Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

Key words being "at rest/defeated." If Rosalina was already defeated, the battle would be over, and if Luma was defeated, he would simply pop out of existence (since we don't see one being killed in Galaxy AFAIK, I'm using Smash as a basis here). It's not that Hypernova Kirby can't inhale flying enemies; he just can't inhale while airborne (even though the animation still happens), and this would allow Rosalina and Luma to fly above the vortex.

You can't use Smash as an argument for anything here, so they might not pop out of existence. It doesn't matter though, the purpose of Kirby inhaling the Lumas is too defeat them.

Kirby can't inhale while airborne, but he can tilt his head back to inhale things up in the air. Hypernova Kirby tilted his head back to inhale Queen Sectonia's blast, which was high in the air (are we really discussing how Kirby can move his head?)

 

[Munomario777]

You can't use Smash as an argument for anything here, so they might not pop out of existence. It doesn't matter though, the purpose of Kirby inhaling the Lumas is too defeat them.

So what does happen when a Luma is defeated, then? For all we know, they may as well be invincible, since we don't see them being harmed (in fact, they're immune to Mario's attacks like Rosalina is, but without a force field, so the Lumas may actually be invincible, or at least a lot tougher than they seem). Since Smash is the only game where we see a Luma being defeated, we can use it as a reference point for what happens when a Luma is defeated. Anyway, if the point of Kirby inhaling the Luma is to defeat it, then he might as well not bother, since he can't inhale enemies of that size unless they're already defeated, which defeats the purpose.

Kirby can't inhale while airborne, but he can tilt his head back to inhale things up in the air. Hypernova Kirby tilted his head back to inhale Queen Sectonia's blast, which was high in the air (are we really discussing how Kirby can move his head?)

Lumas can fly high enough to escape Hypernova's range, which isn't really that large considering Kirby's size.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, I see. Still, the "Magical" in the name implies that it has the same magical powers as the Master Sword, making it able to defeat Ganon, which Samus's beams don't have.

You're conflating the two when there's no reason to. If the understanding of the power beam is correct, in that it's a particle beam, then this can be an issue for Ganondorf. The idea comes from a scan concerning Dark Samus during Samus' second battle against her, which says,

"Bioscans suggest that Dark Samus can reform her body short of total atomic disruption."

At first glance, that may not seem like much. However, particle beams damage targets by disrupting its atomic structure. To be sure, the power beam isn't as powerful as the rest of Samus' weapons, though the charge beam boosts up the damage tenfold (if we're to use Metroid Prime 3: Corruption's cut-scene portrayal versus game play).

Just because Ganon hasn't been attacked by everything ever doesn't mean that it's false that he can only be harmed by specific things. For the sake of this discussion not going around in circles like this, I think we should go with the theory that every game takes place in one universe so that these sorts of arguments don't go on this long. In that case, the statement in Zelda lore includes all weapons from all series, and we can end the discussion here. Regardless of how Samus fares against Ganon, she's still in the tournament via the losers' bracket anyway.

Every game doesn't take place in one universe, though. Even if it did, how does that address anything I said about the peoples' ignorance in Zelda?

Light arrows, made of light and therefore moving at the speed thereof. He doesn't bother to dodge regular arrows because they have no effect on him. Also, if Ganon teleported to dodge every attack, the fight would be impossible, making this a case of gameplay-story segregation.

Light arrows are simply arrows enchanted with light magic. They don't travel at the speed of light, although, it is worth noting that in my replay of Majora's Mask, light arrows will make those sun-shaped faces activate, meaning light arrows must possess solar energy.

If you can prove that Ganon can be hurt by Samus's weapons, I'll change my stance. For now, though, I'm staying on Ganon's side.

It's not for me to prove, as it's not my burden. You're extrapolating a few instances where Ganondorf wasn't harmed. I'm pointing out how extrapolation leads to errors.

 

[Goolloom]

On VS thing going on, both seem pretty even, Kirby's got variety with many abilities and Rosalina's got the Lumas and magic to spare. I'm more conviced that Rosalina would have the upper hand on the situation considering the fact the arena they fight in is only ''a ten-mile-wide square'', so any celestial body Rosalina would create with the Lumas would fill up the whole thing and Kirby would be left with no options to get away. The smallest stars we know are known as Red dwarves that have relatively low temperatures that go to 4000K and are about 200 000 Km. And if that isn't enough Rosalina can top it all off with a supermassive black hole that would cover up the whole arena too. The one at the center of the Milky Way has about 4 million times the mass of our Sun. I assume Rosalina's Luma would be able to recreate those in the Mario universe.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

So it's 2v2 now.

Early in this video, Kirby's inhale was able to reach Dedede and Escargoon, who were a distance away. They would've been sucked in if they hadn't been holding on to the chair. And both of them are much bigger than Kirbs.

So yeah, Kirby can inhale the Lumas. Not if they fly though.

Hey, you guys know that SSB item that comes in three parts? Not Daybreak, the other one?
(8:06) Kirby rides it at 124 MPH.

Before any of this even happens, Kirby could speedblitz. Rosie can't react to this at all.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

If we use proper scale, though, that makes the Dragoon a measly 10 inches long compared to Rosalina's 10-11 foot or so height, so it'd be about as effective as shooting Godzilla with bullets.

And the anime isn't game canon, either; there's too many discrepancies for both to be in the same canon (Kirby being a legendary warrior and Dedede buyin' monstas from Nightmare tah clobbah dat dere Kirbeh); at best, the anime's a alternate universe to the games. Going by game canon, Kirby doesn't have some manner of super inhale ability.
And the Dragoon, going by Smash canon, can also miss horrifically; so saying Kirby could OHKO Rosalina with the Dragoon is like saying that Marth 100% lands his Final Smash; possible, but highly unlikely.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If we use proper scale, though, that makes the Dragoon a measly 10 inches long compared to Rosalina's 10-11 foot or so height, so it'd be about as effective as shooting Godzilla with bullets.

And the anime isn't game canon, either; there's too many discrepancies for both to be in the same canon (Kirby being a legendary warrior and Dedede buyin' monstas from Nightmare tah clobbah dat dere Kirbeh); at best, the anime's a alternate universe to the games. Going by game canon, Kirby doesn't have some manner of super inhale ability.
And the Dragoon, going by Smash canon, can also miss horrifically; so saying Kirby could OHKO Rosalina with the Dragoon is like saying that Marth 100% lands his Final Smash; possible, but highly unlikely.

Even if it misses or doesn't do much damage, Kirby can still get close enough to take the wand away and depower her. And we are taking the anime as canon. Smash is not canon, and we can't use it at all. If we are using it, this means the Warp Star is FTL.

About the black hole thing, the holes that the Lumas turn into don't suck in light. If they did, we wouldn't be able to see them.

 

[Munomario777]

You're conflating the two when there's no reason to. If the understanding of the power beam is correct, in that it's a particle beam, then this can be an issue for Ganondorf. The idea comes from a scan concerning Dark Samus during Samus' second battle against her, which says,

"Bioscans suggest that Dark Samus can reform her body short of total atomic disruption."

At first glance, that may not seem like much. However, particle beams damage targets by disrupting its atomic structure. To be sure, the power beam isn't as powerful as the rest of Samus' weapons, though the charge beam boosts up the damage tenfold (if we're to use Metroid Prime 3: Corruption's cut-scene portrayal versus game play).

There is a reason to conclude that the Magical Sword and the Master Sword have similar properties. They're the only two swords that can defeat Ganon, they're both bestowed with holy/magical power that allows them to do this, and they're both very powerful weapons. As for the beams, doesn't any weapon disrupt someone's atoms? For instance, if someone shoots a hole through your chest, the atoms that make up your chest have moved to make a gaping hole, or have been disrupted. Swords, arrows, etc. also do this, yet Ganon is immune to them.

Every game doesn't take place in one universe, though. Even if it did, how does that address anything I said about the peoples' ignorance in Zelda?

^ Then how does all of that stuff happen? Not every game has a crossover/cameo in another, of course, but there are tons of them that do, and they make up this intricately connected web of crossovers, cameos, and guest appearances to create a huge gaming universe where any crossover is possible. (There's also a series on that same channel called Crossover which goes more in-depth on the subject if you're interested.) What this means for Samus VS Ganon is that since the Seven Sages are assumed to have some sort of godly connection (Zelda, their leader, has the Triforce of Wisdom, which was created by the gods; plus, they sealed Ganon, which requires some sort of godly power) and gods are all-knowing and omnipresent, and since Metroid and Zelda are in one universe (Link and Samus both appear in Super Mario RPG in the same hotel), then the gods of the Zelda universe would know about Samus's weapons, and thus they would be taken into account for the statement about Ganon's immunity to non-holy weapons.

Light arrows are simply arrows enchanted with light magic. They don't travel at the speed of light, although, it is worth noting that in my replay of Majora's Mask, light arrows will make those sun-shaped faces activate, meaning light arrows must possess solar energy.

Fair enough, but they still do move pretty quickly.

It's not for me to prove, as it's not my burden. You're extrapolating a few instances where Ganondorf wasn't harmed. I'm pointing out how extrapolation leads to errors.

It is for you to prove, since that's the side of the argument you're on. If you're not going to try to prove your statements, then I'm just going to drop out of the argument.

So it's 2v2 now.

Early in this video, Kirby's inhale was able to reach Dedede and Escargoon, who were a distance away. They would've been sucked in if they hadn't been holding on to the chair. And both of them are much bigger than Kirbs.

So yeah, Kirby can inhale the Lumas. Not if they fly though.

That would be anime footage. It was agreed a while back that if the anime and the games contradict each other, then the games take precedence. In the games, Kirby's Inhale is only a short distance in front of him, and the Hypernova has certain limitations (not copying abilities, not inhaling in midair, etc.). In the anime, well, you see the video. Contradiction. The games take precedence, so we treat the Inhale as it happens in the games.

Hey, you guys know that SSB item that comes in three parts? Not Daybreak, the other one?
(8:06) Kirby rides it at 124 MPH.

Before any of this even happens, Kirby could speedblitz. Rosie can't react to this at all.

If you notice, in the menu before the race starts, the Dragoon has eight speed patches from City Trial (think Smash Run with its stat boosts and all), which we won't be taking into account here. According to the Kirby Wiki, "[o]n the ground, [the Dragoon's] top speed is roughly 37 km/h [~23 mph]," but it "can maintain an airspeed of roughly 60 km/h [~37 mph] without patches." For a point of reference, the Warp Star in that game reaches a top speed of 15.5 miles per hour. While the Dragoon is still rather fast, it isn't as fast as the video shows it to be. Also noteworthy is that air rides cannot glide without launching off a ramp or something similar, and hovering above the ground counts as being on the ground.

Even if it misses or doesn't do much damage, Kirby can still get close enough to take the wand away and depower her. And we are taking the anime as canon. Smash is not canon, and we can't use it at all. If we are using it, this means the Warp Star is FTL.

Agreed, except for the anime thing (but I already discussed this above).

About the black hole thing, the holes that the Lumas turn into don't suck in light. If they did, we wouldn't be able to see them.

Then why is it black? Black is the absence of light, after all. The reason we can't see black holes in space in real life is because they're black, and space is black, so they blend in. In Galaxy, the backdrop changes (there are often blue skies and such), so they stand out a bit more.

 

[Munomario777]

Anyway, in the interest of moving the bracket along...
VS
FIGHT!

First off, some ground rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick and infinitely high solid steel walls; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Mega Man used a one-time-use shield weapon to protect against one of Pit's attacks, he could simply attack again after the shield's ammo ran out and Mega Man would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time). However, if the character with the limited-use technique would be able to defeat the opponent before this became an issue, then it is allowed.
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Mega Man may switch between weapons whenever he wants, and can do so instantly, but can only use one at a time. He can dual-wield with both arms using the same weapon, however.
• Pit gets all of his weapons from KI: Uprising, and can switch between them at will; however, he will not get the Powers, since those are granted to him by Palutena, but he will be allowed to fly for a little bit (not for the five minutes Palutena's Power of Flight grants, however).
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the rules out of the way, let's dive into this matchup! First up, Mega Man is on the offensive!
's Attack: Mega Buster
The Mega Buster allows Mega Man to fire compressed solar energy from his arm cannons, and can be charged. Mega Man remains mobile while charging, and since it's solar powered, it never runs out of ammo.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars
The Guardian Orbitars form two shields around Pit to protect him from any attack, and Pit can wield another weapon while using them.

's Attack: Atomic Fire
The Atomic Fire weapon shoots fireballs at enemies, and can be charged to increase the range and damage. Fully charged, this weapon is a force to be reckoned with. The attack uses 1/28 of the ammo when uncharged, 1/4 partially charged, and 1/2 fully charged.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars
The Guardian Orbitars form two shields around Pit to protect him from any attack, and Pit can wield another weapon while using them.

's Attack: Homing Sniper
The Homing Sniper has Mega Man fire a homing missile to attack opponents. Can be charged to fire multiple missiles, and uses up 1/48 of the weapon's ammo.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars/Staff
The Guardian Orbitars form two shields around Pit to protect him from any attack, and Pit can wield another weapon while using them. In addition, Pit has an equivalent to the Homing Sniper in the form of his Staffs, which fire from a long range.

's Attack: Quick Boomerang
Mega Man fires a couple of boomerangs that have high speed but short range, and can hit on both the departure and the return trip. Uses up 1/224 of the weapon's ammo, so Mega Man can use this as much as he wants.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars
Since Pit has two shields with the Guardian Orbitars, he is protected from the return trip as well as the initial hit. In addition, the boomerangs have short range.

's Attack: Flame Shower
Mega Man fires a continuous flame forward, and remains mobile while firing. Uses up 1/32 of the weapon's ammo per second.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars
You get the idea.

's Counter: Rebound Striker
Mega Man throws a rubber ball, which bounces off of surfaces up to five times, gaining power each bounce. Uses up 1/14 of the weapon's ammo.
's Counter: Club
The Orbitars might not work, since the ball bounces around unpredictably and Pit only has two shields to work with. However, his large Clubs could be used as baseball bats to bounce the ball back at Mega Man, or at least away from Pit.

's Attack: Crash Bomber
Mega Man shoots a sticky bomb forward, sticking to surfaces and opponents. The bomb explodes on Mega Man's command, and the explosion cannot damage Mega Man. Can penetrate shields (or at least ones made of leaves), but takes up 1/7 of the weapon's ammo, so Mega Man must use the few uses he has wisely.
's Counter: Bow
Since the Crash Bomber penetrates shields, the Orbitars are out of the question. However, with their guided homing shots, Pit's Bows could be used to shoot the bombs, causing them to explode prematurely.

's Attack: Tornado Hold
Mega Man fires a fan, which creates a gust of wind upwards upon hitting the ground. This tornado can trap enemies, but won't deal damage. Uses up 1/25 of the weapon's ammo.
's Counter: Brawler Gloves
The tornado might whisk away Pit's Guardian Orbitars, so they're not a safe option. However, the Brawler Gloves increase Pit's speed drastically, and this could be used to dodge the attack.

's Attack: Black Hole Bomb
Mega Man fires a ball of purple energy that turns into a black hole, sucking in enemies for an instant kill. If the enemy is to heavy or large to be sucked in, they will be dealt a good amount of damage. Also sucks in shields and projectiles, but uses up 1/7 of the weapon's ammo.
's Counter: Brawler Gloves/Club
Since the Black Hole Bomb sucks in shields, the Guardian Orbitars are out of the question. However, Pit has a couple of ways to deal with this. Firstly, the aforementioned Brawler Gloves can increase Pit's speed, and since this attack moves rather slowly and is quite small (unlike in Smash), Pit could easily get out of the way. Alternatively, Pit could don his heaviest weapons, the Clubs, to become too heavy for the Black Hole Bomb to suck him in.

So far, it seems like Pit has a bit of an upper hand here. However, can he keep it up when he goes on the offensive? Let's see:

's Attack: Bow
Pit's preferred weapon type, the Bow allows Pit to fire guided shots to home in on enemies; this allows Pit to easily hit moving targets from a safe distance. Notable Bow variants include:

• The Fortune Bow is a rather basic Bow, but has an added perk of getting more powerful the longer the arrow travels (shared with most Bows).
• The Meteor Bow harnesses the power of comets to create three heat-seeking arrows, making it hard to avoid. The charge shot is very strong, harnessing the power of a meteor strike, but this Bow has subpar homing capabilities. However, this Bow has the longest range.
• The Divine Bow is made from the wood of a sacred tree, and harnesses its fearsome power to give the benefits of stopping enemy fire, great homing abilities, and a quick charge time.
• The Crystal Bow fires gems as projectiles, with high attack power but extremely short range.
• The Hawkeye Bow shoots high-speed, long-range, projectile-eating shots, but suffers from a lack of melee capabilities and a long charge time.
• The Sagittarius Bow is one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons, and has a piercing effect to hit multiple foes at once, as well as swift arrows and decent damage; however, it has a rather long charge time.
• The Palutena Bow is Pit's signature weapon. Most effective when used while dashing.
• Finally, the Phosphora Bow is crafted from Phosphora's scarf, giving it lightning capabilities. The charged shots are a force to be reckoned with, with their great homing and speed; however, the rapid-fire shots have no homing properties, and the bow lacks power in general. That said, it still possesses a paralyzing effect to enemies it hits, and makes Pit faster while he's using the weapon.

Naturally, due to how these are all separate weapons, these effects cannot be stacked onto a single arrow, so Pit must choose carefully to best suit the situation at hand.
's Counter: Jewel Satellite
Mega Man gains four jewels, which orbit him and can reflect projectiles. Uses up 1/7 of the weapon's ammo.
's Counter Counter: Limited Use
The Jewel Satellite, like all of Mega Man's weapons, only has so many uses, and Pit's weapons have unlimited uses.

's Attack: Arm
This weapon type has Pit don a large weapon covering his entire hand and arm, with great melee and ranged attack power via blunt force, but this weapon type somewhat lacks in range and is quite slow. Like Pit's other weapons, there are many variants:

• The Crusher Arm is the basic Arm, which resembles a hammer but has a cannon inside to shoot metallic bolts at enemies.
• The Compact Arm is lighter than other Arms and increases Pit's movement speed, but is lacking in attack power.
• The Electroshock Arm shoots electric projectiles, which increase in size over time and can paralyze opponents. The melee attacks also knock foes back far distances.
• The Volcano Arm is equipped with a miniature volcano (!), and can burn opponents but has a short range and long charge time, making it good for close range.
• The Drill Arm has a massive drill on the end, but is not designed for melee attacks; instead, the drill fires off to home in on opponents and deal chip damage and scary knockback.
• The Bowl Arm charges very quickly and homes in on enemies well, but the power is lacking. Shots from this roll along the ground rather than travelling through the air.
• The Taurus Arm is one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons, and has the best melee attacks out of any Arm as well as good ranged attacks. However, the ranged attacks lack range and homing ability.
• The Upperdash Arm has weak regular melee attacks, but the dashing attack is quite powerful. The charge attack sends foes flying into the air.
• Finally, the Phoenix Arm has the unusual property of its rapid fire having better range than its charge shot. This Arm also has a burning effect.

's Counter: Time Stopper
The Arms are rather slow, so he could dodge them with the Time Stopper. The Time Stopper stops time for a bit, but only has one use, and Mega Man cannot attack while using it.
's Counter Counter: One Use
Time Stopper can only be used once.

's Attack: Blade
The most basic weapon type, Blades are sword-like weapons with balanced abilities making them easy to use. Notable Blades include:

• The First Blade is a balanced weapon, having decent melee and ranged attacks. However, it lacks particular strengths, and is obsolete when other Blades are available.
• The Burst Blade fires multiple rotating charged shots, making it good at cancelling shots and giving it some leeway when it comes to aiming. However, it is rather weak and has a short range.
• The Viper Blade can poison enemies, but is best at close range due to the fact that the projectiles lose power the farther they travel.
• The Samurai Blade is great for melee attacks and grants Pit extra speed, but the projectiles are weaker and the charge time is lengthier.
• The Bullet Blade resembles a machine gun, with powerful ranged attacks that don't lose damage over a distance but subpar homing and melee abilities.
• The Aquarius Blade is one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons, and can freeze opponents with the melee attacks. The projectiles can bounce off of surfaces, making it effective in closed areas.
• Finally, the Palutena Blade can nullify projectiles, has good speed, and great range, but lacks in power.

's Counter: N/A
Since Mega Man's defenses are limited-use, he has trouble defending against Pit's weapons for extended periods of time.

's Attack: Staff
Staffs are weapons with magical properties, great for sniping but lacking in close combat. The projectiles lack homing properties, so Pit's aim must be spot-on, and Pit is slower when holding one. Notable Staffs include:

• The Insight Staff is the basic Staff, with no special attributes besides those all Staffs share.
• The Rose Staff charges quickly and fires zigzagging projectiles. However, these move quite slowly, limiting their usefulness.
• The Ancient Staff's projectiles expand as they travel and form a stationary barrier when they reach their maximum range, and can also paralyze opponents; however, Pit is at his slowest when holding this.
• The Lancer Staff has homing capabilities and quick charge time at the cost of long-distance power and lacks effectiveness when uncharged.
• Finally, the Scorpio Staff is one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons; its range is somewhat short, but Pit's speed is increased while holding it and the shots have a poison effect.

's Counter: N/A
Since Mega Man's defenses are limited-use, he has trouble defending against Pit's weapons for extended periods of time.

's Attack: Claws
This weapon type takes the form of clawed gloves covering the user's hands. These have great combo potential and are very swift, but lack severely in range. Notable Claws include:

• The Tiger Claws are the basic Claws, with no special attributes other than striking with the swiftness and precision of a tiger.
• The Wolf Claws are set on fire and can burn opponents, as well as firing guided shots (unusual for Claws).
• The Brawler Claws don't actually have claws, instead resembling two clenched fists, and are among Pit's fastest weapons, boosting his speed more than any other weapon and attacking swiftly. However, they have a short range, even for Claws.
• The Stealth Claws are very sneaky, attacking silently and firing invisible projectiles; however, the melee attacks are lacking.
• The Hedgehog Claws have three long spikes and attack quickly while boosting the user's speed; however, they lack in damage.
• Finally, the Cancer Claws are one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons and has a rapid-fire attack that increases the user's running speed while it is being used.

's Counter: Keeping Distance
Since the Claws are very limited in range, Mega Man could keep away from Pit and use his projectiles to deal damage.

's Attack: Club
This weapon type is one of the strongest in Pit's arsenal, but at a cost of slower attacks and movement. Excels at close range, but is lacking at long range due to the lack of rapid-fire attacks. The projectiles can pass through walls. Notable Clubs include:

• The Ore Club is the basic Club, made of raw ore from the Mountain of the Gods. Can launch shockwaves when struck on the ground, as well as tornadoes which can hit multiple foes.
• The Babel Club resembles a towering mountain with clouds circling it. Can create shockwaves of dust, and the projectiles have irregular paths with potential to deal multiple hits to one opponent. However, it takes an extremely long time to charge, longer than any other of Pit's weapons!
• The Atlas Club has better homing capabilities than other Clubs and doesn't slow the user down, but cannot pass through walls.
• The Earthmaul Club has the longest range of all Pit's weapons, with its projectiles travelling over 400 feet, and they can also bounce off of walls.
• The Halo Club's projectiles are more effective at long range and can paralyze opponents, as well as being quicker with its attacks. However, this small size also makes it a weaker melee weapon.
• The Black Club can unleash a tower of spinning gears that homes in on opponents or a giant metal ball.
• Finally, the Capricorn Club is one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons and fires fast projectiles with a fast charge time. However, these lack range, lose power as they travel, and won't cancel foes' shots.

's Counter: N/A
Since Mega Man's defenses are limited-use, he has trouble defending against Pit's weapons for extended periods of time.

's Attack: Orbitars
This weapon type is not held by Pit; instead, it is a pair of weapons floating around Pit to perform different functions, and also leaving him open to use another weapon in addition to the Orbitars (this isn't shown in-game, but I'll add it because logic). Most shots grow stronger as they travel, making them excellent for attacking from a distance. Notable Orbitars include:

• The Standard Orbitars are basic, as the name implies, and resemble blue crystal balls. They share all of the attributes mentioned above with the other Orbitars.
• The Guardian Orbitars can create large shield-shaped barriers of energy to block attacks, but lack in attack power due to their defensive nature.
• The Shock Orbitars can fire homing projectiles with a paralyzing effect, but lack in range.
• The Fairy Orbitars can confuse hit opponents, and have a quick charge time.
• The Paw Pad Orbitars have projectiles that bounce along the ground.
• The Boom Orbitars fire cannonballs that can bounce off of surfaces and have the strongest attack power out of the Orbitars. However, they won't home in on enemies, and repeated usage slows Pit down.
• Finally, the Gemini Orbitars are one of the twelve Zodiac Weapons, and swerve towards the target after going straight for a second.

's Counter: N/A
The Orbitars just add another layer of offense for Mega Man to get hit by, or a layer of defense for Mega Man's attacks to be blocked by.

's Attack: Three Sacred Treasures/Great Sacred Treasure
While the Three Sacred Treasures are very powerful as-is (have you seen his Final Smash?!), they pale in comparison to Pit's ultimate weapon, which is the Great Sacred Treasure! This is more of a towering mech than a weapon, and it has multiple forms for different purposes. However, the only one Pit would really need in the fight is the Standard Form. This form is the most powerful, able to release massive explosions, homing lasers, flaming shots, electric shots, water, whirlwinds, large balls of fire or electricity, shots that hover and pull enemies towards it, a charged mega-laser beam attack and more. It can teleport and ram into opponents, and has an even more powerful attack which takes five seconds to charge up, but then unleashes a devastating beam of energy for a one-hit KO on nearly any enemy.
's Counter: ...
I got nothin'.

CONCLUSION:
While both Pit and Mega Man have great variety, Mega Man's limited uses on all of his attacks mean that it's just a matter of time before Pit's unlimited arsenal overpowers Mega Man.

WINNER:

That marks the end of Round 2 of the main bracket, and the start of Round 3!

This analysis is part of the bracket

 

[Goolloom]

My answers are in Bold

So it's 2v2 now.

Early in this video, Kirby's inhale was able to reach Dedede and Escargoon, who were a distance away. They would've been sucked in if they hadn't been holding on to the chair. And both of them are much bigger than Kirbs.
So yeah, Kirby can inhale the Lumas. Not if they fly though.
-Even if he could inhale a Luma, (the anime isn't a solid source according to other people) there would be too many to inhale them all at once anyway and he would be simply outnumbered. Only one Luma has to turn into a star (or any other celestial body) and he can't do much.

Hey, you guys know that SSB item that comes in three parts? Not Daybreak, the other one?
(8:06) Kirby rides it at 124 MPH. (Even if Munomario777 stated that it isn't that fast in the game anyways i'm going to keep those numbers to do the math)
-124 MPH is roughly 200 Kph (about 55 meters per second), and that speed is nothing compared to many other bodies moving in space like meteors or comets. It only looks like they move slower because of their size. So here the speed won't be the factor that'll disallow Rosalina to slow down or stop Kirby.

Before any of this even happens, Kirby could speedblitz. Rosie can't react to this at all.
-It's not that fast though, at 55 meters per second from ten miles away (16093.4 meters) Kirby would make it from one end of the room to the other in roughy 5 minutes if my math isn't completely off. So even if they start from 5 miles to each other, Rosalina still has 2 full minutes to move away

 

[Yong Dekonk]

So who's canonically the weakest character? Peach maybe? Rob?

 

[Munomario777]

So who's canonically the weakest character? Peach maybe? Rob?

Olimar. He's as small as a coin.

 

[Crystanium]

There is a reason to conclude that the Magical Sword and the Master Sword have similar properties. They're the only two swords that can defeat Ganon, they're both bestowed with holy/magical power that allows them to do this, and they're both very powerful weapons. As for the beams, doesn't any weapon disrupt someone's atoms? For instance, if someone shoots a hole through your chest, the atoms that make up your chest have moved to make a gaping hole, or have been disrupted. Swords, arrows, etc. also do this, yet Ganon is immune to them.

Or it could just be that powerful magic is effective against Ganondorf. His own magic stuns him.

If I'm understanding "atomic disruption", it's actually disrupting the atoms themselves. Molecular disruption also fits in this category. A molecule is made up of two or more atoms. So molecular disruption would disrupt the atoms that are chemically bound. In the case of sharp objects, think of it like this. A shirt interwoven together will be affected by a sharp object like a pin because the interwoven threads are being spread apart from each other, but the atoms that make up these threads are not being spread apart.

^ Then how does all of that stuff happen? Not every game has a crossover/cameo in another, of course, but there are tons of them that do, and they make up this intricately connected web of crossovers, cameos, and guest appearances to create a huge gaming universe where any crossover is possible. (There's also a series on that same channel called Crossover which goes more in-depth on the subject if you're interested.) What this means for Samus VS Ganon is that since the Seven Sages are assumed to have some sort of godly connection (Zelda, their leader, has the Triforce of Wisdom, which was created by the gods; plus, they sealed Ganon, which requires some sort of godly power) and gods are all-knowing and omnipresent, and since Metroid and Zelda are in one universe (Link and Samus both appear in Super Mario RPG in the same hotel), then the gods of the Zelda universe would know about Samus's weapons, and thus they would be taken into account for the statement about Ganon's immunity to non-holy weapons.

Cameos and crossovers are not canon. Samus making her appearance in Kirby's Dream Land 3, or even a statue of her or Mario, or even her in Super Mario RPG, or Tetris doesn't mean she's in these universes. Not canonically, anyway. Here are some issues as well. The goddesses are known for making Hyrule in the Zeldaverse. Hyrule is the name of chaos, which the goddesses fashioned, according to the way the Deku Tree describes it. In the Pokeverse, Arceus was the one who created the Universe. Some think Rosalina is behind the act of the creation of the Universe in the Marioverse. These all contradict one another, especially since in these universes, the gods actually exist. It's not a simple matter of belief like reality. There are even Bryonnian gods in the Metroidverse, though they weren't added into the game.

Fair enough, but they still do move pretty quickly.

It is for you to prove, since that's the side of the argument you're on. If you're not going to try to prove your statements, then I'm just going to drop out of the argument.[/quote]

I don't need to prove anything because I didn't make the claim that Ganondorf cannot die by anything other than the power that repels evil. I pointed out why this thinking is dubious.

 

[Munomario777]

Or it could just be that powerful magic is effective against Ganondorf. His own magic stuns him.

That's pretty much what I just said... Magic granted by the gods counts as "powerful magic." As a side note, Ganondorf's own magic is also on a godly level, thanks to the Triforce of Power.

If I'm understanding "atomic disruption", it's actually disrupting the atoms themselves. Molecular disruption also fits in this category. A molecule is made up of two or more atoms. So molecular disruption would disrupt the atoms that are chemically bound. In the case of sharp objects, think of it like this. A shirt interwoven together will be affected by a sharp object like a pin because the interwoven threads are being spread apart from each other, but the atoms that make up these threads are not being spread apart.

A disruption is a "disturbance or problem that interrupts an event, activity, or process." I'd say putting a bullet through someone's chest counts as a problem, and making a hole counts as an event, activity, or process. Also, the atoms are being split apart from each other, but not just on a sub-thread level; the threads are made up of atoms, so each thread is a lot of atoms. By separating the threads, a lot of atoms (a thread) are being separated from another lot of atoms (another thread).

Cameos and crossovers are not canon. Samus making her appearance in Kirby's Dream Land 3, or even a statue of her or Mario, or even her in Super Mario RPG, or Tetris doesn't mean she's in these universes. Not canonically, anyway. Here are some issues as well. The goddesses are known for making Hyrule in the Zeldaverse. Hyrule is the name of chaos, which the goddesses fashioned, according to the way the Deku Tree describes it. In the Pokeverse, Arceus was the one who created the Universe. Some think Rosalina is behind the act of the creation of the Universe in the Marioverse. These all contradict one another, especially since in these universes, the gods actually exist. It's not a simple matter of belief like reality. There are even Bryonnian gods in the Metroidverse, though they weren't added into the game.

Kirby's Dream Land 3 is canon. The ice stage is canon. Therefore, since Samus, Metroids, etc. are in that stage, they are canonically linked. There's no denying that Samus is there, giving Kirby a collectible. As for the gods making the world stuff, there's nothing saying that there couldn't be multiple gods/goddesses, all of whom created the gaming universe as whole (or, alternatively, they each created one gaming world/galaxy/group of galaxies inside the bigger universe). Greek mythology does this very thing, with multiple gods, goddesses, and other divine beings (as do Kid Icarus, Zelda, and other gaming franchises). If you can provide sufficient proof that there isn't one big gaming universe, then I will change my stance. Otherwise, I'll just move on.

I don't need to prove anything because I didn't make the claim that Ganondorf cannot die by anything other than the power that repels evil. I pointed out why this thinking is dubious.

Again, if you won't prove your claims, I will ignore them and move on. The whole point of an argument/debate is to prove things as right or wrong, and if you won't do that, then I will drop out and move on with the bracket.

 

[Nerdicon]

Because it seems I need to explain my points in excruciating detail, I will.
A black hole destroys things because the gravity near the singularity is so strong. If something were to make it into the event horizon it would be pulled apart by the erratic gravity. Therefore if something were invincible upon entering the black hole it couldn't be harmed by it.
Secondly, I've said that if Kirby were to copy one of the Lumas or Rosalina he would be able to gain their ability. I feel that Kirby should be able to take other's abilities simply because that's his main power. And yes he should gain the properties of the enemy as well as the abilities of the enemy. UFO, Cupid, Ninja, and Ghost are examples of gaining properties from the enemy as well as attacks. This gives him an immunity to gravity like I said, but it can be argued if the Luma would also give the resistance to heat. Now I'm sure you'll say that if the Luma doesn't give resistance to heat then Kirby's toast right? Well in Squeak Squad and Milky Way Wishes Kirby could store abilities and use them whenever, and he gained the ability instantly. He could also store Invincibility Candies this way. So if he did get hit by the star's heat (which unlike the blast created when a large body is created, he can't block) he would be able to nearly instantly switch to Metal, Double Stone, or Invincibility Candy + Wheel/Hypernova. If Hypernova was used he would be able to suck up the plasma that the star is composed of, not all of it but enough so he wouldn't get burned again.
Kirby can use bubble to store some Luma ability for later just in case he needs it by weakening a Luma first then defeating it with bubble.
Third, any Air Ride machines I feel should have maximum patches in each stat, which is why I said wheel moves as quick as it does. It's in the same vein as giving Sonic an absurd amount of rings: it's something that's technically possible but would take a lot of effort/luck to actually acquire. Not to mention that Wheel plus Magic Paintbrush is still a thing. With max glide, the wheel does high jumps, meaning that it could conserve the paint use by only using the paint for ramps.
Fourth, anything Kirby can use on the ground, he can use in the air on the Warp Star, so chasing Rosalina on the warp star while using Hypernova would get over the whole no Hypernova in mid-air. And the Warp Star is fast no matter how you slice it given how it travels through SPACE to other planets the size of earth in seconds. And if the point is refuted, the mechanized warp star from Kirby Air Ride can move at 200 kilometers per hour with max speed.
No for the points I disagree with:

• Rosalina should not be immune to the brute force of an explosion, if that were the case Rosalina wins this entire tournament on the grounds that she's immune to heat energy and blunt force
• The rule of the arena being infinitely high needs to change because characters can escape anything if they can fly faster than the other character, for example Kirby on the warp star being able to fly up to escape Rosalina and her black holes
• Rosalina's teleport isn't instant, as a matter of fact it's quite slow so she wouldn't be able to just teleport away from an attack. Not to mention her fastest method of flying is by Red Star, or Launch Stars which have predetermined paths
• Lumas can't just turn into some things, they need extra matter (star bits) so if Rosalina really wants to convert a Luma she needs to fill it up with star bits. This goes both ways though, if Rosalina doesn't need to fill the Lumas up first then neither does Kirby.
• Rosalina can't avoid something like crash or magic (meta knight choice) from hitting her due to the time stop before hand. Crash just seems to be a blast of energy which could be traveling at light speed. Same for most of the super abilities,
• Rosalina can't augment gravity by placing a planetoid under the arena because a Luma ready to transform would have to be there already. And the Lumas can't pass through solid objects

If I feel I'm missing something I will argue
If someone can refute all my points I'll swallow my pride and we can move on (I think my Kirby fanboy-ism is shining through a little too much at this point)

 

[Nerdicon]

So who's canonically the weakest character? Peach maybe? Rob?

R.O.B. canonically is a plastic toy, he's obviously the weakest

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Because it seems I need to explain my points in excruciating detail, I will.
A black hole destroys things because the gravity near the singularity is so strong. If something were to make it into the event horizon it would be pulled apart by the erratic gravity. Therefore if something were invincible upon entering the black hole it couldn't be harmed by it.
Secondly, I've said that if Kirby were to copy one of the Lumas or Rosalina he would be able to gain their ability. I feel that Kirby should be able to take other's abilities simply because that's his main power. And yes he should gain the properties of the enemy as well as the abilities of the enemy. UFO, Cupid, Ninja, and Ghost are examples of gaining properties from the enemy as well as attacks. This gives him an immunity to gravity like I said, but it can be argued if the Luma would also give the resistance to heat. Now I'm sure you'll say that if the Luma doesn't give resistance to heat then Kirby's toast right? Well in Squeak Squad and Milky Way Wishes Kirby could store abilities and use them whenever, and he gained the ability instantly. He could also store Invincibility Candies this way. So if he did get hit by the star's heat (which unlike the blast created when a large body is created, he can't block) he would be able to nearly instantly switch to Metal, Double Stone, or Invincibility Candy + Wheel/Hypernova. If Hypernova was used he would be able to suck up the plasma that the star is composed of, not all of it but enough so he wouldn't get burned again.
Kirby can use bubble to store some Luma ability for later just in case he needs it by weakening a Luma first then defeating it with bubble.
Third, any Air Ride machines I feel should have maximum patches in each stat, which is why I said wheel moves as quick as it does. It's in the same vein as giving Sonic an absurd amount of rings: it's something that's technically possible but would take a lot of effort/luck to actually acquire. Not to mention that Wheel plus Magic Paintbrush is still a thing. With max glide, the wheel does high jumps, meaning that it could conserve the paint use by only using the paint for ramps.
Fourth, anything Kirby can use on the ground, he can use in the air on the Warp Star, so chasing Rosalina on the warp star while using Hypernova would get over the whole no Hypernova in mid-air. And the Warp Star is fast no matter how you slice it given how it travels through SPACE to other planets the size of earth in seconds. And if the point is refuted, the mechanized warp star from Kirby Air Ride can move at 200 kilometers per hour with max speed.
No for the points I disagree with:

• Rosalina should not be immune to the brute force of an explosion, if that were the case Rosalina wins this entire tournament on the grounds that she's immune to heat energy and blunt force
• The rule of the arena being infinitely high needs to change because characters can escape anything if they can fly faster than the other character, for example Kirby on the warp star being able to fly up to escape Rosalina and her black holes
• Rosalina's teleport isn't instant, as a matter of fact it's quite slow so she wouldn't be able to just teleport away from an attack. Not to mention her fastest method of flying is by Red Star, or Launch Stars which have predetermined paths
• Lumas can't just turn into some things, they need extra matter (star bits) so if Rosalina really wants to convert a Luma she needs to fill it up with star bits. This goes both ways though, if Rosalina doesn't need to fill the Lumas up first then neither does Kirby.
• Rosalina can't avoid something like crash or magic (meta knight choice) from hitting her due to the time stop before hand. Crash just seems to be a blast of energy which could be traveling at light speed. Same for most of the super abilities,
• Rosalina can't augment gravity by placing a planetoid under the arena because a Luma ready to transform would have to be there already. And the Lumas can't pass through solid objects

If I feel I'm missing something I will argue
If someone can refute all my points I'll swallow my pride and we can move on (I think my Kirby fanboy-ism is shining through a little too much at this point)

I was actually just gonna give Rosa the victory because we needed to move on, but since you continued...

Mike Kirby would be able to defeat Rosalina. Sound travels at 761 MPH, Rosalina can't react to this. Even if she could, the forcefield wouldn't block it. It's like a wall, and can't shut off loud noises. Mike works three times, and could be used to destroy the first wave of Lumas as well as hitting Rosa, and then the other two times hit her and she's done.

And if Kirby possesses a Luma, the space mother is done for. She won't attack a Luma, nor will she order her Lumas to attack a Luma. She has never displayed the ability to be immune to stars. In fact, she has displayed that she isn't. If she was, she wouldn't need to deflect the Star Bits you shot at her. So Kirby becomes a star and hits Rosie. Her forcefield can't block it.

I agree with vs .

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Wheel Kirby destroys Robin because Robin doesn't have access to any spikes (Swords don't count). So Robin literally can't win because Kirby is invincible. There's also Mirror Kirby who can create a near endless army of Mirror Kirbies which by the way has an invincible block that reflects projectiles, a giant blade for cutting, and a short ranged projectile. Also Hypernova could completely strip Robin of all his weapons.

I don't think wheel kirby would be that hard to dodge, even for some like Robin, but the mirror Kirby thing is a good point. And I don't recall Kirby ever sucking anyone's weapon off of them in game so I'm going to disregard that point. But I do think between Wheel and Mirror that Kirby could outstall him. I guess I'd put Kirby over him too.

Anyways, I should probably bring up that Robin can't use all his skills in one class, and that he has to switch around using a seal.

I've never claimed he could or tried to give him more than 5 at a time. Also, it's not true that Robin needs to switch classes to use his skills, he needed to switch classes to acquire them. Big difference. Once he has them he can use any combination of the 5 skills he wants.

Also I've consistently said the ideal Robin for this would have Sol, Vantage, armsthrift, counter and renewal (although you could choose vengeance over sol).
Quick recap:
1) Sol (recover 50% of damage dealt. At max level that means he, when wielding Aversa's Night/Nosferatu, will get at least 50% of damage every attack and will get 100% of damage dealt every other attack.)
2) Vantage- basically works like a spidey sense except instead of helping him dodge it gives him opportunity to hit first.
3) Armsthrift- At a max stats, means his weapons durability will essentially never fade.
4) Counter- all melee/adjacent attacks that don't kill Robin automatically return equal damage. Any fighter with limited or no projectile is in trouble.
5) Renewal- 30% HP renewal every turn, which I guess IRL equals every few minutes.

 

[Nerdicon]

I was actually just gonna give Rosa the victory because we needed to move on, but since you continued...

Mike Kirby would be able to defeat Rosalina. Sound travels at 761 MPH, Rosalina can't react to this. Even if she could, the forcefield wouldn't block it. It's like a wall, and can't shut off loud noises. Mike works three times, and could be used to destroy the first wave of Lumas as well as hitting Rosa, and then the other two times hit her and she's done.

And if Kirby possesses a Luma, the space mother is done for. She won't attack a Luma, nor will she order her Lumas to attack a Luma. She has never displayed the ability to be immune to stars. In fact, she has displayed that she isn't. If she was, she wouldn't need to deflect the Star Bits you shot at her. So Kirby becomes a star and hits Rosie. Her forcefield can't block it.

I agree with vs .

I said in my post that if counterpoints were made I'd give up too.
Good point with Mike Kirby though

 

[ShadowLBlue]

It's not that fast though, at 55 meters per second from ten miles away (16093.4 meters) Kirby would make it from one end of the room to the other in roughy 5 minutes if my math isn't completely off. So even if they start from 5 miles to each other, Rosalina still has 2 full minutes to move away

And I don't think Gooloom's analysis of Kirby's speed even took in account that Kirby's 8 inches tall. 124mph is fast, but at 8 inches tall, it's not exactly like trying to get out of the way of a Nascar (if you happened to fall on the track during a race somehow.)

Again, if you won't prove your claims, I will ignore them and move on. The whole point of an argument/debate is to prove things as right or wrong, and if you won't do that, then I will drop out and move on with the bracket.

I agree with munomario777 here. If a game shows/states something as canon or lore, it's on the person arguing against it to prove that said lore/information/gameplay is wrong or misleading.

FYI, would just like to point out again games are inconsistent in regards to Ganon's invulnerability. He can be hurt (but not killed) by some non-holy weapons in a handful of Zelda games. Take that for what it's worth. I take it as he resists (but not necessarily is immune to) all non-holy weapons.

Response in bold.

Because it seems I need to explain my points in excruciating detail, I will.
A black hole destroys things because the gravity near the singularity is so strong. If something were to make it into the event horizon it would be pulled apart by the erratic gravity. Therefore if something were invincible upon entering the black hole it couldn't be harmed by it.

True.

Secondly, I've said that if Kirby were to copy one of the Lumas or Rosalina he would be able to gain their ability. I feel that Kirby should be able to take other's abilities simply because that's his main power. And yes he should gain the properties of the enemy as well as the abilities of the enemy. UFO, Cupid, Ninja, and Ghost are examples of gaining properties from the enemy as well as attacks. This gives him an immunity to gravity like I said, but it can be argued if the Luma would also give the resistance to heat.

I disagree, only because most of these fighters are not one trick ponies like many of Kirby's foes. So for example, if he copies Palutena, which of her several powers would he get?
However, he should be able to swallow attacks/fighters attacking with a weapon and acquire said weapon or attack though. Or get the attack of the last move used.

Now I'm sure you'll say that if the Luma doesn't give resistance to heat then Kirby's toast right? Well in Squeak Squad and Milky Way Wishes Kirby could store abilities and use them whenever, and he gained the ability instantly. He could also store Invincibility Candies this way. So if he did get hit by the star's heat (which unlike the blast created when a large body is created, he can't block) he would be able to nearly instantly switch to Metal, Double Stone, or Invincibility Candy + Wheel/Hypernova. If Hypernova was used he would be able to suck up the plasma that the star is composed of, not all of it but enough so he wouldn't get burned again.
Kirby can use bubble to store some Luma ability for later just in case he needs it by weakening a Luma first then defeating it with bubble.
Was there a limit on how many bubbles he could store?

Third, any Air Ride machines I feel should have maximum patches in each stat, which is why I said wheel moves as quick as it does. It's in the same vein as giving Sonic an absurd amount of rings: it's something that's technically possible but would take a lot of effort/luck to actually acquire. Not to mention that Wheel plus Magic Paintbrush is still a thing. With max glide, the wheel does high jumps, meaning that it could conserve the paint use by only using the paint for ramps.
Agreed.

Fourth, anything Kirby can use on the ground, he can use in the air on the Warp Star, so chasing Rosalina on the warp star while using Hypernova would get over the whole no Hypernova in mid-air. And the Warp Star is fast no matter how you slice it given how it travels through SPACE to other planets the size of earth in seconds. And if the point is refuted, the mechanized warp star from Kirby Air Ride can move at 200 kilometers per hour with max speed.
I agree with this.

Response in bold again.

I was actually just gonna give Rosa the victory because we needed to move on, but since you continued...

Mike Kirby would be able to defeat Rosalina. Sound travels at 761 MPH, Rosalina can't react to this. Even if she could, the forcefield wouldn't block it. It's like a wall, and can't shut off loud noises. Mike works three times, and could be used to destroy the first wave of Lumas as well as hitting Rosa, and then the other two times hit her and she's done.

What makes you think Mike Kirby 2HKO's Rosalina when it can't even do that to bosses in game who are far weaker than her?

And if Kirby possesses a Luma, the space mother is done for. She won't attack a Luma, nor will she order her Lumas to attack a Luma. She has never displayed the ability to be immune to stars. In fact, she has displayed that she isn't. If she was, she wouldn't need to deflect the Star Bits you shot at her. So Kirby becomes a star and hits Rosie. Her forcefield can't block it.
Not sure what you mean by possess a Luma. If you mean change into one after swallowing one, I'm sure she'd have no qualms hitting Kirby? And why can't her forcefield stop star bits?
.

EDIT: I just added this after my post had been up several minutes to avoid double posting (is that a rule here?). Thoughts?

As for the weakest fighters, from most weak to least I'd say:
1) R.O.B.- Just a non-living toy.
2) Olimar- A man the size of a quarter attacking with ant sized creatures.
3) Duck Hunt- A dog with a duck on it's back. The light gun does no damage in real life.
4) Wii Fii Trainers- Really in shape but possess no weapons or tools outside of that soccer ball and a hula hoop. I'm assuming those were in either of the games she is in and not just a smash thing.
5) G&W- Even if we say he can transform into anything from G&W series, that's a very limited attack move pool. Plus the attacks would be kind of slow. The only thing he has going for him is that being a 2-d figure might make him hard to see if he maintains the right angle.
6) Villager- Gave him the edge over G&W because he has an axe. I'm assuming whatever G&W is made of can be cut and doesn't regenerate. It's a toss-up though.
7) Ice Climbers- Are they allowed to be a duo, since that's how they come in smash? I'm going with yes. They jump high and both use hammers that can shatter big ice blocks easy. The strong hammers and super athletics puts them over Villager and G&W.

This imo is the bottom tier, and no Peach doesn't belong. She has an invincible parasol and access to some of Mario's power-ups.

 

[Munomario777]

Because it seems I need to explain my points in excruciating detail, I will.
A black hole destroys things because the gravity near the singularity is so strong. If something were to make it into the event horizon it would be pulled apart by the erratic gravity. Therefore if something were invincible upon entering the black hole it couldn't be harmed by it.

Your point? Wheel Kirby would be slowed down, and thus vulnerable, by the extreme gravity.

Secondly, I've said that if Kirby were to copy one of the Lumas or Rosalina he would be able to gain their ability. I feel that Kirby should be able to take other's abilities simply because that's his main power. And yes he should gain the properties of the enemy as well as the abilities of the enemy. UFO, Cupid, Ninja, and Ghost are examples of gaining properties from the enemy as well as attacks. This gives him an immunity to gravity like I said, but it can be argued if the Luma would also give the resistance to heat. Now I'm sure you'll say that if the Luma doesn't give resistance to heat then Kirby's toast right? Well in Squeak Squad and Milky Way Wishes Kirby could store abilities and use them whenever, and he gained the ability instantly. He could also store Invincibility Candies this way. So if he did get hit by the star's heat (which unlike the blast created when a large body is created, he can't block) he would be able to nearly instantly switch to Metal, Double Stone, or Invincibility Candy + Wheel/Hypernova. If Hypernova was used he would be able to suck up the plasma that the star is composed of, not all of it but enough so he wouldn't get burned again.
Kirby can use bubble to store some Luma ability for later just in case he needs it by weakening a Luma first then defeating it with bubble.

As has been pointed out before, Kirby's Inhale only gets him an ability out of a predetermined list; they're not enemy specific. The notion of each character giving Kirby a different power comes from Smash, not a canon game (correct me if I'm wrong). There's no Luma ability in the Kirby games, so Kirby cannot gain Luma powers here.
How many Candies can Kirby store? Would he be able to use them an infinite number of times?

Third, any Air Ride machines I feel should have maximum patches in each stat, which is why I said wheel moves as quick as it does. It's in the same vein as giving Sonic an absurd amount of rings: it's something that's technically possible but would take a lot of effort/luck to actually acquire. Not to mention that Wheel plus Magic Paintbrush is still a thing. With max glide, the wheel does high jumps, meaning that it could conserve the paint use by only using the paint for ramps.

Eh, fair enough. Still, Rosalina could just constantly block to avoid the Wheel.

Fourth, anything Kirby can use on the ground, he can use in the air on the Warp Star, so chasing Rosalina on the warp star while using Hypernova would get over the whole no Hypernova in mid-air. And the Warp Star is fast no matter how you slice it given how it travels through SPACE to other planets the size of earth in seconds. And if the point is refuted, the mechanized warp star from Kirby Air Ride can move at 200 kilometers per hour with max speed.

Rosalina is far too big for even Hypernova to inhale, and losing a Luma is no issue for reasons previously mentioned. In the world map of Milky Way Wishes, we clearly see Kirby on the Warp Star. Do we know Kirby's size? Yes. Do we know the size of the planets? No. Thus, we use Kirby as our reference point, and he's moving quite slowly.

No for the points I disagree with:

Rosalina should not be immune to the brute force of an explosion, if that were the case Rosalina wins this entire tournament on the grounds that she's immune to heat energy and blunt force

Fair enough, but she could still use her shield.

The rule of the arena being infinitely high needs to change because characters can escape anything if they can fly faster than the other character, for example Kirby on the warp star being able to fly up to escape Rosalina and her black holes

Okay, I'll change that sometime later this evening.

Rosalina's teleport isn't instant, as a matter of fact it's quite slow so she wouldn't be able to just teleport away from an attack. Not to mention her fastest method of flying is by Red Star, or Launch Stars which have predetermined paths

Fair enough, but she could simply use multiple Launch Stars mid-flight to control her direction.

Lumas can't just turn into some things, they need extra matter (star bits) so if Rosalina really wants to convert a Luma she needs to fill it up with star bits. This goes both ways though, if Rosalina doesn't need to fill the Lumas up first then neither does Kirby.

Yes, the Lumas need Star Bits to transform. Luckily, being in control of the cosmos, she has tons of them (Mario can have up to 9,999 in Galaxy). Kirby, on the other hand, doesn't. So even if Kirby could use a Luma's abilities, he wouldn't be able to transform.

Rosalina can't avoid something like crash or magic (meta knight choice) from hitting her due to the time stop before hand. Crash just seems to be a blast of energy which could be traveling at light speed. Same for most of the super abilities,

Does Crash affect offscreen enemies? If not, then we have our range limitation.

Rosalina can't augment gravity by placing a planetoid under the arena because a Luma ready to transform would have to be there already. And the Lumas can't pass through solid objects

Fair enough, but she could still make one above ground to still change the gravity.

If I feel I'm missing something I will argue
If someone can refute all my points I'll swallow my pride and we can move on (I think my Kirby fanboy-ism is shining through a little too much at this point)

Sounds good, I was getting a bit tired of this myself.

I was actually just gonna give Rosa the victory because we needed to move on, but since you continued...

Mike Kirby would be able to defeat Rosalina. Sound travels at 761 MPH, Rosalina can't react to this. Even if she could, the forcefield wouldn't block it. It's like a wall, and can't shut off loud noises. Mike works three times, and could be used to destroy the first wave of Lumas as well as hitting Rosa, and then the other two times hit her and she's done.

Does Mike Kirby affect offscreen enemies? If not, we have our range limitation.

And if Kirby possesses a Luma, the space mother is done for. She won't attack a Luma, nor will she order her Lumas to attack a Luma. She has never displayed the ability to be immune to stars. In fact, she has displayed that she isn't. If she was, she wouldn't need to deflect the Star Bits you shot at her. So Kirby becomes a star and hits Rosie. Her forcefield can't block it.

Lumas will sacrifice ANYTHING to protect Rosalina. Even their own brethren. Aside from the fact that Lumas need Star Bits in order to transform (which Kirby doesn't have and Rosalina does), Rosalina can withstand the incredible heat coming from the star in the center of the Comet Observatory, even though she's right next to it.

I agree with vs .

Glad we're on the same page.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Your point? Wheel Kirby would be slowed down, and thus vulnerable, by the extreme gravity.

As has been pointed out before, Kirby's Inhale only gets him an ability out of a predetermined list; they're not enemy specific. The notion of each character giving Kirby a different power comes from Smash, not a canon game (correct me if I'm wrong). There's no Luma ability in the Kirby games, so Kirby cannot gain Luma powers here.
How many Candies can Kirby store? Would he be able to use them an infinite number of times?

Eh, fair enough. Still, Rosalina could just constantly block to avoid the Wheel.

Rosalina is far too big for even Hypernova to inhale, and losing a Luma is no issue for reasons previously mentioned. In the world map of Milky Way Wishes, we clearly see Kirby on the Warp Star. Do we know Kirby's size? Yes. Do we know the size of the planets? No. Thus, we use Kirby as our reference point, and he's moving quite slowly.

Fair enough, but she could still use her shield.
Okay, I'll change that sometime later this evening.

Fair enough, but she could simply use multiple Launch Stars mid-flight to control her direction.
Yes, the Lumas need Star Bits to transform. Luckily, being in control of the cosmos, she has tons of them (Mario can have up to 9,999 in Galaxy). Kirby, on the other hand, doesn't. So even if Kirby could use a Luma's abilities, he wouldn't be able to transform.

Does Crash affect offscreen enemies? If not, then we have our range limitation.
Fair enough, but she could still make one above ground to still change the gravity.

Sounds good, I was getting a bit tired of this myself.

Does Mike Kirby affect offscreen enemies? If not, we have our range limitation.

Lumas will sacrifice ANYTHING to protect Rosalina. Even their own brethren. Aside from the fact that Lumas need Star Bits in order to transform (which Kirby doesn't have and Rosalina does), Rosalina can withstand the incredible heat coming from the star in the center of the Comet Observatory, even though she's right next to it.

Glad we're on the same page.

I don't think Mike or Crash affect offscreen enemies, but Kirby can get close enough by traveling on the Warp Star. The answer to the candy question is five. He can gain temporary invincibility up to five times, and also use Guard to block all damage.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't think Mike or Crash affect offscreen enemies, but Kirby can get close enough by traveling on the Warp Star.

I see. Still, though, those abilities won't defeat bosses, and Rosalina is much larger than any Kirby boss, so I think she could take the hits.

The answer to the candy question is five. He can gain temporary invincibility up to five times, and also use Guard to block all damage.

Ah. Still, seeing as how Rosalina has a practically infinite number of star/black hole attacks and Kirby's Candies are limited (and that Kirby's guard doesn't protect him from lava, and thus red-hot stars, or attacks involving grabbing), I'd say Rosalina has the upper hand here.

 

[Nerdicon]

Your point? Wheel Kirby would be slowed down, and thus vulnerable, by the extreme gravity.

As has been pointed out before, Kirby's Inhale only gets him an ability out of a predetermined list; they're not enemy specific. The notion of each character giving Kirby a different power comes from Smash, not a canon game (correct me if I'm wrong). There's no Luma ability in the Kirby games, so Kirby cannot gain Luma powers here.
How many Candies can Kirby store? Would he be able to use them an infinite number of times?

This statement in and of itself is false. There is no predetermined anything here if it has always changed in the series. Back in Return to Dreamland there were bow enemies, but they don't give the archer ability. I guess it's impossible for the ability to exist then. The powers are taken directly from the enemies, but yes sometimes not all abilities are transferred over because they are outclassed by something the ability already has. Some enemies don't give abilities because there's nothing there to copy. Some enemies are exceptions to this rule like large bosses not having any abilities to give, but most of these bosses drop something that can be used to copy. Copy still works on minibosses who clearly have abilities but you can't (immediately) copy otherwise. As for the candies that depends, given that Kirby has all of his abilities in the forms of copy essence deluxe, he could carry 5 candies to use at any time.

Eh, fair enough. Still, Rosalina could just constantly block to avoid the Wheel.

I've explained why that's pointless before

Rosalina is far too big for even Hypernova to inhale, and losing a Luma is no issue for reasons previously mentioned. In the world map of Milky Way Wishes, we clearly see Kirby on the Warp Star. Do we know Kirby's size? Yes. Do we know the size of the planets? No. Thus, we use Kirby as our reference point, and he's moving quite slowly.

Actually yes, Pop-Star according to Kirby 64 is the size of Earth which I've already stated long ago. So knowing that Kirby is moving around 6700+ Kilometers per hour, he could easily catch Rosalina

Fair enough, but she could still use her shield.

Still no star bits though.

Fair enough, but she could simply use multiple Launch Stars mid-flight to control her direction.

And she wouldn't be able to shoot star bits while flying via Launch Star, so no helpful Lumas. Not to mention the small delay when Rosalina actually spins to get the star to work.

Yes, the Lumas need Star Bits to transform. Luckily, being in control of the cosmos, she has tons of them (Mario can have up to 9,999 in Galaxy). Kirby, on the other hand, doesn't. So even if Kirby could use a Luma's abilities, he wouldn't be able to transform.

What I'm getting at here is that it takes a while to fill these Lumas up, so Kirby could easily defeat the Lumas as they're filling up, thus preventing any black holes. Not to mention no black holes while she's blocking.

Does Crash affect offscreen enemies? If not, then we have our range limitation.

Errr...no. Since this is the only point I find valid I'll stick to my word.

Fair enough, but she could still make one above ground to still change the gravity.

Not really helpful considering this would only draw Kirby to the area above him, which isn't really useful

Sounds good, I was getting a bit tired of this myself.

Meh.

Does Mike Kirby affect offscreen enemies? If not, we have our range limitation.

Kirby Air Ride mike does actually, very far offscreen may I add
Well since I got the Crash thing wrong I concede defeat.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I see. Still, though, those abilities won't defeat bosses, and Rosalina is much larger than any Kirby boss, so I think she could take the hits.
The abilities won't defeat them, but it will do a heavy amount of damage to them. Two screams from Mike can defeat a boss, so three will defeat Rosalina. Even if they don't, Kirby can still use the aforementioned Crash, that's four heavy damage attacks.

Ah. Still, seeing as how Rosalina has a practically infinite number of star/black hole attacks and Kirby's Candies are limited (and that Kirby's guard doesn't protect him from lava, and thus red-hot stars, or attacks involving grabbing), I'd say Rosalina has the upper hand here.
Remember, Rosalina has no knowledge of Kirby. She doesn't know Kirby only has five (or six, because Magic Kirby could create another one). Once she sees him use the invincibility two or three times, she'll think Kirby doesn't have a limit, and will stop attacking. Invincible Kirby can also damage Rosalina several times by running into her.

 

[Goolloom]

Answers in Bold

Because it seems I need to explain my points in excruciating detail, I will.
A black hole destroys things because the gravity near the singularity is so strong. If something were to make it into the event horizon it would be pulled apart by the erratic gravity. Therefore if something were invincible upon entering the black hole it couldn't be harmed by it.
- Though he wouldn't necessarily die from the gravity of the black hole, they would still be physically crippled from the black hole, most notably being turned to a noodle due to the spaghettification effect.
Secondly, I've said that if Kirby were to copy one of the Lumas or Rosalina he would be able to gain their ability. I feel that Kirby should be able to take other's abilities simply because that's his main power. And yes he should gain the properties of the enemy as well as the abilities of the enemy. UFO, Cupid, Ninja, and Ghost are examples of gaining properties from the enemy as well as attacks. This gives him an immunity to gravity like I said, but it can be argued if the Luma would also give the resistance to heat. Now I'm sure you'll say that if the Luma doesn't give resistance to heat then Kirby's toast right? Well in Squeak Squad and Milky Way Wishes Kirby could store abilities and use them whenever, and he gained the ability instantly. He could also store Invincibility Candies this way. So if he did get hit by the star's heat (which unlike the blast created when a large body is created, he can't block) he would be able to nearly instantly switch to Metal, Double Stone, or Invincibility Candy + Wheel/Hypernova. If Hypernova was used he would be able to suck up the plasma that the star is composed of, not all of it but enough so he wouldn't get burned again.
Kirby can use bubble to store some Luma ability for later just in case he needs it by weakening a Luma first then defeating it with bubble.
- If he manages to inhale the Lumas, he would need star bits too to transform into things right? Since the Lumas need some and can't do it by themselves, Kirby would need to get Star Bits as well, but he can't get them as easily as Rosalina making the Luma's ability essentially pointless.
Third, any Air Ride machines I feel should have maximum patches in each stat, which is why I said wheel moves as quick as it does. It's in the same vein as giving Sonic an absurd amount of rings: it's something that's technically possible but would take a lot of effort/luck to actually acquire. Not to mention that Wheel plus Magic Paintbrush is still a thing. With max glide, the wheel does high jumps, meaning that it could conserve the paint use by only using the paint for ramps.
- By appling this it comes down to also giving Rosalina a near infinite amount of Star Bits giving the Lumas their maximum potential. Like Mario can stack up to 9999 Star Bits. (And this is easy to do in Mario Galaxy)
Fourth, anything Kirby can use on the ground, he can use in the air on the Warp Star, so chasing Rosalina on the warp star while using Hypernova would get over the whole no Hypernova in mid-air. And the Warp Star is fast no matter how you slice it given how it travels through SPACE to other planets the size of earth in seconds. And if the point is refuted, the mechanized warp star from Kirby Air Ride can move at 200 kilometers per hour with max speed.
- Well, i can't see why he couldn't use hypernova in mid-air (Is he unable to do this in his games?) If he is then he shouldn't be able to do it here because it wouldn't be 100% canon, but hypernova (according to the Wiki says it is used to inhale things bigger than usual)
No for the points I disagree with:

• Rosalina should not be immune to the brute force of an explosion, if that were the case Rosalina wins this entire tournament on the grounds that she's immune to heat energy and blunt force -However, she could keep shielding, and her heat resistance is pretty high considering she stands next to a star without being phased at all.
• The rule of the arena being infinitely high needs to change because characters can escape anything if they can fly faster than the other character, for example Kirby on the warp star being able to fly up to escape Rosalina and her black holes. -This issue could be fixed with a ceiling, making the arena 10X10X10 miles cube. But even if there was a black hole, he would need to first be out of the dead zone.
  
• Rosalina's teleport isn't instant, as a matter of fact it's quite slow so she wouldn't be able to just teleport away from an attack. Not to mention her fastest method of flying is by Red Star, or Launch Stars which have predetermined paths -This however could be because she wasn't in battle or anything, but I beleive she could control at which speed she teleports (ADD SOURCE HERE)
  
• Lumas can't just turn into some things, they need extra matter (star bits) so if Rosalina really wants to convert a Luma she needs to fill it up with star bits. This goes both ways though, if Rosalina doesn't need to fill the Lumas up first then neither does Kirby. -Explained before.
  
• Rosalina can't avoid something like crash or magic (meta knight choice) from hitting her due to the time stop before hand. Crash just seems to be a blast of energy which could be traveling at light speed. Same for most of the super abilities, -The crash or Mike ability cannot hurt enemies out of the screen, hence the range limitation, also in Air-Ride f they are just too far, they are not affected.
  
• Rosalina can't augment gravity by placing a planetoid under the arena because a Luma ready to transform would have to be there already. And the Lumas can't pass through solid objects -That could still be possible by putting a super massive body on the ground, massive enough to have a strong gravitationnal pull.

If I feel I'm missing something I will argue
If someone can refute all my points I'll swallow my pride and we can move on (I think my Kirby fanboy-ism is shining through a little too much at this point)

For Mike and Crash abilities though they deal heavy damage, Rosalina could get out of range, or be able to take 2 or 3 hits from them.

''Remember, Rosalina has no knowledge of Kirby. (Neither does Kirby, he knows nothing about Rosalina too) She doesn't know Kirby only has five (or six, because Magic Kirby could create another one). Once she sees him use the invincibility two or three times, she'll think Kirby doesn't have a limit, and will stop attacking. (What makes you assume this? We don't know enough about Rosalina's personnality to assume this) Invincible Kirby can also damage Rosalina several times by running into her.'' (That could be Shielded or avoided by getting away)

 

[Munomario777]

This statement in and of itself is false. There is no predetermined anything here if it has always changed in the series. Back in Return to Dreamland there were bow enemies, but they don't give the archer ability. I guess it's impossible for the ability to exist then. The powers are taken directly from the enemies, but yes sometimes not all abilities are transferred over because they are outclassed by something the ability already has. Some enemies don't give abilities because there's nothing there to copy. Some enemies are exceptions to this rule like large bosses not having any abilities to give, but most of these bosses drop something that can be used to copy. Copy still works on minibosses who clearly have abilities but you can't (immediately) copy otherwise. As for the candies that depends, given that Kirby has all of his abilities in the forms of copy essence deluxe, he could carry 5 candies to use at any time.

The predetermined list is here. Whether or not an ability was in an earlier game is irrelevant; the Cape wasn't in the original Super Mario Bros., but it's still canon. Kirby doesn't get a Waddle Doo ability; he gets the Beam ability, which is shared by other enemies. Smash is the only game where there are character-specific Copy Abilities that actually, well, copy abilities one-to-one. In the canon Kirby games, he gets an ability that shares a theme with the enemy (i.e. any sword enemy will give Sword, but they don't all wear Link's hat).

I've explained why that's pointless before

Care to reiterate? If you're talking about Rosalina's lack of attacking ability while shielding, there are the Lumas to do that for her.

Actually yes, Pop-Star according to Kirby 64 is the size of Earth which I've already stated long ago. So knowing that Kirby is moving around 6700+ Kilometers per hour, he could easily catch Rosalina

Actually, I don't believe Planet Popstar is in Milky Way Wishes, so this is invalid.

Still no star bits though.

How so? Mario can fire Star Bits while spinning, jumping, moving, going in a Launch Star, or doing anything else, and Rosalina would be able to do the same while shielding and such.

And she wouldn't be able to shoot star bits while flying via Launch Star, so no helpful Lumas. Not to mention the small delay when Rosalina actually spins to get the star to work.

See above. Also, the Sling Star (mini-Launch Star) is much quicker to launch.

What I'm getting at here is that it takes a while to fill these Lumas up, so Kirby could easily defeat the Lumas as they're filling up, thus preventing any black holes. Not to mention no black holes while she's blocking.

Or Rosalina could use her own powers combined with the other Lumas to keep Kirby away (forming one measly black hole would be extremely quick anyway, since most of the Hungry Lumas make multiple black holes and planets; probably about 10-50), since she can do anything while shooting Star Bits.

Errr...no. Since this is the only point I find valid I'll stick to my word.

M'kay.

Not really helpful considering this would only draw Kirby to the area above him, which isn't really useful

Yeah, but it could still catch him off guard/disorient him.

Meh.

Kirby Air Ride mike does actually, very far offscreen may I add
Well since I got the Crash thing wrong I concede defeat.

As I've said earlier, main series games > spinoffs because they're the core of the series, there's more of them, and they're the most recent.

The abilities won't defeat them, but it will do a heavy amount of damage to them. Two screams from Mike can defeat a boss, so three will defeat Rosalina. Even if they don't, Kirby can still use the aforementioned Crash, that's four heavy damage attacks.

Rosalina could shield it, then. Also, she's about six times as tall as any Kirby boss, so I still have my doubts.

Remember, Rosalina has no knowledge of Kirby. She doesn't know Kirby only has five (or six, because Magic Kirby could create another one). Once she sees him use the invincibility two or three times, she'll think Kirby doesn't have a limit, and will stop attacking. Invincible Kirby can also damage Rosalina several times by running into her.

Actually, Rosalina has experience with this sort of thing. She's a Mario character, and the Mario universe is littered with Starmen. The Invincibility Candies and Starmen are very similar, both granting invincibility for a few seconds. Due to the theme song playing as well as the change in appearance while Kirby is using one (both similar to the Starmen), she'll know when it ends and when to attack. As for the damage, shielding. 'Nuff said.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Rosalina could shield it, then. Also, she's about six times as tall as any Kirby boss, so I still have my doubts.

Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Mr. Moley is about seven times Kirby's size, so 56 inches, or 4'8''. Rosalina is only 2'4'' taller than that. And let's not forget Marx, who's planet-sized. If Rosalina was that much taller than Kirby, she wouldn't be able to see him before he goes Fighter and punches her leg off. Or uses his OHKO's.

Again, Rosalina can't block Mike. Forcefields are like walls, they won't block out loud noises. Plus, sound is much faster than Rosie can react to, so at least the first blast would hit.

 

[Munomario777]

Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Mr. Moley is about seven times Kirby's size, so 56 inches, or 4'8''. Rosalina is only 2'4'' taller than that. And let's not forget Marx, who's planet-sized. If Rosalina was that much taller than Kirby, she wouldn't be able to see him before he goes Fighter and punches her leg off. Or uses his OHKO's.

By "any Kirby boss" I was referring to the average Kirby boss, which is about three times Kirby's height. How much damage does Mike deal to the bosses you mentioned? As for the height, tiny squishy pink puffball punches wouldn't really cause her leg to fall off, and she could just squish him with that same leg at that point.

Again, Rosalina can't block Mike. Forcefields are like walls, they won't block out loud noises. Plus, sound is much faster than Rosie can react to, so at least the first blast would hit.

Who says that force fields are like walls? They don't exist in real life, and there's nothing really saying that they're only as protective as walls. Even so, walls do dampen noise and sound waves, even if they're not sound proof. If Kirby's tiny headphones can protect him from his own voice, Rosalina's comparatively giant force field could surely negate it as well.

 

[Goolloom]

Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Mr. Moley is about seven times Kirby's size, so 56 inches, or 4'8''. Rosalina is only 2'4'' taller than that. And let's not forget Marx, who's planet-sized.(Though in Kirby superstar Marx and Kirby seemed to be about the same size, so i don't know where you're pulling that out of.) If Rosalina was that much taller than Kirby, she wouldn't be able to see him before he goes Fighter and punches her leg off. (What?) Or uses his OHKO's. (Not Necessarily a One hit on bosses)

Again, Rosalina can't block Mike. Forcefields are like walls, they won't block out loud noises. Plus, sound is much faster than Rosie can react to, so at least the first blast would hit. (Maybe not , but simple headphones could stop from harming Kirby, so i doubt that the force barrier would not filter the sound (For example If air doesn't get through her shield then sound doesn't) but nothing disallows her to move out of range yet again)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

By "any Kirby boss" I was referring to the average Kirby boss, which is about three times Kirby's height. How much damage does Mike deal to the bosses you mentioned? As for the height, tiny squishy pink puffball punches wouldn't really cause her leg to fall off, and she could just squish him with that same leg at that point.

Who says that force fields are like walls? They don't exist in real life, and there's nothing really saying that they're only as protective as walls. Even so, walls do dampen noise and sound waves, even if they're not sound proof. If Kirby's tiny headphones can protect him from his own voice, Rosalina's comparatively giant force field could surely negate it as well.

These do not seem like tiny squishy pink puffball punches to me.

And 19:15. Kirby is strong enough to pull Rosalina down from floating so his punches will work. Kirby can also slam her on the ground and crack her head open.

Mike does 106 damage. I don't know how much damage this is to a boss, but Crash, with the same effect, takes over half of a miniboss' damage. That's why I say that Rosalina, who is like a boss, would die from three Mike attacks, and a Crash attack if needed.

It should be noted that Mike and Crash can both reach through walls. The headphones don't protect Kirby from the blast, he's protected because the attacks go away from him and onto enemies.

 

[Munomario777]

These do not seem like tiny squishy pink puffball punches to me.

Notice the ten second charge-up time to those punches, during which Rosalina could easily counter attack.

And 19:15. Kirby is strong enough to pull Rosalina down from floating so his punches will work. Kirby can also slam her on the ground and crack her head open.

Hey look, another anime clip that contradicts the games! In the games, Cook Kirby does something completely different. How is Kirby strong enough to pull Rosalina down? He's certainly not heavy enough.

Mike does 106 damage. I don't know how much damage this is to a boss, but Crash, with the same effect, takes over half of a miniboss' damage. That's why I say that Rosalina, who is like a boss, would die from three Mike attacks, and a Crash attack if needed.

Numbers are meaningless without a point of reference as to how much damage that actually translates to. How large is the miniboss you mentioned? Which bosses has Mike/Crash damaged in that amount of hits, and how large are they?

It should be noted that Mike and Crash can both reach through walls. The headphones don't protect Kirby from the blast, he's protected because the attacks go away from him and onto enemies.

That's not how sound works. Sound travels in all directions, and assuming that the amplifier is inside of the microphone, Kirby would need some sort of protection.

Anyway, I'm working on VSnow, seeing as how the Rosalina VS Kirby debate has 3 supporters for Rosalina and 2 supporters for Kirby.

 

[Munomario777]

VS
FIGHT!

Rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Pit gets all of his weapons from KI: Uprising, and can switch between them at will; however, he will not get the Powers, since those are granted to him by Palutena, but he will be allowed to fly for a little bit (not for the five minutes Palutena's Power of Flight grants, however).
• Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc., as well as having the maximum amount of 9,999 Star Bits.
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's dive right into this analysis! First up, Rosalina is on the offensive!
's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars
Pit's Guardian Orbitars create two large shields made of energy to protect Pit from nearly any attack while still allowing him to use another weapon.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.
's Counter: Guardian Orbitars
The Guardian Orbitars also protect against projectile attacks.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!
's Counter: N/A
Not even Pit's Guardian Orbitars can protect him from being spaghettified by a black hole.

Halfway through the analysis, it looks like Rosalina has quite the upper hand! However, will things change when Pit goes on the offensive? Let's see...
's Attack: Divine Arsenal
Pit has an impressive assortment of weapons, from clubs and staffs to bows and claws and more! He has a weapon for nearly every occasion.
's Counter: Shield
Rosalina can create a protective barrier around her at any time, and the Lumas can still attack while she does this (plus, she can fire Star Bits to feed the Lumas' transformations while shielding).

's Attack: Three Sacred Treasures/Great Sacred Treasure
While the Three Sacred Treasures are very powerful as-is (have you seen his Final Smash?!), they pale in comparison to Pit's ultimate weapon, which is the Great Sacred Treasure! This is more of a towering mech than a weapon, and it has multiple forms for different purposes. However, the only one Pit would really need in the fight is the Standard Form. This form is the most powerful, able to release massive explosions, homing lasers, flaming shots, electric shots, water, whirlwinds, large balls of fire or electricity, shots that hover and pull enemies towards it, a charged mega-laser beam attack and more. It can teleport and ram into opponents, and has an even more powerful attack which takes five seconds to charge up, but then unleashes a devastating beam of energy for a one-hit KO on nearly any enemy.
's Counter: Shield + Black Hole
Rosalina's shield can block practically any attack, and she probably would have made a black hole before this point anyway.

CONCLUSION: While Pit's arsenal is impressive, Rosalina's cosmic abilities are just too much for Pit to handle.

WINNER:

That wraps up Round 3 of the main bracket. Now onto Round 4!

This analysis is part of the bracket

 

[Kirby Dragons]

When Kirby had two supporters and Rosalina had one, you didn't move on. So we can't move on now. I said previously that Kirby should win because it was 2v1. So that would mean Kirby wins.

 

[Munomario777]

When Kirby had two supporters and Rosalina had one, you didn't move on. So we can't move on now. I said previously that Kirby should win because it was 2v1. So that would mean Kirby wins.

I hesitated because there were only three people involved. Now there are five, so we have a larger sample of people voting, and thus can draw a better conclusion.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

When Kirby had two supporters and Rosalina had one, you didn't move on. So we can't move on now. I said previously that Kirby should win because it was 2v1. So that would mean Kirby wins.

has more votes than , though; me, Muno and Goolloom all voted for Rosalina to win, but you and Nerdicon voted for Kirby; that's 3-2.

So by votes, wins. But let's move on to the next bracket, shall we?
I'll be helpful and tackle one of the fights myself;

VS.
FIGHT!

Rules:

• The arena is 5 miles x 5 miles.
• Link cannot use the Fierce Deity's Mask.
• Both characters have limited item use; Link can only use the Master Sword, bombs, the Longshot and the bow and 5 of each arrow type and Mewtwo can only use his own moveset, Super Potions, Mewtwonite Y and a Focus Sash.
  
• Mewtwo cannot use his mass-amnesia powers from the anime.
  
• Link cannot use Z-Targeting for moves.

Now, for the fight itself;'s attack: Shadow Ball
Mewtwo fires a black ball of energy from his palms, which becomes increasingly damaging the longer it's charged.
's counter: Skyward Slash
Link launches a stream of energy forwards from his sword, cutting through projectiles. It also needs some time to charge.

's attack: Disable
Mewtwo sends a strong telekinetic pulse through his brain to the target, stunning them and leaving them open to attack. It's only effective with eye contact, however.
's counter: N/A
Even the one with the Triforce of Courage can't really compete with Disable, alas.

's attack: Confusion
Mewtwo attacks with a weak telekinetic pulse, tossing his foe into the air slightly and reflecting items and projectiles launched at it.
's counter: Hylian Shield
Link's Hylian Shield is made of incredibly strong metals, and as such is able to absorb hits from weapons. It won't stop him from being flung, but it'll stop his own reflected projectiles.

's attack: Psychic
Mewtwo uses a strong telekinetic force to strike his foe, causing damage and lowering Special Defense.

's counter: Spin Attack
Link spins his sword in a circle, flinging nearby foes away and leaving them open to an attack.

's attack: Triforce Slash
Link stuns his foe with a blast of energy from his Triforce of Courage, which traps them as he slashes at them multiple times, finishing with a powerful thrust.
's counter: Teleport
Mewtwo can warp around the arena to dodge attacks, including the Triforce Slash if timed properly.

's attack: Mega Mewtwo Y
Mewtwo uses his Mewtwonite Y to Mega-Evolve into his Mega form, greatly enhancing his psychic powers and speed at the cost of a bit of weight.
's counter: N/A
Link doesn't have anything to combat Mega Mewtwo Y's high speed and extreme psychic power, which is unlike anything he's encountered before.

CONCLUSION: While Link's arsenal is diverse enough to deal with a number of Mewtwo's attacks, he is ultimately at a disadvantage due to Mewtwo's Disable, Confusion, Teleport and Mega forme, which is what seals this fight to me.

WINNER:

 

[Munomario777]

@ Dastardly Ridleylash I agree as far as Rosalina goes, but I don't think we should limit characters' abilities like that. Also, I don't think Triforce Slash has appeared outside of Smash.

 

[Crystanium]

That's pretty much what I just said... Magic granted by the gods counts as "powerful magic." As a side note, Ganondorf's own magic is also on a godly level, thanks to the Triforce of Power.

No it isn't. You're clarifying what you might have meant. The Triforce of Power enhances Ganondorf's magic, but not to a godly level like what the three goddesses could probably conjure.

A disruption is a "disturbance or problem that interrupts an event, activity, or process." I'd say putting a bullet through someone's chest counts as a problem, and making a hole counts as an event, activity, or process. Also, the atoms are being split apart from each other, but not just on a sub-thread level; the threads are made up of atoms, so each thread is a lot of atoms. By separating the threads, a lot of atoms (a thread) are being separated from another lot of atoms (another thread).

I'd equally say barging into a classroom is rather disruptive. Let's use the proper definition here, which is, "drastically alter or destroy the structure of (something)". Now let's use this with reference to atoms. In other words, atomic disruption is to "drastically alter or destroy the structure of an atom". The thread example differs in that while the threads themselves are made of atoms, the threads that are interwoven are being spread apart, creating a hole between the threads, not into the threads themselves.

Kirby's Dream Land 3 is canon. The ice stage is canon. Therefore, since Samus, Metroids, etc. are in that stage, they are canonically linked. There's no denying that Samus is there, giving Kirby a collectible. As for the gods making the world stuff, there's nothing saying that there couldn't be multiple gods/goddesses, all of whom created the gaming universe as whole (or, alternatively, they each created one gaming world/galaxy/group of galaxies inside the bigger universe). Greek mythology does this very thing, with multiple gods, goddesses, and other divine beings (as do Kid Icarus, Zelda, and other gaming franchises). If you can provide sufficient proof that there isn't one big gaming universe, then I will change my stance. Otherwise, I'll just move on.

The game itself is canon, but that doesn't mean Samus has ever traveled to the planet Kirby finds her on. Unless in a Metroid game, Samus actually does this, it's just a cameo. The goddesses themselves are omnipotent and we have observed in the Zelda series that it's only the three goddesses creating the Universe that is Hyrule. According to the introduction in A Link to the Past, the Triforce, which is the power of the goddesses, is omnipotent. They wouldn't need any help from anyone else.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the Kid Icarus series, Dyntos is the creator god, since he creates objects and according to Icaruspedia, "to entire recreations of various locations". He'd probably be similar to the Memphite creator god, Ptah, who thought and spoke the world into being. More here. In actual Greek myth, there was no creation because the world existed eternally. This changed later on with Chaos being introduced. In ancient Near Eastern literature, such as Enuma Elish and even Bere**** (the Book of Genesis), water is the primeval source of all things. This included Nu, the primeval water in Egyptian myth.

Again, while scrapped, due to time limitations, the Reptilicus' religious view is that "From the sleeping chaos awoke the high god. It was he, the Antecedent, the propagator of the genesis, and the eternal body in the sky. In the beginning of creation, the life giving sun created its first child, Bryyo." There's no reason to think these gods and goddesses worked together to create the Universe when they're very well capable and wise in what they do.

Again, if you won't prove your claims, I will ignore them and move on. The whole point of an argument/debate is to prove things as right or wrong, and if you won't do that, then I will drop out and move on with the bracket.

That's fine because I've already presented why your view of Ganondorf is demonstrably incorrect.

 

[Munomario777]

No it isn't. You're clarifying what you might have meant. The Triforce of Power enhances Ganondorf's magic, but not to a godly level like what the three goddesses could probably conjure.

Really? Because:

Ah, I see. Still, the "Magical" in the name implies that it has the same magical powers as the Master Sword, making it able to defeat Ganon, which Samus's beams don't have.

~=

Or it could just be that powerful magic is effective against Ganondorf. His own magic stuns him.

As for the whole Triforce of Power deal:

The Triforce of Power embodies the essence of the Goddess of Power, Din, the creator of Hyrule.[29] Whoever holds the Triforce of Power is granted "true power".[19] This power is absolute, making the recipient of Din's blessing a god-like entity, vastly more powerful than any mortal, affording its wielder invulnerability,[28] vast strength and an unlimited source of mystical power.

I'd equally say barging into a classroom is rather disruptive. Let's use the proper definition here, which is, "drastically alter or destroy the structure of (something)". Now let's use this with reference to atoms. In other words, atomic disruption is to "drastically alter or destroy the structure of an atom". The thread example differs in that while the threads themselves are made of atoms, the threads that are interwoven are being spread apart, creating a hole between the threads, not into the threads themselves.

It could go either way, honestly. "Atomic disruption" can be interpreted as either disrupting the structure of the atoms individually or in relation to each other; the best thing to do here would be to look at in-game examples and see which definition those fit best.

The game itself is canon, but that doesn't mean Samus has ever traveled to the planet Kirby finds her on. Unless in a Metroid game, Samus actually does this, it's just a cameo.

How are cameos inherently non-canon? If a famous actor has a cameo in a movie, that isn't wiped out of existence; the actor still played that role. A fictional example is:

Spoiler: Guardians of the Galaxy post-credits spoilers

Howard the Duck from the Marvel comics is in the Collector's collection.

In fact, this whole situation is comparable to the Marvel universe. Both have many separate franchises, the characters of which appear in other franchises from time to time. Both span multiple forms of media, have obscure ends, span multiple galaxies, planets, and dimensions, and perhaps most importantly, have a massive crossover where the most prominent characters from the most prominent franchises join together for an epic adventure/smack down/what have you. The only real difference in the structure here is that Nintendo doesn't really go into detail on the matter, but that doesn't really matter since it's clear from in-game examples that this is the case.

The goddesses themselves are omnipotent and we have observed in the Zelda series that it's only the three goddesses creating the Universe that is Hyrule. According to the introduction in A Link to the Past, the Triforce, which is the power of the goddesses, is omnipotent. They wouldn't need any help from anyone else.

Erm... Hyrule is a kingdom, not a universe. In fact, the large-scale setting of the Zelda series (AKA not just Hyrule, but what it resides in) isn't really described as a universe, but rather as a "world". A world isn't the same as a universe:

World: the earth, together with all of its countries, peoples, and natural features.

Could there be different gods that are in charge of this specific Zelda planet, but not necessarily the entire gaming universe? Certainly. This would solve the problem of them not needing help to create the universe and all, but I'll take a different approach to that anyway. "Omnipotent" doesn't necessarily mean unlimited power:

Omnipotence: the quality of having unlimited or very great power.

Very great power still isn't infinite, and more power would likely be needed to create an entire universe (even though it appears that that's not what Zelda's gods are doing in the first place).

I wouldn't be surprised if in the Kid Icarus series, Dyntos is the creator god, since he creates objects and according to Icaruspedia, "to entire recreations of various locations". He'd probably be similar to the Memphite creator god, Ptah, who thought and spoke the world into being. More here. In actual Greek myth, there was no creation because the world existed eternally. This changed later on with Chaos being introduced. In ancient Near Eastern literature, such as Enuma Elish and even Bere**** (the Book of Genesis), water is the primeval source of all things. This included Nu, the primeval water in Egyptian myth.

It's very possible that he had a part in creating the universe, but I don't think that there's enough to draw a conclusion as-is (creating weapons doesn't necessarily mean you can create a universe).

Again, while scrapped, due to time limitations, the Reptilicus' religious view is that "From the sleeping chaos awoke the high god. It was he, the Antecedent, the propagator of the genesis, and the eternal body in the sky. In the beginning of creation, the life giving sun created its first child, Bryyo." There's no reason to think these gods and goddesses worked together to create the Universe when they're very well capable and wise in what they do.

Aside from the fact that this was scrapped and is thus non-canon, someone believing in gods isn't solid proof that they actually exist in this context, as you pointed out earlier. However, if we're counting this as canon, then I'd say that's their way of interpreting the creation of the universe (or perhaps it's a record of the earliest of video game creation, which hasn't actually been documented in a game yet).

That's fine because I've already presented why your view of Ganondorf is demonstrably incorrect.

As @ ShadowLBlue so eloquently put it:

I agree with munomario777 here. If a game shows/states something as canon or lore, it's on the person arguing against it to prove that said lore/information/gameplay is wrong or misleading.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

vs
Rules

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick and infinitely high solid steel walls; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them.
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

Attacker: Ness
's Attack: Legendary Bat
The Legendary Bat enhances Ness' attack by 110, and can be used as a melee weapon.
's Counter: Item Vacuum
Palutena can suck the bat away.

's Attack: Gutsy Bat
The Gutsy Bat enhances Ness' attack by 100, and gives him the chance of getting SMAAAASH!!
's Counter: Item Vacuum
Palutena can suck the bat away.

's Attack: Combat Yo-Yo
This yo-yo increases Ness' attack by 54.
's Counter: Item Vacuum
Palutena can suck the yo-yo away.

's Attack: Bionic Slingshot
Ness can fire shots from a slingshot.
's Counter: Reflect Barrier
Palutena can send the shots back.

's Attack: PSI Rockin
Ness can use a powerful telekinetic blast to deal up to 960 damage.
's Counter: Sky Jump
Palutena can jump high into the air and above the blast.

's Attack: PK Flash
Ness can use PSI to induce a random effect. These are the effects in PK Flash's most powerful state.

• Crying (lowering attack, 35% chance)
• Strangeness (makes things target anyone besides the original target, 10% chance)
• Paralysis (15% chance)
• Instant Defeat (40% chance)

's Counter: Effect Recovery
Those are mainly status ailments, and Palutena can use Effect Recovery to get rid of them.

's Attack: Hypnosis
Ness can put Palutena to sleep.
's Counter: Tirelessness/Super Speed
Tirelessness will prevent Palutena from wearing out. Or, she could just increase her speed and dodge the attack.
Attacker: Palutena
's Attack: Light Blasts
Palutena can fire light blasts from her staff.
's Counter: Shield
Ness' most powerful shield can reflect the blasts back at Palutena.
's Counter: Super Speed
Palutena can run away from the blasts.

's Attack: Banish
Palutena can banish Ness to the Underworld.
's Counter: Teleport
If Ness runs around a bit, he can teleport out of the Underworld.
's Counter: Limitations
There are several hazards in the Underworld, and getting hit with one would cancel Teleport. In addition, Teleport can't be used in areas like the Underworld.

's Attack: Black Hole
Palutena can suck Ness closer using a black hole.
's Counter: Nothing
Nothing that Ness can do will prevent him from getting sucked in.

's Attack: Land Mine
Palutena can plant an invisible bomb that explodes when walked on.
's Counter: Nothing
Ness can't see the bomb, so it will hurt him when he steps on it.

's Attack: Angelic Missile
Palutena can launch herself like a missile at Ness.
's Counter: Skip Sandwich
Ness can enhance his speed using a skip sandwich and dodge.

's Attack: Mega Laser
Palutena can fire a strong laser at Ness.
's Counter: Shield
Ness can reflect the laser back at Palutena.
's Counter: Invisible Shots
If Palutena makes her shots invisible, Ness won't reflect them.

's Attack: Meteor Shower
Palutena can create a rain of meteors to fall onto Ness.
's Counter: Shield
Ness can reflect the meteors back at Palutena.
's Counter: Invisible Shots
If Palutena makes her shots invisible, Ness won't reflect them.
Summary
Palutena's Powers will overwhelm Ness. She has Powers of many types. She can use them to dodge/stop any of Ness' attacks, and can use their power to defeat him. The winner is Palutena.