Eight Melodies
Smash Journeyman
I think everybody in Brawl is back except for Snake (unfortunately), and Squirtle + Ivysaur.
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If he wasn't added in Brawl or asked to join in Melee, its plenty safe to assume his wanted level would have been in comparison to Master Chief. I'm sure people would support him but we all know without the push from Konami he wouldn't really be considered.Do not speak for everybody.
Yes, Snake has his detractors, yet he also has his supporters.
I did not even refer to the circumstances of his inclusion at all.If he wasn't added in Brawl or asked to join in Melee, its plenty safe to assume his wanted level would have been in comparison to Master Chief. I'm sure people would support him but we all know without the push from Konami he wouldn't really be considered.
I assume you use the word "we" as a collective term in reference to both the Snake detractors and the Bomberman fan-base (which I will get to in a moment's notice), because unless otherwise, you are again "speaking for everybody".His return would be an example of when a character truly denies another one entry since it is dealing with TP. Do we want him to return because he was a decent character in Smash? Yes. Do we want him to return if it means denying other notable TP characters that fill the role Sakurai himself says they should attain to? No.
Well yeah. While I wouldn't say they don't care about competitive players (because they really do this time), with how much they changed Falco going from Melee to Brawl, what I would say is they don't care about how the character was used. They are willing to change a character almost completely with absolutely no regard for the competitive scene, and if Falco is to return he would be undoubtedly even more distorted from what he were in Melee. Compared to another changing character like Luigi, at least his fundamentals have evolved and have not been morphed.That's a surprise? Falco's got a game up on Wolf and the competitive scene's in love with him.
I did not even refer to the circumstances of his inclusion at all.
Rather, in regards to your statement "we don't really want him", I responded the reality of the situation is Snake is a wanted character right now, not that he was a wanted character back then. Snake is not currently an expected character, but he is a wanted character. Had your statement been in past tense, as in "we have never asked for him in the first place" then it is understandable - nobody would have asked for him. But because it is in the present tense, you assume, currently, Snake is an unwanted character, when in fact the opposite holds true. By no means is Snake an expected character (at all), but he is still a wanted character.
Despite all this, why does it even matter? All that does matter, given the context of our discussion, is that Solid Snake is a character with a dedicated fan-base who desires to witness his return, which may or may not even happen.
I disagree to an extent that the inclusion of any character will limit another ones chances. With the inclusion of Rosalina, if they were going to include another Mario character I'm plenty sure they could. Its not solely because of her being included but rather only limiting the time to work on others and then balance them out. Only example I can think of is Melee with Marth/Roy. Granted he was a clone but it still didn't hinder the addition of another franchise character. (Tink is somebody I would consider truly late addition time crunching.)I assume you use the word "we" as a collective term in reference to both the Snake detractors and the Bomberman fan-base (which I will get to in a moment's notice), because unless otherwise, you are again "speaking for everybody".
First of all, the inclusion of any given character, especially within a respective series, would already deny another playable implementation (unless all the prime candidates are included, such as King Dedede and Meta Knight in Brawl) - e.g. Rosalina instead of Toad, the Villager instead of Tom Nook. This affects the entire roster selection process, not just only the concerning of third-party intellectual properties.
Secondly, given your self-imposed perception of qualified third-party characters in Sonic, Mega Man, Bomberman, Banjo Kazooie, and Geno (who are all, with the notable exception of Geno IMO, entirely deserving third-party properties) you must be referring to Snake denying Bomberman a character slot, since the former two are already included and the latter two may never be. While I am quite confident in saying there are those who would prefer Bomberman over Solid Snake, I am also equally confident in saying there are those (such as the anti-cut crowd and Snake mains) who would prefer Solid Snake to stay rather than have Bomberman replace him.
All in all, Snake still stands as the most uncertain character in terms of his return or departure.
I guess it's the same case. If it has the same outcome, it'll be a surprise to be sure, but I really doubt it. FE's a rising star, SF is losing its luster a bit, so that may be an impact too.Like how people had the knowledge/assumption that Ike was gonna be replaced by Chrom?
Your welcome, these results are more interesting then I originally thought they would be.I really like the idea of this poll.
Gives a better idea of the communities perceptions, pre-E3.
This is the internet. You're NEVER the only one. (Though you're likely one of the few.)So... am I the only one who thinks Squirtle and Ivysaur will be back?
YesSo... am I the only one who thinks Squirtle and Ivysaur will be back?
I don't think its a matter of who "deserves" it. Its a matter of whose more popular. Squirtle is probably dead in the water for sure due to Greninja. Jigglypuff? Questionable. Jigglypuff is no longer all that popular, and wasn't popular in Brawl either (plus was added very late to the game, indicating incredibly low priority). I think its incredibly possible Jiggly might be cut, but the likelihood is that she'd only get cut due to being low priority and not merely cut outright.Everybody assumes Jigglypuff and Mewtwo deserve more pull than Squirtle and Ivysaur. Its between all of them who determines the 6 reps
Why would Pokemon have six reps? o.O Especially when Mario and Zelda both only have five.Everybody assumes Jigglypuff and Mewtwo deserve more pull than Squirtle and Ivysaur. Its between all of them who determines the 6 reps
Pokemon already had six reps in Brawl.Why would Pokemon have six reps? o.O Especially when Mario and Zelda both only have five.
Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere, it would shatter the pattern of O12 status.Captain Falcon, Ness and Meta Knight (I reckon) will be added anyway, they just haven't been released yet.
I've also said before that R.O.B I hope is in (third best character) and Falco.
Jigglypuff has overstayed her welcome and will be glad when she is gone. I know she's been in the first game and many fans wil be upset to see her leave but many other people want Mewtwo more than Jigglypuff (imagine fighting Mewtwo with Jigglypuff in a pokemon battle though).
Six individual movesets, four slots on the character select screen. By that logic, Zelda's out-represented the Mario series as well(Link, Zelda/Sheik, TL, Ganondorf). Yet they still only have four slots. To make things nice and manageable. It's a pattern.Pokemon already had six reps in Brawl.
Six individual movesets counts because characters don't transform anymore. Its a perfectly valid argument. Same goes for Zelda. Especially since Zelda and Sheik are now separate, too.Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere, it would shatter the pattern of O12 status.
Six individual movesets, four slots on the character select screen. By that logic, Zelda's out-represented the Mario series as well(Link, Zelda/Sheik, TL, Ganondorf). Yet they still only have four slots. To make things nice and manageable. It's a pattern.
Right, now characters don't transform anymore, so they're truly individual. Which means SSB4 will have, for the Mario Series: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina. Zelda series will have: Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, TL. Pokemon series will have: Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff.Six individual movesets counts because characters don't transform anymore. Its a perfectly valid argument. Same goes for Zelda. Especially since Zelda and Sheik are now separate, too.
You don't know that for certain. Pokemon could still have 6 reps as it fits with the series and pokemon is hella popular. unless you own the game way before everyone else you're just making baseless assumptions.Right, now characters don't transform anymore, so they're truly individual. Which means SSB4 will have, for the Mario Series: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina. Zelda series will have: Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, TL. Pokemon series will have: Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff.
5/5/5. The pattern is there. And it's not unprecedented that series' can LOSE representatives. Mario, of all series, lost one from Melee to Brawl by ditching Doc. Which made it a clean 4/4/4 across the board.
Twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern.
Thank you. Exactly my point. Doesn't matter how many squares one franchise takes up. Each individual character still takes the same amount of development time (except in the case of clones, and there were no Pokemon clones last time).You know how it is guys, we could have a Pokemon Trainer that switches between all 718 Pokemon all with unique, individualized movesets, but as long as it only takes up one square in the CSS the universe is in balance.
You know how it is guys, we could have a Pokemon Trainer that switches between all 718 Pokemon all with unique, individualized movesets, but as long as it only takes up one square in the CSS the universe is in balance.
Then why is it important that each character now be separate? The character screen's current method of selecting whether to start as Zelda or Sheik certainly sufficed for those who wished to do so. Same with PKMN trainer. If they were TRULY their own unique character, why didn't they have their OWN character spot on the screen to begin with? Why bundle them together? The pattern holds throughout all of the franchise. O12 status, another pattern, holds throughout the entire franchise. Do we discount O12 as well, flinging that away as baseless? We argue with shadows and speculation. This is the closest thing to any hard evidence I've seen of the roster's makeup. I will admit its likely flimsy nature, but this is a clear and emergent pattern.Thank you. Exactly my point. Doesn't matter how many squares one franchise takes up. Each individual character still takes the same amount of development time (except in the case of clones, and there were no Pokemon clones last time).
Transforming into the other characters was part of their moveset. Now it is not.Then why is it important that each character now be separate? The character screen's current method of selecting whether to start as Zelda or Sheik certainly sufficed for those who wished to do so. Same with PKMN trainer. If they were TRULY their own unique character, why didn't they have their OWN character spot on the screen to begin with? Why bundle them together?
Which would suggest then that they weren't truly separate characters until now. Meaning the counts stand, and the pattern is unbroken.Transforming into the other characters was part of their moveset. Now it is not.
In the direct when character transformations were ruled out, Sakurai stated that "Players will be able to focus on one moveset now" or something along those lines. They've stated that a larger focus was put on balance this time, and it is much easier to balance one character than two in one.Then why is it important that each character now be separate? The character screen's current method of selecting whether to start as Zelda or Sheik certainly sufficed for those who wished to do so. Same with PKMN trainer. If they were TRULY their own unique character, why didn't they have their OWN character spot on the screen to begin with? Why bundle them together? The pattern holds throughout all of the franchise. O12 status, another pattern, holds throughout the entire franchise. Do we discount O12 as well, flinging that away as baseless? We argue with shadows and speculation. This is the closest thing to any hard evidence I've seen of the roster's makeup. I will admit its likely flimsy nature, but this is a clear and emergent pattern.
You're right, and that is a solid reason to break up combination characters. However, that explanation and the pattern holding are not mutually exclusive. Sakurai will not come out and say it at any point(at least not until he's ready to reveal the full roster itself), but he does seem to have a habit here.In the direct when character transformations were ruled out, Sakurai stated that "Players will be able to focus on one moveset now" or something along those lines. They've stated that a larger focus was put on balance this time, and it is much easier to balance one character than two in one.
So clearly he counts Skeik, ZSS, and the Pokemon as seperate characters.Based Sakurai said:There are 39 characters in the game this time around and just adding a few more wouldn't be enough to justify a new game in my opinion; I'd have to draw a line in the sand and have a new approach to make it worthwhile. As long as the fans enjoy it, though, that's what matters and in the distant future, I guess that might be something I have to consider.
Right, separate movesets. But again, why not have them independently selectable on the screen? You had to enter a special code to play as ZSS. You had to go out of your way to specify which of the Pokemon or which side of Zelda/Sheik you wanted to start as. Why not just save trouble and headaches and include them on the screen itself?Sorry for the double post, but Sakurai himself considers there to have been 39 characters in Brawl.
http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/4964/sakurai-cut-characters-from-smash-bros/
So clearly he counts Skeik, ZSS, and the Pokemon as seperate characters.
Sakurai counted them as separate characters, therefor they were separate characters regardless what you think.Which would suggest then that they weren't truly separate characters until now. Meaning the counts stand, and the pattern is unbroken.
I thought a user already answered this very same question. The transformation was a part of their move-set, it is a very simple notion to grasp. Sakurai has omitted this mechanic as he wants players to focus on one move-set. Choosing Sheik or a specific Pokemon was optional, it was not mandatory as you insinuated. Not only that, but in the case of Sheik and Pokemon Trainer you could select them on the screen itself. They shared a portrait, in case you had forgotten.Right, separate movesets. But again, why not have them independently selectable on the screen? You had to enter a special code to play as ZSS. You had to go out of your way to specify which of the Pokemon or which side of Zelda/Sheik you wanted to start as. Why not just save trouble and headaches and include them on the screen itself?