Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Nerdicon]

I got Marth vs Shulk by the way.
And I now support Rosalina for strongest.
I refuse to be proven wrong 3 times!

 

[Munomario777]

VS
FIGHT!!!

Rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Sonic may use anything compiled in this post.
• Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc.
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's get right into this analysis! First up, Rosalina is on the offensive!
's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic's extreme speed and reflexes allow Sonic to easily avoid attacks like this.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic has been shown to be proficient at dodging high-speed projectiles similar to this one, and the Star Bits don't do much damage anyway. In addition, the Lightning Shield can deflect small projectiles like these.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!
's Counter: Fire Shield/Sonic Speed!/Super Sonic Style!/Chaos Control
Sonic's Fire Shield allows him to ignore any heat-based attacks, including lava (and thus the red-hot surface of a star). As for the black hole, Sonic outran a black hole in Sonic Colors for quite a bit, and that only caught up to him because it was constantly expanding, which the black holes in Galaxy don't seem to do. Plus, even when he did get sucked in, he remained conscious. Alternatively, he could use his Super Sonic form to increase his speed, become invincible, and gain flight to easily escape, and Chaos Control allows him to teleport, which could also be used to escape. As for the healing Mushrooms, Sonic's attacks are so quick that Rosalina likely wouldn't have enough time to recover the damage dealt by Sonic.

Well, it seems like Rosalina doesn't have many options for landing hits on Sonic thanks to his Super Sonic form and such. However, we're only halfway through the analysis! Next up, Sonic's attacks.
's Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
's Counter: Shield
Rosalina has a protective shield that she can use to block virtually any attack.
's Counter Counter: Too Slow!/Chaos Control
Sonic's blazing speed (Mach 10+) would catch Rosalina off guard, and she wouldn't be fast enough to put her shield up in time. Plus, he can freeze time with Chaos Control, and possibly teleport inside her shield with Chaos Control. He could fit inside by shrinking via a magical gem inside of his shoe.

's Attack: Spin Jump
Sonic can utilize his natural ability to curl up into a ball when he jumps, damaging any opponent he comes in contact with.
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
's Counter: Luma Swarm
Since the Homing Attack automatically homes in on the nearest enemy, Rosalina could create Lumas near Sonic to draw his Homing Attack in that direction.

's Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
's Counter: Luma Swarm
Since the Homing Attack automatically homes in on the nearest enemy, Rosalina could create Lumas near Sonic to draw his Homing Attack in that direction.
's Counter Counter: Auto Homing Chain
Since the Light Speed Attack has the unique property of targeting all enemies in the area in rapid succession, he would get to Rosalina quickly, especially since the attack moves at light speed.

's Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: The Wisps
The Wisps are a race of alien power-ups that can grant Sonic different Color Powers. These include a bomb, a black hole, a laser, and more, and can be combined to form the Final Color Blaster, a super-powerful attack of rainbow epicness!
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: Chaos Control!
Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds' power to teleport, freeze time, and more.
's Counter: N/A
Rosalina's reflexes aren't enough to react to instant teleportation, and she doesn't have any time-bending abilities of her own other than apparently not aging, so Sonic has a guaranteed hit here.

's Attack: Super Sonic Style!
Sonic's ultimate transformation (other than Hyper Sonic), this has Sonic harness the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic is faster, invincible, stronger, flying, and more, at the cost of one Ring per second. With a maximum of 999,999 Rings, Sonic can stay in this form for about eleven days. This is more than enough time for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle.
's Counter: ...
I got nothin'.

CONCLUSION: While Rosalina has the power of the cosmos at her command, Sonic's eleven day invincibility, blazing speed, and time and space manipulation are just too much for this Guardian of the Galaxy Cosmos.

WINNER:

That wraps up the Standard Bracket; now onto the Losers Bracket!

This analysis is part of the bracket

 

[Crystanium]

As for the whole Triforce of Power deal:

Except, citation 19 doesn't say "true power", but "great power". This is unquantifiable. "This is absolute power" is an interpretation, as is "god-like entity". I'll use the Oxford English Dictionary, since I find it better than other dictionaries. God-like is defined as "resembling God or a god in qualities such as power, beauty, or benevolence". Pit is god-like. Citation 28 doesn't say anything about invulnerability, though I can understand, given the situation. Indeed, Ganondorf is invulnerable to standard attacks, but the extent of this has not been demonstrated beyond Tetra's dagger and Valoo's flame. I've yet to be given a reason as to why extrapolation is accepted by you.

It could go either way, honestly. "Atomic disruption" can be interpreted as either disrupting the structure of the atoms individually or in relation to each other; the best thing to do here would be to look at in-game examples and see which definition those fit best.

If you understand it in that way, sure, but sharp objects aren't causing any of these. Bone is made of calcium carbonate, which is made up of the two elements, calcium and carbon. Bullets "crush" the target they hit. If bone is reduced to fine powder, it's still calcium carbonate. The elements have not been disrupted in relation to each other. An atom is extremely small. All a bullet would do is push the atoms out of the way, not disrupt them. You'd probably need something on a nano scale for that to work.

How are cameos inherently non-canon? If a famous actor has a cameo in a movie, that isn't wiped out of existence; the actor still played that role.

Yes, the actor, but not the character. Arnold Schwarzenegger can play as Conan in one movie and the Terminator in another. If he plays as the Terminator in some movie like The Expendables, that doesn't mean the Terminator universe is all of a sudden combined with The Expendables universe. That has to be established by both of the creators. In Kirby's and Samus' case, there has not been a confirmation from Yoshio Sakamoto that Samus ever traveled to a planet in the Kirbyverse, nor has it been confired by Masahiro Sakurai. Unless Sakurai contradicted himself when he said Kirby is 8".[/

A fictional example is:

Spoiler: Guardians of the Galaxy post-credits spoilers

Howard the Duck from the Marvel comics is in the Collector's collection.

I don't understand what you mean by "Collector's collection".

In fact, this whole situation is comparable to the Marvel universe. Both have many separate franchises, the characters of which appear in other franchises from time to time. Both span multiple forms of media, have obscure ends, span multiple galaxies, planets, and dimensions, and perhaps most importantly, have a massive crossover where the most prominent characters from the most prominent franchises join together for an epic adventure/smack down/what have you. The only real difference in the structure here is that Nintendo doesn't really go into detail on the matter, but that doesn't really matter since it's clear from in-game examples that this is the case.

Marvel has Earth 616, as well as a wide variety of other earths. Crossovers with DC, for example, were non-canon, or probably just an earth of its own.

Erm... Hyrule is a kingdom, not a universe. In fact, the large-scale setting of the Zelda series (AKA not just Hyrule, but what it resides in) isn't really described as a universe, but rather as a "world". A world isn't the same as a universe:

Argue with the Deku Tree about that, then. He says, "Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule . . ."

Could there be different gods that are in charge of this specific Zelda planet, but not necessarily the entire gaming universe? Certainly. This would solve the problem of them not needing help to create the universe and all, but I'll take a different approach to that anyway. "Omnipotent" doesn't necessarily mean unlimited power:

Of course, but that possibility isn't proof. It also doesn't matter if you use the definition of omnipotence to mean "vast power". That doesn't negate the ability to create the Universe, especially for creator gods.

Very great power still isn't infinite, and more power would likely be needed to create an entire universe (even though it appears that that's not what Zelda's gods are doing in the first place).

Considering I don't believe in any gods myself, I don't see it necessary for a being of infinite power to create a universe.

It's very possible that he had a part in creating the universe, but I don't think that there's enough to draw a conclusion as-is (creating weapons doesn't necessarily mean you can create a universe).

I'm only going with the possibility for Dyntos, since there isn't any other known creator god. I'm not sure which chapter, but from the Kid Icarus wiki, Palutena supposedly says that he's more powerful than she can imagine, or soething like that.

Aside from the fact that this was scrapped and is thus non-canon, someone believing in gods isn't solid proof that they actually exist in this context, as you pointed out earlier. However, if we're counting this as canon, then I'd say that's their way of interpreting the creation of the universe (or perhaps it's a record of the earliest of video game creation, which hasn't actually been documented in a game yet).

Of course, since we never observe any gods in the Metroid series anyway. The closest would probably be the Light of Aether, though that seems akin to sun worship. The Chozo seem to be creators to some extent, having the ability to grant self-awareness to their creations as in the case of the First Elysian.

As @ ShadowLBlue so eloquently put it:

I'm just waiting for a reply as to why I should accept a common statement that hasn't been proved. I've already given my reason.

 

[Munomario777]

Except, citation 19 doesn't say "true power", but "great power". This is unquantifiable. "This is absolute power" is an interpretation, as is "god-like entity". I'll use the Oxford English Dictionary, since I find it better than other dictionaries. God-like is defined as "resembling God or a god in qualities such as power, beauty, or benevolence". Pit is god-like. Citation 28 doesn't say anything about invulnerability, though I can understand, given the situation. Indeed, Ganondorf is invulnerable to standard attacks, but the extent of this has not been demonstrated beyond Tetra's dagger and Valoo's flame. I've yet to be given a reason as to why extrapolation is accepted by you.

Meh, great power, true power, same difference. They both mean that there's a lot of power there. As for absolute power, I'd say as godly power counts as absolute power (more on that in a sec). As for "god-like entity", I think it's safe to assume that it means god-like in power, considering how the artifact's name is the Triforce of Power. By the way, there is a source for the Triforce of Power granting godly powers:

"In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was he exposed, subdued, and brought to justice. Yet... By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods. His abiding hatred and lust for power turned to purest malice..." — A Sage (Twilight Princess)

As for invulnerability, my proof is in the lore.

If you understand it in that way, sure, but sharp objects aren't causing any of these. Bone is made of calcium carbonate, which is made up of the two elements, calcium and carbon. Bullets "crush" the target they hit. If bone is reduced to fine powder, it's still calcium carbonate. The elements have not been disrupted in relation to each other. An atom is extremely small. All a bullet would do is push the atoms out of the way, not disrupt them. You'd probably need something on a nano scale for that to work.

It would be altering the structure of the atoms, though. As I said earlier, we should look at in-game examples and see which definition those match best. I don't see how this would affect Samus VS Ganon anyway, since he's only able to be damaged by holy weapons.

Yes, the actor, but not the character. Arnold Schwarzenegger can play as Conan in one movie and the Terminator in another. If he plays as the Terminator in some movie like The Expendables, that doesn't mean the Terminator universe is all of a sudden combined with The Expendables universe. That has to be established by both of the creators. In Kirby's and Samus' case, there has not been a confirmation from Yoshio Sakamoto that Samus ever traveled to a planet in the Kirbyverse, nor has it been confired by Masahiro Sakurai. Unless Sakurai contradicted himself when he said Kirby is 8".

The main difference here is that Nintendo owns both franchises, so there's no confirmation that really needs to be done. Nintendo is the owner of both Kirby and Metroid. The Expendables and Terminator don't share an owner. As for the size issue... I dunno, but Sakurai does pull that sort of thing quite often between the Kirby series and Smash Brothers, so I'm guessing it's just an overlooked detail. Either that or gameplay-story segregation; it would look kind of weird to see a towering Samus next to an eight-inch Kirby after all.

I don't understand what you mean by "Collector's collection".

It's a character in Guardians of the Galaxy (and other Marvel series as I've been told) who collects life forms from different planets and such.

Marvel has Earth 616, as well as a wide variety of other earths. Crossovers with DC, for example, were non-canon, or probably just an earth of its own.

Gaming has the gaming universe, as well as a wide variety of other dimensions/universes. Adaptations for TV shows, for example, were non-canon, or probably just a universe of their own.

Argue with the Deku Tree about that, then. He says, "Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule . . ."

There's nothing to argue. The kingdom of Hyrule is in chaos, and the three goddesses of that planet descended upon it to calm the kingdom down/rule it/etc. Simple.

Of course, but that possibility isn't proof. It also doesn't matter if you use the definition of omnipotence to mean "vast power". That doesn't negate the ability to create the Universe, especially for creator gods.

Oh, I already presented my proof. Now I'm just disproving your disproof (or rather, showing how the evidence you provided doesn't rule out the one gaming universe theory, and how it fits within the theory rather well).

Considering I don't believe in any gods myself, I don't see it necessary for a being of infinite power to create a universe.

Assuming the universe is infinite (since it seems like it is IRL), I'd imagine it would be necessary.

I'm only going with the possibility for Dyntos, since there isn't any other known creator god. I'm not sure which chapter, but from the Kid Icarus wiki, Palutena supposedly says that he's more powerful than she can imagine, or soething like that.

Ah, interesting.

Of course, since we never observe any gods in the Metroid series anyway. The closest would probably be the Light of Aether, though that seems akin to sun worship. The Chozo seem to be creators to some extent, having the ability to grant self-awareness to their creations as in the case of the First Elysian.

Agreed.

I'm just waiting for a reply as to why I should accept a common statement that hasn't been proved. I've already given my reason.

I'm just waiting for a reply as to why I shouldn't accept a common statement that has been proven. I've already provided proof.

 

[Crystanium]

Meh, great power, true power, same difference. They both mean that there's a lot of power there. As for absolute power, I'd say as godly power counts as absolute power (more on that in a sec). As for "god-like entity", I think it's safe to assume that it means god-like in power, considering how the artifact's name is the Triforce of Power.

Well, yes. The OED definition mentioned "power" with reference to "god-like".

By the way, there is a source for the Triforce of Power granting godly powers:

If you want to understand that as "godly powers". It seems to me as being granted authority from the gods, "a right or authority that is given or delegated to a person or body".

As for invulnerability, my proof is in the lore.

Extrapolation gives erroneous results. I shouldn't have to repeat this.

It would be altering the structure of the atoms, though. As I said earlier, we should look at in-game examples and see which definition those match best. I don't see how this would affect Samus VS Ganon anyway, since he's only able to be damaged by holy weapons.

No it wouldn't. It would be altering the structure of the object, but not the atoms themselves. Atoms are made up of electrons, protons, and neutrons. To alter the structure of an atom would be to alter these constituents of the atom. Atomic structure is not the same as whatever kind of structure you're thinking of.

The main difference here is that Nintendo owns both franchises, so there's no confirmation that really needs to be done. Nintendo is the owner of both Kirby and Metroid. The Expendables and Terminator don't share an owner. As for the size issue... I dunno, but Sakurai does pull that sort of thing quite often between the Kirby series and Smash Brothers, so I'm guessing it's just an overlooked detail. Either that or gameplay-story segregation; it would look kind of weird to see a towering Samus next to an eight-inch Kirby after all.

And the difference is one character is owned by Sakurai and the other is owned by Sakamoto. In a larger context, yes, Nintendo owns both, but it's not up to Nintendo. You could argue that in the Nintendo universe, Kirby and Samus exist together, but when it comes to the Kirbyverse and Metroidverse, those two are their own sub-sets of Nintendo, so-to-speak.

It's a character in Guardians of the Galaxy (and other Marvel series as I've been told) who collects life forms from different planets and such.[/quote]

If these life forms are Marvel characters, I don't see the issue.

There's nothing to argue. The kingdom of Hyrule is in chaos, and the three goddesses of that planet descended upon it to calm the kingdom down/rule it/etc. Simple.

A kingdom cannot exist unless there's first a king or queen. It's relational.

Oh, I already presented my proof. Now I'm just disproving your disproof (or rather, showing how the evidence you provided doesn't rule out the one gaming universe theory, and how it fits within the theory rather well).

All you did was provide a definition of "omnipotence" contrary to the popular understanding of omnipotence. That in no way disproves my argument.

Assuming the universe is infinite (since it seems like it is IRL), I'd imagine it would be necessary.[/quote]

Physics doesn't apply the farther you go back, so . . .

I'm just waiting for a reply as to why I shouldn't accept a common statement that has been proven. I've already provided proof.

I'll cover this, point-by-point.

I can see Mario and Donkey Kong living in the same universe because they did originate in the same game. It wasn't until later that Mario got his own games and did his own thing, kind of like how Yoshi started with Mario, but has since had his own games.

While it's interesting that II Piantissimo has the face of the running man in Super Mario Sunshine, there are a few problems. First, if the running man behaves as he does in Super Mario Sunshine, he should tell Link his name. Second, Link is probably around 5'7", whereas Mario is 5'1". II Piantissimo is about Mario's height. From the looks of it, the running man is about Link's height. The running man also has light skin, whereas II Piantissimo does not. He also doesn't wear purple, nor boxing gloves, nor boxing clothes, nor shoes, but sandals and a Grecian attire. He also doesn't have a goatee, nor a ponytail.

All that can be said of this is that Nintendo likes cameos, but from an in-universe perspective for you, all it could mean is this is an alternate running man, just as the running man in Termina Field (which is a parallel universe) is the postman.

Link's appearance in Super Mario RPG is just the same as Samus' appearance in Super Mario RPG. It's just a cameo. Heck, not only do you see Link in Donkey Kong Country 2 when you're collecting the DK coins, you also see Earthworm Jim's gun and Sonic's shoes off to the side.

It's interesting to see Mamu in Link's Awakening, but this is just a dream.

Samus' ship in Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze is also a cameo, especially homage to the Metroid series, since Retro Studios worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy and the recent Donkey Kong Country games.

Samus' appearance in Kirby's Dream Land 3, once again, is just a cameo. The size difference is quite a problem and contradicts Sakurai.

Kid Icarus has Komaytos, and even the manual does say they may be from some other place, but again, this is homage to the Metroid series, considering Metroid for the NES was made before Kid Icarus for the NES and used the same engine and was produced by the late Gunpei Yokoi. It's honestly not a surprise.

It's cool to see Pikmin and Super Mario Galaxy together, but guess who made both games? Shigeru Miyamoto. It's honestly no surprise. Really, we can see Earth in many kinds of fiction, but that doesn't mean it's our earth, only a derivative, which works if you take the multiverse approach, rather than a singular universe. After all, I could argue that the Ceres Station in Super Metroid was located in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter where the dwarf planet Ceres is, hence the name of the station. So Zebes would be within our solar system, not the FS-176 system.

I'm already familiar with the StarFox and F-Zero connection, especially with James McCloud in F-Zero. Considering F-Zero X was made long before StarFox Command, that's not very persuasive. Same with Octoman, who was also in F-Zero X. Keep in mind, F-Zero X was made for the Nintendo 64. The Nintendo DS wasn't around at the time, meaning Falco's idea is not his idea.

I'm sorry to say, but the speculation is just that. It's not evidence and it's not a surprise to see these cameos occur when they're all under the umbrella that is Nintendo. The other fellow saying "there isn't enough definitive evidence" with regard to other Nintendo series' makes me smirk. Honestly, none of it's definitive. I'm going to take that the other video is just doing the same thing. Mario, to God of War, to reality.

 

[Wintropy]

Kid Icarus has Komaytos, and even the manual does say they may be from some other place, but again, this is homage to the Metroid series, considering Metroid for the NES was made before Kid Icarus for the NES and used the same engine and was produced by the late Gunpei Yokoi. It's honestly not a surprise.

Viridi tells Pit that the Kid Icarus universe and the Metroid universe are not connected. It's ostensibly just coincidence that Komaytos resemble Metroids, though Pit is knowledgeable enough in his fourth wall-breaking vidya history to recognise the similarities.

Hope that helps. :3

 

[Munomario777]

Well, yes. The OED definition mentioned "power" with reference to "god-like".

Mmmhmm.

If you want to understand that as "godly powers". It seems to me as being granted authority from the gods, "a right or authority that is given or delegated to a person or body".

Well, I don't think Ganondorf as ever had godly authority... It would be best to look at the context for this one. The quote is from Twilight Princess, which I haven't actually played, so if anyone has any info, it would be appreciated.

Extrapolation gives erroneous results. I shouldn't have to repeat this.

I'm not extrapolating. The lore says that Ganondorf can only be harmed by godly weapons.

No it wouldn't. It would be altering the structure of the object, but not the atoms themselves. Atoms are made up of electrons, protons, and neutrons. To alter the structure of an atom would be to alter these constituents of the atom. Atomic structure is not the same as whatever kind of structure you're thinking of.

Oops, I meant structure of the atoms in relation to each other, in the same way that a building is a structure of beams, walls, and such.

And the difference is one character is owned by Sakurai and the other is owned by Sakamoto. In a larger context, yes, Nintendo owns both, but it's not up to Nintendo. You could argue that in the Nintendo universe, Kirby and Samus exist together, but when it comes to the Kirbyverse and Metroidverse, those two are their own sub-sets of Nintendo, so-to-speak.

It really shouldn't matter though, for reasons I'll get into in a second.

If these life forms are Marvel characters, I don't see the issue.

Then why isn't Kirby and Samus both being Nintendo characters enough? The Howard the Duck and Guardians of the Galaxy series weren't created by the same people.

A kingdom cannot exist unless there's first a king or queen. It's relational.

Then how does Princess Peach rule the Mushroom Kingdom? Also, Hyrule is a kingdom, as is stated throughout the games.

All you did was provide a definition of "omnipotence" contrary to the popular understanding of omnipotence. That in no way disproves my argument.

Your argument is based on the definition of "omnipotence" always being "infinite power." Thus, since I proved that it doesn't necessarily mean that, your argument isn't solid.

Physics doesn't apply the farther you go back, so . . .

What makes you say that?

I'll cover this, point-by-point.

I can see Mario and Donkey Kong living in the same universe because they did originate in the same game. It wasn't until later that Mario got his own games and did his own thing, kind of like how Yoshi started with Mario, but has since had his own games.

Of course; Mario, DK, and Yoshi are extremely closely related franchises.

While it's interesting that II Piantissimo has the face of the running man in Super Mario Sunshine, there are a few problems. First, if the running man behaves as he does in Super Mario Sunshine, he should tell Link his name. Second, Link is probably around 5'7", whereas Mario is 5'1". II Piantissimo is about Mario's height. From the looks of it, the running man is about Link's height. The running man also has light skin, whereas II Piantissimo does not. He also doesn't wear purple, nor boxing gloves, nor boxing clothes, nor shoes, but sandals and a Grecian attire. He also doesn't have a goatee, nor a ponytail.

If he's in that Pianta disguise, wouldn't it kind of blow his cover to tell everyone he meets his name? As for the height, other than Nintendo's problems with scaling in general/resizing to fit the game's style, a person's height doesn't stay the same throughout their lifespan, and I'd imagine there's some time between Sunshine and his appearances in Zelda if this is the case (plus, six inches isn't even that major of a change to begin with). Of course he would get a tan; he's on a tropical island! As for the clothing, by that logic, since Peach wears a biker suit in Mario Kart when riding a bike, it's a different Peach. A change of outfit a different person does not make. Same with the hairdo. My theory is that this is after the Zelda game(s), when he's retired from being a mailman and moved to the tropical island. He's a bit self-conscious about his shrinking as he gets older, so he aims to start a new life and a new identity. (Or he just disguises as a Pianta to try to fit in with the locals.)

All that can be said of this is that Nintendo likes cameos, but from an in-universe perspective for you, all it could mean is this is an alternate running man, just as the running man in Termina Field (which is a parallel universe) is the postman.

Really? Because I just said quite a bit more up there. ^

Link's appearance in Super Mario RPG is just the same as Samus' appearance in Super Mario RPG. It's just a cameo. Heck, not only do you see Link in Donkey Kong Country 2 when you're collecting the DK coins, you also see Earthworm Jim's gun and Sonic's shoes off to the side.

How exactly are cameos inherently non-canon? Also, thank you for providing more evidence for me to use.

It's interesting to see Mamu in Link's Awakening, but this is just a dream.

Still, dreams usually have something that they're based off of, such as something that happened in your day. It's pretty crazy that Link dreamt about Wart with the exact same look, name, minions, etc... unless he'd seen them before.

Samus' ship in Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze is also a cameo, especially homage to the Metroid series, since Retro Studios worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy and the recent Donkey Kong Country games.

Again, thanks for the evidence. This one even has the same developers!

Samus' appearance in Kirby's Dream Land 3, once again, is just a cameo. The size difference is quite a problem and contradicts Sakurai.

Again, how are cameos inherently non-canon? As for the size, it's either an oversight or an adaptation to fit the gameplay (similar to Smash, in fact).

Kid Icarus has Komaytos, and even the manual does say they may be from some other place, but again, this is homage to the Metroid series, considering Metroid for the NES was made before Kid Icarus for the NES and used the same engine and was produced by the late Gunpei Yokoi. It's honestly not a surprise.

Regardless of developmental reasons, there are still creatures that bear a striking resemblance to Metroids in that game; as you said, even the manual acknowledges that they come from the Metroidverse. Plus, Pit mentions the Metroids by name, and Viridi mentions the Metroidverse. Before you say "she said they're different universes because Viridi said so", Palutena's the one with the all-seeing eye and the all-knowing brain, not Viridi.

It's cool to see Pikmin and Super Mario Galaxy together, but guess who made both games? Shigeru Miyamoto. It's honestly no surprise. Really, we can see Earth in many kinds of fiction, but that doesn't mean it's our earth, only a derivative, which works if you take the multiverse approach, rather than a singular universe. After all, I could argue that the Ceres Station in Super Metroid was located in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter where the dwarf planet Ceres is, hence the name of the station. So Zebes would be within our solar system, not the FS-176 system.

If your argument against Kirby and Samus appearing together is that they don't share a developer (even though I don't think that's a good reason to dismiss a crossover), then what's your reasoning for this one being non-canon?

I'm already familiar with the StarFox and F-Zero connection, especially with James McCloud in F-Zero. Considering F-Zero X was made long before StarFox Command, that's not very persuasive. Same with Octoman, who was also in F-Zero X. Keep in mind, F-Zero X was made for the Nintendo 64. The Nintendo DS wasn't around at the time, meaning Falco's idea is not his idea.

Actually, James McCloud was an integral part to the events before Star Fox 64 (and was referenced in that game), which came out a year or two before F-Zero X.

I'm sorry to say, but the speculation is just that. It's not evidence and it's not a surprise to see these cameos occur when they're all under the umbrella that is Nintendo. The other fellow saying "there isn't enough definitive evidence" with regard to other Nintendo series' makes me smirk. Honestly, none of it's definitive. I'm going to take that the other video is just doing the same thing. Mario, to God of War, to reality.

It is evidence. I presented it to you in the form of video footage of characters appearing in other characters' games, but you dismiss it with no reason other than "it's a cameo", which isn't a reason for something not to happen in the first place. I'd say it's a surprise to see Samus in the Kirby games when they're perceived as two separate universes. However, if you use the one world view, everything makes sense. Why is Samus in Kirby's game? She probably landed there on her space travels to exterminate the Metroids (I'm surprised she hasn't blown it up by now). Why is the Running Man in Mario Sunshine? He probably wanted a vacation from his tiring running work (he's out of breath all the time in the Zelda games after a run). Why is James McCloud in F-Zero X? He loves flying Arwings, and an F-Zero Machine is a recreational alternative to the space battles that James enjoys. Why did Link dream about Chain Chomps, Shy Guys, and Pokeys? Because he was just in the Mushroom Kingdom earlier that day competing in a Mario Kart tournament. And how does Smash Brothers even begin to happen? Because Master Hand went to the far reaches of the gamingverse and put the best characters from the world of gaming for an epic smackdown of a fighting game.

 

[Wintropy]

Well, I don't think Ganondorf as ever had godly authority... It would be best to look at the context for this one. The quote is from Twilight Princess, which I haven't actually played, so if anyone has any info, it would be appreciated.

This is a brief summary of Ganondorf's role in the story:

Spoiler

Twilight Princess takes place in the "child" timeline, the timeline that carries on from Link returning to the past and setting off as a child. After his defeat at the end of Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf is sentenced to death by the Seven Sages, who attempt to execute him with a sacred sword. Because Ganondorf possesses the Triforce of Power, though, he survives the blow and manages to break free. He kills one of the Sages and escapes with the sword, determined to use it to destroy the world he despises so much.

Of course, even with the Triforce of Power having reawakened, he doesn't have the power he needs to crush Hyrule. He appears to Zant, a denizen of the Twilight Realm, in the form of a god-like being: in this case, an enormous and powerful spirit that resembles Ganondorf's head made of golden flames. Zant, believing Ganondorf to be a god, does his bidding and stages an invasion of Hyrule.

At the climax of the game, Link, Zelda and Midna make their way to Hyrule Castle, which has been overwhelmed by the cursed people of the Twilight Realm. Zant is defeated and Ganondorf, now prepared to show his true strength, awaits the heroes in the throne room. There, the final battle begins.

He battles Link in four forms: first by possessing Zelda's body with dark magic and using her as his puppet; next by transforming into a demonic boar; then by riding within Hyrule Field, aided by a coterie of phantasmal cavalry; and finally, in a swordfight with Link himself.

What's interesting to note is that this game demonstrates Ganondorf's immortality in a uniquely salient manner. The Sages recall with horror how Ganondorf was discovered to be immune to their efforts to execute him, even with the sacred blade, merely leaving with a burning scar on his chest; beyond that, then, he appears to Zant as a spiritual projection that inspires terror and awe in the young Twili. While not explicitly god-like in itself, Zant certainly feels a sense of spiritual devotion to the Dark Lord. Do bear in mind that Zant is insane and highly impressionable, though - this latter example is subjective.

That being said, it's shown that Ganondorf can survive what would otherwise be fatal blows for a lesser man. After Link seemingly defeats Ganondorf in their respective beast forms, he is thought to be defeated - only to return moments later in the same form he appeared to Zant in. Hyrule Historia confirms that, because his soul is borne of hatred and wrath, and he is the incarnation of the curse Demise cast upon the world, he can never truly die. His rage and anger allows him to continue living even after his physical body is destroyed, unless he is slain by the Master Sword.

After the fight, Midna summons the power of the Fused Twilight and attempts to kill Ganondorf herself. When Ganondorf appears thereafter, he has returned to his physical form - and having defeated Midna, he laughs and crushes the Fused Twilight with his bare hands. He is eventually defeated by a combination of the Light Arrows (which stun him enough for Link to approach) and, finally, being pierced in the heart by the Master Sword. Even so, he stands upright to the end, the Blade of Evil's Bane impaled through his heart and his hatred sustaining him. He dies shortly thereafter, standing perfectly straight and bearing the last wound of the Master Sword.

It's worth noting that, in both the Beast Ganon and the Dark Lord Ganondorf battles, Link strikes at Ganondorf's scar to defeat him. It's never really dwelt upon, but we can infer that the executioner's blade did do some lasting damage to him, or at least exposed a weakness that can be exploited by conventional means; he just didn't die from it, as his power is too great to be subdued by anything other than the Master Sword.

As I recall, sacred or blessed weapons such as the Light Arrows will only wound or stun Ganondorf. He can only be truly defeated with the power of the Master Sword - and even then, it only seals him away, and he can never really die. He is defeated for good at the end of The Wind Waker, of course, when he is turned to stone by the Master Sword's power Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule wishes for the kingdom to be washed away - but in that instance, the power of the Goddesses is directly being used to defeat him. Any trace of Ganondorf is washed away after that, at least insofar as we know; the other games that take place in that timeline suggest that, centuries later, Ganondorf and Hyrule are just popular myths from ancient times.

tl;dr - Ganondorf possesses the Triforce of Power and is the incarnation of Demise's curse. The former means he can't be killed through conventional means, and the latter means he'll return anyway even if he is defeated.

It is evidence. I presented it to you in the form of video footage of characters appearing in other characters' games, but you dismiss it with no reason other than "it's a cameo", which isn't a reason for something not to happen in the first place. I'd say it's a surprise to see Samus in the Kirby games when they're perceived as two separate universes. However, if you use the one world view, everything makes sense. Why is Samus in Kirby's game? She probably landed there on her space travels to exterminate the Metroids (I'm surprised she hasn't blown it up by now). Why is the Running Man in Mario Sunshine? He probably wanted a vacation from his tiring running work (he's out of breath all the time in the Zelda games after a run). Why is James McCloud in F-Zero X? He loves flying Arwings, and an F-Zero Machine is a recreational alternative to the space battles that James enjoys. Why did Link dream about Chain Chomps, Shy Guys, and Pokeys? Because he was just in the Mushroom Kingdom earlier that day competing in a Mario Kart tournament. And how does Smash Brothers even begin to happen? Because Master Hand went to the far reaches of the gamingverse and put the best characters from the world of gaming for an epic smackdown of a fighting game.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's really justifiable evidence. I think you're reading too much into it.

Headcanon is headcanon, though. If that's what you think is the case, well, mi amigo, more power to ya~

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I don't think Ganondorf as ever had godly authority... It would be best to look at the context for this one. The quote is from Twilight Princess, which I haven't actually played, so if anyone has any info, it would be appreciated.

Well, if you're chosen, then you are granted something. In this case, Ganondorf received Din's blessing. I've played TP.

I'm not extrapolating. The lore says that Ganondorf can only be harmed by godly weapons.

The lore, which comes from characters within the game, make this claim. A claim is not the same thing as fact, despite their sage status.

Oops, I meant structure of the atoms in relation to each other, in the same way that a building is a structure of beams, walls, and such.

Well, that's not atomic disruption. Otherwise, a mere punch should harm Dark Samus.

Then why isn't Kirby and Samus both being Nintendo characters enough? The Howard the Duck and Guardians of the Galaxy series weren't created by the same people.

Because they have their own respective universe. The Guardians of the Galaxy film is its own universe. It's Marvel, but it's not Earth 616, which is the mainstream continuity.

Then how does Princess Peach rule the Mushroom Kingdom? Also, Hyrule is a kingdom, as is stated throughout the games.[/quote]

Because the Mushroom Kingdom is ruled by Princess Peach. Without the kingdom, she'd just be Peach. Hyrule is more of a geographical region or continent, but my point was that Hyrule could not be understood as a kingdom if there was no royalty, since it was merely chaotic.

Your argument is based on the definition of "omnipotence" always being "infinite power." Thus, since I proved that it doesn't necessarily mean that, your argument isn't solid.

It doesn't matter either way. Gods in myths weren't omnipotent, they were just very powerful.

What makes you say that?

In a singularity, physics are inapplicable.

Of course; Mario, DK, and Yoshi are extremely closely related franchises.

Indeed, because they were all created by Shigeru Miyamoto.

If he's in that Pianta disguise, wouldn't it kind of blow his cover to tell everyone he meets his name?

This question presupposes that the running man wanted to hide his identity in the first place. It's curious to me that his Bunny Hood is missing.

As for the height, other than Nintendo's problems with scaling in general/resizing to fit the game's style, a person's height doesn't stay the same throughout their lifespan, and I'd imagine there's some time between Sunshine and his appearances in Zelda if this is the case (plus, six inches isn't even that major of a change to begin with).

That's an assumption. As for height, as one ages, he/she might shrink. This wouldn't happen in a matter of a few years, however. Six inches is a major change. I'm 5'11". My wife is 5'3". There's a noticeable difference.

Of course he would get a tan; he's on a tropical island!

I expected this, which I must this ask why his head is also dark by comparison, if he's wearing that silly mask to hide his identity?

As for the clothing, by that logic, since Peach wears a biker suit in Mario Kart when riding a bike, it's a different Peach.

We know that it's the same Peach because the rest of her appearance and size coincide. Besides, she's not a character making a cameo in her own series, so this is a false equivalence.

A change of outfit a different person does not make. Same with the hairdo. My theory is that this is after the Zelda game(s), when he's retired from being a mailman and moved to the tropical island. He's a bit self-conscious about his shrinking as he gets older, so he aims to start a new life and a new identity. (Or he just disguises as a Pianta to try to fit in with the locals.)

He was a postman in Majora's Mask, which is a parallel universe. It makes no sense for the postman to retire and head to a tropical island, otherwise, he could have gone off somewhere in the Great Bay. The postman and running man are two different people. We're going by the running man. The only reason why I mentioned the postman was to offer an alternative. In other words, in Zelda, the running man is some runner with a Grecian get-up. In Mario, he's a man who loves racing against Mario. Two different people in their own, respective universes who share similar traits.

How exactly are cameos inherently non-canon? Also, thank you for providing more evidence for me to use.

It's canon that in Kirby's Dream Land 3, Kirby encountered Samus and the Metroids, but in the Metroidverse, it's not canon. That's all I mean.

Still, dreams usually have something that they're based off of, such as something that happened in your day. It's pretty crazy that Link dreamt about Wart with the exact same look, name, minions, etc... unless he'd seen them before.

Stephen LeBarge refers to these as forms. I had a dream before with Homer Simpson, but he was supposed to be my step-dad. Dreams bring about unrealistic things from reality.

Again, thanks for the evidence. This one even has the same developers!

If you want to call it that.

Again, how are cameos inherently non-canon? As for the size, it's either an oversight or an adaptation to fit the gameplay (similar to Smash, in fact).[/quote]

I explained above. And perhaps, but you're now working with what developers decided to work with, yet you ignore this when it comes to cameos and instead think it means all Nintendo characters live in the same universe.

Regardless of developmental reasons, there are still creatures that bear a striking resemblance to Metroids in that game; as you said, even the manual acknowledges that they come from the Metroidverse. Plus, Pit mentions the Metroids by name, and Viridi mentions the Metroidverse. Before you say "she said they're different universes because Viridi said so", Palutena's the one with the all-seeing eye and the all-knowing brain, not Viridi.

I never said the manual says that. I said that the manual hints that they came from somewhere, but it doesn't state where. Pit doesn't mention Metroids by name, either. He's about to, but Viridi shuts him up. If you've played Kid Icarus: Uprising, you'd know that all the characters, not just Lady Palutena, break the fourth wall.

If your argument against Kirby and Samus appearing together is that they don't share a developer (even though I don't think that's a good reason to dismiss a crossover), then what's your reasoning for this one being non-canon?

I explained above.

Actually, James McCloud was an integral part to the events before Star Fox 64 (and was referenced in that game), which came out a year or two before F-Zero X.

All right, but that doesn't address anything about Octoman, and James McCloud doesn't look like a fox.

It is evidence. I presented it to you in the form of video footage of characters appearing in other characters' games, but you dismiss it with no reason other than "it's a cameo", which isn't a reason for something not to happen in the first place. I'd say it's a surprise to see Samus in the Kirby games when they're perceived as two separate universes. However, if you use the one world view, everything makes sense. Why is Samus in Kirby's game? She probably landed there on her space travels to exterminate the Metroids (I'm surprised she hasn't blown it up by now). Why is the Running Man in Mario Sunshine? He probably wanted a vacation from his tiring running work (he's out of breath all the time in the Zelda games after a run). Why is James McCloud in F-Zero X? He loves flying Arwings, and an F-Zero Machine is a recreational alternative to the space battles that James enjoys. Why did Link dream about Chain Chomps, Shy Guys, and Pokeys? Because he was just in the Mushroom Kingdom earlier that day competing in a Mario Kart tournament. And how does Smash Brothers even begin to happen? Because Master Hand went to the far reaches of the gamingverse and put the best characters from the world of gaming for an epic smackdown of a fighting game.

That's your interpretation. You do know what a cameo is, right?

 

[Munomario777]

This is a brief summary of Ganondorf's role in the story: <snip>

Interesting. I think that being sealed away for that many years would count as a defeat in this discussion.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's really justifiable evidence. I think you're reading too much into it.

Headcanon is headcanon, though. If that's what you think is the case, well, mi amigo, more power to ya~

Well, I wouldn't call something like seeing Samus in Kirby's game and saying that they're the same universe because of this reading too much into things.

Well, if you're chosen, then you are granted something. In this case, Ganondorf received Din's blessing. I've played TP.

What does that blessing mean for Ganon, out of curiosity?

The lore, which comes from characters within the game, make this claim. A claim is not the same thing as fact, despite their sage status.

A claim can be proven as fact if there's evidence in-game to back it up, which there is in this case.

Well, that's not atomic disruption. Otherwise, a mere punch should harm Dark Samus.

So I take it that only certain weapons that cause atoms to be disrupted individually can harm Dark Samus? Either way, this doesn't really mean anything in this discussion as long as only holy weapons and such can harm Ganon.

Because they have their own respective universe. The Guardians of the Galaxy film is its own universe. It's Marvel, but it's not Earth 616, which is the mainstream continuity.

http://screenrant.com/guardians-of-the-galaxy-avengers-3-thanos-teamup/ "We’re definitely connected to Avengers 3." - James Gunn, Guardians of the Galaxy's writer and director.
In other words, GotG universe = Avengers universe.

Because the Mushroom Kingdom is ruled by Princess Peach. Without the kingdom, she'd just be Peach. Hyrule is more of a geographical region or continent, but my point was that Hyrule could not be understood as a kingdom if there was no royalty, since it was merely chaotic.

A position of authority doesn't exclude the possibility of chaos happening. Rebellion, "civil" war, and the like are still very possible sources of chaos while still maintaining a position of authority.

It doesn't matter either way. Gods in myths weren't omnipotent, they were just very powerful.

Yes, but the Greek gods didn't actually create the universe; it had always existed.

In a singularity, physics are inapplicable.

Who says that the gaming universe started in a singularity? We don't know much about the origin story, after all.

Indeed, because they were all created by Shigeru Miyamoto.

...And they all appear in games such as Mario Kart, Mario VS DK, Yoshi's Island, etc.

This question presupposes that the running man wanted to hide his identity in the first place. It's curious to me that his Bunny Hood is missing.

Again, he wants to blend in with the locals. He blended in fine back in the Zelda series, since he was a human (or whatever species Link and others may be). As for the Bunny Hood, that is interesting. That could be why he doesn't appear to be quite as fast as he was in the Zelda games.

That's an assumption. As for height, as one ages, he/she might shrink. This wouldn't happen in a matter of a few years, however. Six inches is a major change. I'm 5'11". My wife is 5'3". There's a noticeable difference.

So is assuming that Mario and Zelda take place in two different universes. Anyway, the running man didn't necessarily just move there; he's retired. He's probably been there for a while, and as people age, the regression becomes more and more noticeable.

I expected this, which I must this ask why his head is also dark by comparison, if he's wearing that silly mask to hide his identity?

Because he doesn't wear it 24/7? I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to get a tan on a place like Isle Delfino with a few beach-laying sessions.

We know that it's the same Peach because the rest of her appearance and size coincide. Besides, she's not a character making a cameo in her own series, so this is a false equivalence.

Fair enough, but the running man looks pretty similar here to his appearance in Zelda as well.

He was a postman in Majora's Mask, which is a parallel universe. It makes no sense for the postman to retire and head to a tropical island, otherwise, he could have gone off somewhere in the Great Bay. The postman and running man are two different people. We're going by the running man. The only reason why I mentioned the postman was to offer an alternative. In other words, in Zelda, the running man is some runner with a Grecian get-up. In Mario, he's a man who loves racing against Mario. Two different people in their own, respective universes who share similar traits.

Oh, okay. I'm not sure if Majora is an alternate universe, especially since it's listed in the official Zelda timeline. Isle Delfino has quite a bit more variety than the Great Bay, such as an amusement park, a hotel, a nice-sized town, and the like, so it's a bit more desirable than the Great Bay as far as vacation spots go.

It's canon that in Kirby's Dream Land 3, Kirby encountered Samus and the Metroids, but in the Metroidverse, it's not canon. That's all I mean.

As evidenced by?

Stephen LeBarge refers to these as forms. I had a dream before with Homer Simpson, but he was supposed to be my step-dad. Dreams bring about unrealistic things from reality.

The difference here is that you've actually seen Homer Simpson on television before. Link hasn't seen Chain Chomps before (unless, of course, Zelda and Mario's universes are one in the same).

I explained above. And perhaps, but you're now working with what developers decided to work with, yet you ignore this when it comes to cameos and instead think it means all Nintendo characters live in the same universe.

I'm not ignoring it; I'm excusing the developers making an oversight or making some changes to best fit the situation (again, it wouldn't be a very good idea to have a towering Samus Aran thank Kirby, or have giant Metroids for him to fight, as that would be rather strange).

I never said the manual says that. I said that the manual hints that they came from somewhere, but it doesn't state where. Pit doesn't mention Metroids by name, either. He's about to, but Viridi shuts him up. If you've played Kid Icarus: Uprising, you'd know that all the characters, not just Lady Palutena, break the fourth wall.

You know, Komaytos look an awful lot like little Metroids.

As for breaking the fourth wall, that is true, but just because the game has instances of that doesn't mean that this specific instance is, especially when there's additional evidence supporting the theory that this would also support.

All right, but that doesn't address anything about Octoman, and James McCloud doesn't look like a fox.

Octoman is rather self-explanatory; he's in F-Zero and Star Fox. As for James, fair point.

That's your interpretation. You do know what a cameo is, right?

Yes, I do:

cameo: (...) a small character part that stands out from the other minor parts.

Nothing about it being non-canon, really.

 

[Nerdicon]

VS
FIGHT!!!

Rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Sonic may use anything compiled in this post.
• Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc.
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's get right into this analysis! First up, Rosalina is on the offensive!
's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic's extreme speed and reflexes allow Sonic to easily avoid attacks like this.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.
's Counter: Sonic Speed!
Sonic has been shown to be proficient at dodging high-speed projectiles similar to this one, and the Star Bits don't do much damage anyway. In addition, the Lightning Shield can deflect small projectiles like these.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!
's Counter: Fire Shield/Sonic Speed!/Super Sonic Style!/Chaos Control
Sonic's Fire Shield allows him to ignore any heat-based attacks, including lava (and thus the red-hot surface of a star). As for the black hole, Sonic outran a black hole in Sonic Colors for quite a bit, and that only caught up to him because it was constantly expanding, which the black holes in Galaxy don't seem to do. Plus, even when he did get sucked in, he remained conscious. Alternatively, he could use his Super Sonic form to increase his speed, become invincible, and gain flight to easily escape, and Chaos Control allows him to teleport, which could also be used to escape. As for the healing Mushrooms, Sonic's attacks are so quick that Rosalina likely wouldn't have enough time to recover the damage dealt by Sonic.

Well, it seems like Rosalina doesn't have many options for landing hits on Sonic thanks to his Super Sonic form and such. However, we're only halfway through the analysis! Next up, Sonic's attacks.
's Attack: Sonic Speed!
Sonic can run at speeds beyond Mach 1 (or possibly Mach 10+), and can use this to his advantage. He can confuse opponents, outrun them, and apply this speed to his attacks to increase the damage.
's Counter: Shield
Rosalina has a protective shield that she can use to block virtually any attack.
's Counter Counter: Too Slow!/Chaos Control
Sonic's blazing speed (Mach 10+) would catch Rosalina off guard, and she wouldn't be fast enough to put her shield up in time. Plus, he can freeze time with Chaos Control, and possibly teleport inside her shield with Chaos Control. He could fit inside by shrinking via a magical gem inside of his shoe.

's Attack: Spin Jump
Sonic can utilize his natural ability to curl up into a ball when he jumps, damaging any opponent he comes in contact with.
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: Bounce Bracelet
This attack allows Sonic to bounce on the ground in ball form to gain height, as well as attack enemies.
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: Homing Attack
This midair attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and rocket towards opponents, homing into enemies (even moving ones).
's Counter: Luma Swarm
Since the Homing Attack automatically homes in on the nearest enemy, Rosalina could create Lumas near Sonic to draw his Homing Attack in that direction.

's Attack: Light Speed Attack
Sonic revs up similarly to a Spin Dash, but rather than dashing along the ground, Sonic gathers energy to home in on opponents in spinball form at light speed for a devastating blow.
's Counter: Luma Swarm
Since the Homing Attack automatically homes in on the nearest enemy, Rosalina could create Lumas near Sonic to draw his Homing Attack in that direction.
's Counter Counter: Auto Homing Chain
Since the Light Speed Attack has the unique property of targeting all enemies in the area in rapid succession, he would get to Rosalina quickly, especially since the attack moves at light speed.

's Attack: Blue Tornado/Sonic Wind
These two wind-based attacks can create a tornado to lift up enemies and their weapons and create blades of wind to attack opponents, respectively.
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: The Wisps
The Wisps are a race of alien power-ups that can grant Sonic different Color Powers. These include a bomb, a black hole, a laser, and more, and can be combined to form the Final Color Blaster, a super-powerful attack of rainbow epicness!
's Counter: N/A
Since Rosalina's shield can be penetrated easily by Sonic, she's out of luck here.

's Attack: Chaos Control!
Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds' power to teleport, freeze time, and more.
's Counter: N/A
Rosalina's reflexes aren't enough to react to instant teleportation, and she doesn't have any time-bending abilities of her own other than apparently not aging, so Sonic has a guaranteed hit here.

's Attack: Super Sonic Style!
Sonic's ultimate transformation (other than Hyper Sonic), this has Sonic harness the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic is faster, invincible, stronger, flying, and more, at the cost of one Ring per second. With a maximum of 999,999 Rings, Sonic can stay in this form for about eleven days. This is more than enough time for someone of Sonic's speed to finish a battle.
's Counter: ...
I got nothin'.

CONCLUSION: While Rosalina has the power of the cosmos at her command, Sonic's eleven day invincibility, blazing speed, and time and space manipulation are just too much for this Guardian of the Galaxy Cosmos.

WINNER:

That wraps up the Standard Bracket; now onto the Losers Bracket!

This analysis is part of the bracket

Minor complaints.
Rosalina doesn't necessarily have to throw up her shield on reaction, she could have it up constantly if she needed to. She could do that and Sonic would only be able to get one or two lucky hits.
Secondly, I was playing Galaxy 2 the other day (I really hate that spring Mario section in the Chompworks Galaxy) with a friend and I realized that Lumas con hold smaller enemies in place (like Sonic) and while that's a moot point given how fast Sonic is. But by manipulating his homing attack he could probably be stunned (Super or not)
Third, the only time Rosalina's had a health bar is in 3D World, where at normal height she could take 2 hits. I don't care how "impenetrable" that shield is, anyone can get 2 hits in.
Fourth, Sonic can't attack while he's small using the purple gem. And if he grew he'd run the risk of crushing himself against the wall or getting attacked, not to mention Rosalina could just make the shield smaller to give Sonic no room to attack
Fifth, Super and Hyper Sonic can still be crushed or be drowned, so if Rosalina did hold Sonic in place she could easily kill him no matter what form he was in.

tl;dr
I would've disagreed with you but looking more into both characters I agree. Because of the two hits Rosalina can take I actually think she's pretty weak. I can't wait till loser's bracket...

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I would've disagreed with you but looking more into both characters I agree. Because of the two hits Rosalina can take I actually think she's pretty weak. I can't wait till loser's bracket...

We aren't using health bars, otherwise would've won.

And the loser's bracket is going on now.

 

[Nerdicon]

We aren't using the two-hit system, otherwise would've won.

And the loser's bracket is going on now.

But characters here have the health system that most closely matches the one they had in their original games. By that logic Rosalina uses the standard Mario health system with power-ups. Sonic uses rings, Mario used power-ups (he could just get more of them), etc. There should not be an exception just because it makes the character weaker.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

But characters here have the health system that most closely matches the one they had in their original games. By that logic Rosalina uses the standard Mario health system with power-ups. Sonic uses rings, Mario used power-ups (he could just get more of them), etc. There should not be an exception just because it makes the character weaker.

None of the battles even mentioned a single thing about anyone's health system.

 

[Nerdicon]

None of the battles even mentioned a single thing about anyone's health system.

Like I said, Sonic and the rings or Mario and power-ups. It's usually not brought up because most characters have either a health bar or have numbered health.

 

[Munomario777]

Minor complaints.
Rosalina doesn't necessarily have to throw up her shield on reaction, she could have it up constantly if she needed to. She could do that and Sonic would only be able to get one or two lucky hits.

Very true, but Sonic has ways to counteract this (aside from the shrinking and such, he could also use his Blue Tornado, which removes enemy shields).

Secondly, I was playing Galaxy 2 the other day (I really hate that spring Mario section in the Chompworks Galaxy) with a friend and I realized that Lumas con hold smaller enemies in place (like Sonic) and while that's a moot point given how fast Sonic is. But by manipulating his homing attack he could probably be stunned (Super or not)

Yeah, that section is the worst. >.< If Sonic did get caught, he could still use the Chaos Emeralds to teleport out (they're controlled by thought, as shown in Unleashed's opening where he's being held in Eggman's grasp and he summons the Emeralds, allowing him to become Super; additionally, they're described as "translating thoughts into power"), so this shouldn't be an issue.

Third, the only time Rosalina's had a health bar is in 3D World, where at normal height she could take 2 hits. I don't care how "impenetrable" that shield is, anyone can get 2 hits in.

Well, I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to get past that shield. If a character does have a way of getting past it, though, then I do agree that Rosalina is quite vulnerable.

Fourth, Sonic can't attack while he's small using the purple gem. And if he grew he'd run the risk of crushing himself against the wall or getting attacked, not to mention Rosalina could just make the shield smaller to give Sonic no room to attack

Eh, I'd imagine he could. Either way, if he was in Super or Hyper form, simply touching Rosalina would damage her, since that's how it works in the Sonic games.

Fifth, Super and Hyper Sonic can still be crushed or be drowned, so if Rosalina did hold Sonic in place she could easily kill him no matter what form he was in.

Actually, Hyper Sonic is immune to drowning, and I don't see how Rosalina holding Sonic in place would cause him to be crushed; it only counts if it's between two moving walls or something of that nature.

tl;dr
I would've disagreed with you but looking more into both characters I agree. Because of the two hits Rosalina can take I actually think she's pretty weak. I can't wait till loser's bracket...

Yeah. The two hits mentality sort of goes with her appearance; being rather thin, she doesn't look like she would be that tough. By the way, the losers' bracket is already open, so anyone feel free to take up one of those matchups!

We aren't using health bars, otherwise would've won.

Actually, Kirby's health meter isn't anything too spectacular either (plus, in Galaxy, black holes are instant death), and Rosalina has that impenetrable shield and all, so I think Rosalina still wins.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Actually, Kirby's health meter isn't anything too spectacular either (plus, in Galaxy, black holes are instant death), and Rosalina has that impenetrable shield and all, so I think Rosalina still wins.

I would counter that, but the discussion's already over.

 

[Nerdicon]

I would counter that, but the discussion's already over.

Given the current competition, they'll probably meet in losers. I mean how many threats are there in loser's bracket? Not a whole lot.

 

[Nerdicon]

vs
Fight!!!
Rules have been stated before, haven't you been paying attention?
Attacker: Shulk

's attack: Basic Slashes
Just some normal attacks, nothin' to see here
's counter: Falchion's Seal
All direct non-dragon attacks are sealed by the falchion, meaning basic slashes and by extension most of Shulk's attacking options won't work
's counter x2: Monado Purge
A monado art that removes enemy auras, this should get rid of the Falchion's Seal so Shulk can make his move

's attack: Stream Edge
A wide ranged attack that inflicts Break on the target as well as filling the talent gauge (for more Monado Arts)
's counter: Uhhhh...
The wide range of the attack and the general range of the Monado ensures that Marth can't dodge the attack, and the aforementioned wide range and the general power of the Monado III would certainly allow Shulk to land the hit

's attack: Monado Cyclone
An ether attack that hits enemies all around Shulk. Inflicts Topple on enemies inflicted with break
's counter: What is this witchcraft?
Marth has absolutely no way of blocking or dodging this ether attack, and since he was inflicted with Break earlier, now he's toppled

Now a few options given that Marth can't move,

's attack: Disarm
While not an inherent ability of Shulk's, Marth is unable to attack or really do anything so snatching the Falchion would be a good call
's counter: Toppled
Marth can't retaliate because he's toppled

's attack: Back Slash
Since Marth really can't react to anything Shulk's doing right now, Shulk can get a free Back Slash from behind for massive damage
's counter: Toppled
Marth can't retaliate because he's toppled

's attack: Shaker Edge
Marth's probably about to get up by now, so hitting him with Shaker Edge will daze him leaving him open to more attacks!
's counter: Toppled
Marth can't retaliate because he's toppled

's attack: Monado Buster
A powerful long-ranged attack with the Monado
's counter: Dazed
Marth can't dodge because he's dazed

's attack: Air Slash
Inflicts break and inflicts slow if used on the side of an enemy. Shulk could easily position himself beside Marth for the slow effect
's counter: Dazed
Marth can't...Jeez I sound like a broken record at this point, You know what I'm going to say

's attack: Slit Edge
An attack that lowers the enemy's defense when striking on the side
's counter: Too Slow.
Since he was just slowed down by Air Slash, landing Slit Edge on the side should be a snap!

's attack: Monado Eater
A frontal attack that does damage and inflicts bleed (think poison in other RPGs)
's counter: Too Slow
Not only will this hit because Marth is too slow, but he takes more damage because his defense was lowered.


Although I think it's clear who won this battle (by a landslide) I guess I should do Marth's side of things for fairness

's attack: Slash! Slash! Slash!
Basic sword swings with his back-up rapier
's counter: I see it!
Shulk can see the future and therefore see exactly what Marth can do and block accordingly

's attack: Sol
An attack that allows Marth to heal half of the damage done to the enemy
's counter: I see it!
Shulk can counter the attack by seeing exactly what Marth is going to do. Since Marth technically isn't doing any damage he doesn't heal from it

's attack: Luna
Halves enemy defense and does damage
's counter: Vision + Monado Speed
Knowing exactly where Marth is going to attack would probably be enough to avoid the attack, but if not he could use Monado Speed to avoid the attack

's attack: Astra
A five hit combo attack, but each hit deals half damage
's counter: Vision + Monado Shield + Light Heal
Seeing exactly what Marth is going to do, Shulk could use Monado Shield to reduce the damage and then heal off the damage with light heal.

Summary
Yeah, Shulk wins. Without his immunity to direct attacks Marth's a joke compared to Shulk. Not to mention that Shulk could get a lot of free hits using moves that inflict topple and daze. And Shulk's visions assured that Marth would not be hitting him any time soon
Winner: Shulk!!!
Cue epic guitar riff from You Will Know Our Names.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Who's in the loser's bracket? BTW, whatever with Link for whatever bracket he was in? The only three characters who should be able to beat him are Sonic, Palutena, and Samus (the latter two are debatable, but Sonic's 11 day invincibility plus Super mode plus super speed means he definitely wins.)

vs

stuff
Summary
Palutena's Powers will overwhelm Ness. She has Powers of many types. She can use them to dodge/stop any of Ness' attacks, and can use their power to defeat him. The winner is Palutena.

Even though you have Palutena winning, which I agree with, I'd like to point out that, unless you're referring to something else, the earthbound wiki says his shield only stops 50% of the damage he receives and only deals some it back.

I also agree with Rosaluma over Kirby.

Also, some other Palutena abilities: a counter if attacked up close and medium range flash move that can blind opponents for 3 seconds.

As I recall, sacred or blessed weapons such as the Light Arrows will only wound or stun Ganondorf. He can only be truly defeated with the power of the Master Sword - and even then, it only seals him away, and he can never really die. He is defeated for good at the end of The Wind Waker, of course, when he is turned to stone by the Master Sword's power Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule wishes for the kingdom to be washed away - but in that instance, the power of the Goddesses is directly being used to defeat him. Any trace of Ganondorf is washed away after that, at least insofar as we know; the other games that take place in that timeline suggest that, centuries later, Ganondorf and Hyrule are just popular myths from ancient times.

Not true, in A Link to the Past and Zelda I he was slain (at least for those games) by the silver arrows and not the master sword. That's why we're just going with the assumption any character with a holy weapon can defeat ganondorf.

vs
Fight!!!
Rules have been stated before, haven't you been paying attention?
Attacker: Shulk

's attack: Basic Slashes
Just some normal attacks, nothin' to see here
's counter: Falchion's Seal
All direct non-dragon attacks are sealed by the falchion, meaning basic slashes and by extension most of Shulk's attacking options won't work
's counter x2: Monado Purge
A monado art that removes enemy auras, this should get rid of the Falchion's Seal so Shulk can make his move

's attack: Stream Edge
A wide ranged attack that inflicts Break on the target as well as filling the talent gauge (for more Monado Arts)
's counter: Uhhhh...
The wide range of the attack and the general range of the Monado ensures that Marth can't dodge the attack, and the aforementioned wide range and the general power of the Monado III would certainly allow Shulk to land the hit

's attack: Monado Cyclone
An ether attack that hits enemies all around Shulk. Inflicts Topple on enemies inflicted with break
's counter: What is this witchcraft?
Marth has absolutely no way of blocking or dodging this ether attack, and since he was inflicted with Break earlier, now he's toppled

Now a few options given that Marth can't move,

's attack: Disarm
While not an inherent ability of Shulk's, Marth is unable to attack or really do anything so snatching the Falchion would be a good call
's counter: Toppled
Marth can't retaliate because he's toppled

's attack: Back Slash
Since Marth really can't react to anything Shulk's doing right now, Shulk can get a free Back Slash from behind for massive damage
's counter: Toppled
Marth can't retaliate because he's toppled

's attack: Shaker Edge
Marth's probably about to get up by now, so hitting him with Shaker Edge will daze him leaving him open to more attacks!
's counter: Toppled
Marth can't retaliate because he's toppled

's attack: Monado Buster
A powerful long-ranged attack with the Monado
's counter: Dazed
Marth can't dodge because he's dazed

's attack: Air Slash
Inflicts break and inflicts slow if used on the side of an enemy. Shulk could easily position himself beside Marth for the slow effect
's counter: Dazed
Marth can't...Jeez I sound like a broken record at this point, You know what I'm going to say

's attack: Slit Edge
An attack that lowers the enemy's defense when striking on the side
's counter: Too Slow.
Since he was just slowed down by Air Slash, landing Slit Edge on the side should be a snap!

's attack: Monado Eater
A frontal attack that does damage and inflicts bleed (think poison in other RPGs)
's counter: Too Slow
Not only will this hit because Marth is too slow, but he takes more damage because his defense was lowered.


Although I think it's clear who won this battle (by a landslide) I guess I should do Marth's side of things for fairness

's attack: Slash! Slash! Slash!
Basic sword swings with his back-up rapier
's counter: I see it!
Shulk can see the future and therefore see exactly what Marth can do and block accordingly

's attack: Sol
An attack that allows Marth to heal half of the damage done to the enemy
's counter: I see it!
Shulk can counter the attack by seeing exactly what Marth is going to do. Since Marth technically isn't doing any damage he doesn't heal from it

's attack: Luna
Halves enemy defense and does damage
's counter: Vision + Monado Speed
Knowing exactly where Marth is going to attack would probably be enough to avoid the attack, but if not he could use Monado Speed to avoid the attack

's attack: Astra
A five hit combo attack, but each hit deals half damage
's counter: Vision + Monado Shield + Light Heal
Seeing exactly what Marth is going to do, Shulk could use Monado Shield to reduce the damage and then heal off the damage with light heal.

Summary
Yeah, Shulk wins. Without his immunity to direct attacks Marth's a joke compared to Shulk. Not to mention that Shulk could get a lot of free hits using moves that inflict topple and daze. And Shulk's visions assured that Marth would not be hitting him any time soon
Winner: Shulk!!!
Cue epic guitar riff from You Will Know Our Names.

This is probably a waste since @ Nerdicon has ignored my previous replies but regardless, it should be noted:

-Vision: Shulk doesn't see every attack coming, so though he could counter some of his moves that way, he'd realistically only see visions for any fatal or near fatal attacks Marth would deal.
-Monado buster, Speed, shield and Cyclone (his topple ability): All his monado arts have to recharged first. Cyclone and buster consume his entire monado gauge, meaning he'd need to hit Marth like 5 times with a non talent art before he could use another art.
Monado Shield cost 50% of the monado arts gauge. Monado speed and purge cost 75% of the gauge. In between those would be Marth's chance to attack.
-Purge's seal removal only lasts 14.5 seconds, so he's going to have to constantly refresh it so he can actually hurt Marth.

Ultimately I do agree Shulk wins though. For this, and any battle, Shulk should have the Haste 6 and Double Attack 6 gems equipped to let him use his normal attacks quicker to keep his Monado gauge filled.

 

[Munomario777]

Who's in the loser's bracket? BTW, whatever with Link for whatever bracket he was in? The only three characters who should be able to beat him are Sonic, Palutena, and Samus (the latter two are debatable, but Sonic's 11 day invincibility plus Super mode plus super speed means he definitely wins.)

The full tournament, including the losers' bracket, can be found here. Link is in the losers' bracket as it stands, and he was actually defeated by Samus, funnily enough.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think there are several besides that can beat Link. We'll see once vs is done.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Oh okay. But what page is the actual match-up on, because I'm not sure how anyone besides Rosaluma (black holes) and Super Sonic (11 day invincibility) get around Link's 3 day invincibility with chateau Romani + magic armor.

The full tournament, including the losers' bracket, can be found here. Link is in the losers' bracket as it stands, and he was actually defeated by Samus, funnily enough.

 

[Munomario777]

Oh okay. But what page is the actual match-up on, because I'm not sure how anyone besides Rosaluma (black holes) and Super Sonic (11 day invincibility) get around Link's 3 day invincibility with chateau Romani + magic armor.

Just click the character's face under the "X VS Y" to see the analysis for each matchup.

 

[Nerdicon]

-Vision: Shulk doesn't see every attack coming, so though he could counter some of his moves that way, he'd realistically only see visions for any fatal or near fatal attacks Marth would deal.
-Monado buster, Speed, shield and Cyclone (his topple ability): All his monado arts have to recharged first. Cyclone and buster consume his entire monado gauge, meaning he'd need to hit Marth like 5 times with a non talent art before he could use another art.
Monado Shield cost 50% of the monado arts gauge. Monado speed and purge cost 75% of the gauge. In between those would be Marth's chance to attack.
-Purge's seal removal only lasts 14.5 seconds, so he's going to have to constantly refresh it so he can actually hurt Marth.

Ultimately I do agree Shulk wins though. For this, and any battle, Shulk should have the Haste 6 and Double Attack 6 gems equipped to let him use his normal attacks quicker to keep his Monado gauge filled.

I'm aware of all of these points, for the first point I just kinda assumed that with the Monado III he'd just be able to see anything really worth avoiding anyway
Yes I know that the Talent Arts take time to use which is why I spaced them out a little, admittedly I placed Purge and Cyclone too close together.
Again, I know about the Talent Gauge thing, I figured if Shulk did Topple Marth he could take the Falchion and get rid of the nuisance.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'm aware of all of these points, for the first point I just kinda assumed that with the Monado III he'd just be able to see anything really worth avoiding anyway
Yes I know that the Talent Arts take time to use which is why I spaced them out a little, admittedly I placed Purge and Cyclone too close together.
Again, I know about the Talent Gauge thing, I figured if Shulk did Topple Marth he could take the Falchion and get rid of the nuisance.

Well I'd argue Marth can still attack because even if can take the Falchion away, Marth can carry up to 5 weapons with him but I don't think it changes the match-up so I digress.

EDIT:

Do letters on the bracket page mean the match-up is still undecided? If so I want to do Robin vs Meta Knight later this week (although be noted I'm NOT giving Galaxia the power to cut through anything since it's never happened in-game.)

 

[Nerdicon]

Very true, but Sonic has ways to counteract this (aside from the shrinking and such, he could also use his Blue Tornado, which removes enemy shields).

Actually, Kirby's health meter isn't anything too spectacular either (plus, in Galaxy, black holes are instant death), and Rosalina has that impenetrable shield and all, so I think Rosalina still wins.

That is a contradiction my dear sir!
One cannot simply have an impenetrable shield and have it be removed by a move. Either it's impenetrable or it's not.
Choose.
I also realized Rosalina could create a giant forcefield around Sonic (so she could catch him) and then immediately shrink it until it crushes him, granted he'd probably teleport away first

 

[Nerdicon]

Well I'd argue Marth can still attack because even if can take the Falchion away, Marth can carry up to 5 weapons with him but I don't think it changes the match-up so I digress.

EDIT:

Do letters on the bracket page mean the match-up is still undecided? If so I want to do Robin vs Meta Knight later this week (although be noted I'm NOT giving Galaxia the power to cut through anything since it's never happened in-game.)

Of course he can still attack, he just doesn't have the Falchion's seal
I guess you can do that one,

 

[Munomario777]

That is a contradiction my dear sir!
One cannot simply have an impenetrable shield and have it be removed by a move. Either it's impenetrable or it's not.
Choose.
I also realized Rosalina could create a giant forcefield around Sonic (so she could catch him) and then immediately shrink it until it crushes him, granted he'd probably teleport away first

Penetrating a shield and removing it are two different things. As for the force field, as I said earlier, it only counts if Sonic is being crushed between two moving walls or something of that nature. I'm not sure whether or not a force field counts as a wall, but as you said, Chaos Control can get him out of that situation anyways, and Sonic would probably speedblitz her before she could create the force field (I don't think she ever creates a giant one in Galaxy anyways).

Do letters on the bracket page mean the match-up is still undecided? If so I want to do Robin vs Meta Knight later this week (although be noted I'm NOT giving Galaxia the power to cut through anything since it's never happened in-game.)

Yes, they do. That matchup should be pretty interesting!

 

[Nerdicon]

Penetrating a shield and removing it are two different things. As for the force field, as I said earlier, it only counts if Sonic is being crushed between two moving walls or something of that nature. I'm not sure whether or not a force field counts as a wall, but as you said, Chaos Control can get him out of that situation anyways, and Sonic would probably speedblitz her before she could create the force field (I don't think she ever creates a giant one in Galaxy anyways).

Well if that's the logic you feel like losing certain abilities also have been proven to remove shields.
Why wouldn't she be able to make larger forcefields. It makes sense,

 

[Munomario777]

Well if that's the logic you feel like losing certain abilities also have been proven to remove shields.
Why wouldn't she be able to make larger forcefields. It makes sense,

I'm aware that other abilities have been shown to remove shields. In retrospect, since most of the shields Sonic removed in Heroes with that attack were regular shields (i.e. Link's shield) rather than force fields, so it remains uncertain. Sonic still has the shrinking ability and such anyway.
Because she never does it in the games.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Unless something changed in the x amount of pages I was gone, we agreed we'd use composite Link and Twilight Princess Link since we didn't reach an agreement, and Drynn's match-up was Samus vs TP Link.
Quick match-up:

Composite Link (who'll I refer to as C-Link from now on) has the Magic Cape, which grants him intangibility and invisibility, which he'll have access to for 3 days. Combined with his mirror shield, which would reflect her beams, and hylian shield, which would stop speed boost (albiet it would likely knock him down or back), missiles, and missile beam combo attacks. C-Link's defense > Samus offense, and by a good bit.

As for his approach, he has strong long range magic ( upgraded fire and ice rod, his 3 medallions), all of which (except I believe the ice rod) also are AOE attacks since Samus will be attack from a distance and moving to quick to with a bow or boomerang, both of which she'd normally just shoot down anyway. He also can approach quickly with the pegasus boots, which while slower than Speed Booster, could catch her running regularly.
C-Link's offense has slight edge over Samus's defense.

Thoughts?

 

[Munomario777]

Unless something changed in the x amount of pages I was gone, we agreed we'd use composite Link and Twilight Princess Link since we didn't reach an agreement, and Drynn's match-up was Samus vs TP Link.
Quick match-up:

Composite Link (who'll I refer to as C-Link from now on) has the Magic Cape, which grants him intangibility and invisibility, which he'll have access to for 3 days. Combined with his mirror shield, which would reflect her beams, and hylian shield, which would stop speed boost (albiet it would likely knock him down or back), missiles, and missile beam combo attacks. C-Link's defense > Samus offense, and by a good bit.

As for his approach, he has strong long range magic ( upgraded fire and ice rod, his 3 medallions), all of which (except I believe the ice rod) also are AOE attacks since Samus will be attack from a distance and moving to quick to with a bow or boomerang, both of which she'd normally just shoot down anyway. He also can approach quickly with the pegasus boots, which while slower than Speed Booster, could catch her running regularly.
C-Link's offense has slight edge over Samus's defense.

Thoughts?

True, but at this point the bracket is so far along that revising a matchup, especially one in the starting round, would take quite a bit of work. If you're willing to do those matchups, though, then I'll edit the bracket accordingly. It's not too big of a deal either way, since Link is still in the tournament via the losers' bracket.

 

[Antonykun]

That is all

 

[Nerdicon]

I'm aware that other abilities have been shown to remove shields. In retrospect, since most of the shields Sonic removed in Heroes with that attack were regular shields (i.e. Link's shield) rather than force fields, so it remains uncertain. Sonic still has the shrinking ability and such anyway.
Because she never does it in the games.

Well she can clearly make her shields smaller, as she can make one around her or Mario. So she could easily shrink the shield so Sonic couldn't teleport in. Though this all doesn't matter because Sonic could get two hits way before Rosalina could put up her shield. As a matter of fact star bits don't move that fast, so her reaction time shouldn't be fantastic.
Basically, Rosalina can only be harmed at the very beginning of the match and by anything that would reasonably pierce the shield. (Light and Sound really). Light would pierce the shield just because the shield is transparent and therefore any electromagnetic wave should technically be able to pierce the shield (Samus' Wave Beam, Laser Ability, Laser Staff, etc). If you disagree I feel this conforms to the unsaid hierarchy of discussion (in-game lore >/= gameplay > alternate canon > real world logic) given that there is no in-game evidence to disprove my claim, I feel real-world logic should be used.

 

[Munomario777]

Well she can clearly make her shields smaller, as she can make one around her or Mario. So she could easily shrink the shield so Sonic couldn't teleport in. Though this all doesn't matter because Sonic could get two hits way before Rosalina could put up her shield. As a matter of fact star bits don't move that fast, so her reaction time shouldn't be fantastic.

Well, it does seem like a pretty tight fit as it is:

I agree with the rest, though.

Basically, Rosalina can only be harmed at the very beginning of the match and by anything that would reasonably pierce the shield. (Light and Sound really). Light would pierce the shield just because the shield is transparent and therefore any electromagnetic wave should technically be able to pierce the shield (Samus' Wave Beam, Laser Ability, Laser Staff, etc). If you disagree I feel this conforms to the unsaid hierarchy of discussion (in-game lore >/= gameplay > alternate canon > real world logic) given that there is no in-game evidence to disprove my claim, I feel real-world logic should be used.

Very true.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

True, but at this point the bracket is so far along that revising a matchup, especially one in the starting round, would take quite a bit of work. If you're willing to do those matchups, though, then I'll edit the bracket accordingly. It's not too big of a deal either way, since Link is still in the tournament via the losers' bracket.

No, it's ok since it wouldn't have changed anything (at least the way it was seeded) since he would have lost to Sonic. If he had been seeded elsewhere he would have lasted longer (except for maybe Rosaluma) but since it wouldn't change the final result, it's fine as is. However for the loser's bracket I think we should use C-Link since he's all around stronger than TP Link.

Anyway, time for a match-up: vs

Rules: Stated multiple times in previous posts. Just scroll up.

Meta Knight Notes:
-Since summoning allies is forbidden, his ally call is not allowed, meaning he can't replenish his Galaxia bar. So I'm starting him off with the full 50 points (the most he can have in Super Star Ultra) which means he has room for one Max Mach Tornado (30 points) and combination of 2 (total) uses of either Heal or Meta quick.
-He has 3 moves that are all called Mach Tornado, so to differentiate them, I'll call the strongest Max Mach Tornado (AOE attack that covers whole screen. Take 7 seconds from start to finish), Mach Tornado Gust (plants sword in ground and sends a slow Tornado long as the screen at foe. Start up lag of 3 seconds and ending lag of 2 seconds) and Moving Mach Tornado (the one he uses in Smash Bros but moves quicker, goes farther, and controls much better.)
-the Kirby Wiki says MK's max flying speed here is 16.4 mph (doubled when he uses meta speed).

Robin Notes: I'm using him in his Sorcerer class, not his Grand Master one from Smash Bros. This means no Levin Sword.
His 5 skills:
1) Sol (recover 50% of damage dealt. At max level that means he, when wielding Aversa's Night/Nosferatu, will get at least 50% of damage every attack and will get 100% of damage dealt every other attack.)
2) Vantage- basically works like a spidey sense except instead of helping him dodge it gives him opportunity to hit first.
3) Armsthrift- At max stats, means his weapons durability will essentially never fade.
4) Counter- all melee/adjacent attacks that don't kill Robin automatically return equal damage. Any fighter with limited or no projectile is in trouble
5) Limit Breaker- Boosts all stats caps up by 10. Might seem trivial but it's not. It's the difference between Sol activating every other attack (literally for the sake of this battle) and every 3 to 4 strikes.

With that out of the way, lets start:

offense vs Robin defense

's attack: stab, thrust, swipe
i.e. basic sword swings. Only special note is that MK swings his blade fast

's counter: Counter or block/dodge
As MK's swipes are basic sword moves, he should be able to block/dodge at least some despite MK's quick strikes. Since MK's only 8 inches tall and can attack much quicker on ground than air, dodging would be preferably since bending over and blocking would be hard. However for any sword attacks he can't block/dodge, Robin's counter skill automatically deals any non-fatal damage received from an adjacent attack back at MK.

's Moving Mach Tornado
Spins in a circle, causing damage to anything he touches.

's counter: Counter or block/dodge
Since Moving Mach Tornado still requires MK to get close, counter will deal any damage dealt right back at him.

's Dimensional cape slash:
teleports where ever he wants and slashes. Short range only but quick.

's counter: Counter
Do I need to repeat myself.

's Electric shock
Not sure what this move is actually called (any idea @ Nerdicon or @ Kirby Dragons ?From squeak Squad) but He plants his sword in ground deals electrical damage to anyone who gets within like a foot of him.
's Counter: Counter or dodge
see above

's Max Mach Tornado
Envelopes himself in a mach tornado that covers whole screen and attacks both ways. Takes like 7 seconds to execute from start to finish, but he physically disappears for the last 5. Two second start up lag, covers area of roughly 2.5 feet around him in all directions.
's Counter: Dodge
With a 2 second start up lag, he should be able to out run it. If not, he's out of luck. Despite the move being based off crash it's not a OHKO on bosses (only takes off roughly 1/8th of Galacta Knights health).

's Mach Tornado Gust
Holds sword in air for 3 seconds, then let's loose a tornado about 3.5 times his height (about 2 feet and 4 inches) that goes for whole screen. Estimate it travels about 5 feet 4 inches. Can't move for 2 seconds afterwards
's counter: side step
Since it's never been shown in a full blown 3-d game, who knows how wide it really is, but with a 3 second start up Robin has ample time to get out of way. Even better, MK's immobile for 5 whole seconds so Robin can hit MK with Aversa's Night, which heals HP AND is his strongest move.

's Fire ball
Swords burns and shoots a fire ball. Can travel full length of screen judging from videos, so let's say it goes 5'4''.

's Counter: dodge or magic
This attack moves slow enough that even Robin can outrun it, though side stepping would be smarter. Could also shoot it down with magic.

's Sword beam
self-explanatory. Only works for single sword strikes. Think the sword beam for Zelda. In other words, he can't spam these by swinging blade fast as he can. Only travel like 3 feet. Does not work in air. (FYI He does have a spammable version that lasts like 2 seconds, but requires him to be up close.)
's counter: magic or dodge
assuming MK's not up close, which he's unlikely to be given Robin's counter skill, he could fire an anima (fire, ice, wind, lightning) spell to stop it, but he's really better dodging since MK can fire these a little quicker than Robin can cast magic.

's Crescent Sword Beam (from Kirby Super Star)
Not sure if this was just an early version of his sword beam, but I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that it's different since this one is green, shaped like a crescent moon, can be aimed diagonally, and can be used in mid-air. However like his other sword beam, it can't be spammed at fast rate.
's counter: Magic or dodge
Same defense as for other sword beam.

Well, as you can see Robin's counter forces MK to stay back and rely on 5 ranged moves, one of which is one time only, the second which has massive start and ending lag, a 3rd which goes to slow to be of much use. Leaves him with only 2 reliable attacks.
Short story: Robin wins defensively and by good margin.

's offense vs 's defense

Sol + any non dark magic spell:
Recovers HP equal to about half of damage deal, but only activates every other attack.
's counter: Dodge
As Robin's using exclusively magic, blocking won't help so MK has to try to out run Robin's attack.

's Aversa's Night
A dark magic spell that is just over twice as strong as nosferatu, and takes recovers HP equal to about half of damage dealt.
's counter: glide away
As Robin's using exclusively magic, blocking won't help so MK has to try to out fly Robin's attack.

Aversa's Night + Sol
The vampire effects of this spell and the skill stack, recovering Robin's HP for 100% of the damage he inflicts on MK.

Ceclia's Gale
Wind magic that fires off 2 consecutive attacks. Summons a mini tornado a few feet wide from under foe (2 times).

's counter: Glide away
's Counter counter: Wind magic bonus
Special Note: If Robin hits MK while he's flying, wing jumping (to differentiate from MK jumping without his wings) or gliding with any wind attacks, he will deal double the normal damage. This means MK needs to run from any wind magic, but easier said than done since he can fly quicker than he runs.
's Counter counter counter: Meta quick
Doubles his running speed so he can avoid Robin's ceclia gale. The double boost in speed gives him enough to out run even ceclia gale but uses up his only use of Meta quick.

Ceclia's Gale again
's counter: Try to run
Since he can't fly and used up meta quick, he has to out run the attack. But hes only 8 inches tall, the tornado is several feet long, strikes in less than a second... so avoiding it will be tough, let alone on foot. So MK goes for his second counter
's second counter: quick teleport
Won't travel far enough to escape full force of tornadoes.

Waste
Summons a purple cloud around foe that explodes with dark energy. Hits 2 consecutive times.
's counter: run/glide
MK can try to outrun or fly it, but same problems as above apply, albeit without the bonus from the wind magic.
's second counter: long range teleport
The distance of this is not known, but it doesn't travel that fast, and more importantly you can see him while he's using this form of teleportation, so it's just a matter of aiming right or waiting till he inevitably lands.

Valflame
Summons a giant ball of exploding fire
's counter: ?
He can't out run or fly it quick enough, the short range teleport lacks the range and the long run is too slow and leaves him vulnerable upon landing if he does escape in time.

Victor: Robin tips the scales and defeats . Robin's counter skill limits MK to 2 reliable attacks offensively. On the other end, Robin's spells are too quick and too large (relative to MK's size) to dodge, and using wind magic forces MK to think twice before flying away, which is his better retreat option. Robin primarily relies on Aversa's Night though, since it deals the most damage AND heals Robin's HP. The wind spells are just to keep MK from flying, and Valflame is a AOE attack (even relative to his other spells) if MK gets happy feet.
As Robin would say: Checkmate.

Up next: Robin's going to need a heck of a strategy to deal with Mega Man's gazillion projectiles. Although I don't know if I'll do that one since I have a lackluster Mega Man knowledge.

 

[Nerdicon]

No, it's ok since it wouldn't have changed anything (at least the way it was seeded) since he would have lost to Sonic. If he had been seeded elsewhere he would have lasted longer (except for maybe Rosaluma) but since it wouldn't change the final result, it's fine as is. However for the loser's bracket I think we should use C-Link since he's all around stronger than TP Link.

Anyway, time for a match-up: vs

Rules: Stated multiple times in previous posts. Just scroll up.

Meta Knight Notes:
-Since summoning allies is forbidden, his ally call is not allowed, meaning he can't replenish his Galaxia bar. So I'm starting him off with the full 50 points (the most he can have in Super Star Ultra) which means he has room for one Max Mach Tornado (30 points) and combination of 2 (total) uses of either Heal or Meta quick.
-He has 3 moves that are all called Mach Tornado, so to differentiate them, I'll call the strongest Max Mach Tornado (AOE attack that covers whole screen. Take 7 seconds from start to finish), Mach Tornado Gust (plants sword in ground and sends a slow Tornado long as the screen at foe. Start up lag of 3 seconds and ending lag of 2 seconds) and Moving Mach Tornado (the one he uses in Smash Bros but moves quicker, goes farther, and controls much better.)
-the Kirby Wiki says MK's max flying speed here is 16.4 mph (doubled when he uses meta speed).

Robin Notes: I'm using him in his Sorcerer class, not his Grand Master one from Smash Bros. This means no Levin Sword.
His 5 skills:
1) Sol (recover 50% of damage dealt. At max level that means he, when wielding Aversa's Night/Nosferatu, will get at least 50% of damage every attack and will get 100% of damage dealt every other attack.)
2) Vantage- basically works like a spidey sense except instead of helping him dodge it gives him opportunity to hit first.
3) Armsthrift- At max stats, means his weapons durability will essentially never fade.
4) Counter- all melee/adjacent attacks that don't kill Robin automatically return equal damage. Any fighter with limited or no projectile is in trouble
5) Limit Breaker- Boosts all stats caps up by 10. Might seem trivial but it's not. It's the difference between Sol activating every other attack (literally for the sake of this battle) and every 3 to 4 strikes.

With that out of the way, lets start:

offense vs Robin defense

's attack: stab, thrust, swipe
i.e. basic sword swings. Only special note is that MK swings his blade fast

's counter: Counter or block/dodge
As MK's swipes are basic sword moves, he should be able to block/dodge at least some despite MK's quick strikes. Since MK's only 8 inches tall and can attack much quicker on ground than air, dodging would be preferably since bending over and blocking would be hard. However for any sword attacks he can't block/dodge, Robin's counter skill automatically deals any non-fatal damage received from an adjacent attack back at MK.

's Moving Mach Tornado
Spins in a circle, causing damage to anything he touches.

's counter: Counter or block/dodge
Since Moving Mach Tornado still requires MK to get close, counter will deal any damage dealt right back at him.

's Dimensional cape slash:
teleports where ever he wants and slashes. Short range only but quick.

's counter: Counter
Do I need to repeat myself.

's Electric shock
Not sure what this move is actually called (any idea @ Nerdicon or @ Kirby Dragons ?From squeak Squad) but He plants his sword in ground deals electrical damage to anyone who gets within like a foot of him.
's Counter: Counter or dodge
see above

's Max Mach Tornado
Envelopes himself in a mach tornado that covers whole screen and attacks both ways. Takes like 7 seconds to execute from start to finish, but he physically disappears for the last 5. Two second start up lag, covers area of roughly 2.5 feet around him in all directions.
's Counter: Dodge
With a 2 second start up lag, he should be able to out run it. If not, he's out of luck. Despite the move being based off crash it's not a OHKO on bosses (only takes off roughly 1/8th of Galacta Knights health).

's Mach Tornado Gust
Holds sword in air for 3 seconds, then let's loose a tornado about 3.5 times his height (about 2 feet and 4 inches) that goes for whole screen. Estimate it travels about 5 feet 4 inches. Can't move for 2 seconds afterwards
's counter: side step
Since it's never been shown in a full blown 3-d game, who knows how wide it really is, but with a 3 second start up Robin has ample time to get out of way. Even better, MK's immobile for 5 whole seconds so Robin can hit MK with Aversa's Night, which heals HP AND is his strongest move.

's Fire ball
Swords burns and shoots a fire ball. Can travel full length of screen judging from videos, so let's say it goes 5'4''.

's Counter: dodge or magic
This attack moves slow enough that even Robin can outrun it, though side stepping would be smarter. Could also shoot it down with magic.

's Sword beam
self-explanatory. Only works for single sword strikes. Think the sword beam for Zelda. In other words, he can't spam these by swinging blade fast as he can. Only travel like 3 feet. Does not work in air. (FYI He does have a spammable version that lasts like 2 seconds, but requires him to be up close.)
's counter: magic or dodge
assuming MK's not up close, which he's unlikely to be given Robin's counter skill, he could fire an anima (fire, ice, wind, lightning) spell to stop it, but he's really better dodging since MK can fire these a little quicker than Robin can cast magic.

's Crescent Sword Beam (from Kirby Super Star)
Not sure if this was just an early version of his sword beam, but I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that it's different since this one is green, shaped like a crescent moon, can be aimed diagonally, and can be used in mid-air. However like his other sword beam, it can't be spammed at fast rate.
's counter: Magic or dodge
Same defense as for other sword beam.

Well, as you can see Robin's counter forces MK to stay back and rely on 5 ranged moves, one of which is one time only, the second which has massive start and ending lag, a 3rd which goes to slow to be of much use. Leaves him with only 2 reliable attacks.
Short story: Robin wins defensively and by good margin.

's offense vs 's defense

Sol + any non dark magic spell:
Recovers HP equal to about half of damage deal, but only activates every other attack.
's counter: Dodge
As Robin's using exclusively magic, blocking won't help so MK has to try to out run Robin's attack.

's Aversa's Night
A dark magic spell that is just over twice as strong as nosferatu, and takes recovers HP equal to about half of damage dealt.
's counter: glide away
As Robin's using exclusively magic, blocking won't help so MK has to try to out fly Robin's attack.

Aversa's Night + Sol
The vampire effects of this spell and the skill stack, recovering Robin's HP for 100% of the damage he inflicts on MK.

Ceclia's Gale
Wind magic that fires off 2 consecutive attacks. Summons a mini tornado a few feet wide from under foe (2 times).

's counter: Glide away
's Counter counter: Wind magic bonus
Special Note: If Robin hits MK while he's flying, wing jumping (to differentiate from MK jumping without his wings) or gliding with any wind attacks, he will deal double the normal damage. This means MK needs to run from any wind magic, but easier said than done since he can fly quicker than he runs.
's Counter counter counter: Meta quick
Doubles his running speed so he can avoid Robin's ceclia gale. The double boost in speed gives him enough to out run even ceclia gale but uses up his only use of Meta quick.

Ceclia's Gale again
's counter: Try to run
Since he can't fly and used up meta quick, he has to out run the attack. But hes only 8 inches tall, the tornado is several feet long, strikes in less than a second... so avoiding it will be tough, let alone on foot. So MK goes for his second counter
's second counter: quick teleport
Won't travel far enough to escape full force of tornadoes.

Waste
Summons a purple cloud around foe that explodes with dark energy. Hits 2 consecutive times.
's counter: run/glide
MK can try to outrun or fly it, but same problems as above apply, albeit without the bonus from the wind magic.
's second counter: long range teleport
The distance of this is not known, but it doesn't travel that fast, and more importantly you can see him while he's using this form of teleportation, so it's just a matter of aiming right or waiting till he inevitably lands.

Valflame
Summons a giant ball of exploding fire
's counter: ?
He can't out run or fly it quick enough, the short range teleport lacks the range and the long run is too slow and leaves him vulnerable upon landing if he does escape in time.

Victor: Robin tips the scales and defeats . Robin's counter skill limits MK to 2 reliable attacks offensively. On the other end, Robin's spells are too quick and too large (relative to MK's size) to dodge, and using wind magic forces MK to think twice before flying away, which is his better retreat option. Robin primarily relies on Aversa's Night though, since it deals the most damage AND heals Robin's HP. The wind spells are just to keep MK from flying, and Valflame is a AOE attack (even relative to his other spells) if MK gets happy feet.
As Robin would say: Checkmate.

Up next: Robin's going to need a heck of a strategy to deal with Mega Man's gazillion projectiles. Although I don't know if I'll do that one since I have a lackluster Mega Man knowledge.

Eh. There is no slow or fast teleport, he just throws the cape over himself and vanishes. It should be noted that you never actually see MK teleport to an area, always away. Hmmm.
Anyway, there's no rule that says that MK can't block magic. In his boss fights when he blocked he was invincible and in KSSU he was nearly invincible (certain attacks did minor damage). Nothing would actually pierce the barrier other than chameleo arm's swallow attack and still lava. Robin doesn't have anything like that so MK could block his attacks. Still, with lack of knowledge on how MK's teleport works, I have to agree

 

[Nerdicon]

By the way, I feel that in light of recent events vs as well as all of 's matches need to be revisited.
(Thread dead is thread)

 

[Munomario777]

By the way, I feel that in light of recent events vs as well as all of 's matches need to be revisited.
(Thread dead is thread)

As has been pointed out before, Link's loss didn't really have too much of an impact in the grand scheme of things, since he would have lost to Sonic anyways. Why do you think we should revisit Rosalina's matchups?
(What's a thread dead? )