Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[mark welford]

I don't think it does in the actual Mario games. Also, @ Nerdicon 's talking in regards to Rosalina versus Palutena, so Mario's not really a factor.

My bad I'm a idiot.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Eh. There is no slow or fast teleport, he just throws the cape over himself and vanishes. It should be noted that you never actually see MK teleport to an area, always away. Hmmm.
Anyway, there's no rule that says that MK can't block magic. In his boss fights when he blocked he was invincible and in KSSU he was nearly invincible (certain attacks did minor damage). Nothing would actually pierce the barrier other than chameleo arm's swallow attack and still lava. Robin doesn't have anything like that so MK could block his attacks. Still, with lack of knowledge on how MK's teleport works, I have to agree

Slow teleport refers to how he teleports whenever he leaves the arena. You can see his cape wrap around him as he's teleporting off-screen but you see him the whole way. There's no reason to think if he used that teleport to appear on-screen it would behave any differently. The fast teleport's never really been seen in the actual games though, I may be thinking of Smash Bros.

Also, just went back and played a few minutes of KSSU and you’re right, his shield can block magic. However more than "certain" attacks hurt him while he's guarding. Just from the first stage alone: Plasma Wisp's charge beam, falling worm from Whispy Woods, and Whispy Woods breath. I don't know how close plasma isn to electricity, but I think we can agree Kirby’s plasma ability works like a lightning power-up, or pretty close. If a weak enemy like Plasma Wisp’s charge beam hurts his shield, would do you think blocking a spell described as “ancient lightning magic” that’s one of the strongest spells in the game could do to that shield? Same applies for Ceclia’s Gale vs the Whispy Woods Twins breath attack.

Also, blocking attacks that suck HP out (Aversa’s Night) usually isn’t good defense…

By the way, I feel that in light of recent events vs as well as all of 's matches need to be revisited.
(Thread dead is thread)

agreed

 

[Munomario777]

VS
FIGHT!

Rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Sonic used a one-time-use shield to block one of Robin's attacks, Robin could simply attack again after the shield was broken and Sonic would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Sonic may use anything compiled in this post.
• Robin gets to use all of his classes from FE: Awakening, and can switch between them at will; however, only the male classes will be used (so no female-exclusive classes like the bride).
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's get right into this analysis! First up, Robin is on the offensive!
's Attack: Grandmaster
Represented in Smash 4's Robin character, the Grandmaster class has great commanding ability and also allows Robin to use both Swords and Tomes. The Levin Sword is Robin's signature blade, and possesses electrical abilities. Since Robin is rather skilled in Magic usage, these attacks are quite powerful. Notable Tomes include:

• Nosferatu recovers half of the damage done to the enemy to Robin (so if the attack deals 10 damage, Robin is healed for 5 damage). Requires the target to be close to Robin.
• Arcfire is a powerful fire-based attack, which creates a pillar of fire upon landing on the ground. The flames could possibly singe Pit's wings to hinder his flight.
• Meteor summons a meteor shower to attack opponents, dealing high damage; however, it is rather inaccurate, and has few uses.
• Bolganone creates a volcano in the ground, causing a full-scale eruption! Not as powerful as Meteor, but is more accurate.
• Arcwind is a wind-type attack, so it is useful against aerial opponents (read: Pit). It summons green wind blades from all angles, but could be escaped via moving vertically.
• Tornado is wind-based as well, and useful against flying foes. It's not as powerful as Thoron or Bolganone, but is faster than those attacks.
• Arcthunder summons multiple lightning bolts from the skies to strike down on the opponent, dealing heavy damage.
• Thoron encases the target inside of an orb of pure electricity, keeping them in place, damaging them, and leaving them open to attack.

's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic's blazing speed and reflexes allow him to dodge practically any attack.

's Attack: Great Knight
The Great Knight class gives Robin heavy armor, a mount, and powerful attacks with a variety of Swords, Lances, and Axes; however, they are quite slow.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
Robin's speed is reduced, making his attacks easier to dodge and leaving him open for a counter attack.

's Attack: General
This class also has Robin don a suit of armor, but with more armor and less horse. Even slower, larger, stronger, and tougher than the Great Knight class.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
Robin's speed is reduced even more, making his attacks easier to dodge and leaving him open for a counter attack.

's Attack: Sniper
This grants Robin great ranged attacks with a powerful bow.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can react to things travelling at supersonic speeds, so an arrow shouldn't be a problem.

's Attack: Sorcerer
This allows Robin to use all of the different Tomes, including those not granted to Grandmasters.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!/Elemental Shields
In addition to his speed and reflexes, Sonic also possesses Fire and Electric Shields to negate fire and electrical attacks respectively.

's Attack: Griffon Rider
Robin mounts a griffon (flying lion with the head of an eagle) for great aerial mobility, speed, and dodging ability.
's Counter: Extreme Gear/Sonic Wind
Sonic also has a flying mount, that being the hoverboard-esque Extreme Gear. He also possesses the Sonic Wind, a wind blade projectile, which could be used to shoot Robin down from the skies.

With Robin's attacks done and dusted, it seems like Sonic has quite the advantage here! However, can Robin turn things around when Sonic goes on the offensive?
's Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
's Counter: Well... Counter.
Robin's Counter skill allows him to inflict half of the damage dealt to him to the opponent that dealt it.
's Counter: Not the Smash Bros. Counter
However, Robin still takes the full damage of the attack when using Counter, so he would still be knocked out by Sonic's sheer speed, and Sonic is very tough himself; he can recover from practically any hit just by grabbing his Rings again.

's Attack: Spin Jump
Sonic can utilize his natural ability to curl up into a ball when he jumps, damaging any opponent he comes in contact with.
's Counter: Projectile
Sonic's spinning attacks don't protect him from projectiles, so using a projectile such as some of his Tomes is Robin's best bet here.

's Attack: Spin Dash
Sonic can rev up in ball form, and after a couple of seconds, launch off at top speed in his damaging ball form.
's Counter: Projectile
Sonic's spinning attacks don't protect him from projectiles, so using a projectile such as some of his Tomes is Robin's best bet here.
's Counter Counter: Maneuverability
Sonic can control his speed extremely well, to the point of being able to turn on a dime. Coupled with his lightning-fast reflexes, this would allow him to dodge anything Robin could throw at him (including lightning).

's Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
's Counter: N/A
Robin's reflexes aren't even close to being fast enough to dodge this (or most of Sonic's attacks, in fact).

's Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
's Counter: N/A
Robin's reflexes aren't even close to being fast enough to dodge this (or most of Sonic's attacks, in fact).

's Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
's Counter: N/A
Sonic's light speed movements would make it so that Robin couldn't even comprehend that Sonic was attacking before it's too late, let alone dodge the attack.

's Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
's Counter: General
The General class's heavy armor would prevent Robin from being sucked up by the tornado; his weapons would still get sucked in, however.

's Attack: The Wisps
The Wisps are a race of alien power-ups that can grant Sonic different Color Powers. These include a bomb, a black hole, a laser, and more.
's Counter: N/A
The only Wisp that Robin is really immune to is the Rhythm Wisp, but that one's useless anyway.

's Attack: Chaos Control!
Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds' power to teleport, freeze time, and more.
's Counter: N/A
Even if Robin had good reaction time, it's no use if time is completely frozen.

's Attack: Super Sonic Style!
Sonic's ultimate transformation, this has Sonic harness the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic is faster, invincible, stronger, flying, and more, at the cost of one Ring per second. With a maximum of 999 Rings, Sonic can stay in this form for about sixteen and a half minutes. This is more than enough time for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle.
's Counter: ...
I got nothin'.

CONCLUSION: While Robin has an impressive arsenal of aliases, weapons, and magical abilities, Sonic's pure speed, strength, and Chaos Emerald abilities are more than enough to overpower Robin.

WINNERL

 

[mark welford]

VS
FIGHT!

Rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Sonic used a one-time-use shield to block one of Robin's attacks, Robin could simply attack again after the shield was broken and Sonic would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Sonic may use anything compiled in this post.
• Robin gets to use all of his classes from FE: Awakening, and can switch between them at will; however, only the male classes will be used (so no female-exclusive classes like the bride).
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's get right into this analysis! First up, Robin is on the offensive!
's Attack: Grandmaster
Represented in Smash 4's Robin character, the Grandmaster class has great commanding ability and also allows Robin to use both Swords and Tomes. The Levin Sword is Robin's signature blade, and possesses electrical abilities. Since Robin is rather skilled in Magic usage, these attacks are quite powerful. Notable Tomes include:

• Nosferatu recovers half of the damage done to the enemy to Robin (so if the attack deals 10 damage, Robin is healed for 5 damage). Requires the target to be close to Robin.
• Arcfire is a powerful fire-based attack, which creates a pillar of fire upon landing on the ground. The flames could possibly singe Pit's wings to hinder his flight.
• Meteor summons a meteor shower to attack opponents, dealing high damage; however, it is rather inaccurate, and has few uses.
• Bolganone creates a volcano in the ground, causing a full-scale eruption! Not as powerful as Meteor, but is more accurate.
• Arcwind is a wind-type attack, so it is useful against aerial opponents (read: Pit). It summons green wind blades from all angles, but could be escaped via moving vertically.
• Tornado is wind-based as well, and useful against flying foes. It's not as powerful as Thoron or Bolganone, but is faster than those attacks.
• Arcthunder summons multiple lightning bolts from the skies to strike down on the opponent, dealing heavy damage.
• Thoron encases the target inside of an orb of pure electricity, keeping them in place, damaging them, and leaving them open to attack.

's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic's blazing speed and reflexes allow him to dodge practically any attack.

's Attack: Great Knight
The Great Knight class gives Robin heavy armor, a mount, and powerful attacks with a variety of Swords, Lances, and Axes; however, they are quite slow.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
Robin's speed is reduced, making his attacks easier to dodge and leaving him open for a counter attack.

's Attack: General
This class also has Robin don a suit of armor, but with more armor and less horse. Even slower, larger, stronger, and tougher than the Great Knight class.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
Robin's speed is reduced even more, making his attacks easier to dodge and leaving him open for a counter attack.

's Attack: Sniper
This grants Robin great ranged attacks with a powerful bow.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can react to things travelling at supersonic speeds, so an arrow shouldn't be a problem.

's Attack: Sorcerer
This allows Robin to use all of the different Tomes, including those not granted to Grandmasters.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!/Elemental Shields
In addition to his speed and reflexes, Sonic also possesses Fire and Electric Shields to negate fire and electrical attacks respectively.

's Attack: Griffon Rider
Robin mounts a griffon (flying lion with the head of an eagle) for great aerial mobility, speed, and dodging ability.
's Counter: Extreme Gear/Sonic Wind
Sonic also has a flying mount, that being the hoverboard-esque Extreme Gear. He also possesses the Sonic Wind, a wind blade projectile, which could be used to shoot Robin down from the skies.

With Robin's attacks done and dusted, it seems like Sonic has quite the advantage here! However, can Robin turn things around when Sonic goes on the offensive?
's Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
's Counter: Well... Counter.
Robin's Counter skill allows him to inflict half of the damage dealt to him to the opponent that dealt it.
's Counter: Not the Smash Bros. Counter
However, Robin still takes the full damage of the attack when using Counter, so he would still be knocked out by Sonic's sheer speed, and Sonic is very tough himself; he can recover from practically any hit just by grabbing his Rings again.

's Attack: Spin Jump
Sonic can utilize his natural ability to curl up into a ball when he jumps, damaging any opponent he comes in contact with.
's Counter: Projectile
Sonic's spinning attacks don't protect him from projectiles, so using a projectile such as some of his Tomes is Robin's best bet here.

's Attack: Spin Dash
Sonic can rev up in ball form, and after a couple of seconds, launch off at top speed in his damaging ball form.
's Counter: Projectile
Sonic's spinning attacks don't protect him from projectiles, so using a projectile such as some of his Tomes is Robin's best bet here.
's Counter Counter: Maneuverability
Sonic can control his speed extremely well, to the point of being able to turn on a dime. Coupled with his lightning-fast reflexes, this would allow him to dodge anything Robin could throw at him (including lightning).

's Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
's Counter: N/A
Robin's reflexes aren't even close to being fast enough to dodge this (or most of Sonic's attacks, in fact).

's Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
's Counter: N/A
Robin's reflexes aren't even close to being fast enough to dodge this (or most of Sonic's attacks, in fact).

's Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
's Counter: N/A
Sonic's light speed movements would make it so that Robin couldn't even comprehend that Sonic was attacking before it's too late, let alone dodge the attack.

's Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
's Counter: General
The General class's heavy armor would prevent Robin from being sucked up by the tornado; his weapons would still get sucked in, however.

's Attack: The Wisps
The Wisps are a race of alien power-ups that can grant Sonic different Color Powers. These include a bomb, a black hole, a laser, and more.
's Counter: N/A
The only Wisp that Robin is really immune to is the Rhythm Wisp, but that one's useless anyway.

's Attack: Chaos Control!
Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds' power to teleport, freeze time, and more.
's Counter: N/A
Even if Robin had good reaction time, it's no use if time is completely frozen.

's Attack: Super Sonic Style!
Sonic's ultimate transformation, this has Sonic harness the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic is faster, invincible, stronger, flying, and more, at the cost of one Ring per second. With a maximum of 999 Rings, Sonic can stay in this form for about sixteen and a half minutes. This is more than enough time for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle.
's Counter: ...
I got nothin'.

CONCLUSION: While Robin has an impressive arsenal of aliases, weapons, and magical abilities, Sonic's pure speed, strength, and Chaos Emerald abilities are more than enough to overpower Robin.

WINNERL

Wow Sonic is fast, strong and durable. I just love short and cartoony characters.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I know Dryn said he's leaving but I want to leave these in case he comes back:

Responses in Bold.

@ Munomario777


Claims in the lore

• "The only weapon potent enough to defeat the wizard is the legendary Master Sword." - Loyal Sage, A Link to the Past. The Wizard referred to Agahnim, not Ganon. We don't know if Agahnim is exactly the same just because he's his alter ego.

• "It is none other than the Master Sword . . . The blade of evil's bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!" - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker Like Munomario said, the King said sword. Not weapon. More importantly, Silver arrows don't exist in this game (or outside the Decline Time line in general) so why would he mention them?

• "You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not spark with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless. Go back to the world below, and tell that to the pathetic fools who made this blade! Its power is gone, and its edges are dull!" - Ganon, The Wind Waker This hurts your argument, the Master Sword lost it's divine power and thus no longer hurts Ganon. Samus lacks any weapons blessed by gods.

• "You cannot defeat Ganon until the power to repel evil has been returned to the Master Sword." - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker ONce again, Silver Arrows don't exist so why would he bring them up?

Simply put, these claims are false by their own lore. I've pointed out the ignorance of these characters before. If anyone wishes to say something along the lines of, "The Magic Sword and silver arrows can harm Ganondorf because they have the power to repel evil", you're missing the point.

They didn't contradict themselves, the quote about the Wizard was not about Ganon, and in no games where the silver arrows existed was it ever said only the Master sword could harm Ganon.

Ganondorf's invulnerability can be pierced

• "And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses . . . The power given to the chosen ones . . . The sacred Arrow of Light!!!" - Zelda, Ocarina of Time

• "You got the Light Arrow! When you take out your bow, use [R] to change arrowheads, then fire away. The sacred light of these arrows can pierce pure evil itself!" - N/A, The Wind Waker

If Ganondorf's defenses can be pierced, then why can't two piercing weapons in Samus' arsenal (the wave and plasma beam) pierce through Ganondorf's defenses? If "the power to repel evil" is necessary, I've already demonstrated that the lore contradicts itself.
Light Arrows don't pierce defenses, they are specifically made to PIERCE evil.

You do realize that these are referring to Ganondorf's beast form, correct? I'd say the reason why the Biggoron Sword doesn't defeat Ganondorf is not because it cannot, but because the Master Sword is an integral part of the story, that it's used to defeat Ganondorf. It doesn't even kill him.

Not true, the Megaton Hammer and Biggoron sword also hurt Ganon, they just can't kill him. Same as with Ganondorf. I look at it as you can lower his HP as much as you want but only the Master Sword or Silver arrows can do a finishing blow. It's not that different from how you can only call Stalfos in some games with bombs that blow up their skull but you can reduce them to a pile of bones however.
And Master Sword didn't need Light arrows to hurt Ganondorf in OoT, that was just the only way to get him in a vulnerable state, otherwise if I recall he just flew around out of Link's reach.

how about vs. ? or vs. ? Just wondering.

I can give you Robin vs Sonic:

Sonic runs out of Robin's range, goes Super Sonic, goes back and kills Robin. Same strategy for almost every other fight. TBH Sonic's boring to talk about with Super Sonic abilities imo. It would be like a character in Smash having an invincibility star, golden hammer jet pack and bunny ears that lasts 10,000 minutes. Ridiculously OP.

vs
Wheel Kirby or Mirror Kirby, either one of these destroys Palutena without much effort, sending her to losers in place of Kirby, which means Palutena and Rosalina fight again, and I've already weighed in on that.
I've also heard talk of C-Link being able to defeat Samus, but I personally don't agree just because use Link can't hit Samus without magic

How does Wheel or Mirror stop him from getting swallowed by a black hole? And how does wheel wreck palutena when she can float indefinitely?

And you say that Like C-Link's magic is weak or slow. Did you forget about the Pegasus Boots that would let him get close to her (because he is slower).
And Magic Cape + Chateua Romani or Magic Armor means he can outlast Samus even if he does have problems hitting her.
Also if he gets close enough with Megaton hammer he can send shockwave that will temporarily freeze her, though she'd only fall for that once.

Also, about light penetrating Rosaluma's barrier: I don't think we can presume just because light through that a light attack goes through, unless an attack is just pure light like blinding flash. Light attacks might have some kind of energy behind them.

He definitely has the right weapon for the job, since Ragnell is blessed by the gods. However, I'm not sure that the rest of him quite holds up. He is rather slow, after all, and I don't think that Ganondorf would have a hard time finishing him off before he could land the final blow.

Not true, Ike's got above average speed (if he doesn't get RNG screwed) and unlike in Brawl he swings that blade fast. I don't think he wins because of Ganondorf's range, but if gets up close than Ganon's in trouble.

EDIT: I agree with Sonic beating Robin but disagreed on some details:

(Something's wrong with my format, so I had to bold the responses.)

VS
FIGHT!

• 
  
• Robin gets to use all of his classes from FE: Awakening, and can switch between them at will; however, only the male classes will be used (so no female-exclusive classes like the bride).
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

[\quote]

Does Robin get to switch skills with each class too? Or must he use the same 5 throughout?

's Attack: Grandmaster
Represented in Smash 4's Robin character, the Grandmaster class has great commanding ability and also allows Robin to use both Swords and Tomes. The Levin Sword is Robin's signature blade, and possesses electrical abilities. Since Robin is rather skilled in Magic usage, these attacks are quite powerful. Notable Tomes include:

• Nosferatu recovers half of the damage done to the enemy to Robin (so if the attack deals 10 damage, Robin is healed for 5 damage). Requires the target to be close to Robin.
• Arcfire is a powerful fire-based attack, which creates a pillar of fire upon landing on the ground. The flames could possibly singe Pit's wings to hinder his flight.
• Meteor summons a meteor shower to attack opponents, dealing high damage; however, it is rather inaccurate, and has few uses.
• Bolganone creates a volcano in the ground, causing a full-scale eruption! Not as powerful as Meteor, but is more accurate.
• Arcwind is a wind-type attack, so it is useful against aerial opponents (read: Pit). It summons green wind blades from all angles, but could be escaped via moving vertically.
• Tornado is wind-based as well, and useful against flying foes. It's not as powerful as Thoron or Bolganone, but is faster than those attacks.
• Arcthunder summons multiple lightning bolts from the skies to strike down on the opponent, dealing heavy damage.
• Thoron encases the target inside of an orb of pure electricity, keeping them in place, damaging them, and leaving them open to attack.

's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic's blazing speed and reflexes allow him to dodge practically any attack.

Grandmaster Robin can't use Nosferatu, and to my knowledge Awakening has no spells called "tornado" and "meteor". Also Nosferatu (which he wouldn't use, Aversa's Night does the same thing as is like 2.2 times stronger) is a long range attack.

's Attack: General
This class also has Robin don a suit of armor, but with more armor and less horse. Even slower, larger, stronger, and tougher than the Great Knight class.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
Robin's speed is reduced even more, making his attacks easier to dodge and leaving him open for a counter attack.

If Robin used this it would be strictly for counterattacking since it's obviously to slow to catch Sonic. Just saying.

's Attack: Sniper
This grants Robin great ranged attacks with a powerful bow.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can react to things travelling at supersonic speeds, so an arrow shouldn't be a problem.

No reason to use this class unless Sonic has magic resistance.

's Attack: Sorcerer
This allows Robin to use all of the different Tomes, including those not granted to Grandmasters.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!/Elemental Shields
In addition to his speed and reflexes, Sonic also possesses Fire and Electric Shields to negate fire and electrical attacks respectively.

Far easier said than done, but the optimal way to land Aversa's NIght on Sonic would be too wait (and hope) he tries a physical attack, particularly and aerial one, and then strike.

Sonic vs Griffon Rider

To the best of my knowledge, the Extreme Gear can't actually fly, just hover if it gets a big enough jump. Since the arena is flat, it won't help him here.
Second, the flying mounts in FIre Emblem can actually FLY, just like a bird. Youtube Fire Emblem Awakening Love Birds cutscene for an example. They don't just hover off the ground.
Third, riders get hit all the time without falling off, so that wouldn't be an issue.
4th, he could counter Sonic Wind with Throwing axes. Chrom's blade struck against magic in the intro scene so I think it's possible. Or we could just use female Robin and let him be a dark flier and shoot back at Sonic Wind with magic while in the air.

's Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
's Counter: Well... Counter.
Robin's Counter skill allows him to inflict half of the damage dealt to him to the opponent that dealt it.

Full damage returned, not half.

's Counter: Not the Smash Bros. Counter
However, Robin still takes the full damage of the attack when using Counter, so he would still be knocked out by Sonic's sheer speed, and Sonic is very tough himself; he can recover from practically any hit just by grabbing his Rings again.

His rings usually disappear quick, so he can only get a few. In the time's running around, Robin can hit him Valflame or one of his other large magical blasting spells.
Also why do you assume Robin gets knocked out in one blow? Doesn't seem like a fair assumption.

's Attack: Spin Dash
Sonic can rev up in ball form, and after a couple of seconds, launch off at top speed in his damaging ball form.
's Counter: Projectile
Sonic's spinning attacks don't protect him from projectiles, so using a projectile such as some of his Tomes is Robin's best bet here.
's Counter Counter: Maneuverability
Sonic can control his speed extremely well, to the point of being able to turn on a dime. Coupled with his lightning-fast reflexes, this would allow him to dodge anything Robin could throw at him (including lightning).

Counter also works just fine here. In the event it's a fatal attack, his best bet is too just shoot a spell in front of him when Sonic gets in range. I don't think Sonic can turn that well in Spin dash form.

's Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
's Counter: N/A
Robin's reflexes aren't even close to being fast enough to dodge this (or most of Sonic's attacks, in fact).

Counter works just fine. Or he can take to the air and dodge it.

's Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
's Counter: N/A
Robin's reflexes aren't even close to being fast enough to dodge this (or most of Sonic's attacks, in fact).

Counter works just fine. And if it's a fatal attack, Vantage, like Shulk's visions, guarantees Robin can get an attack off first (though Sonic can dodge it).

's Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
's Counter: N/A
Sonic's light speed movements would make it so that Robin couldn't even comprehend that Sonic was attacking before it's too late, let alone dodge the attack.

See above.

's Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
's Counter: General
The General class's heavy armor would prevent Robin from being sucked up by the tornado; his weapons would still get sucked in, however.

Unless it's specifically stated to remove weapons, enemies use tornadoes on Robin all the time without removing his weapons. Also all of his weapons not in his hand are in hyperspace, like LInk's.

CONCLUSION: While Robin has an impressive arsenal of aliases, weapons, and magical abilities, Sonic's pure speed, strength, and Chaos Emerald abilities are more than enough to overpower Robin.

WINNERL

In the end Sonic's chaos Control and Emeralds make all of my arguments moot though.

@ Munomario777 I edited post to respond to Sonic vs Robin.

 

[Nerdicon]

How does Wheel or Mirror stop him from getting swallowed by a black hole? And how does wheel wreck palutena when she can float indefinitely?

Because Palutena's Black Hole power does not behave like a normal black hole, anyone with a reasonable amount of speed can escape it's pull. Even then it only does minute damage. Wheel defeats Palutena because wheel travels at incredibly high speeds (with max stats in Kirby Air Ride in can reach a whopping 216 mph!) and is completely invincible while moving. In conjunction with the magical paintbrush to catch airborne opponents, Palutena doesn't stand a chance. Mirror Kirby can create an army of clones (because anime and hierarchy of discussion) that all have an invincible guard that reflects projectiles and a mirror sword thingy.

And you say that Like C-Link's magic is weak or slow. Did you forget about the Pegasus Boots that would let him get close to her (because he is slower).
And Magic Cape + Chateua Romani or Magic Armor means he can outlast Samus even if he does have problems hitting her.
Also if he gets close enough with Megaton hammer he can send shockwave that will temporarily freeze her, though she'd only fall for that once.

Why would Samus get close? Once she realized she couldn't do anything she'd probably just run away. If she could do that for 3 days is debatable though.

Also, about light penetrating Rosaluma's barrier: I don't think we can presume just because light through that a light attack goes through, unless an attack is just pure light like blinding flash. Light attacks might have some kind of energy behind them.

If something is transparent, EM (electromagnetic) waves can pass through it. Lasers are by definition radiation and therefore an EM wave, so anyone with a laser attack can pierce her shield.

 

[mark welford]

Would it be wrong to say that Sonic is one of the strongest characters in smash canon wise?

 

[Nerdicon]

So are we redoing Rosalina's matches or no? I'm not touching the bracket until I have a definitive answer.

 

[Munomario777]

So are we redoing Rosalina's matches or no? I'm not touching the bracket until I have a definitive answer.

If you're willing to redo the necessary matches, I'll edit the bracket accordingly.

 

[Nerdicon]

vs
FIGHT!!!
Rules have been stated above and I'm too lazy to list them again
All powers from Kid Icarus Uprising
Let's start it off!
Attacker: Palutena
's attack: Time for a sacrifice!
Palutena has a PLETHORA of different light based projectiles, from three homing shots, to three pillars of light, to three slow moving balls of light, or a halo that fires three different shots, to three fast straight moving shots.
's counter: Barrier/ Lumas/ Getting out of the way
In any of these cases the Lumas could protect Rosalina from any real harm, I would think her forcefield would help too. And most of these attacks are so slow she could probably move out of the way
's Counter x2: Homing Boost
The Homing boost makes the attacks easier to land, but that doesn't really get around...
's counter x3: Still Lumas
The attacks may be easier to hit but they won't get by the Lumas

's attack: Palutena Glam Blaster!
Giant mega death laser of death. Killed the main Hewdraw body in one shot
's counter: Takes too long
The Glam Blaster takes forever to charge. She wouldn't have nearly enough time to charge the attack before Rosalina attacked her

's attack: Heavenly Light
While not a direct attack, it can still add some chip damage.
"s counter: N/A
Rosalina has no way of preventing this attack from doing damage, but the damage is pretty negligible

's attack: Mega Laser
A large laser that activates instantly and pierces some defenses
's counter: Gravity?
The lumas are too flimsy to protect their mother from the laser, but if she had a large body in the way (say a planetoid or star or something) it would take the hit instead. So the only way she could avoid this attack is if Rosalina had protection beforehand

's attack: Black Hole!
A black hole-esque object that has a strong gravitational pull and does damage at the middle
's counter: It doesn't effect the wild Rosalina...
Rosalina has, on numerous occasions, displayed a general lack of influence from gravity. Even floating in front of what looks like a supermassive black hole without budging an inch

's attack: Explosive Flame!
An explosive flame, nothing else to see here
's counter: It still doesn't effect the wild Rosalina...
In SMG Rosalina can usually be found casually standing in front of a blue-white star, which can be upwards of 10,000 Kelvin or 17540.33 Fahrenheit. The explosive flame only seems to be a red flame which at hottest can reach 1,500+ degrees F.

's attack: Meteor Shower!
Meteor like projectiles rain from the sky in an erratic fashion
's counter: Inaccuracy/ Lumas
Besides the fact that most of the meteors will completely miss, the Lumas could create a sort of shield around Rosalina

's attack: MELEE!
When all else fails right? Palutena has a spin attack as well as a charge to hit close enemies
's counter: Shield
Rosalina's shield comes into effect here as these single hit melee attacks are what the shield blocked in the original SMG

's attack: Cover your eyes!
A flash bang effect, only works at close range.
's counter: Lumas/ why would I be close anyway?
There's really no reason Rosalina would be close to Palutena, but if she did get hit her Lumas would be at the ready to protect her

Alright
Attacker: Rosalina
's attack: Spinning!
An up close melee attack, can be performed by the Lumas at a much safer distance
's counter: Well...Counter.
The counter power allows the user to instantly attack whoever attacked them last, the user won't flinch from the last attack they took

's attack: Star Bits!
More of an annoyance than anything, can be used to stun enemies
's counter: Reflect Barrier/ That really all you got?
Besides the star bits being incredibly weak, they could be reflected by the reflect barrier

's attack: PLANET IN UR FACE!!
Causing a Luma to violently explode into a galaxy in your opponent's face probably doesn't feel too good
's counter: Brief Invincibility
The small window of invincibility from this power gives her just enough time to escape being blown to bits

's attack: How bout a REAL star!
An appropriately sized star would roast her foes alive without much resistance
's Counter: N/A
This would cover the entire area, Palutena can't stay invincible forever

's attack: And how about a real black hole!
A more realistic black hole created from a Luma gone supermassive
's counter: N/A
Palutena would be ripped to shreds with no way of escaping the Black Hole's pull

Summary
While Palutena certainly had the advantage in variety, Rosalina didn't need variety to put the goddess of light in her place.

WINNER: Rosalina and Luma(s)

A lot of Lumas were harmed in the creation of this analysis.

Yeah, I disagree with myself now
STRANGE ISN'T IT?!?!?
There isn't much in-depth discussion to be done in this case because Palutena has really one big trump card, the mega laser. The Mega Laser is an instant multi-hitting, piercing, massive laser that pretty much hands Palutena the win. As such I will explain the counterpoints that may come up on the subject.

's counter: Shield!
Doesn't Rosalina have an indestructible shield or something like that? Can't she just throw that up and be safe?
The Reality: Rosalina's shield is completely transparent, meaning that EM waves can pass through object to whatever is on the other side with little to no diffusion. Lasers are by definition radiation and therefore a type of EM wave (probably something higher on the spectrum)

's counter: Lumas!
The Lumas will sacrifice their own lives to protect their mother, they could block the attack for her so she doesn't get hit.
The Reality: The Mega Laser hits all opponents in its range, constantly and without delays. It would hit all the Lumas and Rosalina, so her children will not help her here.

's counter: 'Tis only a flesh wound!
Well, the Mega Laser does a respectable amount of damage if all hits connect, but the odds of that happening are close to none. So Rosalina could easily survive the blast right?
The Reality: In Rosalina's only canon appearance, she could take 2 hits before dying (in her base form). The Mega Laser activates instantly and registers two hits in less than a second. Rosalina would probably be dead before she realized it

's counter: But that's not fair!
In the same game Rosalina could only take two hits, she also had invincibility frames when hit. So if she did get hit, she could use the invincible time to attack and recuperate.
The Reality: Invincibility frames are a gameplay mechanic so that games are actually possible. I mean imagine for a second, if games had no invincibility frames. A lot harder right?

's counter: Well why would she use it anyway?
Sure, with prior knowledge on Rosalina Mega Laser is the obvious choice, but why would Palutena who's never met Rosalina know the perfect attack to use?
The Reality: Despite Mega Laser being Palutena's best option when the match starts regardless of Rosalina's glaring weakness (the instant firing of the attack plus long range equals free damage) Palutena has seemingly infinite knowledge, knowing information on an unknown alien species seconds after seeing it.

I feel that covers all the possible counterpoints, if you feel I missed something, please point it out. thx
Winner: Palutena

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Because Palutena's Black Hole power does not behave like a normal black hole, anyone with a reasonable amount of speed can escape it's pull. Even then it only does minute damage. Wheel defeats Palutena because wheel travels at incredibly high speeds (with max stats in Kirby Air Ride in can reach a whopping 216 mph!) and is completely invincible while moving. In conjunction with the magical paintbrush to catch airborne opponents, Palutena doesn't stand a chance. Mirror Kirby can create an army of clones (because anime and hierarchy of discussion) that all have an invincible guard that reflects projectiles and a mirror sword thingy.

I'm not so sure Palutena couldn't counter (she has a counter move, not referring to a generic counter) the wheel if it was coming at her slow enough to react to. The paint also has a limit on how much he can use before it has to recharge, so pending on how high she can fly, it's not like it's impossible to avoid.
And I have no clue what you're referring to about Mirror Kirby making clones.

Why would Samus get close? Once she realized she couldn't do anything she'd probably just run away. If she could do that for 3 days is debatable though.

I said once he got close to her with Pegasus boots.

If something is transparent, EM (electromagnetic) waves can pass through it. Lasers are by definition radiation and therefore an EM wave, so anyone with a laser attack can pierce her shield.

Sure.

And how are we deciding health systems? I was taken a little aback when munomario said Sonic had rings. I knew he had them for purposes of going Super Sonic, but I was assuming base Sonic was using HP like he did in Sonic Battle. Are we just going with whatever HP system gives them the best chance

Also, technically if Rosalina equips a power-up at the start of the battle (which takes not even a split second, she could take 3 hits. And if it's the Tanuki suit, it has that invincible statue, although it leaves her a sitting duck and unable to attack (although against some characters she could just unleash black holes and transform into statue mode.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm not so sure Palutena couldn't counter (she has a counter move, not referring to a generic counter) the wheel if it was coming at her slow enough to react to. The paint also has a limit on how much he can use before it has to recharge, so pending on how high she can fly, it's not like it's impossible to avoid.
And I have no clue what you're referring to about Mirror Kirby making clones.
It doesn't move slowly enough to be Countered. But even if it was, it wouldn't matter. Wheel is invincible, except while turning.


And how are we deciding health systems? I was taken a little aback when munomario said Sonic had rings. I knew he had them for purposes of going Super Sonic, but I was assuming base Sonic was using HP like he did in Sonic Battle. Are we just going with whatever HP system gives them the best chance
We're going with the best health systems that people have, I guess.

Also, technically if Rosalina equips a power-up at the start of the battle (which takes not even a split second, she could take 3 hits. And if it's the Tanuki suit, it has that invincible statue, although it leaves her a sitting duck and unable to attack (although against some characters she could just unleash black holes and transform into statue mode.
Mega Laser would blast away all of the lives, it can be used up to five times. It would take effect before Rosie could transform into a statue.

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, I disagree with myself now
STRANGE ISN'T IT?!?!?
There isn't much in-depth discussion to be done in this case because Palutena has really one big trump card, the mega laser. The Mega Laser is an instant multi-hitting, piercing, massive laser that pretty much hands Palutena the win. As such I will explain the counterpoints that may come up on the subject.

's counter: Shield!
Doesn't Rosalina have an indestructible shield or something like that? Can't she just throw that up and be safe?
The Reality: Rosalina's shield is completely transparent, meaning that EM waves can pass through object to whatever is on the other side with little to no diffusion. Lasers are by definition radiation and therefore a type of EM wave (probably something higher on the spectrum)

's counter: Lumas!
The Lumas will sacrifice their own lives to protect their mother, they could block the attack for her so she doesn't get hit.
The Reality: The Mega Laser hits all opponents in its range, constantly and without delays. It would hit all the Lumas and Rosalina, so her children will not help her here.

's counter: 'Tis only a flesh wound!
Well, the Mega Laser does a respectable amount of damage if all hits connect, but the odds of that happening are close to none. So Rosalina could easily survive the blast right?
The Reality: In Rosalina's only canon appearance, she could take 2 hits before dying (in her base form). The Mega Laser activates instantly and registers two hits in less than a second. Rosalina would probably be dead before she realized it

's counter: But that's not fair!
In the same game Rosalina could only take two hits, she also had invincibility frames when hit. So if she did get hit, she could use the invincible time to attack and recuperate.
The Reality: Invincibility frames are a gameplay mechanic so that games are actually possible. I mean imagine for a second, if games had no invincibility frames. A lot harder right?

's counter: Well why would she use it anyway?
Sure, with prior knowledge on Rosalina Mega Laser is the obvious choice, but why would Palutena who's never met Rosalina know the perfect attack to use?
The Reality: Despite Mega Laser being Palutena's best option when the match starts regardless of Rosalina's glaring weakness (the instant firing of the attack plus long range equals free damage) Palutena has seemingly infinite knowledge, knowing information on an unknown alien species seconds after seeing it.

I feel that covers all the possible counterpoints, if you feel I missed something, please point it out. thx
Winner: Palutena

Wait, what about the Reflect Power from Uprising? Can't that stop the Mega Laser? By the way, what's its maximum range? We need more details before we can really draw a conclusion here.

And how are we deciding health systems? I was taken a little aback when munomario said Sonic had rings. I knew he had them for purposes of going Super Sonic, but I was assuming base Sonic was using HP like he did in Sonic Battle. Are we just going with whatever HP system gives them the best chance

Pretty much whichever one is most consistent throughout the games. Sonic usually has Rings, Mario usually uses power-ups as hit points, etc.

Also, technically if Rosalina equips a power-up at the start of the battle (which takes not even a split second, she could take 3 hits. And if it's the Tanuki suit, it has that invincible statue, although it leaves her a sitting duck and unable to attack (although against some characters she could just unleash black holes and transform into statue mode.

Hm, very true. Also, depending on how far away Rosalina is when they start the match, she could not even be in the Mega Laser's range to begin with. By the way, as I pointed out earlier, Mario (and by extension Rosalina) can use Star Bits while doing anything, including attacking, jumping, shielding, and even while in hit stun, so she could still initiate Lumas' transformation into black holes and such while in the statue form.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@ Kirby Dragons
It doesn't move slowly enough to be Countered. But even if it was, it wouldn't matter. Wheel is invincible, except while turning.
Does Wheel start off at full speed in Kirby Air Ride? I know different speeds have varying accelerations. Unlike Sonic, most things can't go from 0 to full speed with no acceleration.
And I can think of two very realistic counters to Wheel Kirby + paintbrush

• A) You can only use the paint brush for 4 consecutive seconds (in air) before it runs out. After that Kirby would only be able to use it in short spurts and unable to follow Palutena (or any one who can get and stay off of ground).
• B) As you said, he's vulnerable when he turns, so all Palutena needs to do is hit a sharp turn when Kirby gets in range of Heavenly Blast and then unleash. Theoretically she can do this with any attack but Heavenly Blast would be easiest to hit with.

Also, technically if Rosalina equips a power-up at the start of the battle (which takes not even a split second, she could take 3 hits. And if it's the Tanuki suit, it has that invincible statue, although it leaves her a sitting duck and unable to attack (although against some characters she could just unleash black holes and transform into statue mode.
Mega Laser would blast away all of the lives, it can be used up to five times. It would take effect before Rosie could transform into a statue.

Is the start up that fast on Mega Laser? Because like I said the transformation to statue is quick. Not that it really matters since Rosalina can't stay in statue forever.

Pretty much whichever one is most consistent throughout the games. Sonic usually has Rings, Mario usually uses power-ups as hit points, etc.

But Mario has the 6 or 8 point hit bar in the 3D games, I think it would be better to give him that. Unlike the RPG games, Mario's 3 adventures are as relevant and canon as the side scrollers, so I think he should be able to go with the more optimal health system.
Which reminds me, doesn't this mean Kirby can only get hit 6 times and than he's dead? Easier said than done with his crap ton of high invincibility options but still...

Hm, very true. Also, depending on how far away Rosalina is when they start the match, she could not even be in the Mega Laser's range to begin with. By the way, as I pointed out earlier, Mario (and by extension Rosalina) can use Star Bits while doing anything, including attacking, jumping, shielding, and even while in hit stun, so she could still initiate Lumas' transformation into black holes and such while in the statue form.

I'll try to play test it this week. And no, I missed the post about star bits so that's interesting.
FYI I just play tested Rosalina in Super Mario 3D World and discovered a few things:

• It's the Lucky Bell, not to Tanooki Suit in this game that gives you the invincible statue.
• It lasts 12 seconds max but can be reused immediately, presuming whoever's she's fighting doesn't anticipate her coming out of it. So for anyone who's smart enough to just stay really close she'd need to bail out early since it starts shaking in the lasts 2 seconds to indicate the statue is about to go poof.

 

[Munomario777]

But Mario has the 6 or 8 point hit bar in the 3D games, I think it would be better to give him that. Unlike the RPG games, Mario's 3 adventures are as relevant and canon as the side scrollers, so I think he should be able to go with the more optimal health system.
Which reminds me, doesn't this mean Kirby can only get hit 6 times and than he's dead? Easier said than done with his crap ton of high invincibility options but still...

Yes, but most games have the power-ups as hit points. It's not about being as canon as the other games (I see the RPG games as canon anyways); it's about which health system is most commonly used. The power-up hit point system has been used in the majority of Mario's games, as well as both his first and most recent games. Thus, when we must choose between the two, we should pick the health system that relies on power-ups (which would actually be more advantageous if you think about it; Mario has tons of different power-ups, and they all act as a health upgrade, making him actually quite durable). As for Kirby, I'm not an expert on the series, but if that's how it is in most games, then I'd say that's the best way to do it.

I'll try to play test it this week. And no, I missed the post about star bits so that's interesting.
FYI I just play tested Rosalina in Super Mario 3D World and discovered a few things:

• It's the Lucky Bell, not to Tanooki Suit in this game that gives you the invincible statue.
• It lasts 12 seconds max but can be reused immediately, presuming whoever's she's fighting doesn't anticipate her coming out of it. So for anyone who's smart enough to just stay really close she'd need to bail out early since it starts shaking in the lasts 2 seconds to indicate the statue is about to go poof.

Very true. Not to mention the Super Star , which grants even more invincibility and enhanced movement, and can be stacked with any other power-up for both offensive and defensive options. There's also the Mega Mushroom, the Double Cherry, and such.

 

[Crystanium]

The way I see it, hit points are a game mechanic, but what can be extracted from these is one's vigor. In The Legend of Zelda, heart containers are hit points, but they're represented as "life force", which is the term they use both in-game and in manuals. The great fairies tell Link that if he's weary, that he should come to them so they can restore his vigor, pretty much. Milk is refreshing if you're exhausted, and eating soup can warm the soul, so-to-speak. In fact, what's pretty cool in Twilight Princess is that the hot spring also restores Link's heart containers. This can be seen as heat therapy. And, there's nothing like relaxing in a hot spring.

In Skyward Sword, Link's health will also restore if he sleeps or if he sits in a chair. Again, this indicates Link resting and easing his fatigue. I wrote a lot about this before. If I can find it, I'll post up my evidence. For now, this should suffice. I see this being the same for Mario and a lot of other characters who lack something akin to an energy shield. For Sonic, my understanding of his rings count as an energy shield, which sadly requires only one hit before it's cancelled out. In his super form, this lasts longer and takes more than one hit, which I'd assume is due to the chaos emeralds being used in conjunction.

Similarly, this is the case for Samus, although her information is more fleshed out. The Metroid Prime Web site spoke of Samus' energy as defense screens that require more energy to sustain, should she receive damage. This is also seen in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, where her energy tank is restored so she could activate hyper-mode. Finally, we see Samus' energy tanks being restored in the cut-scene in Metroid: Other M, and the save stations say, "shield restoration activated", so energy tanks are not simply a game mechanic.

Mario's starman is vulnerable to extreme heat, such as lava. This occurs even in the recent Mario games like the one for the Wii. I'm sure the same occurs in the one for the Wii U as well. I think being crushed also voids the starman's ability, but then again, often times, anything that's crushed, dies.

 

[Munomario777]

The way I see it, hit points are a game mechanic, but what can be extracted from these is one's vigor. In The Legend of Zelda, heart containers are hit points, but they're represented as "life force", which is the term they use both in-game and in manuals. The great fairies tell Link that if he's weary, that he should come to them so they can restore his vigor, pretty much. Milk is refreshing if you're exhausted, and eating soup can warm the soul, so-to-speak. In fact, what's pretty cool in Twilight Princess is that the hot spring also restores Link's heart containers. This can be seen as heat therapy. And, there's nothing like relaxing in a hot spring.

In Skyward Sword, Link's health will also restore if he sleeps or if he sits in a chair. Again, this indicates Link resting and easing his fatigue. I wrote a lot about this before. If I can find it, I'll post up my evidence. For now, this should suffice.

It is certainly a game mechanic, but I think it's one that should be carried over for discussion here. It's out best indication of how much of a beating a given character can take, and it's the easiest to "port over", so to speak.

I see this being the same for Mario and a lot of other characters who lack something akin to an energy shield. For Sonic, my understanding of his rings count as an energy shield, which sadly requires only one hit before it's cancelled out. In his super form, this lasts longer and takes more than one hit, which I'd assume is due to the chaos emeralds being used in conjunction.

Sonic's Rings do act as an extra hit, but in some games he only loses half of his current count. That said, he usually uses the full amount, so we'll use that here. Sonic can pick up his Rings after he loses them as well, since they just fly out of him ready to be collected again. He also has Shield power-ups that provide an additional hitpoint, but that he can't get back. As for Super Sonic, he can only be damaged by attacks from the most powerful beings in the Sonic series (such as Perfect Dark Gaia, Solaris, and the Egg Salamander), and even those only take away a few Rings a hit, which isn't really that much of a problem seeing as how Sonic has a maximum of 999,999.

Similarly, this is the case for Samus, although her information is more fleshed out. The Metroid Prime Web site spoke of Samus' energy as defense screens that require more energy to sustain, should she receive damage. This is also seen in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, where her energy tank is restored so she could activate hyper-mode. Finally, we see Samus' energy tanks being restored in the cut-scene in Metroid: Other M, and the save stations say, "shield restoration activated", so energy tanks are not simply a game mechanic.

Hmm, interesting. Even if it wasn't tied to the lore, I don't think something being "simply a game mechanic" alone makes it void in this discussion.

Mario's starman is vulnerable to extreme heat, such as lava. This occurs even in the recent Mario games like the one for the Wii. I'm sure the same occurs in the one for the Wii U as well. I think being crushed also voids the starman's ability, but then again, often times, anything that's crushed, dies.

Yeah, while the Starman is immune to most attacks (including fire), lava, crushing, bottomless pits, and such still prove fatal. This isn't the case for all characters, of course; Samus's Gravity Suit, Sonic's Fire Shield/Super Sonic, and the like come to mind.

 

[Crystanium]

It is certainly a game mechanic, but I think it's one that should be carried over for discussion here. It's out best indication of how much of a beating a given character can take, and it's the easiest to "port over", so to speak.

Sonic's Rings do act as an extra hit, but in some games he only loses half of his current count. That said, he usually uses the full amount, so we'll use that here. Sonic can pick up his Rings after he loses them as well, since they just fly out of him ready to be collected again. He also has Shield power-ups that provide an additional hitpoint, but that he can't get back. As for Super Sonic, he can only be damaged by attacks from the most powerful beings in the Sonic series (such as Perfect Dark Gaia, Solaris, and the Egg Salamander), and even those only take away a few Rings a hit, which isn't really that much of a problem seeing as how Sonic has a maximum of 999,999.

Hmm, interesting. Even if it wasn't tied to the lore, I don't think something being "simply a game mechanic" alone makes it void in this discussion.

Yeah, while the Starman is immune to most attacks (including fire), lava, crushing, bottomless pits, and such still prove fatal. This isn't the case for all characters, of course; Samus's Gravity Suit, Sonic's Fire Shield/Super Sonic, and the like come to mind.

What I'm carrying over is what can be extracted. The problem with using hit points if we carry over the game mechanics is the problem of determining what 1 HP in one universe means in another. Shulk vs. Ness, for example. 1 HP in Xenoblade could be 100 HP in Mother. We can include Pokemon in this as well.

What I understand hit points as is vigor. It could be equated with defense, as in the case of Sonic, Samus, and Ganondorf. In the Zelda series, ending blow can be used to kill opponents, even if their health is nowhere near diminished. Samus can use lethal strike on enemies like Ghalmanians or Griptians, even if their health isn't close to diminished.

So what I'm saying is that we can strip the game mechanics and keep the essence. Even Samus outside of her armor could be harmed by normal means, as with bullets if she didn't have energy tanks. It appears she has them with the Zero Suit in Metroid: Zero Mission.

The way I understand Super Sonic is that his rings aren't exactly real. I interpret it as wearing a ring or rings on his wrists and by wearing them, he has a form-fitting shield. You said not al of his rings are lost in at least another Sonic game. So that would work and explain why crashing or stopping all of a sudden shows no ill-effects on him.

 

[Munomario777]

What I'm carrying over is what can be extracted. The problem with using hit points if we carry over the game mechanics is the problem of determining what 1 HP in one universe means in another. Shulk vs. Ness, for example. 1 HP in Xenoblade could be 100 HP in Mother. We can include Pokemon in this as well.

It's simple: we find a common damage type and approximate based on that. For example, if an electric attack deals 10 damage in Pokemon and a similar attack deals 46 damage in Xenoblade, we can equate that 10 PokeHP = 46 XenoHP.

What I understand hit points as is vigor. It could be equated with defense, as in the case of Sonic, Samus, and Ganondorf. In the Zelda series, ending blow can be used to kill opponents, even if their health is nowhere near diminished. Samus can use lethal strike on enemies like Ghalmanians or Griptians, even if their health isn't close to diminished.

So what I'm saying is that we can strip the game mechanics and keep the essence. Even Samus outside of her armor could be harmed by normal means, as with bullets if she didn't have energy tanks. It appears she has them with the Zero Suit in Metroid: Zero Mission.

I do agree that some certain game mechanics should be omitted from this discussion (such as invincibility frames, extra lives, and such), but I don't think we should strip down all of them. Items, power-ups, and even basic things like attacking and jumping are gameplay mechanics, after all. I think health systems should be kept because they're a part of the character, they add a unique element to each fighter, and there's no real reason to exclude them (at least in most cases).

The way I understand Super Sonic is that his rings aren't exactly real. I interpret it as wearing a ring or rings on his wrists and by wearing them, he has a form-fitting shield. You said not al of his rings are lost in at least another Sonic game. So that would work and explain why crashing or stopping all of a sudden shows no ill-effects on him.

While that is an interesting theory, but until we have Sega confirming that, we should take it at face value (i.e. Sonic absorbs the Rings and their power grants him protection). Also, I have a few flaws with your theory. First, Sonic can hold hundreds of Rings, and I don't think he could wear all those at once, seeing as how he has only ten fingers and two wrists. Second, we don't actually see the Rings on Sonic's wrists or the form fitting shield in-game or in cutscenes. Third, Sonic can crash into a wall without Rings without taking damage.

 

[Nerdicon]

Wait, what about the Reflect Power from Uprising? Can't that stop the Mega Laser? By the way, what's its maximum range? We need more details before we can really draw a conclusion here.

I looked around a little bit and the answer seems to be no. Not that this would have any relevance given that Rosalina doesn't have anything similar. Though anyone else with a similar reflection ability might have trouble.

Hm, very true. Also, depending on how far away Rosalina is when they start the match, she could not even be in the Mega Laser's range to begin with. By the way, as I pointed out earlier, Mario (and by extension Rosalina) can use Star Bits while doing anything, including attacking, jumping, shielding, and even while in hit stun, so she could still initiate Lumas' transformation into black holes and such while in the statue form.

I tested the range of the laser in-game but ran into a few problems. The laser was actually too large for me to find the range, but I can guarantee that it shoots quite a bit farther than 150 meters. Also keep in mind that this happens instantly, no delay from minimum range to max range so Rosalina doesn't have the time to do anything. Also upon further testing, the mega laser hits almost 6 times per second, each hit spread evenly. So in 1/3 of a second Rosalina's done for.

@ Kirby Dragons
It doesn't move slowly enough to be Countered. But even if it was, it wouldn't matter. Wheel is invincible, except while turning.
Does Wheel start off at full speed in Kirby Air Ride? I know different speeds have varying accelerations. Unlike Sonic, most things can't go from 0 to full speed with no acceleration.
And I can think of two very realistic counters to Wheel Kirby + paintbrush

• A) You can only use the paint brush for 4 consecutive seconds (in air) before it runs out. After that Kirby would only be able to use it in short spurts and unable to follow Palutena (or any one who can get and stay off of ground).
• B) As you said, he's vulnerable when he turns, so all Palutena needs to do is hit a sharp turn when Kirby gets in range of Heavenly Blast and then unleash. Theoretically she can do this with any attack but Heavenly Blast would be easiest to hit with.

Well, the wheel never hits zero speed in Kirby Air Ride. It was also invulnerable in Kirby Air Ride even when not at full speed (but that's probably just the different gameplay mechanics) . If the wheel has max glide, Kirby will get some major air when going off a slope, so he could use a series of ramps and small walls to jump and bounce around the air, he doesn't really need to constantly use the paintbrush.

Also, technically if Rosalina equips a power-up at the start of the battle (which takes not even a split second, she could take 3 hits. And if it's the Tanuki suit, it has that invincible statue, although it leaves her a sitting duck and unable to attack (although against some characters she could just unleash black holes and transform into statue mode.
Mega Laser would blast away all of the lives, it can be used up to five times. It would take effect before Rosie could transform into a statue.

Is the start up that fast on Mega Laser? Because like I said the transformation to statue is quick. Not that it really matters since Rosalina can't stay in statue forever.

Rosalina has to drop the item on the ground, then walk over and pick it up. That would probably take 1-2 seconds, Rosalina would be dead 6 times over

But Mario has the 6 or 8 point hit bar in the 3D games, I think it would be better to give him that. Unlike the RPG games, Mario's 3 adventures are as relevant and canon as the side scrollers, so I think he should be able to go with the more optimal health system.
Which reminds me, doesn't this mean Kirby can only get hit 6 times and than he's dead? Easier said than done with his crap ton of high invincibility options but still...

Just out of interest I'll do a quick tally.
6 hits: 5 games (Kirby's Dreamland, Kirby's Adventure, Kirby's Dreamland 2, Kirby 64, Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland)
10 hits: 2 games (Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, Dreamland 3)
2 hits: Kirby Mass Attack
7 hits: Kirby Canvas Curse
Invincible: Kirby Air Ride (because the vehicles are the ones with health bars)
Health Bar: 5 games (Kirby Super Star, Kirby Super Star Ultra, Kirby Squeak Squad, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Kirby Triple Deluxe)
There's a tie here, so I always say go with whatever makes the character stronger (yes I think Mario should take more than two hits)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Items, power-ups, and even basic things like attacking and jumping are gameplay mechanics, after all.

No they're not.

Just out of interest I'll do a quick tally.
6 hits: 5 games (Kirby's Dreamland, Kirby's Adventure, Kirby's Dreamland 2, Kirby 64, Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland)
10 hits: 2 games (Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, Dreamland 3)
2 hits: Kirby Mass Attack
7 hits: Kirby Canvas Curse
Invincible: Kirby Air Ride (because the vehicles are the ones with health bars)
Health Bar: 5 games (Kirby Super Star, Kirby Super Star Ultra, Kirby Squeak Squad, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Kirby Triple Deluxe)
There's a tie here, so I always say go with whatever makes the character stronger (yes I think Mario should take more than two hits)

But yeah, if we're going to use health systems, we should use the best for the character. Otherwise, could beat Mario. They both attack once with their hammer.

 

[Munomario777]

I looked around a little bit and the answer seems to be no. Not that this would have any relevance given that Rosalina doesn't have anything similar. Though anyone else with a similar reflection ability might have trouble.


I tested the range of the laser in-game but ran into a few problems. The laser was actually too large for me to find the range, but I can guarantee that it shoots quite a bit farther than 150 meters. Also keep in mind that this happens instantly, no delay from minimum range to max range so Rosalina doesn't have the time to do anything. Also upon further testing, the mega laser hits almost 6 times per second, each hit spread evenly. So in 1/3 of a second Rosalina's done for.

Hm. You've got me trumped here. While Rosalina doesn't have a way to block the Mega Laser, she could dodge it with her rather quick movement or the Launch Stars (I don't believe the Mega Laser can be aimed while it's firing). Either way, I don't think Palutena would be one to use the Mega Laser right away:

Palutena is also noticeably more merciful compared to the other gods, as she would try to peacefully reason with her enemies first than use outright violence.

Since we're using characters' personalities here (which was established a while back), Palutena's hesitation to resort to all-out violence gives Rosalina (who will stomp on a Goomba at first sight) some time to prepare her attacks and defenses.

Well, the wheel never hits zero speed in Kirby Air Ride. It was also invulnerable in Kirby Air Ride even when not at full speed (but that's probably just the different gameplay mechanics) . If the wheel has max glide, Kirby will get some major air when going off a slope, so he could use a series of ramps and small walls to jump and bounce around the air, he doesn't really need to constantly use the paintbrush.

Actually, I did some research, and it appears that the Wheel Copy Ability in Kirby Air Ride only deals damage while charging (during which Kirby cannot move). And no, he can't just hop on his Warp Star and charge, since this turns Kirby and his current Air Ride into the Wheel. (Wheel Kirby from the main games couldn't ride the Warp Star either, since Wheel Kirby is vulnerable when he's not rolling at high speeds.) Thus, we're left with two options: the traditional Wheel, which deals damage while moving but can't glide, or the Air Ride Wheel, which doesn't deal damage while moving but can glide. Your choice.

Rosalina has to drop the item on the ground, then walk over and pick it up. That would probably take 1-2 seconds, Rosalina would be dead 6 times over

Seeing as how it appears to be stored inside of Rosalina (it pops out of her), it doesn't seem like she would have to drop it first. Plus, in games such as New Super Mario Bros. U, stored power-ups are applied immediately.

Just out of interest I'll do a quick tally.
6 hits: 5 games (Kirby's Dreamland, Kirby's Adventure, Kirby's Dreamland 2, Kirby 64, Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland)
10 hits: 2 games (Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, Dreamland 3)
2 hits: Kirby Mass Attack
7 hits: Kirby Canvas Curse
Invincible: Kirby Air Ride (because the vehicles are the ones with health bars)
Health Bar: 5 games (Kirby Super Star, Kirby Super Star Ultra, Kirby Squeak Squad, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Kirby Triple Deluxe)
There's a tie here, so I always say go with whatever makes the character stronger (yes I think Mario should take more than two hits)

Fair enough. What I don't think you're seeing, though, is that in a lot of ways, the power-ups as health system is actually beneficial for Mario. Each power-up serves as a health refill, and Mario has tons of them. This doesn't happen in games with a health bar (the Galaxy games are good examples of this), so Mario is much more durable with the power-up system than without.

No they're not.

Yes, they are:

Game mechanics are constructs of rules or methods designed for interaction with the game state, thus providing gameplay.

Jumping, for example. It's a *method* to *interact* with the *game state* (you press A, and Mario jumps). The majority of our knowledge on these characters is based on game mechanics; thus, they cannot be ignored.

But yeah, if we're going to use health systems, we should use the best for the character. Otherwise, could beat Mario. They both attack once with their hammer.

...Unless he used a power-up first.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Nerdicon]

Hm. You've got me trumped here. While Rosalina doesn't have a way to block the Mega Laser, she could dodge it with her rather quick movement or the Launch Stars (I don't believe the Mega Laser can be aimed while it's firing). Either way, I don't think Palutena would be one to use the Mega Laser right away:

Since we're using characters' personalities here (which was established a while back), Palutena's hesitation to resort to all-out violence gives Rosalina (who will stomp on a Goomba at first sight) some time to prepare her attacks and defenses.

Well so is Rosalina, the only reason she resorts to violence so quickly is that she knows Bowser and his Koopa Troop can't be reasoned with. It's the same reason Palutena has no problem with letting Pit mercilessly slaughter Underworld mooks. I feel in this situation the characters know that they have no choice but to fight. It'd be rather anti-climatic to have to fighters settle their differences over a spot of tea.

Actually, I did some research, and it appears that the Wheel Copy Ability in Kirby Air Ride only deals damage while charging (during which Kirby cannot move). And no, he can't just hop on his Warp Star and charge, since this turns Kirby and his current Air Ride into the Wheel. (Wheel Kirby from the main games couldn't ride the Warp Star either, since Wheel Kirby is vulnerable when he's not rolling at high speeds.) Thus, we're left with two options: the traditional Wheel, which deals damage while moving but can't glide, or the Air Ride Wheel, which doesn't deal damage while moving but can glide. Your choice.

When I say max glide, I mean that it jumps incredibly high. Any vehicle with high glide patches but no wings jumps incredibly high. Either way we're combining the best of several worlds into these characters, so there's less of a choose one and more of a "let's combine elements from this game and this game"

Seeing as how it appears to be stored inside of Rosalina (it pops out of her), it doesn't seem like she would have to drop it first. Plus, in games such as New Super Mario Bros. U, stored power-ups are applied immediately.

In the only game where Rosalina could store power-ups she had to drop it first and then pick it up (Super Mario 3D World) so yeah, she doesn't have any time

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Hm. You've got me trumped here. While Rosalina doesn't have a way to block the Mega Laser, she could dodge it with her rather quick movement or the Launch Stars (I don't believe the Mega Laser can be aimed while it's firing).

Though in order to use a Launch Star, Rosie would have to feed a Luma, transform it, and then jump into it. Mega Laser happens instantly.





Yes, they are:

Jumping, for example. It's a *method* to *interact* with the *game state* (you press A, and Mario jumps). The majority of our knowledge on these characters is based on game mechanics; thus, they cannot be ignored.

That definition is Wikipedia. Therefore, it's wrong. Plus, you don't interact with the game state, you interact with the player, Mario. And jumping doesn't provide gameplay, it is the gameplay. Not to mention, jumping, attacking, and items are things found in all forms of fiction, even real life. Doesn't sound like game mechanics to me.

And also: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics
Abilities given by game rules. Jumping isn't given by a rule.

 

[Munomario777]

Well so is Rosalina, the only reason she resorts to violence so quickly is that she knows Bowser and his Koopa Troop can't be reasoned with. It's the same reason Palutena has no problem with letting Pit mercilessly slaughter Underworld mooks. I feel in this situation the characters know that they have no choice but to fight. It'd be rather anti-climatic to have to fighters settle their differences over a spot of tea.

In Rosalina's sole playable appearance aside from Mario Kart and such, she has no hesitation in defeating Bowser (who, unlike Underworld minions, is capable of advanced conversation and such, as shown by the Galaxy games). Bowser kidnapped one princess, and Rosalina had no hesitation. Medusa (or whoever the main antagonist is in KI:U; haven't played that game) threatens to kill the entire human race, and Palutena resorts to reasoning before combat. When the two are compared like this, it's easy to see who would attack first.

When I say max glide, I mean that it jumps incredibly high. Any vehicle with high glide patches but no wings jumps incredibly high. Either way we're combining the best of several worlds into these characters, so there's less of a choose one and more of a "let's combine elements from this game and this game"

That's an odd name for a jumping stat. Yes, we're combining the best of several worlds. This is a case where we have to choose which version of Wheel is the best of those worlds. Canonically, there is no version of Wheel which can glide like that and damage opponents while moving.

In the only game where Rosalina could store power-ups she had to drop it first and then pick it up (Super Mario 3D World) so yeah, she doesn't have any time

Yes, but it's stored inside of her body. This is one of those game mechanics I feel we should omit, since it's mainly geared towards the four-player mechanic (if the power-up was applied instantly, you couldn't share them), it doesn't make much sense, and there are other games that use a different system (and said system makes much more sense anyways). Either way, though, if a power-up is applied while moving, it is essentially applied instantly, since Rosalina is running forward into the power-up the moment it appears.

Though in order to use a Launch Star, Rosie would have to feed a Luma, transform it, and then jump into it. Mega Laser happens instantly.

Actually, Lumas that transform into Launch Stars transform very quickly without any Star Bits, and the Launch Stars' lag at the beginning could be negated by using the quicker Sling Star.

That definition is Wikipedia. Therefore, it's wrong. Plus, you don't interact with the game state, you interact with the player, Mario. And jumping doesn't provide gameplay, it is the gameplay.

How is Wikipedia inherently wrong? While it's not the most reliable source of information, it can still be used if there's no contradictions. Mario is part of the game state; he's part of the game, and he's in the state of standing before you hit the jump button (or running, or whatever state he's in). Jumping does provide gameplay; without jumping, you couldn't get past World 1-1 (or even the first Goomba). Jumping allows you to access, or provides access to, World 1-2 and the subsequent levels.

And also: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics

* says Wikipedia is inherently wrong *
* uses Wikia article as source *
Seriously though, I think Wikipedia has more merit to it than a Wikia, and we don't have to conform to what that site considers canon and non-canon anyway.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

How is Wikipedia inherently wrong? While it's not the most reliable source of information, it can still be used if there's no contradictions. Mario is part of the game state; he's part of the game, and he's in the state of standing before you hit the jump button (or running, or whatever state he's in). Jumping does provide gameplay; without jumping, you couldn't get past World 1-1 (or even the first Goomba). Jumping allows you to access, or provides access to, World 1-2 and the subsequent levels.

* says Wikipedia is inherently wrong *
* uses Wikia article as source *
Seriously though, I think Wikipedia has more merit to it than a Wikia, and we don't have to conform to what that site considers canon and non-canon anyway.

That definition is still better.

And Mario is a part of the game state, but he's not the game state. I'm a part of this universe, but I'm not the universe.

Jumping, attacking, and items are things found in all forms of fiction, and even real life. They don't sound like game mechanics to me.

Again, jumping doesn't provide gameplay because it is the gameplay. That's why it makes progress, because playing the game makes progress.

 

[Munomario777]

That definition is still better.

How so?

And Mario is a part of the game state, but he's not the game state. I'm a part of this universe, but I'm not the universe.

Interacting with Mario is interacting with the game state. If you touch a wall of a house, you're still touching the house.

Jumping, attacking, and items are things found in all forms of fiction, and even real life. They don't sound like game mechanics to me.

How are things commonly found in fiction not gameplay mechanics?

Again, jumping doesn't provide gameplay because it is the gameplay. That's why it makes progress, because playing the game makes progress.

The game mechanic of Mario jumping provides the gameplay of him falling, the sound effect, stomping Goombas, etc.

 

[Nerdicon]

In Rosalina's sole playable appearance aside from Mario Kart and such, she has no hesitation in defeating Bowser (who, unlike Underworld minions, is capable of advanced conversation and such, as shown by the Galaxy games). Bowser kidnapped one princess, and Rosalina had no hesitation. Medusa (or whoever the main antagonist is in KI:U; haven't played that game) threatens to kill the entire human race, and Palutena resorts to reasoning before combat. When the two are compared like this, it's easy to see who would attack first.

Both would hesitate to fight, but the second Rosalina attacks Palutena could Transparency + Warp + Mega Laser to defeat her quickly.

That's an odd name for a jumping stat. Yes, we're combining the best of several worlds. This is a case where we have to choose which version of Wheel is the best of those worlds. Canonically, there is no version of Wheel which can glide like that and damage opponents while moving.

Did you read my post? For a vehicle with no wings, glide patches cause the vehicle to jump higher. There is no reason that Wheel can't have a high jump and do lots of damage. Sonic has never been able to have 999,999 rings in an action stage and therefore has never had the ability to stay as Super Sonic for a long period of time.

Yes, but it's stored inside of her body. This is one of those game mechanics I feel we should omit, since it's mainly geared towards the four-player mechanic (if the power-up was applied instantly, you couldn't share them), it doesn't make much sense, and there are other games that use a different system (and said system makes much more sense anyways). Either way, though, if a power-up is applied while moving, it is essentially applied instantly, since Rosalina is running forward into the power-up the moment it appears.

Well that's how it works in SM3DW so I feel that's what we should roll with.

Actually, Lumas that transform into Launch Stars transform very quickly without any Star Bits, and the Launch Stars' lag at the beginning could be negated by using the quicker Sling Star.

They actually still do their second long twist thing before transforming, so the Lumas won't be too helpful.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

How so?

It's done by people that play quite a lot of video games, and that debate with VG characters a lot.

How are things commonly found in fiction not gameplay mechanics?

Because they can be found in things that aren't video games. Notice how things that are actually game mechanics (health bars, power points, etc.) are only found in games. And in VG cutscenes, you never see any gameplay mechanics. You can see jumping, attacking, or items. Like when Luigi jumps on Mario's head in Melee. Yet in SSE, when Ness hits Porky with PK Thunder, it doesn't raise his damage meter any. Because he doesn't have one. Damage meters and the like can be found in gameplay only. Not cutscenes, or movies, or anime, etc.

 

[Munomario777]

Both would hesitate to fight, but the second Rosalina attacks Palutena could Transparency + Warp + Mega Laser to defeat her quickly.

Not really. As I said before, Rosalina has zero hesitation to kick Bowser's rear end in 3D World.

Did you read my post? For a vehicle with no wings, glide patches cause the vehicle to jump higher. There is no reason that Wheel can't have a high jump and do lots of damage. Sonic has never been able to have 999,999 rings in an action stage and therefore has never had the ability to stay as Super Sonic for a long period of time.

Yes, I read your post. The Patches are applied to vehicles, which turn into the Wheel form in Air Ride along with Kirby himself. In the core Kirby games, Kirby alone turns into the Wheel form, and he is not a vehicle. Thus, there's no reason to believe that Patches could be used on non-vehicular Copy Abilities (AKA Kirby himself).

Well that's how it works in SM3DW so I feel that's what we should roll with.

Meh. I think we should go with the form shown in NSMBU and such, but it doesn't matter too much anyways for reasons stated earlier, as well as the one stated below.

They actually still do their second long twist thing before transforming, so the Lumas won't be too helpful.

True. However, Lumas appear to be rather fast (they go the distance required to transform into a galaxy in seconds), so Rosalina could get some to boost her forward.

It's done by people that play quite a lot of video games, and that debate with VG characters a lot.

What makes that definition automatically better? Always judge by the content itself, not its creator(s).

Because they can be found in things that aren't video games. Notice how things that are actually game mechanics (health bars, power points, etc.) are only found in games. And in VG cutscenes, you never see any gameplay mechanics. You can see jumping, attacking, or items. Like when Luigi jumps on Mario's head in Melee. Yet in SSE, when Lucas hits Porky with PK Thunder, it doesn't raise his damage meter any. Because he doesn't have one. Damage meters and the like can be found in gameplay only. Not cutscenes, or movies, or anime, etc.

Rings (as in Sonic) are a "gameplay mechanic", correct? If so, then why does Sonic knock a Ring out of Knuckles in a cutscene in Sonic Boom for the Wii U? Why are Rings present in other Sonic media, such as the comics and multiple TV series? Why are Rings referenced in-game by characters? Why are Rings not exclusive to gameplay? Also, gameplay vs. cutscenes is a line that's getting blurred more and more with several games not even having cutscenes, instead leaving story exposition to dialogue and such within gameplay (such as Portal 2).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

What makes that definition automatically better? Always judge by the content itself, not its creator(s).

It gives more detail, and is actually correct.

Rings (as in Sonic) are a "gameplay mechanic", correct? If so, then why does Sonic knock a Ring out of Knuckles in a cutscene in Sonic Boom for the Wii U? Why are Rings present in other Sonic media, such as the comics and multiple TV series? Why are Rings referenced in-game by characters? Why are Rings not exclusive to gameplay? Also, gameplay vs. cutscenes is a line that's getting blurred more and more with several games not even having cutscenes, instead leaving story exposition to dialogue and such within gameplay (such as Portal 2).

Um, that link is to your MYM moveset for Wonder Red.

And do they do the same thing in the shows that they do in the games? IIRC, in Sonic X, they were used to boost Sonic's power a bit. And were the rings talked about during gameplay or a cutscene?

 

[Crystanium]

It's simple: we find a common damage type and approximate based on that. For example, if an electric attack deals 10 damage in Pokemon and a similar attack deals 46 damage in Xenoblade, we can equate that 10 PokeHP = 46 XenoHP.

I do agree that some certain game mechanics should be omitted from this discussion (such as invincibility frames, extra lives, and such), but I don't think we should strip down all of them. Items, power-ups, and even basic things like attacking and jumping are gameplay mechanics, after all. I think health systems should be kept because they're a part of the character, they add a unique element to each fighter, and there's no real reason to exclude them (at least in most cases).

While that is an interesting theory, but until we have Sega confirming that, we should take it at face value (i.e. Sonic absorbs the Rings and their power grants him protection). Also, I have a few flaws with your theory. First, Sonic can hold hundreds of Rings, and I don't think he could wear all those at once, seeing as how he has only ten fingers and two wrists. Second, we don't actually see the Rings on Sonic's wrists or the form fitting shield in-game or in cutscenes. Third, Sonic can crash into a wall without Rings without taking damage.

The flaw with that is inconsistency. In one game, an attack from Arcanine might cause 10 damage. In another installment, the same attack might end doing 20 damage, even if it's the same Pokemon at the same level. We know outside of the games, hit points don't exist, but endurance does.

I dismiss hit points for the same reason you dismiss extra lives.

My thing about Sonic is that he wears a golden, ring-shaped bracelet on each wrist. The rings in-game are really an energy source. That would make sense to me, especially with that one ring inhibitor Shadow had. So sure, Sonic isn't actually wearing ring-shaped bracelets, but that's how I understand it. I know it'snot canon.

 

[AwesomeCauliflower68]

I think you guys are missing another powerful character, DK knocked the moon out of orbit with his fist

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think you guys are missing another powerful character, DK knocked the moon out of orbit with his fist

Yeah, we got him.

 

[Munomario777]

It gives more detail, and is actually correct.

The Wikipedia page is longer, and that's a circular fallacy.

Um, that link is to your MYM moveset for Wonder Red.

Huh, that's odd.

And do they do the same thing in the shows that they do in the games? IIRC, in Sonic X, they were used to boost Sonic's power a bit. And were the rings talked about during gameplay or a cutscene?

Actually, they do. In an episode of AoStH, a Special Stage makes an appearance, and the Rings serve the same purpose as they do in Sonic 2's Special Stages, that being something Sonic must collect in order to advance. In SatAM, they are used to temporarily boost Sonic's speed. In Sonic Unleashed and later games that use the Boost mechanic, they are also used to boost Sonic's speed by giving him Boost Energy. In Sonic the Comic, Rings fuel Sonic's transformations into Super Sonic, and the bigger ones leading to Special Stages from the games also appear here. They were referenced in at least the latter appearance, and I'd imaging they would be in the others as well (although I'm not sure why that would make a difference).

The flaw with that is inconsistency. In one game, an attack from Arcanine might cause 10 damage. In another installment, the same attack might end doing 20 damage, even if it's the same Pokemon at the same level. We know outside of the games, hit points don't exist, but endurance does.

That's more of an inconsistency with the attack than anything; we'd still have the different strengths of that attack if we omitted HP.

I dismiss hit points for the same reason you dismiss extra lives.

The main difference between the two is that HP is an attribute of the character, where extra lives are essentially creating a whole new character/traveling back in time for a redo/etc.

My thing about Sonic is that he wears a golden, ring-shaped bracelet on each wrist. The rings in-game are really an energy source. That would make sense to me, especially with that one ring inhibitor Shadow had. So sure, Sonic isn't actually wearing ring-shaped bracelets, but that's how I understand it. I know it'snot canon.

There's no doubt that the Rings in-game are energy sources; I just think Sonic absorbs them directly. I do find your theory interesting, though.

 

[Crystanium]

That's more of an inconsistency with the attack than anything; we'd still have the different strengths of that attack if we omitted HP.

Without a hitbox, the attack is meaningless. Since different games require different engines, the results will equally be different.

The main difference between the two is that HP is an attribute of the character, where extra lives are essentially creating a whole new character/traveling back in time for a redo/etc.

In Donkey Kong Country Returns, you can purchase extra lives with coins. You can even buy Squawks to help you find puzzle pieces and buy banana juice to be invincible. To say that extra lives aren't an attribute of the character is to say buying balloons is a game mechanic, thereby saying buying Squawks to help you or banana juice to get through especially difficult levels is a game mechanic.

What is more, in Paper Mario, there is a place called Underwhere and Overthere. This is where people who have died end up going. Shaydes may talk about how they got "game over". Then there's Pit in Kid Icarus: Uprising. He brings up how he died so many times before and was resurrected. This essentially makes Pit immortal. Another example I can think of is Borderlands where if you do die, a duplicate of you will be made.

All-in-all, if you're going to dismiss extra lives, you have to dismiss these examples where extra lives exist.

There's no doubt that the Rings in-game are energy sources; I just think Sonic absorbs them directly. I do find your theory interesting, though.

Hm. Well that is a much simpler explanation. I don't know why I tend to over-complicate things.

 

[Munomario777]

Without a hitbox, the attack is meaningless. Since different games require different engines, the results will equally be different.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here; this problem would exist even if we omitted HP entirely.

In Donkey Kong Country Returns, you can purchase extra lives with coins. You can even buy Squawks to help you find puzzle pieces and buy banana juice to be invincible. To say that extra lives aren't an attribute of the character is to say buying balloons is a game mechanic, thereby saying buying Squawks to help you or banana juice to get through especially difficult levels is a game mechanic.

That's mainly because Balloons replace 1-UPs in the DKCR games. Either way, DK has to buy those Balloons in the shop. He has full health whenever you start a stage. Thus, HP is an attribute of Donkey Kong, while Balloons are an extra. I'm fine with omitting shop-exclusive items such as that here, if that's what you'd like to go with. Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to prove that that HP isn't a game mechanic; rather, I'm stating that just because something is a game mechanic doesn't mean that it should be omitted.

What is more, in Paper Mario, there is a place called Underwhere and Overthere. This is where people who have died end up going. Shaydes may talk about how they got "game over". Then there's Pit in Kid Icarus: Uprising. He brings up how he died so many times before and was resurrected. This essentially makes Pit immortal. Another example I can think of is Borderlands where if you do die, a duplicate of you will be made.

In Super Paper Mario, the Underwhere and Overthere are essentially the afterlife of that universe. Notice how those people who have died aren't still adventuring (one of the inhabitants said they got killed by a Bullet Bill, IIRC). Rather, they, as you said, got a "game over". This shows that extra lives aren't actually in play here, since if they were, they would have used them and revived themselves. As for Kid Icarus, Pit "got revived". He didn't revive himself; he got revived by someone else, presumably Palutena. In Borderlands, the clone is just that: a clone. The person you were just playing as isn't revived, but rather copied and pasted to continue the adventure, even if the original hero isn't alive anymore.

All-in-all, if you're going to dismiss extra lives, you have to dismiss these examples where extra lives exist.

M'kay.

Hm. Well that is a much simpler explanation. I don't know why I tend to over-complicate things.

I dunno; overcomplicating things can be pretty fun.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here; this problem would exist even if we omitted HP entirely.

The difference is we don't have hit points. We have kilocalories, but punching me isn't going to reduce my kilocalories. The amount of force one can exert from a punch could also vary, whereas in most video games, a punch is restricted to one type, always resulting in the same amount of damage.

That's mainly because Balloons replace 1-UPs in the DKCR games. Either way, DK has to buy those Balloons in the shop. He has full health whenever you start a stage. Thus, HP is an attribute of Donkey Kong, while Balloons are an extra. I'm fine with omitting shop-exclusive items such as that here, if that's what you'd like to go with. Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to prove that that HP isn't a game mechanic; rather, I'm stating that just because something is a game mechanic doesn't mean that it should be omitted.

Actually, not so. In all Donkey Kong Country games, balloons always granted an extra life. If DK can buy balloons, then that means they actually exist because the coins he collects and the bananas he collects also exist. And that's a good point that hit points are restored on the next level because that is a game mechanic. It would be odd to be severely injured, and then in the next level you're in perfect, tip-top shape.

I'm not saying something should be omitted, either, provided we present it in a context where game mechanics are stripped. This is why I said heart containers are just life force (vigor). The same for Mario and Kirby. A character's health system should not alter throughout different games. The reason this happens is possibly because of a different gaming engine. I mean, come on, do you think swimming in water will suddenly restore your health as it happens in Super Mario 64?

You can even considered bosses who have 1 HP left and then you strike them. They don't end up dying, but instead go, "This isn't even my final form."

In Super Paper Mario, the Underwhere and Overthere are essentially the afterlife of that universe. Notice how those people who have died aren't still adventuring (one of the inhabitants said they got killed by a Bullet Bill, IIRC). Rather, they, as you said, got a "game over". This shows that extra lives aren't actually in play here, since if they were, they would have used them and revived themselves. As for Kid Icarus, Pit "got revived". He didn't revive himself; he got revived by someone else, presumably Palutena. In Borderlands, the clone is just that: a clone. The person you were just playing as isn't revived, but rather copied and pasted to continue the adventure, even if the original hero isn't alive anymore.

I know. They don't have any extra lives. See?

Shadye: "Huh? What'd you say? 'What's The Underwhere?' . . . You're kidding, right? Man, for a guy with no extra lives, you're sure hilarious! Isn't it obvious? This is where people go when their games are OVER! Some call it 'World-1' . . ."

I agree, Pit was resurrected each time. That's his extra life.

A clone means you can keep playing. If every single cell is in the same of a person, is that person really different?

 

[Munomario777]

The difference is we don't have hit points. We have kilocalories, but punching me isn't going to reduce my kilocalories. The amount of force one can exert from a punch could also vary, whereas in most video games, a punch is restricted to one type, always resulting in the same amount of damage.

Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Actually, not so. In all Donkey Kong Country games, balloons always granted an extra life. If DK can buy balloons, then that means they actually exist because the coins he collects and the bananas he collects also exist. And that's a good point that hit points are restored on the next level because that is a game mechanic. It would be odd to be severely injured, and then in the next level you're in perfect, tip-top shape.

Fair enough. Balloons are really just a paint job for extra lives, though, since they function exactly the same, and anything that happened before you died (i.e. you killing an enemy) is reverted upon using a Balloon. It's basically a "do-over button", as if the game "rewinded" back to the last checkpoint. I'm aware that hit points being restored is a game mechanic; everything that happens in a game is technically one. However, I do believe that some game mechanics should be omitted, and that this should be decided on a case-by-case basis. For instance, hit points vs. one-ups. Hit points are the beating a character can take before they die, which is important information in this context, so we keep them. One-ups are another try at a given situation, but appear to take place in either an alternate version of that adventure or as if it was "rewinded". This doesn't make much sense, and it was agreed a while back that extra lives and such aren't being taken into account anyways, so we omit one-ups. Of course, it's different if the character is revived in real time or something of that nature (such as the Fairy Bottles from The Legend of Zelda), since that has a good reason for happening and has no indication of being "rewinded".

I'm not saying something should be omitted, either, provided we present it in a context where game mechanics are stripped. This is why I said heart containers are just life force (vigor). The same for Mario and Kirby. A character's health system should not alter throughout different games. The reason this happens is possibly because of a different gaming engine. I mean, come on, do you think swimming in water will suddenly restore your health as it happens in Super Mario 64?

Again, if game mechanics are stripped, characters cannot do anything they do in gameplay. I don't see any real reason to omit all gameplay mechanics rather than judging each one individually. As for character health varying, inconsistencies between games are nothing unique to HP. Mario's jumping height, jumping techniques, running speed, ability to pick things up (or lack thereof), damage dealt by attacks, and many more variables change between games. Thus, we must pick the most consistent one (i.e. the one that appears most often). In Mario's case, that means that he uses the power-ups as hit points, he can't heal in water, and he doesn't take damage from falling great heights.

You can even considered bosses who have 1 HP left and then you strike them. They don't end up dying, but instead go, "This isn't even my final form."

That's because the health bars function more as how many hits until the next phase rather than the boss's total health. It's meant to surprise the player, not to represent the boss's total health.

I know. They don't have any extra lives. See?

Shadye: "Huh? What'd you say? 'What's The Underwhere?' . . . You're kidding, right? Man, for a guy with no extra lives, you're sure hilarious! Isn't it obvious? This is where people go when their games are OVER! Some call it 'World-1' . . ."

This statement by Shadye actually disproves the definition of "game mechanic" that @ Kirby Dragons provided, which you're basing your argument off of (or at least I would assume so). It says that "game mechanics" are considered non-canon, and yet here we have Shadye directly referring to extra lives. This leaves only the definition that says that a game mechanic is anything that is designed for interacting with the game state. Anyway, Paper Mario universe =/= regular Mario universe, so naturally we're not taking this instance of extra lives into account.

I agree, Pit was resurrected each time. That's his extra life.

And we're not taking this into account because Palutena isn't here to revive him (no ally assistance). It's not really an extra life per se; more like a healing item in an RPG which will revive a team mate. It functions similarly gameplay-wise, but the explanation makes it a bit different.

A clone means you can keep playing. If every single cell is in the same of a person, is that person really different?

Yes, because the first person is dead in the middle of the stage, whereas the second is still battling. Jango Fett and Boba Fett from Star Wars are in a similar situation (Boba is Jango's cloned son), but they're clearly not the same person.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Yes, but most games have the power-ups as hit points. It's not about being as canon as the other games (I see the RPG games as canon anyways); it's about which health system is most commonly used. The power-up hit point system has been used in the majority of Mario's games, as well as both his first and most recent games. Thus, when we must choose between the two, we should pick the health system that relies on power-ups (which would actually be more advantageous if you think about it; Mario has tons of different power-ups, and they all act as a health upgrade, making him actually quite durable). As for Kirby, I'm not an expert on the series, but if that's how it is in most games, then I'd say that's the best way to do it.

Considering how many power-ups he has in this hypothetical thread, you're right (about Mario).

Very true. Not to mention the Super Star , which grants even more invincibility and enhanced movement, and can be stacked with any other power-up for both offensive and defensive options. There's also the Mega Mushroom, the Double Cherry, and such.

Sounds like we need a Mario vs (insert Tier A or B character) thread. I don't think anyone's done a tier list in a while but I think most people placed him at the top of tier C (which I recall was the biggest tier.

Well, the wheel never hits zero speed in Kirby Air Ride. It was also invulnerable in Kirby Air Ride even when not at full speed (but that's probably just the different gameplay mechanics) . If the wheel has max glide, Kirby will get some major air when going off a slope, so he could use a series of ramps and small walls to jump and bounce around the air, he doesn't really need to constantly use the paintbrush.

I suppose so, but I still feel like most characters who fly could get out of his range. Remember that the paint refills slowly while in air, and that to use a ramp he'd need to build a flat line a few feet long and than a diagonal line to serve as the ramp. Mind you Kirby's not just chasing these people in air going in a straight line, he actually would need to gain height to catch them. I feel like he'd be better off just using Mirror/Ice/Leaf while riding whatever Warp Star Machine he likes.

Rosalina has to drop the item on the ground, then walk over and pick it up. That would probably take 1-2 seconds, Rosalina would be dead 6 times over

Just went back and watched a video, it takes her one second at most to catch it. Unless Mega Laser (or similar attacks from other characters) activates and travels that fast, I think she'll be ok as long as she'd not fighting Sonic and a good distance back.

Just out of interest I'll do a quick tally.
6 hits: 5 games (Kirby's Dreamland, Kirby's Adventure, Kirby's Dreamland 2, Kirby 64, Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland)
10 hits: 2 games (Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, Dreamland 3)
2 hits: Kirby Mass Attack
7 hits: Kirby Canvas Curse
Invincible: Kirby Air Ride (because the vehicles are the ones with health bars)
Health Bar: 5 games (Kirby Super Star, Kirby Super Star Ultra, Kirby Squeak Squad, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Kirby Triple Deluxe)
There's a tie here, so I always say go with whatever makes the character stronger (yes I think Mario should take more than two hits)

Well Actually, Munomario made a good argument that the Power-up health system works better since mario will have dozens of power-ups to use...
And I'd guess 10 hits would be best for kirby.

In Donkey Kong Country Returns, you can purchase extra lives with coins. You can even buy Squawks to help you find puzzle pieces and buy banana juice to be invincible. To say that extra lives aren't an attribute of the character is to say buying balloons is a game mechanic, thereby saying buying Squawks to help you or banana juice to get through especially difficult levels is a game mechanic.
[\quote]

The difference between HP and extra lives are that HP shows (even if it's exaggerated or not totally realistic) how much damage a hero can take before dying. Extra Lives are there as a mercy to the player.

What is more, in Paper Mario, there is a place called Underwhere and Overthere. This is where people who have died end up going. Shaydes may talk about how they got "game over". Then there's Pit in Kid Icarus: Uprising. He brings up how he died so many times before and was resurrected. This essentially makes Pit immortal. Another example I can think of is Borderlands where if you do die, a duplicate of you will be made.

IDK about borderlands, but Paper Mario and KI:U are comedy games; the fact they reference extra lives is them breaking the fourth wall and acknowledging they are in a video game.


I'm not sure whether we should use characters base HP systems or not. You could make a good argument either way. I'm curious what everyone else thinks