Who needs a cut characters thread, Who do YOU think will almost certainly be in the game?

[Eight Melodies]

I think everybody in Brawl is back except for Snake (unfortunately), and Squirtle + Ivysaur.

 

[Kind Dedede]

Do not speak for everybody.

Yes, Snake has his detractors, yet he also has his supporters.

If he wasn't added in Brawl or asked to join in Melee, its plenty safe to assume his wanted level would have been in comparison to Master Chief. I'm sure people would support him but we all know without the push from Konami he wouldn't really be considered.

I'm not speaking for everybody but I am talking realistically. Snake got lucky and it was a decent character in return, granted he was turned down quite a bit. His return would be an example of when a character truly denies another one entry since it is dealing with TP. Do we want him to return because he was a decent character in Smash? Yes. Do we want him to return if it means denying other notable TP characters that fill the role Sakurai himself says they should attain to? No.

 

[FinalStarmen]

If he wasn't added in Brawl or asked to join in Melee, its plenty safe to assume his wanted level would have been in comparison to Master Chief. I'm sure people would support him but we all know without the push from Konami he wouldn't really be considered.

I did not even refer to the circumstances of his inclusion at all.

Rather, in regards to your statement "we don't really want him", I responded the reality of the situation is Snake is a wanted character right now, not that he was a wanted character back then. Snake is not currently an expected character, but he is a wanted character. Had your statement been in past tense, as in "we have never asked for him in the first place" then it is understandable - nobody would have asked for him. But because it is in the present tense, you assume, currently, Snake is an unwanted character, when in fact the opposite holds true. By no means is Snake an expected character (at all), but he is still a wanted character.

Despite all this, why does it even matter? All that does matter, given the context of our discussion, is that Solid Snake is a character with a dedicated fan-base who desires to witness his return, which may or may not even happen.

His return would be an example of when a character truly denies another one entry since it is dealing with TP. Do we want him to return because he was a decent character in Smash? Yes. Do we want him to return if it means denying other notable TP characters that fill the role Sakurai himself says they should attain to? No.

I assume you use the word "we" as a collective term in reference to both the Snake detractors and the Bomberman fan-base (which I will get to in a moment's notice), because unless otherwise, you are again "speaking for everybody".

First of all, the inclusion of any given character, especially within a respective series, would already deny another playable implementation (unless all the prime candidates are included, such as King Dedede and Meta Knight in Brawl) - e.g. Rosalina instead of Toad, the Villager instead of Tom Nook. This affects the entire roster selection process, not just only the concerning of third-party intellectual properties.

Secondly, given your self-imposed perception of qualified third-party characters in Sonic, Mega Man, Bomberman, Banjo Kazooie, and Geno (who are all, with the notable exception of Geno IMO, entirely deserving third-party properties) you must be referring to Snake denying Bomberman a character slot, since the former two are already included and the latter two may never be. While I am quite confident in saying there are those who would prefer Bomberman over Solid Snake, I am also equally confident in saying there are those (such as the anti-cut crowd and Snake mains) who would prefer Solid Snake to stay rather than have Bomberman replace him.


All in all, Snake still stands as the most uncertain character in terms of his return or departure.

 

[Hong]

That's a surprise? Falco's got a game up on Wolf and the competitive scene's in love with him.

Well yeah. While I wouldn't say they don't care about competitive players (because they really do this time), with how much they changed Falco going from Melee to Brawl, what I would say is they don't care about how the character was used. They are willing to change a character almost completely with absolutely no regard for the competitive scene, and if Falco is to return he would be undoubtedly even more distorted from what he were in Melee. Compared to another changing character like Luigi, at least his fundamentals have evolved and have not been morphed.

Suppose it's subjective, but I would say Wolf has a greater contrast from the rest of the roster than Falco does, shine aside. I wouldn't say being in there for one game longer matters much, since it could simply be a case of the character concept not coming to fruition in one game's development and not an entry prior. A lot of better ideas spring up all the time.

 

[Kind Dedede]

I did not even refer to the circumstances of his inclusion at all.

Rather, in regards to your statement "we don't really want him", I responded the reality of the situation is Snake is a wanted character right now, not that he was a wanted character back then. Snake is not currently an expected character, but he is a wanted character. Had your statement been in past tense, as in "we have never asked for him in the first place" then it is understandable - nobody would have asked for him. But because it is in the present tense, you assume, currently, Snake is an unwanted character, when in fact the opposite holds true. By no means is Snake an expected character (at all), but he is still a wanted character.

Despite all this, why does it even matter? All that does matter, given the context of our discussion, is that Solid Snake is a character with a dedicated fan-base who desires to witness his return, which may or may not even happen.

I'll agree Snake is a wanted character now because he was in the game. I'll admit I spoke a little too freely with the "We this", "we that". You clearly see where I was trying to come off with the original past tense wanted level vs the present which will save loads of debate. That's where I was coming from yet again spoke too freely.

To answer you question at the end: nope, doesn't matter one bit. He's already in and we'll have to wait to see what they'll do for him.

I assume you use the word "we" as a collective term in reference to both the Snake detractors and the Bomberman fan-base (which I will get to in a moment's notice), because unless otherwise, you are again "speaking for everybody".

First of all, the inclusion of any given character, especially within a respective series, would already deny another playable implementation (unless all the prime candidates are included, such as King Dedede and Meta Knight in Brawl) - e.g. Rosalina instead of Toad, the Villager instead of Tom Nook. This affects the entire roster selection process, not just only the concerning of third-party intellectual properties.

Secondly, given your self-imposed perception of qualified third-party characters in Sonic, Mega Man, Bomberman, Banjo Kazooie, and Geno (who are all, with the notable exception of Geno IMO, entirely deserving third-party properties) you must be referring to Snake denying Bomberman a character slot, since the former two are already included and the latter two may never be. While I am quite confident in saying there are those who would prefer Bomberman over Solid Snake, I am also equally confident in saying there are those (such as the anti-cut crowd and Snake mains) who would prefer Solid Snake to stay rather than have Bomberman replace him.

All in all, Snake still stands as the most uncertain character in terms of his return or departure.

I disagree to an extent that the inclusion of any character will limit another ones chances. With the inclusion of Rosalina, if they were going to include another Mario character I'm plenty sure they could. Its not solely because of her being included but rather only limiting the time to work on others and then balance them out. Only example I can think of is Melee with Marth/Roy. Granted he was a clone but it still didn't hinder the addition of another franchise character. (Tink is somebody I would consider truly late addition time crunching.)

The list was just a glimpse into who I felt deserved the most likely as far as fitting the criteria of a honorable TP in the Smash series. (Geno only gets included since he would possibly rep the Mario franchise, but once again a Hail Mary that won't happen.) As for the other 4, they all mean more to Nintendo than Snake ever did. If we can only have 2 or 3 TP, that's where "I come off" saying did we really want him, since indeed he is costing a character entry. Whether it be Bomberman, Chrono, Pacman or Sora, Snake essentially stood in their way.



Overall, glad you took the time to respond and hope I'm not overstepping myself as much. (Its the Internet, think I'm the only one blowing hot air out my ass lol.) I don't really mind Snake returning but wish it would go to somebody else who does "deserves" it more.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Like how people had the knowledge/assumption that Ike was gonna be replaced by Chrom?

I guess it's the same case. If it has the same outcome, it'll be a surprise to be sure, but I really doubt it. FE's a rising star, SF is losing its luster a bit, so that may be an impact too.

 

[NintenRob]

I really like the idea of this poll.
Gives a better idea of the communities perceptions, pre-E3.

Your welcome, these results are more interesting then I originally thought they would be.

 

[the smash nerd]

for Me + and no

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I'm glad the results of the poll are looking as reasonable as I expected.
I'm also of the firm belief that any character who debuted in Melee and came back for Brawl is not going anywhere. Their seniority gives them relevance within the series and the smash community as well. No good would come by pissing off fans and removing someone like Jigglypuff or Ice Climbers.

 

[JaidynReiman]

For me its:

I'm not fully confident in the rest.

 

[Non-Specific Action Hero]

My choices:,,,,,,,,,,, and . Not too sure on Lucas, Ivysaur and Squirtle.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I don't think we'll see many more characters in general. I think we've got one newcomer left to reveal(Chrom) and then that's that. Out of the veterans, here's who I think's slinking back in and why..

Captain Falcon: Goroh's assist trophy lends a great amount of credence to his return. O12 status and sheer popularity aren't hurting him either. It's not a surefire shot, but it more likely than unlikely.

Ness OR Lucas: If the Mother series gets a rep(likely, given the Franklin Badge's presence), it will only be one or the other, not both. They've got too much overlap and not enough diversity, especially since most regard Lucas as Ness-Plus. Ness's edge comes from O12 status.

Mr. Game & Watch: The original WTF. He's stuck around longer than most, and it would seem unlikely that he'd leave now. If anything, it'll be him OR R.O.B. I strongly doubt both. That said, G&W has the edge in my opinion.

Ganondorf: No real reason to cut him. He's the villain of one of Nintendo's most popular and oft-made series. Decloned and changed likely, but he's probably back.

Falco: The competitive scene would have a collective aneurysm should the blue bird not make it. Combined with SF's sun continuing to set, Falco will be the one to get in just due to popularity.

Ice Climbers: Rosalina's presence is both a plus AND a minus for these guys. Plus in that if the 3DS can handle her, it should be able to handle IC. Minus in that she treads on their territory a bit, though how much that matters remains to be seen.

Jigglypuff: Sorry Mewtwo fans. The puff has not just seniority, but favoritism as well given she's one of Japan's and Sakurai's most popular pokemon. O12 status and a straightforward and unique moveset and combat style just ice the cake to celebrate her return.

Wario: One of the most unique characters of a promising spin-off series that has arguably gotten more popular than his home series. Wario's quirks and charm make him impossible to overlook, and he's easily a unique addition with no need to be cut. Ashley as an AT with his symbol also doesn't hurt his chances in the slightest.

Meta Knight: Halberd is back, and it'd be very unusual for Meta Knight's ship to return to action without its captain at the helm. I'd say he's all but assured.

Comes up to about 40. 40? Wow, that's tiny. So who's gone then, and why?

R.O.B.: May a flight of angels sing thee to thy rest, o fallen icon. He may have saved gaming as we know it in the States, but WFT's presence as the 'peripheral mascot' this time around threatens his participation's chances greatly.

Squirtle/Ivysaur/Pokemon Trainer: All in the same bag, as far as I'm concerned. With Charizard, arguably the most important and iconic of the trio going solo, Greninja taking a slot now and being a water starter himself, and PT's whole transformation mechanic having been universally scrapped, these three have been put out to pasture.

Snake: I don't see it. Kojima might be a bit of a jerk sometimes, but his statement was pretty direct. I very strongly doubt Kojima would have allowed Sakurai free reign to work with Snake in future titles, especially since Konami would probably have his head for it. Sheik's new Burst Grenade further proves worrying for his chances.

Mewtwo: His playable days are done. Everyone may think he's a shoe-in, but he holds a massive black spot on his resume as the only non-cloned character in the history of Smash Brothers to have been cut. This is more important than most are willing to admit, given that even Toon Link made it in over him. If he is in Smash 4, I think it will be as a boss character.

Dr. Mario: There're holdouts for this guy? If anyone's really thinking he's coming back, they need to see a doctor themselves. Of the shrink kind.

Roy: With Chrom's imminent arrival, I don't think FE has the muster for four reps. Three's already pushing it in my opinion, but then I'm not a fan of FE(or anime swordsmen) to begin with. Ike getting Eruption doesn't help Roy's chances either.

Young Link: I'm not even dignifying this with an explanation beyond 'lol toon link get rekt scrubs'

Pichu: See Young Link, but add 'who wants pichu?'.

Wolf: It pains me to say it, but Wolf was one-and-done from the start. Identical FS, identical B-specials, there's nothing there to set him apart from the rest of the pack as far as getting the nod for playability. Falco's relying on the competitive scene to essentially push him through. Wolf has no such support, so I must sadly mark his personnel file as 'deceased'. Maybe he'll get in as a stage hazard on the Star Fox stage, but the roster's just not large enough to accommodate him as a playable character.

 

[NintenRob]

To the top.

 

[Swift Fox]

I voted on for being part of O12. The Smash Bros tradition will be destroyed if any one of O12 didn't make it in. for important rival/villain to their series (Actually "Mario Universe" for Wario where he is rival to Mario).

Also, lmao . I guarantee it.

Wait... you don't get it? I only guarantee on "lmao" part; LMAO @ .

Also this poll amazes me. Falco's getting more votes over Wolf who is important next to Fox? Wow. Guess it makes sense since this board is mostly competitive Smash players and Falco is considered good fighter. Perhaps most will vote him down when he wasn't that good fighter from the start or wished he's getting cut when he was going to get nerfed badly in SSB4.

Or I'm sure if Wolf was that better fighter than him he'll get lot of up votes about next to Wario and Meta Knight despite them being one time veteran.

 

[Tepig2000]

So... am I the only one who thinks Squirtle and Ivysaur will be back?

 

[JaidynReiman]

So... am I the only one who thinks Squirtle and Ivysaur will be back?

This is the internet. You're NEVER the only one. (Though you're likely one of the few.)

 

[Shadow Ganon]

It's very likely everyone from Brawl will return minus Squirtle and Ivysaur. Not entirely sure on Snake however. He's 50/50 for me because I feel they will only stick to one more third party than in Brawl. So it's either a newcomer or Snake. I don't think any series will get less reps than they did in Brawl, so if Lucas or Wolf don't return (which I doubt) then they'll be replaced. In my opinion, having Toon Link, Lucario and Ike return gives Lucas and Wolf a high chance.

 

[Kind Dedede]

So... am I the only one who thinks Squirtle and Ivysaur will be back?

Yes

 

[Banjodorf]

I think only Ivy and Squirtle have been cut.

 

[TheAnvil]

I'm yet to see any evidence that Squirtle and Ivysaur have been cut. Or that they're in any more danger of being cut than any other unconfirmed veteran aside from Wario, G&W and Meta Knight.

 

[Kind Dedede]

Everybody assumes Jigglypuff and Mewtwo deserve more pull than Squirtle and Ivysaur. Its between all of them who determines the 6 reps

 

[JaidynReiman]

Everybody assumes Jigglypuff and Mewtwo deserve more pull than Squirtle and Ivysaur. Its between all of them who determines the 6 reps

I don't think its a matter of who "deserves" it. Its a matter of whose more popular. Squirtle is probably dead in the water for sure due to Greninja. Jigglypuff? Questionable. Jigglypuff is no longer all that popular, and wasn't popular in Brawl either (plus was added very late to the game, indicating incredibly low priority). I think its incredibly possible Jiggly might be cut, but the likelihood is that she'd only get cut due to being low priority and not merely cut outright.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Everybody assumes Jigglypuff and Mewtwo deserve more pull than Squirtle and Ivysaur. Its between all of them who determines the 6 reps

Why would Pokemon have six reps? o.O Especially when Mario and Zelda both only have five.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Why would Pokemon have six reps? o.O Especially when Mario and Zelda both only have five.

Pokemon already had six reps in Brawl.

 

[Aerialfighter96]

Captain Falcon, Ness and Meta Knight (I reckon) will be added anyway, they just haven't been released yet.

I've also said before that R.O.B I hope is in (third best character) and Falco.

Jigglypuff has overstayed her welcome and will be glad when she is gone. I know she's been in the first game and many fans wil be upset to see her leave but many other people want Mewtwo more than Jigglypuff (imagine fighting Mewtwo with Jigglypuff in a pokemon battle though).

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Captain Falcon, Ness and Meta Knight (I reckon) will be added anyway, they just haven't been released yet.

I've also said before that R.O.B I hope is in (third best character) and Falco.

Jigglypuff has overstayed her welcome and will be glad when she is gone. I know she's been in the first game and many fans wil be upset to see her leave but many other people want Mewtwo more than Jigglypuff (imagine fighting Mewtwo with Jigglypuff in a pokemon battle though).

Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere, it would shatter the pattern of O12 status.

Pokemon already had six reps in Brawl.

Six individual movesets, four slots on the character select screen. By that logic, Zelda's out-represented the Mario series as well(Link, Zelda/Sheik, TL, Ganondorf). Yet they still only have four slots. To make things nice and manageable. It's a pattern.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere, it would shatter the pattern of O12 status.



Six individual movesets, four slots on the character select screen. By that logic, Zelda's out-represented the Mario series as well(Link, Zelda/Sheik, TL, Ganondorf). Yet they still only have four slots. To make things nice and manageable. It's a pattern.

Six individual movesets counts because characters don't transform anymore. Its a perfectly valid argument. Same goes for Zelda. Especially since Zelda and Sheik are now separate, too.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Six individual movesets counts because characters don't transform anymore. Its a perfectly valid argument. Same goes for Zelda. Especially since Zelda and Sheik are now separate, too.

Right, now characters don't transform anymore, so they're truly individual. Which means SSB4 will have, for the Mario Series: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina. Zelda series will have: Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, TL. Pokemon series will have: Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff.

5/5/5. The pattern is there. And it's not unprecedented that series' can LOSE representatives. Mario, of all series, lost one from Melee to Brawl by ditching Doc. Which made it a clean 4/4/4 across the board.

Twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern.

 

[praline]

I think everyone from brawl save for Lucas,Squirtle and Ivysaur will return plus mewtwo.

Right, now characters don't transform anymore, so they're truly individual. Which means SSB4 will have, for the Mario Series: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina. Zelda series will have: Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, TL. Pokemon series will have: Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff.

5/5/5. The pattern is there. And it's not unprecedented that series' can LOSE representatives. Mario, of all series, lost one from Melee to Brawl by ditching Doc. Which made it a clean 4/4/4 across the board.

Twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern.

You don't know that for certain. Pokemon could still have 6 reps as it fits with the series and pokemon is hella popular. unless you own the game way before everyone else you're just making baseless assumptions.

 

[JFM2796]

You know how it is guys, we could have a Pokemon Trainer that switches between all 718 Pokemon all with unique, individualized movesets, but as long as it only takes up one square in the CSS the universe is in balance.

 

[JaidynReiman]

You know how it is guys, we could have a Pokemon Trainer that switches between all 718 Pokemon all with unique, individualized movesets, but as long as it only takes up one square in the CSS the universe is in balance.

Thank you. Exactly my point. Doesn't matter how many squares one franchise takes up. Each individual character still takes the same amount of development time (except in the case of clones, and there were no Pokemon clones last time).

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

You know how it is guys, we could have a Pokemon Trainer that switches between all 718 Pokemon all with unique, individualized movesets, but as long as it only takes up one square in the CSS the universe is in balance.

Thank you. Exactly my point. Doesn't matter how many squares one franchise takes up. Each individual character still takes the same amount of development time (except in the case of clones, and there were no Pokemon clones last time).

Then why is it important that each character now be separate? The character screen's current method of selecting whether to start as Zelda or Sheik certainly sufficed for those who wished to do so. Same with PKMN trainer. If they were TRULY their own unique character, why didn't they have their OWN character spot on the screen to begin with? Why bundle them together? The pattern holds throughout all of the franchise. O12 status, another pattern, holds throughout the entire franchise. Do we discount O12 as well, flinging that away as baseless? We argue with shadows and speculation. This is the closest thing to any hard evidence I've seen of the roster's makeup. I will admit its likely flimsy nature, but this is a clear and emergent pattern.

 

[Saint Johns]

Then why is it important that each character now be separate? The character screen's current method of selecting whether to start as Zelda or Sheik certainly sufficed for those who wished to do so. Same with PKMN trainer. If they were TRULY their own unique character, why didn't they have their OWN character spot on the screen to begin with? Why bundle them together?

Transforming into the other characters was part of their moveset. Now it is not.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Transforming into the other characters was part of their moveset. Now it is not.

Which would suggest then that they weren't truly separate characters until now. Meaning the counts stand, and the pattern is unbroken.

 

[JFM2796]

Then why is it important that each character now be separate? The character screen's current method of selecting whether to start as Zelda or Sheik certainly sufficed for those who wished to do so. Same with PKMN trainer. If they were TRULY their own unique character, why didn't they have their OWN character spot on the screen to begin with? Why bundle them together? The pattern holds throughout all of the franchise. O12 status, another pattern, holds throughout the entire franchise. Do we discount O12 as well, flinging that away as baseless? We argue with shadows and speculation. This is the closest thing to any hard evidence I've seen of the roster's makeup. I will admit its likely flimsy nature, but this is a clear and emergent pattern.

In the direct when character transformations were ruled out, Sakurai stated that "Players will be able to focus on one moveset now" or something along those lines. They've stated that a larger focus was put on balance this time, and it is much easier to balance one character than two in one.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

In the direct when character transformations were ruled out, Sakurai stated that "Players will be able to focus on one moveset now" or something along those lines. They've stated that a larger focus was put on balance this time, and it is much easier to balance one character than two in one.

You're right, and that is a solid reason to break up combination characters. However, that explanation and the pattern holding are not mutually exclusive. Sakurai will not come out and say it at any point(at least not until he's ready to reveal the full roster itself), but he does seem to have a habit here.

 

[JFM2796]

Sorry for the double post, but Sakurai himself considers there to have been 39 characters in Brawl.

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/4964/sakurai-cut-characters-from-smash-bros/

There are 39 characters in the game this time around and just adding a few more wouldn't be enough to justify a new game in my opinion; I'd have to draw a line in the sand and have a new approach to make it worthwhile. As long as the fans enjoy it, though, that's what matters and in the distant future, I guess that might be something I have to consider.

So clearly he counts Skeik, ZSS, and the Pokemon as seperate characters.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Sorry for the double post, but Sakurai himself considers there to have been 39 characters in Brawl.

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/4964/sakurai-cut-characters-from-smash-bros/



So clearly he counts Skeik, ZSS, and the Pokemon as seperate characters.

Right, separate movesets. But again, why not have them independently selectable on the screen? You had to enter a special code to play as ZSS. You had to go out of your way to specify which of the Pokemon or which side of Zelda/Sheik you wanted to start as. Why not just save trouble and headaches and include them on the screen itself?

 

[praline]

Which would suggest then that they weren't truly separate characters until now. Meaning the counts stand, and the pattern is unbroken.

Sakurai counted them as separate characters, therefor they were separate characters regardless what you think.

 

[Morbi]

Right, separate movesets. But again, why not have them independently selectable on the screen? You had to enter a special code to play as ZSS. You had to go out of your way to specify which of the Pokemon or which side of Zelda/Sheik you wanted to start as. Why not just save trouble and headaches and include them on the screen itself?

I thought a user already answered this very same question. The transformation was a part of their move-set, it is a very simple notion to grasp. Sakurai has omitted this mechanic as he wants players to focus on one move-set. Choosing Sheik or a specific Pokemon was optional, it was not mandatory as you insinuated. Not only that, but in the case of Sheik and Pokemon Trainer you could select them on the screen itself. They shared a portrait, in case you had forgotten.

Zero-Suit Samus was different as she was introduced in Brawl (yet Samus was in 64, and Melee). I do agree that she should have been select-able, but she was not necessarily a transformation character. Or at least not in the traditional way.