Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

Actually, they do. In an episode of AoStH, a Special Stage makes an appearance, and the Rings serve the same purpose as they do in Sonic 2's Special Stages, that being something Sonic must collect in order to advance. In SatAM, they are used to temporarily boost Sonic's speed. In Sonic Unleashed and later games that use the Boost mechanic, they are also used to boost Sonic's speed by giving him Boost Energy. In Sonic the Comic, Rings fuel Sonic's transformations into Super Sonic, and the bigger ones leading to Special Stages from the games also appear here. They were referenced in at least the latter appearance, and I'd imaging they would be in the others as well (although I'm not sure why that would make a difference).

I didn't actually count rings as a game mechanic anyways, since they're items. All of the things you mentioned, I wouldn't really count as mechanics. I don't think rings are ever used as health points out of Sonic game.

This statement by Shadye actually disproves the definition of "game mechanic" that @ Kirby Dragons provided, which you're basing your argument off of (or at least I would assume so). It says that "game mechanics" are considered non-canon, and yet here we have Shadye directly referring to extra lives. This leaves only the definition that says that a game mechanic is anything that is designed for interacting with the game state.

Last time I checked, there weren't any extra lives in Paper Mario, meaning that they are non-canon. And the statement was Shadye was meant comically, as a fourth-wall breaking joke. He was referring to the gameplay that you used in the Mario platformers. In cutscenes, the only time you would see a game mechanic is if it was meant as a joke, something you wouldn't take seriously. Comedic events shouldn't be analyzed here. In pretty much every non-comedic event/statement in a cutscene, there are no game mechanics seen.

Jumping, for example. It's a *method* to *interact* with the *game state* (you press A, and Mario jumps).

This isn't game mechanics. Mario jumping isn't you interacting with Mario, it's Mario jumping. The interaction part is you pressing A, the result of interaction is the action of the jump.

 

[Munomario777]

I didn't actually count rings as a game mechanic anyways, since they're items. All of the things you mentioned, I wouldn't really count as mechanics. I don't think rings are ever used as health points out of Sonic game.

...
Have you even played a Sonic game? Rings serve as health points in every main series Sonic game since the original. The only real difference between Rings and other health systems is that they can be picked up again, but I don't see how that affects their status as a health system.

Last time I checked, there weren't any extra lives in Paper Mario, meaning that they are non-canon. And the statement was Shadye was meant comically, as a fourth-wall breaking joke. He was referring to the gameplay that you used in the Mario platformers. In cutscenes, the only time you would see a game mechanic is if it was meant as a joke, something you wouldn't take seriously. Comedic events shouldn't be analyzed here. In pretty much every non-comedic event/statement in a cutscene, there are no game mechanics seen.

Super Paper Mario is a game that has an infinite number of retries after dying, or in other words, an infinite number of extra lives. Why does something being funny inherently make it non-canon? If that's the case, then Cubot's entire voice chip subplot in Sonic Colors (among many other things in that game) is non-canon. It's ridiculous to dismiss a good portion of a game's plot as non-canon just because it's written in a comedic fashion.

This isn't game mechanics. Mario jumping isn't you interacting with Mario, it's Mario jumping. The interaction part is you pressing A, the result of interaction is the action of the jump.

Yes, it is. "Interact" means to "act in such a way as to have an effect on another". You act by pressing a button, and the effect is Mario jumping.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

...
Have you even played a Sonic game? Rings serve as health points in every main series Sonic game since the original. The only real difference between Rings and other health systems is that they can be picked up again, but I don't see how that affects their status as a health system.

Yeah, I know. I said that they weren't health points out of a Sonic game.

Super Paper Mario is a game that has an infinite number of retries after dying, or in other words, an infinite number of extra lives. Why does something being funny inherently make it non-canon? If that's the case, then Cubot's entire voice chip subplot in Sonic Colors (among many other things in that game) is non-canon. It's ridiculous to dismiss a good portion of a game's plot as non-canon just because it's written in a comedic fashion.

If that's true, then why did Shadye say that Mario didn't have extra lives? And he was comedically fourth-wall breaking, meaning that he was referring to gameplay only.

Yes, it is. "Interact" means to "act in such a way as to have an effect on another". You act by pressing a button, and the effect is Mario jumping.

You failed to disprove my point. Plugging what you said into the definition, jumping is the effect that was done as a result of the action, which is pressing the button. The act of an interaction is what's actually the interaction. The effect isn't the interaction, it's a result. Pressing the button is the only interaction.

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, I know. I said that they weren't health points out of a Sonic game.

They are used to speed Sonic up temporarily in other media, however, among all of the other functions I listed. Also, again, there's the cutscene in Sonic Boom that references the main function of the Rings (Sonic takes damage, he loses Rings; Knuckles slaps Sonic in the back, Sonic loses a Ring).

If that's true, then why did Shadye say that Mario didn't have extra lives? And he was comedically fourth-wall breaking, meaning that he was referring to gameplay only.

The Shadye in question said that because of a misunderstanding. See, in Super Paper Mario, Mario is collecting the Pure Hearts, which each open a door to the next stage (each of which takes place in a different dimension, by the way). The seventh door happens to lead to the Underwhere, which is normally only accessible by getting a "game over". Naturally, the Shadye was under the impression that Mario accessed the Underwhere by running out of extra lives, since that's how the Underwhere usually works. However, since Mario used a magical door instead, he didn't have to run out of lives to access this dimension. Mario had accessed this area before that point, but that's because the dimension he was in at the time was destroyed, which I'd imagine caused him to "fall" into the next one, that being the Underwhere. Either that or the extra lives didn't work, since the last place he could have respawned at (that being Sammer's Kingdom) was destroyed. As for fourth-wall breaking, this isn't a case of actually breaking the fourth wall; that only happens when a character in-game references the audience, player, etc.

You failed to disprove my point. Plugging what you said into the definition, jumping is the effect that was done as a result of the action, which is pressing the button. The act of an interaction is what's actually the interaction. The effect isn't the interaction, it's a result. Pressing the button is the only interaction.

Let's bring up the complete definition, replacing the word "interact" with its definition:

Game mechanics are constructs of rules or methods designed for [acting in such a way as to have an effect on another] with the game state, thus providing gameplay.

Hooking this up to Mario's jump, we get:

Jumping is a method (that method being pressing the A button) designed for [pressing the A button to make Mario jump] within the game state, thus providing the gameplay of Mario jumping, landing on Goombas, etc.

In addition, another example is one that occurs directly after Mario jumps, that being Mario squashing a Goomba. Plugging this into the definition gives us:

Stomping on a Goomba is a construct of rules (one of which being: if Mario lands on a Goomba, it is squashed) designed for [landing on a Goomba to squash it] within the game state, thus providing the gameplay of the score going up, Mario bouncing upwards, etc.

Other examples include power-ups, breaking Brick Blocks, and such, but I think you get the idea.

 

[The Smashor]

What are the standings I can do?

 

[Munomario777]

What are the standings I can do?

You're free to post any matchup you'd like to, of course, but if you'd like to contribute to the bracket, you can do any of the matchups in the current round marked here with a letter. Currently, only Link versus Mewtwo is open in the current round, so that's a good matchup to do.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Jumping is a method (that method being pressing the A button) designed for [pressing the A button to make Mario jump] within the game state, thus providing the gameplay of Mario jumping, landing on Goombas, etc.

Jumping and pressing A are not both methods. You keep saying they're the same thing, when they're not. Pressing A is how you make Mario do something, and jumping is what Mario does. You shouldn't classify them the same way.

Stomping on a Goomba is a construct of rules (one of which being: if Mario lands on a Goomba, it is squashed) designed for [landing on a Goomba to squash it] within the game state, thus providing the gameplay of the score going up, Mario bouncing upwards, etc.

The score going up is not gameplay, because the score is a game mechanic that aids the gameplay. And bouncing on the Goomba's head isn't gameplay either, because you don't do anything while it's happening.

They are used to speed Sonic up temporarily in other media, however, among all of the other functions I listed. Also, again, there's the cutscene in Sonic Boom that references the main function of the Rings (Sonic takes damage, he loses Rings; Knuckles slaps Sonic in the back, Sonic loses a Ring).

Really, the only game mechanic aspect of a ring is when it's used as health. The speed boosts and such aren't game mechanics. And I'm sure there are plenty of examples in Sonic cutscenes where someone gets hurt without losing a ring.

 

[Munomario777]

Jumping and pressing A are not both methods. You keep saying they're the same thing, when they're not. Pressing A is how you make Mario do something, and jumping is what Mario does. You shouldn't classify them the same way.

They're both part of a *method*, or a procedure meant to accomplish something. The player's action in the procedure is pressing A, while Mario's (or the game's, depending on how you look at it) action is to jump in response to the player's action. This particular method is meant to accomplish getting Mario up to a greater height, whether it be to stomp on Goombas, cross gaps, avoid obstacles, etc.

The score going up is not gameplay, because the score is a game mechanic that aids the gameplay. And bouncing on the Goomba's head isn't gameplay either, because you don't do anything while it's happening.

Fair enough for the score, but landing on a Goomba requires aiming, control over Mario's momentum both prior to and after the bounce, holding the button in to bounce higher in some games, etc., all of which qualify as player action.

Anyway, we're getting into semantics now. Rather than debating what counts as a "game mechanic" or not, I suggest we actually look at each case (such as health bars and such) and determine whether or not we should include them in the discussion or not.

 

[Crystanium]

Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You said even without hitboxes, there would be no difference. I stated that using physics versus hit points and hitboxes is a difference because the former is not restricted to simply one form of attack. If you punch an object, the object is receiving force. The softer you strike it, the lower the force; the harder, the higher the force. This isn't so in video games where an attack will always produce the same amount of damage. Different games will always produce either an increase or decrease in damage or knockback. This is only comparable to reality, but one game alone is not.

So it is with video games. There are only health bars or meters because it's a game mechanic. In one game, Mario may receive up to six hits. In another, he may receive up to one. In fact, along with extra lives, Donkey Kong can also buy an extra heart so that he can take damage three times. Oddly enough, too, is the fact that if Donkey Kong has Diddy with him, but takes the hit twice, it's Diddy who "dies", not Donkey Kong. That doesn't make any sense. These are game mechanics.

Simply put, if you use hit points and I'm using physics to determine such and such, it's not going to work. I don't know what 1 HP means in reality.

Fair enough. Balloons are really just a paint job for extra lives, though, since they function exactly the same, and anything that happened before you died (i.e. you killing an enemy) is reverted upon using a Balloon. It's basically a "do-over button", as if the game "rewinded" back to the last checkpoint. I'm aware that hit points being restored is a game mechanic; everything that happens in a game is technically one. However, I do believe that some game mechanics should be omitted, and that this should be decided on a case-by-case basis. For instance, hit points vs. one-ups. Hit points are the beating a character can take before they die, which is important information in this context, so we keep them. One-ups are another try at a given situation, but appear to take place in either an alternate version of that adventure or as if it was "rewinded". This doesn't make much sense, and it was agreed a while back that extra lives and such aren't being taken into account anyways, so we omit one-ups. Of course, it's different if the character is revived in real time or something of that nature (such as the Fairy Bottles from The Legend of Zelda), since that has a good reason for happening and has no indication of being "rewinded".

It doesn't make sense, again, for something like Squawk's or banana juice to be a game mechanic, but balloons are. I'm not sure how to translate balloons into the real world, honestly. I can understand that by popping, it's equivalent to saying, "The balloon popped. It's ruined. So it is with you." I personally disregard extra lives myself. They probably served as a way for the player to get through the game and have as many tries before game over. This was something Scott was going to put in Five Nights At Freddy's, but withheld. It's a game mechanic.

Again, if game mechanics are stripped, characters cannot do anything they do in gameplay. I don't see any real reason to omit all gameplay mechanics rather than judging each one individually. As for character health varying, inconsistencies between games are nothing unique to HP. Mario's jumping height, jumping techniques, running speed, ability to pick things up (or lack thereof), damage dealt by attacks, and many more variables change between games. Thus, we must pick the most consistent one (i.e. the one that appears most often). In Mario's case, that means that he uses the power-ups as hit points, he can't heal in water, and he doesn't take damage from falling great heights.

Let me help you understand my perspective. Mario is a human. Humans can jump. Therefore, Mario can jump. Link can't jump, except when necessary. That right there is a game mechanic because Link should be able to jump at any time. Does this mean we're going to prevent Link from jumping in this discussion? No.

That's because the health bars function more as how many hits until the next phase rather than the boss's total health. It's meant to surprise the player, not to represent the boss's total health.[/quote]

This demonstrates that hit points are a game mechanic. "I only have 1 HP left, but I am going to rule the Mushroom Kingdom!" *receives 99 damage, though the other 98 doesn't lead into the next phase of battle*

This statement by Shadye actually disproves the definition of "game mechanic" that @ Kirby Dragons provided, which you're basing your argument off of (or at least I would assume so). It says that "game mechanics" are considered non-canon, and yet here we have Shadye directly referring to extra lives.

I haven't been paying attention to Kirby Dragons. If we use the definition of canon as provided by Wikipedia, then yes, extra lives are non-canon, as it is not accepted as part of the story. Shayde could be playing as ShadowLBlue suggests. Or, maybe there are extra lives in the Marioverse, which would make sense for Donkey Kong as well, considering Donkey Kong and Mario have the same origin. Shayde would be the exception.

Yes, because the first person is dead in the middle of the stage, whereas the second is still battling. Jango Fett and Boba Fett from Star Wars are in a similar situation (Boba is Jango's cloned son), but they're clearly not the same person.

I should have been clearer. I was referring to a molecular level. For all we know, souls exist in Borderlands, so the soul of the dead transfers into the new body, making the character the same.

 

[Munomario777]

@Dryn I am not saying that HP is not a "game mechanic". I am saying that we should not omit something merely because it qualifies as a "game mechanic".
With that said, I suggest we must be on from the semantics and instead look at each case individually and determine whether or not they should be included in this discussion, and why they should or should not.

 

[The Smashor]

I don't know much about link, but I think he would win

 

[Munomario777]

I don't know much about link, but I think he would win

Yeah, especially with his three-day invincibility thanks to Chateau Romani + Magic Armor.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn I am not saying that HP is not a "game mechanic". I am saying that we should not omit something merely because it qualifies as a "game mechanic".
With that said, I suggest we must be on from the semantics and instead look at each case individually and determine whether or not they should be included in this discussion, and why they should or should not.

I thin we both agree on the same thing, but are confused by what's being said. I will state what I think in a clearer manner, though I think you might have the gist of it.

All characters possess energy, or "the strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity". (OED - Energy) In-game, characters may experience the liberty of receiving large amounts of damage before succumbing to fatigue or death. This is where I disregard such thing. For example, if Link jumped off the bridge leading to Gerudo Valley in Ocarina of Time and hit the water below, would he sustain injuries? Probably, especially with his head exposed like that. If he went further to the left and hit the ground below instead, he'd either die on impact, enter a coma, or become a paralytic for the rest of his life.

This would be true for any character who is not protected by something, whether it be Samus' energy shield, Sonic's super form, Ganondorf's dark barrier, &c. Mario can prevent damage, either by using a starman or some other equivalent. Link can do the same, at least with the magic armor in The Wind Waker or Nayru's Love in OoT. (I disregard the magic armor in Twilight Princess because Link's head is exposed. I think the parts of his body that are covered are protected.) Donkey Kong can prevent this as well, due to the banana juice, which grants him protection from injuries for ten hits, though he's vulnerable to lava as well.

There seems to be some inconsistency with DK's invincibility, though. In order to have a blue flame, the temperature must reach at least 11,726.9°C. The surface of the Sun is 5,504.85°C. Think about that. Well, there's a level in DKCR where the word "basalt" is used for the name, so perhaps the reason why DK is invulnerable to those orange-colored flames is because they're not as hot. A flame is usually 1,000°C. Basaltic lava has a temperature of approximately 1,300°C. So that might explain why lava kills DK with the banana juice, but orange flames don't. So DK would at least be able to survive heat under 1,300°C.

Aside from these protective items/upgrades, a lot of characters would die from the extreme heat. So I'm fine with power-ups protecting otherwise vulnerable characters, but hit points, I don't consider anything more than a game mechanic. Again, all I see that can be drawn from hit points is "the strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity".

Yeah, especially with his three-day invincibility thanks to Chateau Romani + Magic Armor.

Going by The Wind Waker for the Wii U, which replaces the original for the Game Cube, this particular magic armor is sustained by rupees. Link could use Nayru's Love or even magic cape, though.

 

[Munomario777]

@Dryn
Ah, I see. If you think about it, though, most hit point systems are due to items/armor/etc. Mario, for example, has the Super Mushroom and other power-ups as his hit points. Link has his magical Heart Containers, Kirby has food items, Sonic has Rings, Mega Man presumably has his metal plating, which is repaired via pickups, etc. Perhaps a character's health bar running out just means that they're unprotected, and they're really at average toughness without these upgrades. With characters where this isn't the case, such as Bowser, I agree that this does represent their overall durability.

On the subject of Magic Armor, the one from WWHD drains Magic like in the original game, but it also has a Rupee limitation. However, the Rupees aren't drained over time like in TP; they're simply knocked out of Link whenever he takes a hit. If either Link's Magic Meter or his Rupee count runs out, the Magic Armor no longer works.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I don't know much about link, but I think he would win

I don't think Mewtwo has a chance at beating Link, especially if (according to what I believe we've agreed on):

• Mewtwo lacks his anime specific powers (mass memory wiping, among other things)
• PP counts and is not a game mechanic
• Link has magic armor (powered by rupees) and his 3 day magic meter he can combine with a couple of invincibility items. That's not even addressing his offense.

I really don't see how anyone but Sonic and and maybe Rosalina can overcome his 3 day invincibility.

If I can, I might do a more detailed Link vs Mewtwo later if no one else wants to, but for now I propose we move on to the next round of the loser's bracket unless Kirby_Dragons and @ Nerdicon disagree on Composite Link beating Mewtwo.
The match-ups for people who don't want to click back a few pages:
Mr. Video Game Himself vs The Visionary
The Hero of Hyrule vs Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire
The Tactician vs The Blue Bomber
Goddess of Light vs The eight inch Eldritch Abomination

I know we'll break these match-ups down later, but off the top of my head I'd think the winners would be
over
-Maybe my opinion will change when I finally finish Xenoblade Saga (102 hours!) but I don't think even Shulk's visions will save him from Mario's ridiculous group of items and projectiles. Shulk's visions are amazing but I still think he's at a disadvantage (NOT saying he can't win) against anyone with good projectile game.
over
I know @Drynn and @ Kirby Dragons disagree, but I don't see overcomes Link's defense (Magic Armor + 250,000 rupees; Romani Chateau + Magic Cape/Cane of Byrna + Nayru's Love + Mirror Shield) and he can catch up to her offensively with his magic rods and Medallions plus the Pegasus boots (presuming she's not using speed boost, which the bombos medallion can stop her from gaining enough momentum to use).

EDIT: For those wondering where the 250k, comes from, in the anniversary edition of Four Swords Adventure, Link can have a max of 999,999 rupees. Munomario said that they all don't share the same wallet since they're 4 different links, which makes sense to me in hindsight. So I just divided by 4 and rounded up.

over
I think one of Robin's biggest advantages is the Counter skill. Megaman almost completely negates that. And anyone who's been reading knows I love Robin, but even with my limited knowledge of Megaman's weapons, I don't think getting into a shootout with Megaman's a good idea for anyone but Samus. Waiting for someone to break down his skill set though.

Still undecided on Palutena vs Kirby, although leaning slightly towards Kirby. Like Link (and to a lesser degree, the Mario Bros) Kirby's got a handful of impenetrable (or nigh-impenetrable) guards, can move fast, lots of projectiles, can fly, and the one advantage of being 8 inches tall is he's hard to hit.

BTW, I think we talked about this earlier, but never really reached a conclusion so since everyone but the guy who had the Salmance logo has been on here frequently, I think it's a good time to bring it back up:

I think (non hyper nova) Kirby should be allowed to swallow attacks and gain their properties. In the event he's being attacked by more a physical skill like Ness swinging his bat or charged up punch from Little Mac, he gains said item/attack but doesn't permanently take the item from the opponent. Also, as he's not in hypernova form, he can't absorb physical items that would be too large for his mouth, although he can always absorb things horizontally, so that wouldn't be a problem with most things.

Thoughts?

 

[Munomario777]

@ ShadowLBlue I agree with the matchups, but I think Kirby should get whatever Copy Ability from the list of Copy Abilities in the Kirby games fits that character best; that's how it works in the Kirby games after all. For instance, if Kirby inhaled Ness's yo-yo, he would turn into Yo-Yo Kirby, Sonic would probably give him Wheel, etc. Since Kirby already has all of his regular Copy Abilities ready to go thanks to the Copy Essence Deluxe, though, this is sort of obsolete.

 

[Nerdicon]

I'm-a-back!
I feel Palutena beats Rosalina easily using Mega Laser given that I've only got one counterargument. And that's that she wouldn't go for Mega Laser because its not in her nature. Kinda pointless if you ask me.
So I'll do...
vs
FIGHT!!!

's attack: Mega Laser
An instant long-range laser that goes through reflecting surfaces. Very large. Moderate Damage
's counter: N/A
The attack is quick enough to catch just about everyone off guard, and even if Kirby did have time to react he would probably try to reflect it with Mirror which wouldn't work

's attack: Time for a sacrifice!
Palutena has a bunch of different light-based attacks to use that I detailed last post
's counter: Mirror + Warp Star
By hopping on the blazing fast Warp Star, Kirby could use his mirror projectiles to reflect Palutena's shots, attack Palutena, and move towards her!

's attack: Shield your eyes!
A flash bang effect, causes temporary blindness
's counter: Uh oh...
If Kirby was close this would certainly hit him, but since the Warp Star is controlled by thought he might end up flying all over the place! Kirby has the tendency to overreact like that. Palutena might even get hit by the warp star.

's attack: Black Hole!
A black hole-esque attack that pulls enemies in for further attacks
's counter: You're too slow!
Kirby on the warp star could easily avoid getting caught by the black hole

's attack: Explosive Flame
A large explosive flame, nothing to see here
's counter: Fly away/ A few abilities
Kirby would constantly be moving via warp star or wheel so he's unlikely to be caught by the slowly expanding flame, if he's wheel that'll only power it up. Not to mention Leaf, Ice, Mirror, Stone, and Bell all could avoid damage as well.

's attack: Meteor Shower
A rain of meteor like projectiles that hit in a wide area
's counter: Invincible guards/ Flying/ Hypernova
Kirby could use any number of invincible guards or attacks to avoid the attack, just fly out of range, or use Hypernova to suck the meteors out of the air and shoot them at Palutena

's attack: Glam Blaster
A super giant laser of mega death and cookies Takes a long time to charge
's counter: Hammer Flip
If Kirby knew what was coming he could Hypernova it and finish the match right then and there, but he doesn't so he'd probably go for the free hammer flip
's counter x2: Glam Blaster + Super/Aries Armor
Now Palutena can't be interrupted from her charging, even if she does take a massive beating in the process
's counter x3: Hypernova
Now would be when Kirby switched to Hypernova and swallowed the beam, then reflected it back at Palutena. Alternatively he could use wheel, Snow Bowl, or flying away

Well, Palutena can basically do nothing, on to Kirby!

's attack: Hammah Time
Kirby gets a damaging hammer with plenty of power, it's slow speed could be counteracted by the warp star, charging up hammer flips and then flying in at the last second for massive damage
's counter: Super Armor
By using super armor, she could easily counterattack with her twirl attack due to not taking knockback. She would still take massive damage though

's attack: HYPERNOVA SAYONARA SUCKAAAAA!
The powerful suction powers of Hypernova can swallow just about anything, as things shrink as they get closer to the vortex
's counter: Warp
Even if Kirby could swallow Palutena, she could Warp away to avoid getting defeated

's attack: Baton Kirby!
Kirby fires a yellow beam from his baton that gives him control over the target, like moving them around and blowing them up
's counter: Reflect Barrier
A reflective barrier to send the beam back at Kirby
's counter x2: You're too slow!
Kirby is zipping around at incredibly high speeds, the attack he shot at the barrier (if she even used it in time) would completely miss him. She'd get hit eventually

's Finisher: Baton Toss
Tossing the baton causes the character hit to explode. You won't be walking that off any time soon

Summary
Palutena blew up in the end, if that's not a win I don't know what is. Palutena was only able to get a good hit in with the Mega Laser, but after that it all went downhill

Winner: KIRBY!!

It's good to be back...

 

[Munomario777]

@ Nerdicon I do agree with Palutena VS Kirby, but I don't think we should edit the match ups until we have a solid conclusion on the whole Rosalina vs Palutena deal. Sure, Palutena could use the Mega Laser, but again, I don't think she necessarily would. Besides her preference to negotiate over using brute force, she also seems like the type of fighter that prefers to analyze the opponent. She relies on her knowledge in combat/when aiding Pit in combat, and she would likely try to find knowledge on Rosalina. She would let her opponent make the first move, to try and find a weak spot. Since she has no prior knowledge of Rosalina, this would be crucial. Unfortunately for her though, Rosalina's first move would likely be a black hole, Super Star, or another powerful attack due to her more direct fighting style. Palutena may have the ability to win the match with her Mega Laser, but so does Rosalina with her black holes. Thus, it's simply a matter of who would attack first, and my proverbial money is on Rosalina.

Also, I believe the anime short Palutena's Revolting Dinner is really the only time we've seen her use Powers (as well as some of the weapons such as Claws), is it not? In that short, we see Palutena do something fancy with her staff and call out the Power's name each time she uses a Power, which takes a couple of seconds. In addition, she seems to be rather panicky, shown when she panicks over a bunch of carrots. She doesn't use her Powers until she regains her focus, but against Rosalina (who is much more calm and collected), it would be too late.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Nerdicon I do agree with Palutena VS Kirby, but I don't think we should edit the match ups until we have a solid conclusion on the whole Rosalina vs Palutena deal. Sure, Palutena could use the Mega Laser, but again, I don't think she necessarily would. Besides her preference to negotiate over using brute force, she also seems like the type of fighter that prefers to analyze the opponent. She relies on her knowledge in combat/when aiding Pit in combat, and she would likely try to find knowledge on Rosalina. She would let her opponent make the first move, to try and find a weak spot. Since she has no prior knowledge of Rosalina, this would be crucial. Unfortunately for her though, Rosalina's first move would likely be a black hole, Super Star, or another powerful attack due to her more direct fighting style. Palutena may have the ability to win the match with her Mega Laser, but so does Rosalina with her black holes. Thus, it's simply a matter of who would attack first, and my proverbial money is on Rosalina.

Also, I believe the anime short Palutena's Revolting Dinner is really the only time we've seen her use Powers (as well as some of the weapons such as Claws), is it not? In that short, we see Palutena do something fancy with her staff and call out the Power's name each time she uses a Power, which takes a couple of seconds. In addition, she seems to be rather panicky, shown when she panicks over a bunch of carrots. She doesn't use her Powers until she regains her focus, but against Rosalina (who is much more calm and collected), it would be too late.

I'm not taking sides here, but Palutena should quickly be able to find out info about Rosalina. She can read minds, use the Power of Weak-Point Exposure, and use Weak-Point Reticle.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm not taking sides here, but Palutena should quickly be able to find out info about Rosalina. She can read minds, use the Power of Weak-Point Exposure, and use Weak-Point Reticle.

I haven't been able to find a source for Palutena reading people's minds. I have heard of an instance where she told Pit she was reading his mind to scare him, but that's different from actually reading minds. Even then, she said it was through laurel crowns (the leafy things angels like Pit wear) according to my sources, and Rosalina only wears regular crowns. As for Weak-Point Exposure and Weak-Point Reticle, again, those are Powers, which according to the anime, have quite the startup at least when Palutena uses them directly.

 

[Nerdicon]

I haven't been able to find a source for Palutena reading people's minds. I have heard of an instance where she told Pit she was reading his mind to scare him, but that's different from actually reading minds. Even then, she said it was through laurel crowns (the leafy things angels like Pit wear) according to my sources, and Rosalina only wears regular crowns. As for Weak-Point Exposure and Weak-Point Reticle, again, those are Powers, which according to the anime, have quite the startup at least when Palutena uses them directly.

Palutena was able to tell Pit about the weaknesses of Aurum enemies which she had just met, like the Iota (the one that shoots the energy balls at you that you can melee back at them). As for the start-up thing, do you think Lumas also have to chat a little bit and fly around before exploding? Not to mention any inhibitions about battle in a thread about fighting seems like it should be left out. Practically every character in Smash (bar the villains) wouldn't just attack on sight. Anyone with half a brain would try to talk it out first. So I feel this is one portion of the character's personality that should be left ignored. This is, after all, a do or die situation: a relatively intelligent character like Palutena would know that they had to fight

 

[Munomario777]

Palutena was able to tell Pit about the weaknesses of Aurum enemies which she had just met, like the Iota (the one that shoots the energy balls at you that you can melee back at them). As for the start-up thing, do you think Lumas also have to chat a little bit and fly around before exploding? Not to mention any inhibitions about battle in a thread about fighting seems like it should be left out. Practically every character in Smash (bar the villains) wouldn't just attack on sight. Anyone with half a brain would try to talk it out first. So I feel this is one portion of the character's personality that should be left ignored. This is, after all, a do or die situation: a relatively intelligent character like Palutena would know that they had to fight

Actually, Palutena explained the Aurum Biota in the second chapter where the Aurum are encountered, that being chapter sixteen. In chapter fifteen (when the Aurum are first encountered), this happens:

Hades asks Palutena if she knows anything about the enemies, but all she replies is that they aren't from this world.

In other words, when she first meets these otherworldly foes, she doesn't know much about them other than the fact that they're, well, otherworldly. It's only one and a half chapters later that she's studied them enough to provide a good description. As for the startup time, the Star Bits do take a second to fill up, but it's very small (especially since it's only one black hole rather than an entire galaxy or planet, which the Lumas usually transform into). I do agree that they should know they have to fight by this point, but Palutena would still want to gather knowledge at the start of the fight.

 

[Nerdicon]

Actually, Palutena explained the Aurum Biota in the second chapter where the Aurum are encountered, that being chapter sixteen. In chapter fifteen (when the Aurum are first encountered), this happens:

Yet it was the first time she saw one, so most still wouldn't know any information about the enemy. Upon first seeing the biota she already knew it's weakness. When she said she didn't know what was going on, she probably meant she didn't know who or what the aurum were. This is supported by Pyrrhon answering her question by calling them the Aurum.

In other words, when she first meets these otherworldly foes, she doesn't know much about them other than the fact that they're, well, otherworldly. It's only one and a half chapters later that she's studied them enough to provide a good description.

Since when was it said that Palutena did any research on the Aurum? That's just making assumptions as there are more examples of Palutena recognizing enemies on sight then anything else. She's never researched anything.

As for the startup time, the Star Bits do take a second to fill up, but it's very small (especially since it's only one black hole rather than an entire galaxy or planet, which the Lumas usually transform into). I do agree that they should know they have to fight by this point, but Palutena would still want to gather knowledge at the start of the fight.

But she can use a Mega Laser at the beginning with no repercussions so she would obviously do this before anything else. It makes logical sense to use Mega Laser first as it's instant, not even Sonic could move out of the way in time to take no damage if it was used at the beginning of the match, unless his first action was moving out of the way.

 

[Munomario777]

Yet it was the first time she saw one, so most still wouldn't know any information about the enemy. Upon first seeing the biota she already knew it's weakness. When she said she didn't know what was going on, she probably meant she didn't know who or what the aurum were. This is supported by Pyrrhon answering her question by calling them the Aurum.

And this is the first time she's seeing Rosalina, so she wouldn't know any information about her. Palutena had probably seen the Biota fighting in other areas before telling Pit about them; this is a threat encompassing a wide area (possibly the entire earth), not just the mission sites Pit goes to, so there would be plenty for her to examine. As for the name, I believe she came up with names for them because their real names were impossible to pronounce or something along those lines.

Since when was it said that Palutena did any research on the Aurum? That's just making assumptions as there are more examples of Palutena recognizing enemies on sight then anything else. She's never researched anything.

Then how did she not know anything about the enemy and then suddenly know their weak spot? There are examples of Palutena recognizing things on sight, but this is not one of them.

But she can use a Mega Laser at the beginning with no repercussions so she would obviously do this before anything else. It makes logical sense to use Mega Laser first as it's instant, not even Sonic could move out of the way in time to take no damage if it was used at the beginning of the match, unless his first action was moving out of the way.

As I said earlier, whenever we see Palutena use a Power (rather than Pit using one), she has to do something with her staff for a second to use the Power, providing the startup time for Rosalina to attack first. As a side note, I think Sonic would either go Super Sonic or get up to speed at the beginning of a battle, since that's his fighting style.

 

[Crystanium]

Link's physical strength in Ocarina of Time

Link already has incredible, physical strength outside the use of strength enhancements, but I think the two types of strength enhancements Link should have are the golden gauntlets from Ocarina of Time and the power bracelets from The Wind Waker. Other strength enhancements are ignored, simply because additional gloves or bracelets would hinder Link, due to an inability to utilize his fingers. Imagine wearing a few gloves over one hand and see how much you can do. Link's items work nothing like Samus', where hers stack on each other.

I will assume Link stands at 170.18 cm. (5'7") in his adult form for any adult incarnation. The obelisk in OoT has a marble design. There is a specific marking where Link's head reaches. So what I did was I took a screen cap of Link at a distance to see the full obelisk and then took another where Link's head is touching the marking. With the one at the distance, I took a colored line in Paint to mark where Link's height reaches. Then I counted vertically the amount of pixels that make up Link's height. Link is 52 pixels. Ignoring the pointed parts of the obelisk, it stands at a total of 239 px., or 782.17 cm.

The obelisk possesses the form of a hexagonal prism. This means I need to know the height, which I have, and the side length, which I ended up with 92 px. This gives the length of 301.09 cm. Using the equation of V = 3 sqrt(3)/2 * a^2 * h, this gives us a volume of 184,221,777.82 cm^3. Next, I will add the top part and double it, since the bottom has the same volume. The height for the hexagonal pyramid is 12 px. I will assume the same length.

The volume equation is similar, which is sqrt(3)/2 * a^2 * h. This gives us a volume of 3,083,210 cm^3. Adding both, we end up with a total of 187,304,987.49 cm^3. Because the obelisk looks like marble, the density of marble is 2.6 g/cm^3. Multiplying this by the volume results in a total mass of 486.99 metric tons.

I'll get back to more of this later, since I'm going to do something else. I personally think Samus versus Link is a spite match, but people want to know as much as they want to know who would win between Samus and Master Chief. I'll try to cover this later and add the additional strength from the power bracelets from The Wind Waker.

 

[Nerdicon]

And this is the first time she's seeing Rosalina, so she wouldn't know any information about her. Palutena had probably seen the Biota fighting in other areas before telling Pit about them; this is a threat encompassing a wide area (possibly the entire earth), not just the mission sites Pit goes to, so there would be plenty for her to examine. As for the name, I believe she came up with names for them because their real names were impossible to pronounce or something along those lines.

I phrased that poorly, Chapter 16 was the first time the Biota appeared yet she knew it's weak point at first sight. It is unreasonable to assume that Palutena had seen the Biota before, as the Aurum warships seem to be the main threat that are harvesting the Earth. The Aurum Army are a sort of defense force, so the Biota and by extension the entire Aurum army besides the warships are unknown to Palutena before she meets them, so she was able to see the weakness of the Biota at first sight. Not that it matters given that using the Mega Laser is Palutena's best option 100% of the time at the start of the match.

As I said earlier, whenever we see Palutena use a Power (rather than Pit using one), she has to do something with her staff for a second to use the Power, providing the startup time for Rosalina to attack first. As a side note, I think Sonic would either go Super Sonic or get up to speed at the beginning of a battle, since that's his fighting style.

Source? There's no example of this as Palutena has never used any of Pit's power's, we only assumed she could because it makes sense. As such she should use the powers like Pit does, in KIU using the Mega Laser causes it to activate instantly with minor endlag. So no, Rosalina couldn't react. Even if there was any start-up it takes Rosalina a few seconds to fill up a Luma and position it right.

I feel your arguments are pretty weak, can we just get a tally on how many people agree with you? I mean really.

 

[Munomario777]

I phrased that poorly, Chapter 16 was the first time the Biota appeared yet she knew it's weak point at first sight. It is unreasonable to assume that Palutena had seen the Biota before, as the Aurum warships seem to be the main threat that are harvesting the Earth. The Aurum Army are a sort of defense force, so the Biota and by extension the entire Aurum army besides the warships are unknown to Palutena before she meets them, so she was able to see the weakness of the Biota at first sight. Not that it matters given that using the Mega Laser is Palutena's best option 100% of the time at the start of the match.

Ah, okay. Still, they function nearly identically to the Collins of the Underworld Army, and those have been with the series since the first game. She likely took what she knew about that enemy and applied it to this very similar enemy. Telling Pit that he can knock back the shots with melee attacks isn't too out of this world to begin with, anyways.

Source? There's no example of this as Palutena has never used any of Pit's power's, we only assumed she could because it makes sense. As such she should use the powers like Pit does, in KIU using the Mega Laser causes it to activate instantly with minor endlag. So no, Rosalina couldn't react. Even if there was any start-up it takes Rosalina a few seconds to fill up a Luma and position it right.

Meh, fair enough. Still, there is another way Rosalina could counter this. The laser seems rather small in width, and I don't believe it can be aimed. Thus, Rosalina shouldn't have too much trouble moving out of the way before it did too much damage, especially with the extra hit points/invincibility provided by power-ups. Also, one small black hole wouldn't take several seconds to fill up; considering how it takes only a couple of seconds to fill up a Luma to create an entire galaxy with multiple black holes, cake planets, lasers, an atmosphere, kitchen utensil planets, Star Bits (so some of them aren't even being transformed to begin with!), the Launch Star to actually access the planet, and even a whole Power Star, one tiny little black hole would be extremely quick.

I feel your arguments are pretty weak, can we just get a tally on how many people agree with you? I mean really.

Okay, I think a vote would is in order. @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ ShadowLBlue , what's your stance?

 

[Nerdicon]

Ah, okay. Still, they function nearly identically to the Collins of the Underworld Army, and those have been with the series since the first game. She likely took what she knew about that enemy and applied it to this very similar enemy. Telling Pit that he can knock back the shots with melee attacks isn't too out of this world to begin with, anyways.

Still Isn't obvious though, it could just use slow moving projectiles for all she knows. Not to mention Collins only shoot Phils in Uprising, in the original they circled around Collin and could be killed in any way, as opposed to being reflect bait.

Meh, fair enough. Still, there is another way Rosalina could counter this. The laser seems rather small in width, and I don't believe it can be aimed. Thus, Rosalina shouldn't have too much trouble moving out of the way before it did too much damage, especially with the extra hit points/invincibility provided by power-ups. Also, one small black hole wouldn't take several seconds to fill up; considering how it takes only a couple of seconds to fill up a Luma to create an entire galaxy with multiple black holes, cake planets, lasers, an atmosphere, kitchen utensil planets, Star Bits (so some of them aren't even being transformed to begin with!), the Launch Star to actually access the planet, and even a whole Power Star, one tiny little black hole would be extremely quick.

The laser is pretty wide, enough to cover the grand majority of a hallway in Kid Icarus Uprising, and it can be aimed. It's instant and hits around 6 times a second. Rosalina has less than 1/3 of a second to avoid dying.

 

[Munomario777]

Still Isn't obvious though, it could just use slow moving projectiles for all she knows. Not to mention Collins only shoot Phils in Uprising, in the original they circled around Collin and could be killed in any way, as opposed to being reflect bait.

Yes, and slow moving projectiles can be reflected, as shown by the Collins. Fifteen chapters of Uprising would be enough for Palutena to pick up on the Collins' projectiles being able to be reflected.

The laser is pretty wide, enough to cover the grand majority of a hallway in Kid Icarus Uprising, and it can be aimed. It's instant and hits around 6 times a second. Rosalina has less than 1/3 of a second to avoid dying.

Well, this isn't a hallway; it's a ten-mile-wide battlefield. How wide are these hallways? Because it looks like that laser is only about Pit's width at most. Can it be aimed after it's been fired, or is it stuck in one place? Again, power-ups can either provide extra hits or invincibility, and can be applied in less than a second.

Anyway, I think the deciding factor here is where exactly the combatants start. The Mega Laser surely has a limited range, and the Lumas can travel far distances in a matter of a few seconds. Depending on the distance between the two, the battle could go either way. I think we should base it on the combatants. For example, a matchup such as, say, Mario VS Mega Man should start relatively close, since none of their attacks travel that far. Meanwhile, a matchup such as Sonic VS Rosalina (or Palutena VS Rosalina) should start a bit further apart, since Sonic's speed and Rosalina's Lumas allow either combatant to either deal with this gap or close it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm voting for .

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, this isn't a hallway; it's a ten-mile-wide battlefield. How wide are these hallways? Because it looks like that laser is only about Pit's width at most. Can it be aimed after it's been fired, or is it stuck in one place? Again, power-ups can either provide extra hits or invincibility, and can be applied in less than a second.

Anyway, I think the deciding factor here is where exactly the combatants start. The Mega Laser surely has a limited range, and the Lumas can travel far distances in a matter of a few seconds. Depending on the distance between the two, the battle could go either way. I think we should base it on the combatants. For example, a matchup such as, say, Mario VS Mega Man should start relatively close, since none of their attacks travel that far. Meanwhile, a matchup such as Sonic VS Rosalina (or Palutena VS Rosalina) should start a bit further apart, since Sonic's speed and Rosalina's Lumas allow either combatant to either deal with this gap or close it.

I was just saying that it covered a large area, a Monoeye and some change really. The mega laser is stuck in one spot after being fired. As I've said before the only game where Rosalina could store items, she had to drop them first, then pick it up. It would take at least a second

I feel this is true as well, but you should've set a fair standard before starting because now you might try to make this standard play into your opinion. I feel the characters should be close, maybe 5 meters apart at the start like a traditional duel. Maybe 50 meters to compensate for the projectiles.

 

[Munomario777]

I was just saying that it covered a large area, a Monoeye and some change really. The mega laser is stuck in one spot after being fired. As I've said before the only game where Rosalina could store items, she had to drop them first, then pick it up. It would take at least a second

Monoeye =/= a large area. If Rosalina had to drop the item, she could simply hold her arm forward while dropping it. It would come out of the front of her body and hit her hand, thus activating the power-up. This would be even faster if she simply held her hand directly on top of the part of her body where the power-up would emerge from, making the power-up application near instant (i.e. it comes out of her belly, so she holds her hand there and the power-up instantly touches her hand).

I feel this is true as well, but you should've set a fair standard before starting because now you might try to make this standard play into your opinion. I feel the characters should be close, maybe 5 meters apart at the start like a traditional duel. Maybe 50 meters to compensate for the projectiles.

Fair enough. I do think that Rosalina's speed in using a Starman via the method above would be quick enough to keep her alive, though (even if she does take a hit).

 

[Crystanium]

Okay, I think a vote would is in order. @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ ShadowLBlue , what's your stance?

I haven't been paying attention to the match. If it's Rosalina versus Palutena, I felt before that Rosalina isn't as much of a deal as sonicbrawler was making her out to be. I've played KI:U and know that Pit's special abilities come from Palutena herself, so I would put her on equal footing with Pit, only putting her above him in rank by virtue that he's the captain of her army. Again, I haven't been paying attention with the match between Rosalina and Palutena, but my debate with sonicbrawler produced no results to put Rosalina on a higher level than it was expected.

I normally avoid going with what the majority votes for because voting does not indicate who is actually the strongest, it only tells us who thinks would win. Sometimes a vote will suffice if everyone thinks it won't take much to explain why one character is more powerful than the next. I suppose I would choose Palutena, only because I know things about Pit, so again, I take what Pit can do and ascribe it to Palutena.

Edit: In The Wind Waker, Link is 99 px. tall. The height I will use for young Link incarnations will be 142.24 cm. (4'8"). The head-shaped object is not quite circular, but I will use the formula for spherical objects to give an approximate mass. The head is 296 px., or 425.28 cm. The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * r^3. The radius would be 212.64 cm. This gives us an approximate volume of 40,274,800.94 cm^3. I'm not sure what this boulder would be made of. I suppose we could work with granite, which has a density of 2.65 g/cm^3. This would make the boulder 106.73 metric tons. So composite Link should have a deadlift strength of 593.72 metric tons.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@ ShadowLBlue I agree with the matchups, but I think Kirby should get whatever Copy Ability from the list of Copy Abilities in the Kirby games fits that character best; that's how it works in the Kirby games after all. For instance, if Kirby inhaled Ness's yo-yo, he would turn into Yo-Yo Kirby, Sonic would probably give him Wheel, etc. Since Kirby already has all of his regular Copy Abilities ready to go thanks to the Copy Essence Deluxe, though, this is sort of obsolete.

Well they're are some attacks that don't match his copy abilities, plus Copy Essence Deluxe doesn't cover all of his abilities in less they were in another game besides KSSU.

As I said earlier, whenever we see Palutena use a Power (rather than Pit using one), she has to do something with her staff for a second to use the Power, providing the startup time for Rosalina to attack first. As a side note, I think Sonic would either go Super Sonic or get up to speed at the beginning of a battle, since that's his fighting style.

I disagree with this. I don't think it makes sense they'd work differently for Pit and not Palutena. Unless Pit was shown using powers in the anime without start up lag, I'd say we just go with them working how they do in the game.

As for if Palutena can read minds, I'd say no. I think she just has knowledge of almost everything in the Kid Icarus Universe. As for her identifying weaknesses of enemies she probably/definitely doesn't know, I think that's more just her being tactically smart. If she could read minds then I think they're are many places in the story she would have in order to assist Pit.

I was just saying that it covered a large area, a Monoeye and some change really. The mega laser is stuck in one spot after being fired. As I've said before the only game where Rosalina could store items, she had to drop them first, then pick it up. It would take at least a second

I feel this is true as well, but you should've set a fair standard before starting because now you might try to make this standard play into your opinion. I feel the characters should be close, maybe 5 meters apart at the start like a traditional duel. Maybe 50 meters to compensate for the projectiles.

I think it should depend on match-up. The goal is not to have starting postion give any character an advantage. For example Samus vs any non-Robin Fire Emblem character needs to be close enough that Samus can't quickly pummel them to death with projectiles, and Sonic needs to start far enough back that (assuming he doesn't just go Super to begin with) that people have a chance at reacting to him.

BTW, did I miss when we agreed Kirby gets anime only powers? Because Baton Kirby isn't from the games.
Also how would he use it since it lacks a copy essence deluxe.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

BTW, did I miss when we agreed Kirby gets anime only powers? Because Baton Kirby isn't from the games.
Also how would he use it since it lacks a copy essence deluxe.

We can use his anime powers. If it isn't in the game, that just means no contradiction.

And I only got the mind reading thing because Palutena and Pit were staying in telepathic contact throughout KI:U.

 

[Munomario777]

Well they're are some attacks that don't match his copy abilities, plus Copy Essence Deluxe doesn't cover all of his abilities in less they were in another game besides KSSU.

Which attacks are you referring to? As for the CED, good point. We were just giving him all of his Abilities for simplicity's sake, but now I'm thinking that perhaps we might limit it to Copy Abilities from KSSU. What does everyone else think?

I disagree with this. I don't think it makes sense they'd work differently for Pit and not Palutena. Unless Pit was shown using powers in the anime without start up lag, I'd say we just go with them working how they do in the game.

Fair enough.

As for if Palutena can read minds, I'd say no. I think she just has knowledge of almost everything in the Kid Icarus Universe. As for her identifying weaknesses of enemies she probably/definitely doesn't know, I think that's more just her being tactically smart. If she could read minds then I think they're are many places in the story she would have in order to assist Pit.

Agreed.

I think it should depend on match-up. The goal is not to have starting postion give any character an advantage. For example Samus vs any non-Robin Fire Emblem character needs to be close enough that Samus can't quickly pummel them to death with projectiles, and Sonic needs to start far enough back that (assuming he doesn't just go Super to begin with) that people have a chance at reacting to him.

Very true. What do you think would be a good distance for Palutena VS Rosalina, then?

BTW, did I miss when we agreed Kirby gets anime only powers? Because Baton Kirby isn't from the games.
Also how would he use it since it lacks a copy essence deluxe.

Basically, for contradictions, it's games > anime, but anime-exclusive content is usually OK. Good point about the CED, though.

We can use his anime powers. If it isn't in the game, that just means no contradiction.

Yup.

And I only got the mind reading thing because Palutena and Pit were staying in telepathic contact throughout KI:U.

Well, telepathic communication =/= the ability to read anyone's mind at will. I think once Palutena said it was through the laurel crowns (the leafy headwear worn by angels such as Pit).

 

[Nerdicon]

Kirby should be able to use any copy ability at will, there are plenty of other what-if scenarios in this thread. Disagree with me? In that case

• Samus should not have the bonuses of all her power suits in one
• Sonic can't store shields, or any of the wisps that aren't from lost world
• Robin can't change classes on the fly
• Palutena gets absolutely no powers
• Pit gets to stick with one weapon for the entirety of the discussion
• etc.

Point being, that there are already plenty of what-if scenarios that couldn't necessarily happen, but are counted onto the character because it would take away a key component of the character
By the way: Palutena has 3 votes versus 1 vote for Rosalina. The changed bracket should look like this.
ROUND 1 (COMPLETE)
VS-VS-VS-VS-VS-VS-VS-VS
----------|-----------------------|-----------------------|----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROUND 2 (COMPLETE)
VS--VS--VS--VS
----------|-----------------------|-----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------*------------------------------

ROUND 3 (COMPLETE)
VS--VS
----------|-----------------------|
-------------------------?-

ROUND 4 (COMPLETE)
VS ?
----------|
----------?-

LOSER'S BRACKET

ROUND 1 (CURRENT ROUND)
VS--VS--VS--VS
----------|-----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|
-------------------------P-----------------------------------

ROUND 2
VS----P--VS--VS--VS
----------|---------------------|-----------------------|----------------------|
---------S--------------------T---------------------U---------------------V---

ROUND 3
--S--VS----T--VS--?----U--VS--V
--------|--------------------|---------------------|
-------W------------------X-------------------Y---

ROUND 4
--W--VS--?----X--VS--Y
---------|--------------------|
--------Z-------------------a---

ROUND 5
--Z--VS--a--
-------|
------LW---

GRAND FINALS
VS--LW--
----------|
--CHAMPION!

 

[Munomario777]

Kirby should be able to use any copy ability at will, there are plenty of other what-if scenarios in this thread. Disagree with me? In that case

• Samus should not have the bonuses of all her power suits in one
• Sonic can't store shields, or any of the wisps that aren't from lost world
• Robin can't change classes on the fly
• Palutena gets absolutely no powers
• Pit gets to stick with one weapon for the entirety of the discussion
• etc.

Point being, that there are already plenty of what-if scenarios that couldn't necessarily happen, but are counted onto the character because it would take away a key component of the character

Very true.

By the way: Palutena has 3 votes versus 1 vote for Rosalina. The changed bracket should look like this.
ROUND 1 (COMPLETE)
VS-VS-VS-VS-VS-VS-VS-VS
----------|-----------------------|-----------------------|----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROUND 2 (COMPLETE)
VS--VS--VS--VS
----------|-----------------------|-----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------*------------------------------

ROUND 3 (COMPLETE)
VS--VS
----------|-----------------------|
-------------------------?-

ROUND 4 (COMPLETE)
VS ?
----------|
----------?-

LOSER'S BRACKET

ROUND 1 (CURRENT ROUND)
VS--VS--VS--VS
----------|-----------------------|-----------------------|-----------------------|
-------------------------P-----------------------------------

ROUND 2
VS----P--VS--VS--VS
----------|---------------------|-----------------------|----------------------|
---------S--------------------T---------------------U---------------------V---

ROUND 3
--S--VS----T--VS--?----U--VS--V
--------|--------------------|---------------------|
-------W------------------X-------------------Y---

ROUND 4
--W--VS--?----X--VS--Y
---------|--------------------|
--------Z-------------------a---

ROUND 5
--Z--VS--a--
-------|
------LW---

GRAND FINALS
VS--LW--
----------|
--CHAMPION!

As @Dryn pointed out, a vote isn't always the best way to do things, especially in a debate scenario such as this. The way I see the battle happening is like this:

• Rosalina activates a Starman instantly using the method I described above.
• Palutena activates a Mega Laser instantly (plus the time it takes for aiming), which might reduce Rosalina to her small form, but the Starman would keep her alive even if she takes a hit.
• During the invincibility period, Rosalina uses the Lumas to regain her health via Health Mushrooms, create black holes, and the like.
• Palutena gets sucked into the black hole(s), which can be aided with Rosalina's force field telekinesis demonstrated on Mario if she tries to run away. Not even light (or the goddess thereof) can escape a black hole.
• If Rosalina runs out of invincibility before finishing Palutena off, she still has the Mega Mushroom or the Lucky Bell to grant her invincibility.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

As @Dryn pointed out, a vote isn't always the best way to do things, especially in a debate scenario such as this. The way I see the battle happening is like this:

• Rosalina activates a Starman instantly using the method I described above.
• Palutena activates a Mega Laser instantly (plus the time it takes for aiming), which might reduce Rosalina to her small form, but the Starman would keep her alive even if she takes a hit.
• During the invincibility period, Rosalina uses the Lumas to regain her health via Health Mushrooms, create black holes, and the like.
• Palutena gets sucked into the black hole(s), which can be aided with Rosalina's force field telekinesis demonstrated on Mario if she tries to run away. Not even light (or the goddess thereof) can escape a black hole.
• If Rosalina runs out of invincibility before finishing Palutena off, she still has the Mega Mushroom or the Lucky Bell to grant her invincibility.

Palutena can just escape Rosalina's forcefields using Warp, which teleports her to a random spot. Palutena can gain invincibility as well, but more times than Rosalina can.

 

[Munomario777]

Palutena can just escape Rosalina's forcefields using Warp, which teleports her to a random spot. Palutena can gain invincibility as well, but more times than Rosalina can.

Rosalina could create a black hole at the location of Palutena's Warp when she reappears, and Warp can only be used five times. Brief Invincibility only grants four five-second bursts of invincibility, whereas the Super Star lasts for ten seconds, the Mega Mushroom lasts for about twenty-five seconds, and the Lucky Bell's invincibility via statue form can be used an infinite amount of times, provided she doesn't get hit in between (the statue form wouldn't stop her from creating black holes, since in Galaxy and its sequel, Star Bits can be fired while performing any action). Rosalina only needs to use the invincibility items for a few of Palutena's attacks anyways (such as the four-use-only Mega Laser), since most of them can be negated by her force field shield.