasional snarl to freeze (not ice wise) him if gets close?

1. Yes. Ok than
2. Can we reconsider that rule?
3. I know now.
   
4. I would like to see video proof from Munomario as well because wikis aren‘t an effective substitute for the real thing. Sonic would still get 167 minutes of super time with 10K rings.
5. Ok, but we are going to have to define ways to bypass it.

1. Good.
2. You can vote to allow all summons. Currently temporary summons has a 3 to 2 edge over allowing all summons.
3. k
4. What game can he get 10k rings?
5. Any projectile bypasses it. Is that what you mean?

Ok so attacks with the equivalent of very high start or end lag.

Yep

Ok I’m fine with no active support from Alvis.

Good.

That could just be because of gameplay mechanics(they didn't exist due to not being invented by the developers at that time). You might want to put that up for a vote(I‘m fine with permitting it).

True. I'm putting it up for a vote.

Purge stops the victim in it's tracks rather than their speed. Monado Purge drains talent gauge by 75%, Auto attack fills it by 20% per hit, therefore only 4 hits(3 with one use of Stream Edge(+15 to gauge)) to get back to full(25+(20*4)=105). Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WokdPQ3vg08 of player fighting Breezy Zolos, uses Monado Purge at 27:22 and 27:36(14 second difference). This player is only using a Double Attack 20%(talent gauge refill rate 1.2 times normal) and could do a better job of spamming Purge. Our Shulk will be using Glory Gauntlets’ Haste 45% and Double Attack 15% from skills for a refill rate of 1.67 times normal(39% faster than in the video). Shulk could easily spam Purge often enough to keep the aura seal in effect under these circumstances. In order to do this to Sonic he would have to trigger Sonic’s Recoil animation(when he gets hurt and drops rings) which should leave open a short window to connect with a attack. Said opening could be caused by disorientation inflicted by a Failed attack on Monado Shield, injury caused by Shulk’s Spike gem(Sonic won’t know about this until after being injured by it once) or a successful hit from a ether based Monado Art(Ether Arts can either hit or hit but be resisted) such as Purge, Eater, or Cyclone.

I agree with your later point that the Monado should be able to hurt Sonic. But my point is, can Shulk hit Sonic or Super Sonic 4 times in a 14.5 second span considering how fast he can run (fly for SS)?

I don‘t know, as they sound like they are acquired from chests and Boxes.

You have to find them, but she can grant you to them. One example is if you select autofill for Powers, Palutena will appear and fill up your powers for you.

The Monado is greater than or equal to the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald so it should be able to inhibit the Chaos Emeralds like the Master Emerald does. Doesn’t Knuckles knock the emeralds out of Sonic in Sonic 3 because of the Master Emeralds power?

I agree with this. Monado affects the fabric of the universe, so I think it could hurt Super Sonic.

We need to discuss the nature of invincibility power ups. We know they won’t protect against crushing, black holes or bottomless pits and how do they OHKO common enemies(My guess: spike style damage or tackles)? According to MunoMario Mario can OHKO Palutena by runing into her with the Starman! What happens when Starman Mario runs into Magic Armor Link(Chateau Romani edition)?

I think not protecting against crushing is game mechanic, and Starman would not OHKO Palutena. It only OHKO's common enemies because they die upon being damaged once.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

1. All summons being allowed vs only temporary summons (2 vs 3. Kirby D & Dryn for all summons; me, muno, Bagan for temporary.

It's a tie now. @Nerdicon is the deciding factor. In the chance he doesn't vote, we can use this that he said 1000 pages ago.

In my opinion if they can summon the assistance it's fair game, but if they're just part of a team or command an army they can't appear, for example I'd allow Palutena's centurions but not Bowser's Koopa Troop

1. Bowser's Star Rod grants any wish, but he can't wish opponents from existence because it goes against his mentality.

Like I said earlier, Bowser not wishing someone out of existence is most likely a result of PIS. The game would be unwinnable if he did that.

1. PT gets the 6 Pokemon Red had: Pikachu, Venasaur, Blastoise, Charizard, Snorlax and Lapras.

If the trainer is Red, that means he should be able to use different Pokémon. He got the National Dex, meaning he has the potential to catch more. Or did we just decide on that team only? I don't think it shows his true power.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

You seem trustworthy so I think I'll check it out and just pretend Samus has PTSD from losing the baby Metroid that makes her act so submissive and weak in this game (which is what I've heard).

I don't think she is weak when most of creatures she faces gets their faces blown off and even worse. And you can't do much when you aren't supposed to be here and Adam's team had right to just tell her to go somewhere else.

K.

Anyway, reposting the updated rules since it's been a few pages and some things have changed. But first, pending rules:

1. All summons being allowed vs only temporary summons (2 vs 3. Kirby D & Dryn for all summons; me, muno, Bagan for temporary.
2. Palutena doesnt have limits on her power use. 4-1. (For: Me, Bagan, Dryn and Kirby D; Against: Muno
3. Sonic gets the max of rings he's had in main mode; Chao Garden doesn't count. I believe the most digits a counter has displayed is 4, so he'd only be allowed to carry 9,999 rings. If my math is right, that means he can stay in Super Sonic form for 84 minutes (rounding up). But since he dies if hit without rings, he'd probably want to save some. 3-1. (For: Me, Bagan, and Kirby D; Against: Muno)
4. Characters don't get items/weapons they don't really own and only appeared in one game, a la the Triforce for Ganon (A Link to the Past), Samus's Hyper Beam or the Star Rod for Kirby or Bowser, etc. Current vote: 3-1 (for: Me, Dryn and Muno; against: Kirby D) @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Nerdicon haven't voted on this.
5. PT should get access to Mega Stones despite them not existing in FireRed/Leaf Green. Reckless-G argues that's a game mechanic. Current vote 2-0. (For: Me, Reckless G.)

4 - im for it. As for 5 - it depends on when mega stones were discovered in Pokemon universe.

If the trainer is Red, that means he should be able to use different Pokémon. He got the National Dex, meaning he has the potential to catch more. Or did we just decide on that team only? I don't think it shows his true power.

Yes, but he already has a...er...canonical team. Its seen in few games where he appears outside of Gen 1.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

It's a tie now. @Nerdicon is the deciding factor. In the chance he doesn't vote, we can use this that he said 1000 pages ago.

Fine with me. But Kirby still can't summon MK because Master requires him wielding MK's sword. Loaned items don't count.

Like I said earlier, Bowser not wishing someone out of existence is most likely a result of PIS. The game would be unwinnable if he did that.

I don't disagree.

If the trainer is Red, that means he should be able to use different Pokémon. He got the National Dex, meaning he has the potential to catch more. Or did we just decide on that team only? I don't think it shows his true power.

We voted on it, and the majority agreed to give him that team. I don't think we're going to agree on what his 6 best 'mons are, and that would be A LOT of work, so I think it's simpler to just give him Red's team. Also, I liked Bagan's reason.

I don't think she is weak when most of creatures she faces gets their faces blown off and even worse. And you can't do much when you aren't supposed to be here and Adam's team had right to just tell her to go somewhere else.

I meant weak as in accepting orders to not use power-ups even when her life is at danger just because Adam said not to. And showing a lot more emotion than usual.
4 - im for it. As for 5 - it depends on when mega stones were discovered in Pokemon universe.

[/QUOTE]
4) K.
5) The pokemon timeline is very messy now, but it's existed for thousands of years and according to this, Mega Evolution should have been known. Plus Red in Origins can use them. Good point!

Yes, but he already has a...er...canonical team. Its seen in few games where he appears outside of Gen 1.